Neon lights left on all night seen as possible cause in Chiang Rai school fire that killed 17

[The Deerhunter]

Makeshift ropes. Fire escape stairs perhaps? Sorry, not required or enforced in Thailand.

The fire escape door in my apartment in Pattaya has been locked with a massive padlock since I've moved in 18 months ago, despite numerous protests to the landlord. Just praying there won't be a fire!

Bolt cutters are cheap. Buy one big enough to do the job and either use it now, or keep it on a hook and string by your entry door. Right by your smoke alarm!!!!!!!!!

Edited May 24, 2016 by The Deerhunter

[The Deerhunter]

If my experiences are anything to go by I'm surprised there aren't more fires(or maybe there is eh?). On two occasions when living with my Thai (now ex) wife a cheap circuit breaker (a.c unit) started to overheat and I could smell the plastic. Electrician solution (talking to wife), put two pieces of wood behind the unit to allow air flow behind. My solution, NO WAY, replace with new top grade unit. Second was due to some animal (rat?) in the loft chewing cables. Electrician solution, electrical tape around chewed areas. My solution, examine for rodents etc. replace damage cables. Recently, very similar to the former but was the Mains circuit breaker. Electrician solution, similar to former. My solution, NO WAY, replace with new, 300 Baht. I am at a loss as to why electric components are given very little importance given their function. How many times have I seen, and still do see, completely unprotected appliances on the outside of dwellings and hanging lines that are likely to strangle you first before being electrocuted.

I watched a Hiab this morning unloading 16 concrete poles over the road from my home, on a relative's land, with the Hiab arm brushing the power cables. Yes brushing them, REALLY!! I stood well back.

Edited May 24, 2016 by The Deerhunter

[dieseldave1951]

we would, but obviously you have no understanding of neon lights they in them selves as stated by the apparent investigator do not give off heat, so there is a stupid knee jerk reaction before a proper thorough investigation has been carried out

and yes in our not so perfect countries we do have set fire rules enforced laws that are upheld by agencies who only aim is get justice for those wronged by others

but maybe your a troll ???????

Why can't you people let the kids and their families have their services and give the Thai authorities a chance to prove that they are capable of determining what caused this tragedy.

Horrible fires happen everywhere, including your precious and perfect home countries yet you heap scorn on the investigation before they have even had a chance to begin.

[masuk]

Not possible, neon light, no matter how bright or how close to the light's cover, can not ignite

a fire as it doesn't omit and heat that can be hot enough to melt plastic and start a fire....

keep looking, or is it another cover up in the making going on there?......

They probably mean FLOURESCENT light. These have electrical gear inside which can get hot and I've had one go off and set off the smoke alarms.

Another good reason to legislate for smoke alarms in sleeping quarters. AND annual renewal of the batteries.

[attrayant]

Not sure what kind of neon light could have been in use - maybe they meant a neon sign? They're popular decorations in western college dorms but I don't see impoverished Thai students dressing up their houses like that. But such signs have transformers that often get quite hot and deliver 10-15 thousand volts or more.

I've never seen a smoke alarm in anyone's house here. In one of my science classes I talk about electrical and fire safety and I always poll the students to see who has smoke alarms in their homes. In three years no student has ever admitted to owning one, and about two-thirds of the students had no idea that such a thing exists. When I ask the Thai teachers, they know about them but nobody has one. Why? "I've never had a fire". It's the same ignorant "logic" that anti-vaxxers use when they say "I've lived 50 years and never gotten sick, so why should I get vaccinated!?"

A fire extinguisher probably could have saved the day. But those cost money, don't they?

[Stray]

Not possible, neon light, no matter how bright or how close to the light's cover, can not ignite

a fire as it doesn't omit and heat that can be hot enough to melt plastic and start a fire....

keep looking, or is it another cover up in the making going on there?......

The tubes, of fluorescent lights, are relatively cool. However, the ballasts (transformers) and even the 'tombstones' (which the ends of the tubes fit into and are heated by the steel ends of the tubes) can run hot.

Have seen scorch marks on ceilings of houses (and within the metal cases) when replacing old fluorescent lighting units. This was NOT in Thailand. The potential for a fire from poorly/incorrectly installed/maintained lighting fixtures is possible.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Stray

[silent]

Sad, but another example why Thailand is still a 3rd world country and will be for a long time. Safety, is not in their beliefs.

Sad yes, but how many examples of similar occurrences in recent years in supposed first world countries would you like. First one in mind apparently because of a Government building manager allowing chairs (with highly flammable and toxic seats) by the elevators .............. (likely underneath the ashtray or to be used as one). I think they're being fined for combustible materials left in a public corridor, and maybe some question over the fire alarm inspections.

In two years all will be history until the next time.

[rwill]

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/fires/by-country/ Thailand is very low on the list.

[Bluespunk]

The cause of the fire is not as important as the cause of the deaths, i.e mismanagement, but we won't hear much about that.

The cause of death was locking them in from the outside.

[attrayant]

http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/fires/by-country/ Thailand is very low on the list.

Thai authorities should show this to the parents of the incinerated children when they give them the 2000 baht. I'm sure it'll help immensely.

[Caveat Emptor]

Please for once could they not wait before rushing into speculation.

A simple statement that it's too early to comment and this will be done after a full and extensive investigation has been completed would be appropriate.

Unfortunately officialdom here has to rush into comment to prove they're on top of the situation when often nothing could be further from the truth.

There's always the horrible potential that having made a definitive statement far too early on the facts will then be made to fit the erroneous conclusion to save face.

Excellent sentiments but, and there has to be a big BUT in there.

I shudder to think what the official findings will be if people have to be protected and various aspects of negligence ignored.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Caveat Emptor

[bbbbooboo]

"This tragedy was a result of ignorance, stupidity and pure irresponsible neglect".........I suggest this probably says it all

[grin]

We had a fluorescent fixture that was giving us problems ever since our house was built. Replacing starters and bulbs did not help as it would still fail intermittently. Then the last time after it failed I noticed that half of the the plastic lamp holder on one end had melted down since the previous time I had opened it up. When I removed the lamp holder from the metal fixture I discovered that one of the terminal screws had never been tightened and that the wire attached to it had always been loose. The screw was not even partially tightened. This is how it was delivered by the manufacturer of the fixture. This loose wire was enough to cause the plastic in the lamp holder to melt down. It's the wiring and not the fluorescent bulbs that can cause these problems.

Grin

[swerver]

Not possible, neon light, no matter how bright or how close to the light's cover, can not ignite

a fire as it doesn't omit and heat that can be hot enough to melt plastic and start a fire....

keep looking, or is it another cover up in the making going on there?......

I've measured 560V from a socket during a storm 20 kilometers away from our home - nothings surprises me with electrically instigated "failures" any more.

First wake up call for me was with our water heater in the shower room - zapping me after a storm from ~an arms length away, because of no proper grounding.

Homes, buildings in Thailand are predominantly two (2) wire. OUTLAWED in may countries DECADES ago - but not in Thailand in 2016 SAFE MONEY.

My home in Thailand designed in the West has of course three (3) wire system in steel CONDUIT.

Anyhow what difference does it make what Thais put up with, it is their lives. LOL in LOS.

[Stray]

Not possible, neon light, no matter how bright or how close to the light's cover, can not ignite

a fire as it doesn't omit and heat that can be hot enough to melt plastic and start a fire....

keep looking, or is it another cover up in the making going on there?......

I've measured 560V from a socket during a storm 20 kilometers away from our home - nothings surprises me with electrically instigated "failures" any more.

First wake up call for me was with our water heater in the shower room - zapping me after a storm from ~an arms length away, because of no proper grounding.

Homes, buildings in Thailand are predominantly two (2) wire. OUTLAWED in may countries DECADES ago - but not in Thailand in 2016 SAFE MONEY.

My home in Thailand designed in the West has of course three (3) wire system in steel CONDUIT.

Anyhow what difference does it make what Thais put up with, it is their lives. LOL in LOS.

Off topic question. Why did you use steel conduit for your Thai electrical installation?

[billd766]

It's all a matter of stinginess and adults who should be responsible having kiddie brains that never see danger. If they would've spent a few baht on smoke detectors, a few fire extinguishers and proper emergency exits probably nobody would be dead. Instead the boss pocketed the money and bought himself a new flat screen and air-con. Scum

RIP kids

Now I am 100% certain that you can back up and prove what you have just said.

Not only that but you will post the proof here on Thai Visa, as many social websites as you can find and also report the corruption to the police and all the relevant agencies.

Of course if you don't actually have any proof and the boss of the school finds out then you may be in for a whole world of trouble. Incidentally so would Thai Visa for posting it.

Try looking up libel online.

[Sydebolle]

Call it what you want - for me its carelessness all the way. Neither a (cold) neon tube nor its fitting could start a fire - this is <deleted>! I am absolutely sure that the word "fire drill" is completely unknown.

Due to the ghosts over the burnt dormitory the place will move, again no safety precautions and no fire drills; possibly a cheap piece of land just became available.

Thailands biggest enemy is its own citizen, corrupt institutions and hopeless ignorance on absolutely everything except nightlife, sanook and money - what a pity. If no involvement in starting the fire (which I hope) it will go down in history as carelessness against minors by complete ignorant guardians - may this haunt the latters life forever!

[slapout]

Which Boss is being referred to that would even consider a law suit for libel? I doubt that there is a single boss but several investors/ owners of this facility and even if its some Christian church backing this, I doubt they want the short coming that have been mentioned put out for public review.

I still think the entire staff should have been pressed into scrapping up the bodies and with todays number of facebook contributors, the world would see who was in positions of authority, thus who could have directly prevented this horror report.

Edited May 24, 2016 by slapout

[cardinalblue]

DDD-

Are you an unofficial or official apologist?

Why are you focused on the investigation? People are not criticizing the investigation but the complete and I mean complete lack of fire response procedures in place. Westerners come from the expectation of fire prevention fire response fire training and due diligence takes place in school buildings and other important buildings that house people overnight....

People are not pissed b/c there was a fire but the total lack of thinking about the consequences if there was a fire.

As to the fire investigation, if they were smart, they would have people from outside the culture who are trained in fire protocol, procedures, response and objectively investigate what happened and most importantly come up with recommendations and follow-up action plans....

The above won't happen b/c it would open up a huge can of worms and to the Thais shame and embarrass them and Thai authorities would be more concerned about their image being tainted than accepting and acting upon an objective report/findings....One sees this over and over again in LOS and frustration mounts from outsiders..

Personally, I don't care anymore as I know this is a dog eat dog non-compliant stagnant society where no regard is given to the quality or betterment of people's lives and the communities that they reside....

[dageurreotype]

Bearing in mind most Thais leave strip lights on all night because they're afraid of ghosts, an electrical fault plausible.

[taharkin]

"No definitive cause of the fire has yet been found but the most likely answer is that a plastic casing of a ground floor neon light in an activity room melted and dripped onto four piles of clothes below that then ignited...One dormitory staff member was having a shower nearby when the fire took hold. Two maids had already gone home. Of two teaching assistants one was on holiday and another - Suchada Sase-mua. 23 - was sleeping with the children."

So typical. Divert the blame and responsibility away from the real culprits. Were the fire alarms and smoke detectors also on vacation? Did everyone forget what they were taught to do during fire drills? Did the fire retardant materials of which the building was constructed somehow fail? None of these safety measures were in place in the first place. So, how could they have the chance to fail.

This tragedy was a result of ignorance, stupidity and pure irresponsible neglect. The building was probably a tinder box waiting to be ignited. There was absolutely no fire or emergency warning systems in place. No sprinkler systems. No one was trained to act responsibly in such an emergency and I am sure that instead of holding fire drills which might have contributed to some more children surviving, they spent that time singing songs about how great everything is.

Yes. Thai authorities and most of the population will tell us not to try and force them to adopt western culture and mind our own business. In fact, in this case, what they are saying is that in Thailand life is a cheap commodity and doesn't deserve the attention to develop proven ways to save those lives in emergencies such as this tragedy.

Unfortunately, so many innocent young lives were sacrificed due a nation of adults who are too stubborn and ethnocentric to adopt responsible behaviors which would benefit the society as a whole. This isn't a case of cultural values. This is a case of how little value is placed on life.

No fire alarms! So simple--can be battery powered. But then again, the batteries have to be changed every year....

[Thian]

It's all a matter of stinginess and adults who should be responsible having kiddie brains that never see danger. If they would've spent a few baht on smoke detectors, a few fire extinguishers and proper emergency exits probably nobody would be dead. Instead the boss pocketed the money and bought himself a new flat screen and air-con. Scum

RIP kids

Tubelights don't get warm or they must have been from China.

I expect it was a Thai "electrician"' 's fault

[Acharn]

Not possible, neon light, no matter how bright or how close to the light's cover, can not ignite

a fire as it doesn't omit and heat that can be hot enough to melt plastic and start a fire....

keep looking, or is it another cover up in the making going on there?......

I've measured 560V from a socket during a storm 20 kilometers away from our home - nothings surprises me with electrically instigated "failures" any more.

First wake up call for me was with our water heater in the shower room - zapping me after a storm from ~an arms length away, because of no proper grounding.

That's interesting. I don't know what company it was, but when they installed my water flash heater they pounded a meter-long copper pipe into the ground and ran a wire from the heater through a hole drilled in the back wall of my house to the pipe. I think it's the only electric appliance I've got that is properly grounded. I'd love to find an electrician who really knew his craft to check my wiring and properly ground everything. You might have a small chance of finding one in Bangkok, but I doubt there's one here in Nakhon Sawan.

Oh, I imagine it's a language barrier thing, but I really don't think the lights they are talking about are neon lights. Neon lights are a lot more complicated. I think what they are talking about is what we would call in American, "flourescent lights." I've had short circuits in them that melted the plastic, but I don't think that could have ignited cloth. They sound pretty desperate -- must be trying to avoid blame of some kind.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Acharn

[Toscano]

I doubt very much that the cause of fire was neon tubular lighting being left on all night .

I think more likely a poor electrical installation or old wiring that caused an electrical short .

Shouldn't such a building have smoke alarms ; there should be emergency stairs or fire escapes ?

There is ignorance and a failure of the public body responsible for the building to ensure its safety .

Western countries have health and safety and building regulations , which are more often a costly nuisance ,

but in this case could have saved lives .

[cumgranosalum]

I should think there are a lot of people who don't want to be held responsible for this and they are stumbling over each other to pass the buck, muddy the waters and distract from the real problem, that of proper fire drills and safety procedures.

Edited May 24, 2016 by cumgranosalum

[mrdc]

How can there not be any smoke alarms or smoke detectors in a house where 38 students sleep every night? That technology is from the last century.

[fullcave]

Safety first. Just look at the way they transport the children to school in the back of an overloaded pickup truck example.

Edited May 24, 2016 by fullcave

[SOTIRIOS]

....terrible...

..why I objected to my daughters attending 'boarding schools'...

...nobody is ever responsible for anything....especially when the unthinkable occurs......

...all else....'out of sight, out of mind'.....

...virtually prisoners and at the whim of whomever....

...'taking a shower'.....???

...a 3 hour shower......

...yeah right....

[mankondang]

Not possible, neon light, no matter how bright or how close to the light's cover, can not ignite

a fire as it doesn't omit and heat that can be hot enough to melt plastic and start a fire....

keep looking, or is it another cover up in the making going on there?......

The light's themselves,, no,, however the transformers could easily get hot enough,, if they were faulty,,,

Agree, the neon gas which is ionized by DC voltage, hence illuminated, is not hot, but the transformer and associated equipment required to convert the required DC voltage from the supplied AC voltage can cause problems. Furthermore, since the neon light itself has no earth lead, just a 2 lead positive and negative, then it can not detect earth leakage current, as there isn't any, making Earth Leakage Detectors useless.

My sincere sympathies to all concerned.

[bazza40]

There could be a number of contributing causes to the overall tragedy, e.g. substandard lights, incorrect installation, locked doors etc.etc. The big question is whether anyone will learn from it and ensure it doesn't happen again.

Come to think of it, Australia learned from the Port Arthur massacre and ensured it wouldn't happen again. America refuses to learn.