EgyptAir flight MS804 disappears from radar on flight from Paris to Cairo

[rooster59]

Searchers find body parts, seats, luggage from Egyptian jet

MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press
PAISLEY DODDS, Associated Press


CAIRO (AP) — Search crews found floating human remains, luggage and seats from the doomed EgyptAir jetliner Friday but face a potentially more complex task in locating bigger pieces of wreckage and the black boxes vital to determining why the plane plunged into the Mediterranean.

An aviation industry publication, meanwhile, reported that sensors detected smoke in a lavatory, suggesting a fire onboard before the aircraft went down.

Looking for clues to whether terrorists brought down EgyptAir Flight 804 and its 66 people aboard, investigators pored over the passenger list and questioned ground crew members at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris, where the plane took off.

The Airbus A320 had been cruising normally in clear skies on a nighttime flight to Cairo early Thursday when it suddenly lurched left, then right, spun all the way around and plummeted 38,000 feet (11,582.4 meters) into the sea, never issuing a distress signal.

In Egypt, home to 30 of the victims, grieving families and friends wondered if their loved ones would ever be recovered. Many gathered in mosques for Salat al-Ghaib, or "prayers for the absent," held for the dead whose bodies have not been found.

"This is what is ripping our hearts apart, when we think about it. When someone you love so much dies, at least you have a body to bury. But we have no body until now," said Sherif al-Metanawi, a childhood friend of the pilot, Mohammed Shoukair.

Egyptian authorities said they believe terrorism is a more likely explanation than equipment failure, and some aviation experts have said the erratic flight suggests a bomb blast or a struggle in the cockpit. But so far no hard evidence has emerged.

No militant group has claimed to have brought down the aircraft. That is a contrast to the downing of a Russian jet in October over Egypt's Sinai Peninsula that killed 224 people. In that case, the Islamic State group's branch in Sinai issued a claim of responsibility within hours. On Friday, IS issued a statement on clashes with the Egyptian military in Sinai, but nothing about the plane.

Three European security officials said the passenger manifest for Flight 804 contained no names on terrorism watch lists. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the investigation. The manifest was leaked online and has not been verified by the airline.

Further checks are being conducted on relatives of the passengers.

French aviation investigators have begun to check and question all baggage handlers, maintenance workers, gate agents and other ground crew members at De Gaulle Airport who had a direct or indirect link to the plane before it took off, according to a French judicial official. The official was not authorized to discuss the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity.

Experts said answers will come only with an examination of the wreckage and the plane's cockpit voice and flight data recorders, commonly known as black boxes.

A possible cause could have been a fire, The Aviation Herald, a website that covers the civil aviation industry, reported Friday.

The publication cited information transmitted through the plane's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, which transmits data from the plane to the ground in the form of a series of messages. Those messages showed that smoke was detected in the plane's lavatory near the cockpit, according to the report.

A French Navy patrol boat left the port of Toulon on Friday with sonar that can pick up the underwater "pings" emitted by the recorders. But it will take the vessel two or three days to reach the search zone.

Ships and planes from Egypt, Greece, Britain, France, the United States and Cyprus have taken part in the search for what's left of Flight 804, scouring the waters roughly halfway between the Greek island of Crete and the Egyptian coast.

The waters in the area are 8,000 to 10,000 feet deep (2,440 to 3,050 meters), and the pings can be detected up to a depth of 20,000 feet (6 kilometers).

"Its batteries allow it to transmit for 30 days," Athanassios Binis, head of Greece's aviation accident investigation agency, said on state TV. Once a vessel detects the recorders, "the next step would be to pinpoint it and go down with special equipment to recover it."

Egyptian searchers found the first debris from the crash around 180 miles (290 kilometers) north of the Egyptian coastal city of Alexandria. Civil Aviation Minister Sherif Fathi informed relatives there were no survivors, the Al-Masry Al-Youm newspaper said.

The crash has struck a demoralizing blow to Egypt. The economy has been gutted by years of turmoil since the 2011 overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak, and the Russian plane crash caused a new plunge in tourism, one of the country's main money makers.

Amid fears that a security lapse in Paris may have led to the tragedy, France's junior minister for transport, Alain Vidalies, defended security at De Gaulle Airport, saying staff badges are revoked if there is the slightest doubt.

French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault asserted on French television that there is "absolutely no indication" of what caused the crash.

The pilot, Shoukair, was experienced, with 6,275 flying hours, and co-pilot Ahmed Assem had clocked 2,101, officials said.

A terror analyst who is in contact with members of the Islamic State group and other jihadist groups said there have been "no credible or even semi-credible" claims of responsibility for the tragedy.

Shiraz Maher at the International Center for the Study of Radicalisation in London said the Islamic State issued a 20-minute video Thursday about its plans to conquer India.

"If they had been involved in the crash," he said, "it would be very odd for them to have sent that video rather than boasting of the crash."

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-05-21

[Class C]

Could a small weaponised drone bring down an airliner ?

Does anyone know ?

[PETERTHEEATER]

Could a small weaponised drone bring down an airliner ?

Does anyone know ?

A proper fixed-wing military drone. yes, but if you mean a quad copter type then lifting a payload and navigating it to that height on an interception would be impossible.

[Chicog]

Now they are saying that ACARS reported smoke in a toilet and in the avionics bay before the plane went down.

So we still don't know if it was a terrorist act.

[ravip]

Now they are saying that ACARS reported smoke in a toilet and in the avionics bay before the plane went down.

So we still don't know if it was a terrorist act.

Aparently the black box had been found. So why speculate anymore?

[thaihome]

Now they are saying that ACARS reported smoke in a toilet and in the avionics bay before the plane went down.

So we still don't know if it was a terrorist act.

Aparently the black box had been found. So why speculate anymore?

It's some 3,000 meters deep in that area, at best they have heard the pings from the boxes. That is the first step, but it will likely be days before they get an ROV down to them.

TH

[Mosha]

BBC says they are still searching for the boxes. Several scars warnings, from fires to a loose cockpit window. I wonder if that's why the plane descended rapidly?

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[lvr181]

I think the cause was............ummmm hang about - lets see what the "black boxes" have to offer first.

Edit: A methane explosion in toilet

Edited May 21, 2016 by lvr181

[Mosha]

I think the cause was............ummmm hang about - lets see what the "black boxes" have to offer first.

Edit: A methane explosion in toilet

Not funny.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[Mosha]

At first I was thinking terrorism, but no one is claiming blame. Given the scars stuff, could this just be a failure in the avionics bay that caused a fire and the destruction of the aircraft?

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[brewsterbudgen]

Now they are saying that ACARS reported smoke in a toilet and in the avionics bay before the plane went down.

So we still don't know if it was a terrorist act.

Sounds very similar to the Swissair disaster. The likes of Trump will look very stupid if it turns out to be non-terrorist related.

[lvr181]

I think the cause was............ummmm hang about - lets see what the "black boxes" have to offer first.

Edit: A methane explosion in toilet

Not funny.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

Of course it is not funny - not meant to be. But why all the speculation about a fire in the toilet? No sprinkler system or cabin crew to extinguish it? Hardly likely to bring a plane crashing down in the manner suggested.

Just lighten up and widen ur thinking a little please.

[Grouse]

My son is an Airbus driver 319/320/321

From what he says the level of systems redundancy is truely amazing. 5 separate power generation systems. Two flight augmentation computers (FACS), Multiple power distribution buses

Doesn't sound innocent to me

If it is some of these people again there will be a reaction......

Worried

[Mosha]

IS claimed the Russian jet after 10 hours, this one has no one as yet.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[rooster59]

EgyptAir flight: ‘smoke detected in cabin’ before plane disappeared



Smoke was detected in the cabin in the final moments before EgyptAir flight MS804 crashed, according to reports on The Aviation Herald.

The air industry website mentions three independent sources which passed on data from the Airbus 320’s real-time reporting service ACARS. It indicated smoke in the toilet, followed by the electronics before communications were lost. Though experts cautioned that this does not necessarily mean a fire occurred.

Adding to the mystery, a large oil slick has been spotted by European Space Agency satellites in the area where the plane disappeared with 66 people aboard, though there is no confirmation it is from the flight.

The search is now focused on finding the black box flight recorders after the Egyptian navy said debris had been found in the Mediterranean. French teams scouring the 130 nautical miles of search area pointed out the difficulties of the task.

“In this area we see a lot of debris but we don’t know if it is linked to the airplane that disappeared or if it was already there before,” explained one officer.

With the most important part of the puzzle missing, experts say the new clues do not point to a clear explanation. While Egypt suspects a terror attack, a mechanical fault cannot be ruled out.

-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2016-05-21

[rooster59]

EgyptAir MS804: First images of recovered debris released



The hunt for missing EgyptAir flight MS804 intensified on Saturday as Egypt’s military released a video of the first debris found during its search in the Mediterranean Sea.

Life jackets, parts of seats and luggage were among items on display – the search has also reportedly recovered body parts.

For the moment, It remains unclear whether the aircraft’s all important black boxes’ have been located, despite some reports claiming they have.

Egypt and five other countries continue to search a wide area in the eastern Mediterranean where the plane plunged killing all 66 passengers and crew on board during its scheduled flight from Paris to Cairo.

Investigators have confirmed smoke was detected in various parts of the Airbus 320’s cabin a few minutes before it disappeared.

The cause of the crash still remains a mystery, however, with France’s Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault saying on Saturday ‘‘all hypothesis were being examined and none favoured.’‘

Despite theories that a bomb may have been smuggled on board, no terrorist group has so far claimed responsibility.

-- (c) Copyright Euronews 2016-05-21

[uksomchai]

Funny there has been NO mention of the naval exercise they are holding at the very same time and the very same place as this plane falls from the sky ?

Operation Phoenix Express 2016 link here

http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=94747

I just find the fact this has been totally ignored and never mentioned to be rather unusual to say the least

A rogue missile fired in error seems better than some of the crap they are offering up as reasons for its disappearance

The latest one that a fire took the plane down is hard to believe. I find it hard to believe a fire could take the plane down so fast there wasn't time to get a mayday fired off.

[taony]

Then why did it take so long to find debris?

The BBC is reporting that thus particular plane had a problem with overheating engine last year.

[lkv]

The debris video. Thought I would post it.

https://youtu.be/QRZlfCIb8qE

[IAMHERE]

Could a small weaponised drone bring down an airliner ?

Does anyone know ?

If it were flown inside the aircraft, for sure. For a small weaponized drone to get near an airliner 37,000 feet up would be quite a feat.

I wonder if some Egyptian was smoking in the toilet set the whole plane on fire.

[lkv]

Could a small weaponised drone bring down an airliner ?

Does anyone know ?

If it were flown inside the aircraft, for sure. For a small weaponized drone to get near an airliner 37,000 feet up would be quite a feat.

I wonder if some Egyptian was smoking in the toilet set the whole plane on fire.

According to the ongoing discussion on Aviation Herald about the ACARS messages, the lavatory smoke message was in conjunction with the avionics smoke message, so supposedly the fire has not started in the toilet but below the cockpit. Bloomberg i think sums it up quite well, although a small bomb placed in the avionics could have triggered the fire as well I guess. Or an electrical malfunction.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-05-21/egyptair-flight-messages-may-signal-downing-not-caused-by-bomb

According to the comments on the same mentioned website (Avherald), had it been some other plane/drone/rocket/whatever, it would have triggered different messages than these ones.

Or so they say, I'm not an expert

Edited May 21, 2016 by lkv

[balo]

I think people should stop calling this a terror attack now , it doesnt sound like a bomb to me. Probably a major malfunction. Airbus could get in trouble here , A-320 is a very popular plane.

Edited May 21, 2016 by balo

[Mosha]

What seems to be puzzling"experts" according to one on BBC, is if it was a bomb events unfolded too slowly. Too quickly if it was a fire.

Sent from my SMART_4G_Speedy_5inch using Tapatalk

[coma]

Yes. "Professional" investigators are now leaning towards a fire. But why no distress signal. Could all the comms systems onboard go down at once just like that ? Are all the comms systems in just one part of the aircraft ? Any "real" pilots here that could shed light on the communication systems on this aircraft?

Yes. Waiting for the black box would be the the most logical thing to find out what really happened. But it is no where near as much fun and keyboard sleuthing. And TV and its advertising parters wouldn't get anywhere near as many hits.

[mcfish]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

[jaidam]

In a misguided effort to create social cohesion, and not to give ammo to Mr.Trump the truth may not come out about this crash. Time and time again in Europe when muslims engage in a broad spectrum of violent crime, the story is denied at every level. Let us remember that on Jan 1st in Cologne NYE had passed off peacefully according to police. That is just one example of totally lying in order to deny central and right wing groups the natural support they would have if the truth was told.

My call was this was a terror attack by the religion of peace. Obfuscation and general BS by mainstream media over the incident led me to this conclusion in a short time.

[rooster59]

Smoke, cockpit woes signal chaotic end for EgyptAir plane

RAPHAEL SATTER, Associated Press
HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press


CAIRO (AP) — Leaked flight data showing trouble in the cockpit and smoke in a plane lavatory are bringing into focus the chaotic final moments of EgyptAir Flight 804, including a three-minute period before contact was lost as alarms on the Airbus 320 screeched one after another.

Officials caution it's still too early to say what happened to the aircraft — France's foreign minister said Saturday that "all the hypotheses are being examined" — but mounting evidence points to a sudden, dramatic catastrophe that led to its crash into the eastern Mediterranean early Thursday.

The Egyptian military on Saturday released the first images of aircraft debris plucked from the sea, including personal items and damaged seats. Egypt is leading a multi-nation effort to search for the plane's black boxes — the flight data and cockpit voice recorders — and other clues that could help explain its sudden plunge into the sea.

"If they lost the aircraft within three minutes that's very, very quick," said aviation security expert Philip Baum. "They were dealing with an extremely serious incident."

Authorities say the plane lurched left, then right, spun all the way around and plummeted 38,000 feet (11,582 meters) into the sea — never issuing a distress call.

The Facebook page of the chief spokesman for Egypt's military showed the first photographs of debris from the plane, shredded remains of plane seats, life jackets — one seemingly undamaged — and a scrap of cloth that might be part of a baby's purple-and-pink blanket.

The spokesman, Brig-Gen. Mohammed Samir, later posted a video showing what appeared to be a piece of blue carpet, seat belts, a shoe and a white handbag. The clip opened with aerial footage of an unidentified navy ship followed by a speedboat heading toward floating debris.

Flight 804 left from Paris' Charles de Gaulle Airport on Wednesday night en route to Cairo with 66 people aboard. The first available audio from the doomed flight indicates that all was routine as the pilot checked in with air traffic controllers in Zurich, Switzerland, around midnight, before being handed over to Italian air traffic controllers in Padua (Padova): Pilot — "This is 0-7-2-5 Padova control. (Unintelligible) 8-0-4. Thank you so much. Good day er good night."

The communication, taken from liveatc.net which provides live air traffic control broadcasts from around the world, occurred about 2 ½ hours before Greek air traffic controllers lost contact with the plane.

Greek officials say at 2:24 a.m. local time the flight entered the Athens sector of Greek airspace. Twenty-four minutes later, controllers chatted with the pilot, who appeared to be in good spirits.

In Greek, the pilot quipped: "Thank you."

At 3:12 a.m., the plane passed over the Greek island of Kasos before heading into the eastern Mediterranean, according to flight data maintained by FlightRadar24.

Less than 15 minutes later, about midway between Greece and Egypt, a sensor detected smoke in a lavatory and a fault in two of the plane's cockpit windows, according to leaked flight data published by The Aviation Herald.

Messages like these "generally mean the start of a fire," said Sebastien Barthe, a spokesman for France's air accident investigation agency. But he warned against inferring too much more from the reading. "Everything else is pure conjecture."

At 3:27 a.m. Greek time, air traffic controllers in Athens attempted to contact the plane to hand over monitoring of the flight from Greek to Egyptian authorities, according to Greek officials. There was no response from the plane despite repeated calls, including on the emergency frequency. At the same time, a sensor detected that smoke had reached the aircraft's avionics, the network of computers and wires that control the plane, according to the leaked flight data.

Two minutes later, the aircraft reached Egyptian airspace. Alarms went off warning about the plane's autopilot and wing control systems, suggesting serious structural problems. Within seconds, the plane fell off the radar (about 2:30 a.m. Egyptian time, which is behind Greek summer time). Air traffic controllers in Cairo sought assistance from the Egyptian air force to track the missing plane — to no avail.

David Learmount, a widely respected aviation expert and editor of the authoritative Flightglobal magazine, said Aviation Herald's reported readings from the plane's Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System, or ACARS, suggested a quick-spreading fire.

On his website, Learmount wrote: "The question now is whether the fire that caused the smoke was the result of an electrical fault — for example a short-circuit caused by damaged wiring — or whether some form of explosive or incendiary device was used."

In the absence of a claim of responsibility, it's still unclear whether the crash was the result of a fault or an attack, Learmount wrote.

Egyptian aviation expert Hossam Elhamy Shaker said the presence of smoke on board alone does not solve the mystery.

"It just leads us into an area where smoke is a major contributor to the incident, either by destroying the aircraft's equipment or suffocating the pilots," he said.

Baum was skeptical that a fire alone was the reason the plane went down.

"Fires happen aboard aircraft, but they don't usually result in the destruction of the aircraft in three minutes," he said.

Some have wondered at the lack of a mayday signal, but Baum said that could make sense if the crew were unconscious or struggling to regain control of the aircraft.

Investigators have been poring over the plane's passenger list and questioning ground crew at Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport, where the airplane took off. Ships and planes from Britain, Cyprus, Egypt, France, Greece and the United States have taken part searching a wide area of sea 180 miles (290 kilometers) north of the Egyptian port city of Alexandria.

The waters in the area are 8,000 to 10,000 feet deep (2,440 to 3,050 meters). Pings from the plane's black boxes can be detected up to a depth of 20,000 feet (6 kilometers).

Egyptian authorities have said they believe terrorism is a more likely explanation than equipment failure, and some aviation experts say the erratic finale to the flight suggests a bomb blast or a struggle in the cockpit — though no evidence of that have emerged.

"All the hypotheses are being examined — none are being favored," French Foreign Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault told reporters Saturday after meeting with about 100 family members of the victims to express "our profound compassion" over the crash.

At Charles de Gaulle airport on Saturday, dozens of passengers — mostly Egyptians — queued up for the latest EgyptAir flight to Cairo. Checks were thorough but there were no overt signs of extra security in the waiting area. A French security team did walk through the plane's aisles, however, before the aircraft took off.

Whatever caused the aircraft to crash, the tragedy deepens Egypt's struggles to revive a battered economy. While the EgyptAir crash may not reflect directly on Egypt's airports — unlike a Russian jet bombed in October by the Islamic State group that took off from an Egyptian resort — the country's association with yet another air disaster will further damage tourism and the flow of foreign investment.

-- (c) Associated Press 2016-05-22

[Scott]

I was watching a news cast on television, and they reported that the strange circling motion was probably a result of the plane breaking apart.

[coma]

In a misguided effort to create social cohesion, and not to give ammo to Mr.Trump the truth may not come out about this crash. Time and time again in Europe when muslims engage in a broad spectrum of violent crime, the story is denied at every level. Let us remember that on Jan 1st in Cologne NYE had passed off peacefully according to police. That is just one example of totally lying in order to deny central and right wing groups the natural support they would have if the truth was told.

My call was this was a terror attack by the religion of peace. Obfuscation and general BS by mainstream media over the incident led me to this conclusion in a short time.

Mmmm! Where's the claim of responsibility though ?

At the beginning I too believed it to be the work of ISIS or an affiliate group. They put out a propaganda video just days before threatening to attack France again. Footage of an Air France jet was used in said video. That, coupled with the fact there was the Paris,Cairo,Egypt Air connection certainly rang alarm bells not just in my ears [and many other "keyboard warriors" alike], but I am sure it screamed terrorist attack to many governments and their respective, defence forces ,intelligence and law enforcement organisations also.

Edited May 22, 2016 by coma

[coma]

Pilots do not make an emergency call if the aircraft needs 100 % attention an there is nothing that ATC can do for them at 37000 ft. It must have been a very sudden outbreak of fire or the aircraft controls were so damaged they were trouble shooting like crazy and no time to call it in.

Really ? How odd. I thought making a call would be a priority and immediate at the first hint of something amiss. And something that would be drilled into a pilot during training so it is second nature to do so in such an event.

What does the flight deck crew on a airbus A320-232 consist of ? Two pilots obviously. But does it have an engineer on the flight deck also ?