Think Trump was crude? The Founding Fathers were just as bad

[rooster59]

Think Trump was crude? The Founding Fathers were just as bad

BETH J. HARPAZ, Associated Press


NEW YORK (AP) — You could say politics has reached a new low with the "small hands" remarks from the Republican debate.

But the exchange over the size of Donald Trump's, um, hands is merely the most recent vulgarity in American politics. The history of crude remarks goes back to the Founding Fathers.

In the 18th century, John Adams called Alexander Hamilton a "bastard brat" and wrote that Hamilton had "a superabundance of secretions which he could not find whores enough to draw off," according to historian Ron Chernow.

One difference between then and now: "These were words written or spoken in private, not in public," said Chernow, whose Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Alexander Hamilton helped inspire the hit Broadway musical "Hamilton." (Chernow says the comments were quoted in letters that survived the centuries.)

In the 1880s, rumors of Grover Cleveland's out-of-wedlock child led to a song from his Republican opponents: "Ma, ma, where's my pa?" When Cleveland won the presidency, the response came: "Gone to the White House, ha ha ha!"

"Old-fashioned American politics was full of those kinds of vile comments," said Arnold Shober, who teaches government at Lawrence University in Appleton, Wisconsin. "We've kind of lost that over the last 70 years, and I think it's just coming back."

Not that 20th century politicians shied away from vulgarities. Here's President Bill Clinton describing his 1970s El Camino pickup truck: "I had Astroturf in the back. You don't want to know why, but I did."

And Clinton's Secretary of State Madeleine Albright proved that she could talk dirty when she said: "This is not cojones. This is cowardice," after Cuba shot down Cuban-American exiles flying civilian planes.

Fast-forward to the Republican presidential campaign. A week ago, Sen. Marco Rubio, talking about Trump, said: "And you know what they say about men with small hands." In Thursday's GOP debate, Trump said of his hands: "If they are small, something else must be small. I guarantee you there is no problem."

Trump also has called Rubio "little Marco."

Sex therapist Judy Kuriansky said sex talk among men "is their way of comparing themselves and evaluating their influence and their power over each other. Certainly that was the allusion" at the debate.

"Everything is related to potency and power in direct relationship to size," she added. "I'm taller than you and my penis is bigger than you and therefore I'm more powerful than you."

What do voters think? Those who like Trump seem to give it a pass. Those who don't are disgusted.

"There's too much political correctness," said Trump supporter Carol Ebright at a Trump rally in Cadillac, Michigan, on Friday. "I want to see the 'Get things done!' not the 'Did you hear what he said?'" She carried a sign that said: "The silent majority stands with Trump."

But Amy Woody, a self-described moderate-to-liberal voter from eastern Tennessee, said Trump's crude language is "completely inappropriate."

"I have extremely thick skin," said Woody, who spent 16 years in the U.S. Air Force in squadrons that were typically less than 20 percent female. "I served in the military for a long time. We probably joked much more inappropriately than your standard workplace. It's not done with any malice or disrespect. Male, female, it doesn't matter. You all just wear a uniform. We all dish out the same comments to each other."

But in a presidential campaign, she said, "it's tacky and trashy, and I think all politicians, especially someone running for president, should have at least a trace of class and dignity."

Just because Trump can get away with it, though, doesn't mean the rest of us can. Using crude language or mocking others in the workplace can get you reprimanded, fired or sued.

"That type of comment in the workplace could be viewed as offensive and creating a hostile work environment," said Richard Corenthal, a labor and employment lawyer with Meyer Suozzi English & Klein in New York. "An employer may be liable if put on notice about these types of comments and if they allow them to continue."

Whether legal or not, whether appropriate or not, one thing is clear: Trump's comments don't represent some grand fall in decorum. Political mudslinging has gone on for centuries and our tolerance for vulgarities has built up over time.

"Politics has emerged as essentially a reality TV show, and that's why Trump is able to use it so deftly: He understands the format. He built his campaign around it," said Andrew Ricci, vice president of Levick, a Washington, D.C. public relations firm.

At the New York State Republican convention in Buffalo, Friday, Pamela Helming, town supervisor of Canandaigua, New York, worried that the GOP candidates' bickering "is just going to turn people off and we're not going to see the voters turn out."

She added: "Some of the crude comments, you expect some bickering, some negativity, but I do believe they've crossed a line."

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-03-05

[khwaibah]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

Edited March 5, 2016 by khwaibah

[grumpyoldman]

Correct, who needs to watch the Republican debates when you have "Life with Caitlin" or some other Kardashian reality nightmare to numb your brain.

Watching Trump is just the same, it's pathetic reality TV politics, the lowest it's ever been and this lady excusing the behavior as o.k. because founding fathers were "just as bad" is a super sad commentary. It's not o.k. for grown men to act like juveniles, grown men hoping to be President, the GOP is basically the Three Stooges with Trump as Moe.

Hopefully the result will be the advent of more parties.

Edited March 5, 2016 by grumpyoldman

[Badbanker]

Sadly there are many in the US who think the sort exchange that takes place between the Republican front runners is actually real and normal acceptable discussion!

[AlexRRR]

Awww your not the only nation on earth with circus performers lobbying for head of state, just take a look in Australia, we had Rudd vs Gillard show now we got Abbot of Costello fame doing a number on the guy Malcolm who unseated him as PM for being just plain terrible....but do you think he gets it? nooooooo.

[craigt3365]

Sadly there are many in the US who think the sort exchange that takes place between the Republican front runners is actually real and normal acceptable discussion!

And sadly, the same is true for many other countries around the world.

[phantomfiddler]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

Aptly named, khwaibah, but I think the british, being more on the intellectual side, came out best with the separation

[Baerboxer]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

Yep and then replaced a tyrannical ruler with a democracy. Only not for the Native Americans, Blacks and poor people.

[Jingthing]

Trump does not belong.

In the same sentence as John Adams and Alexander Hamilton

[arjunadawn]

...disgusting manner of communicating between adults in the room. However, what has come to be the modern linca franca of political language- BS- is equally proven unfit for the task. The modern diplomatic parlance of lies, deceit, 1/2 truths, no meaning, outright lies, innuendo, sound bites, and disassembling has left Americans somewhat refreshed when a man in the image of a disgruntled curmudgeon says what is actually on his mind. Why? Because we all know couched in the language of the status quo this nation is surely dying.

If Trump's speech is the polar opposite of what would be desired instead- the status quo- I say more of it. Its the current mousey language of liars and deceivers and betrayers and insurgents and the seditious that have brought us to this day, not Trump. Trump is a symptom, only an ill patient would confuse him for the disease.

[elgordo38]

Correct, who needs to watch the Republican debates when you have "Life with Caitlin" or some other Kardashian reality nightmare to numb your brain.

Watching Trump is just the same, it's pathetic reality TV politics, the lowest it's ever been and this lady excusing the behavior as o.k. because founding fathers were "just as bad" is a super sad commentary. It's not o.k. for grown men to act like juveniles, grown men hoping to be President, the GOP is basically the Three Stooges with Trump as Moe.

Hopefully the result will be the advent of more parties.

The establishment will not allow more parties. They would have to grease more palms and have less income for themselves.

[stillbornagain]

Because we all know couched in the language of the status quo this nation is surely dying.

Speak for yourself.

[sirineou]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

Study your history dear sir. they did not tell them to Fork Off, they told them to go Blip them selves.

[willyumiii]

No sex scandals or even sex talk for the past seven years from our President.

We have been fortunate to have an educated man in office who defines class and good manners.

Those hoping to get the redneck trailer trash vote..talk the talk.

Good Luck America!

[GinBoy2]

We seem to have the ability in our system to oscillate between intellect and buffoon.

Like him or hate him, Obama is an intellect. GW, well not so much.

The beauty of the system is of course that regardless of who, buffoon or intellect, is in the White House, they can actually do very little with Congress.

So we hand wring endlessly, but I fear regardless nothing really changes

[Saan]

The US is not having a presidential election rather it is running the word's biggest IQ test which will be decided when we see who gets the key to the White House.

[MadDog2020]

And how many of you recall the other Clinton under oath talking about the cigar and Monica Lewinsky? That was reported by all the media.

Edited March 5, 2016 by MadDog2020

[canathai8]

I'm very surprised by Donald Trump's lack of physical fitness

Trump and Christie (Donald's sycophantic, brown-nosing, boot-licking lackey, standing behind Donald going - <deleted>??) look like twin baby elephants

Grovelling in the mud

Two peas in a pod

Trussed up in frumpy, ill-fitting suits for good measure

You can put an earring on a couple of pigs - but they're still pigs

And I feel a little sorry for Donald's wife - having to sexually service that lumpy megalomaniac - with concomitant ersatz hair, a yellowish facial complexion and greasy plastic hands

Trump that

[canathai8]

And how many of you recall the other Clinton under oath talking about the cigar and Monica Lewinsky? That was reported by all the media.

Two wrongs don't make a right, last time I checked

One may presume that Monica almost choked on Bill's Tool

Two - Two - Two Tools in one..

..Trump and his Sidekick Chris Christie

Christ Almighty - Save us.. if you will..

[arjunadawn]

Because we all know couched in the language of the status quo this nation is surely dying.

Speak for yourself.

Its a forum. People only speak for themselves; how astute. But thanks for inviting further points.

It is the "status quo" language of the Progressive train-wreck of the US that has word meanings muddled, up down, left right, in out, etc. It is the intellectual prison of the social space that has people measured, judged, and ostracized or applauded for toting not points of view but social engineering memes, talking points- agenda! In the modern US social space only approved language is acceptable, and only approved people can use approved words. A body of leftist forces pulls and chagrins and pushes and blackmails the whole into speaking in whispers and silencing any dissent. America under Progressive Stewardship is about as Orwellian as a State can get this side of 2am door kicking-in.

The leftist/socialist infiltration of the body politic in the US has rendered debate into a ballet where the choreography is entirely by agenda. People are sick of this. Like Trump or hate Trump, he has traction because people are sick of the way things are. Lets be clear: nearly all modern pathology in the US from its foreign policy of marrying islamic jihad to its woeful economics and outcome based domestic policy- all are the result of Progressivism and the obedience of the GOP as a lapdog.

[NovaBlue05]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

That's not knife

[Jingthing]

To answer, the OP. Yes, I think Trump is crude but what really bothers me is the Mussolini impression he's doing and that so many Americans are eating it up!

[donnybay]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

Them we invaded back with The Beatles and The Stones

[Publicus]

No one single Founder was loud of mouth or bigger than his country or the new Constitution they together wrote.

Trump is all mouth, all about Trump and campaigns without any attention to the Constitution.

The OP is among we who don't like the Trump tongue, however, it is extreme to compare Donald Trump to the Founders. There is no justification of it what so ever. The OP needs to reject the Trump tongue rather than try to extend it falsely.

http://www.politicalresearch.org/2015/12/12/trumping-democracy-right-wing-populism-fascism-and-the-case-for-action

http://www.politicalresearch.org/2015/04/23/profile-on-the-right-oathkeepers

Keep in mind the Founders chose to write nothing into the Constitution about political parties. Political parties self-created and have gone off on their own.

Trump and both institutional political parties have fallen into a rubbish pit, which is the central point in both the rhetoric and the candidates. Out front however has been the Republican party led by the lunar right.

John McCains selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate was the historic marker of a breakthrough that has opened the way for the Trumps, Caines, Santorums, Bachmanns, Forinas, Perrys, Sharptons, Jindals, and Carsons. All those among the Republican Establishment who went along with this insult to the Republic, all those apologists among the MSM and the punditocracy, all those who treated it as just another hilarious incident in the pageant of popular celebrity culture they all share in the blame. Indeed, one could go further and argue that all those who voted for Ms Palin in awareness of the risks that act posed to the national welfare, too, are accomplices in this wound to our democracy.

Setting aside partisanship when the stakes are so high is a civic duty.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/03/04/truth-and-fiction-in-the-age-of-trump

[Ulysses G.]

The best was when we Yanks told the Brits to FORK OFF.

Them we invaded back with The Beatles and The Stones

And Led Zeppelin. You certainly kicked our <deleted> musically.

[neverdie]

No shortage of freaks come out to play at election time.

Imagine, just for one moment, if there was a decent and intelligent candidate out there, okay, that's enough, back to this basket of loonies.

Sorry USA, you are doomed for another cluster <deleted!> of a president . End of.

[Yann55]

Quote : But in a presidential campaign, she said, "it's tacky and trashy, and I think all politicians, especially someone running for president, should have at least a trace of class and dignity."

So it's come to this ... voters are now begging for politicians to have 'at least a trace' of class and dignity. Having class and dignity being a thing of the past, all we're asking for nowadays is 'at least a trace' ... and even that seems difficult to achieve.

But let's not forget this : we get what we deserve. We get the religions we deserve, the culture we deserve, and the politicians we deserve.

[Yann55]

No sex scandals or even sex talk for the past seven years from our President.

We have been fortunate to have an educated man in office who defines class and good manners.

Those hoping to get the redneck trailer trash vote..talk the talk.

Good Luck America!

Perhaps that's why vulgarity is coming back with such a vengeance ... the pendulum effect ?

[lannarebirth]

No sex scandals or even sex talk for the past seven years from our President.

We have been fortunate to have an educated man in office who defines class and good manners.

Those hoping to get the redneck trailer trash vote..talk the talk.

Good Luck America!

Perhaps that's why vulgarity is coming back with such a vengeance ... the pendulum effect ?

Or it may be the institutions he had previously put so much faith in are becoming more frequently seen as hollow and self serving.

[MadDog2020]

And how many of you recall the other Clinton under oath talking about the cigar and Monica Lewinsky? That was reported by all the media.

Two wrongs don't make a right, last time I checked

One may presume that Monica almost choked on Bill's Tool

Two - Two - Two Tools in one..

..Trump and his Sidekick Chris Christie

Christ Almighty - Save us.. if you will..

We are not talking right or wrong. Simply indicating that this is NOT a Trump phenomenon.

Too many folks are saying that Trump is at fault for the state of things today. As the OP points out this has been happening for years and I'm pointing out that it has also happened in recent history.

Edited March 6, 2016 by MadDog2020