Rice sold on government auctions cannot be delivered because of different qualities

[billd766]

Mrs Duangporn blamed the warehouse owners and the surveyors for not checking the rice bought by the previous government that were kept in their warehouses whether they met with the specifications or not.

But the current government took over the ownership and responsibility of this whole project the day they took over power.

Asked why the discrepancy was not detected before the auctions were staged by the government, she admitted that officials concerned only made random inspection of the rice for auctions because they could not examine all the rice in the warehouses.

Wait, you just blamed the warehouse owners and the surveyors for the mistake, but now you accidentally point out who should get the blame.

The random sample was too small or nothing was checked at all because the officials were having an extended lunch break.

Well to do that they would have to open all the sacks of rice containing some 18 million or so tonnes.

Of course you could equally say that the previous government who paid the inflated price (using government funds) should have done the same thing.

That of course does not put the blame where you want it though.

[12DrinkMore]

In the final analysis , surely it is the responsibility of the warehouse owner as to what he is storing . He should know exactly what he has got and have full record of what has gone in or out and where it has gone. So where is all the mystery.

How long have you lived in Thailand?

[Emster23]

"officials concerned only made random inspection of the rice for auctions because they could not examine all the rice in the warehouses."

Could not or would not? "Could not" implies they lack the brains, physical capacity or some other shortcoming. "Would not" implies that doing so would involve work, intent to perform some duties that might go with managing those warehouses. In their defense, probably nothing in job description that would suggest brains, ability and responsibility required.

[geriatrickid]

"She disclosed that the rice stored in some warehouses was different from type put on auction."

"Or in the latest case, we put on auction sticky rice. But the buyers found out they were rotten rice,"...

There simply is no cure for ignorance and stupidity. Poor Thailand.

not sure I get your meaning

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

More likely the warehouse sold the good quality rice and replaced it with crap.

[Bob12345]

Mrs Duangporn blamed the warehouse owners and the surveyors for not checking the rice bought by the previous government that were kept in their warehouses whether they met with the specifications or not.

But the current government took over the ownership and responsibility of this whole project the day they took over power.

Asked why the discrepancy was not detected before the auctions were staged by the government, she admitted that officials concerned only made random inspection of the rice for auctions because they could not examine all the rice in the warehouses.

Wait, you just blamed the warehouse owners and the surveyors for the mistake, but now you accidentally point out who should get the blame.

The random sample was too small or nothing was checked at all because the officials were having an extended lunch break.

Well to do that they would have to open all the sacks of rice containing some 18 million or so tonnes.

Of course you could equally say that the previous government who paid the inflated price (using government funds) should have done the same thing.

That of course does not put the blame where you want it though.

Well to do that they would have to open all the sacks of rice containing some 18 million or so tonnes.

Wrong, it is clear you know little about how auditing works in the real world.

Let me quote myself:

It is actually extremely simple... Instead of opening every bag and counting the grains, you just take a representative sample and check only that.

Depending on the size of the stored rice you might have to open 100 or more bags, but you surely do not have to open them all and count every grain.

With this representative sample you can estimate, with varying degrees of certainty, what the quality and type of the total amount of rice will be. The more certain you want to be, the bigger your sample should be.

That of course does not put the blame where you want it though.

Wrong again. It is clear you assume that anyone not blindly supporting the military government is automatically a red shirt/Taksin/Yingluck supporter. Hate to break your bubble with your simplistic world view, but that is not correct.

I want the people responsible for this auction to take blame for putting things up for sale they did not have.

And I also want Yingluck to be prosecuted for her role in the rice buying scheme.

Sounds strange right, that I want justice to be done on both sides?

That makes it a lot harder to argue as you only seem to have populist propaganda to spew.

[Edit: my multi-quoting destroyed half the text I wrote]

Edited May 25, 2016 by Bob12345

[Alwyn]

So Gen Prayut will obviously be impeached for allowing this to happen while he is the PM? There is nobody else to blame when this sort of thing happens apparently.

[Srikcir]

rice stored in some warehouses was different from type put on auction.

This is a shocker!

Since the NCPO initiated the inspection in July 2014, 18 million tons of Yingluck's pledged rice stored in 1,787 granaries around the country have been checked by troops against records for both quantity and quality.

In December 2014 Prayut announced NCPO's findings: 2.1 million tons of rice was up to standard, while another 14.4 million tons would need to be re-graded and there is 6.94 million tons of spoiled rice and rice of no clear origin.

Any misconduct that gave rise to the change in rice quality since the NCPO's inspection should be dealt with legally - albeit the NCPO as the current caretaker of the pledged rice is immune to any legal accountability.

[smedly]

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

Do you know any auditors?

Maybe you should try to befriend some, because these people learn how to tackle a problem like this early in their studies and work.

It is actually extremely simple... Instead of opening every bag and counting the grains, you just take a representative sample and check only that.

Depending on the size of the stored rice you might have to open 100 or more bags, but you surely do not have to open them all and count every grain.

With this representative sample you can estimate, with varying degrees of certainty, what the quality and type of the total amount of rice will be. The more certain you want to be, the bigger your sample should be.

I understand you try to make "rockingrobin" look stupid with your remark, but you only make yourself look stupid by not understanding how sampling works.

The same goes for Mrs Duangporn:

Asked why the discrepancy was not detected before the auctions were staged by the government, she admitted that officials concerned only made random inspection of the rice for auctions because they could not examine all the rice in the warehouses.

They do not need to examine all the rice in the warehouses, they just need to get a representative sample.

She should not have send "officials" on their way to make a random inspection, she should have gotten someone who knows how sampling works to advice them how to approach this.

She tries to blame others for the mistake they just made. The mistake is not that the wrong types of rice is stored, the mistake is that they did not check the rice thoroughly enough before putting it up for sale.

just maybe someone went to great lengths to cover up a major crime, oh wait most people with the ability for basic thought knew that already

Just one of the many schemes dreamed up by scrupulous people to steal from the Thai tax payer involving the mega rice scam, corruption on a scale never seen before in Thailand (a statement I made several years ago on TVF and still believe it is correct) most of which will never be fully uncovered

[MW72]

"She disclosed that the rice stored in some warehouses was different from type put on auction."

"Or in the latest case, we put on auction sticky rice. But the buyers found out they were rotten rice,"...

There simply is no cure for ignorance and stupidity. Poor Thailand.

not sure I get your meaning

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

Regardless of who put the rice in the warehouse and who inventoried it, the current mob have had 2 years to put this straight. Just shows how useless they are. Don't worry they can keep blaming the boogie man and people will fall for it.

[Bob12345]

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

Do you know any auditors?

Maybe you should try to befriend some, because these people learn how to tackle a problem like this early in their studies and work.

It is actually extremely simple... Instead of opening every bag and counting the grains, you just take a representative sample and check only that.

Depending on the size of the stored rice you might have to open 100 or more bags, but you surely do not have to open them all and count every grain.

With this representative sample you can estimate, with varying degrees of certainty, what the quality and type of the total amount of rice will be. The more certain you want to be, the bigger your sample should be.

I understand you try to make "rockingrobin" look stupid with your remark, but you only make yourself look stupid by not understanding how sampling works.

The same goes for Mrs Duangporn:

Asked why the discrepancy was not detected before the auctions were staged by the government, she admitted that officials concerned only made random inspection of the rice for auctions because they could not examine all the rice in the warehouses.

They do not need to examine all the rice in the warehouses, they just need to get a representative sample.

She should not have send "officials" on their way to make a random inspection, she should have gotten someone who knows how sampling works to advice them how to approach this.

She tries to blame others for the mistake they just made. The mistake is not that the wrong types of rice is stored, the mistake is that they did not check the rice thoroughly enough before putting it up for sale.

just maybe someone went to great lengths to cover up a major crime, oh wait most people with the ability for basic thought knew that already

Just one of the many schemes dreamed up by scrupulous people to steal from the Thai tax payer involving the mega rice scam, corruption on a scale never seen before in Thailand (a statement I made several years ago on TVF and still believe it is correct) most of which will never be fully uncovered

I explained to you how they should have done their audit, and that the ones organizing the auction should have known what they were selling before they started taking bids.

You come with something unrelated about "someone" and a "major crime", all of which is unrelated to what i said and unrelated to the part I quoted.

You could just as well mention that "someone" had oatmeal for breakfast. That also adds nothing to the conversation.

[smedly]

just maybe someone went to great lengths to cover up a major crime, oh wait most people with the ability for basic thought knew that already

Just one of the many schemes dreamed up by scrupulous people to steal from the Thai tax payer involving the mega rice scam, corruption on a scale never seen before in Thailand (a statement I made several years ago on TVF and still believe it is correct) most of which will never be fully uncovered

I explained to you how they should have done their audit, and that the ones organizing the auction should have known what they were selling before they started taking bids.

You come with something unrelated about "someone" and a "major crime", all of which is unrelated to what i said and unrelated to the part I quoted.

You could just as well mention that "someone" had oatmeal for breakfast. That also adds nothing to the conversation.

the people who bagged and tagged the rice are to blame for this, none else, you can make all the accusations you like about how the inventory was sampled - counted or whatever but the blame lays firmly with those responsible for putting it there

you have absolutely no idea of the lengths certain people went too to cover this scam up, it is even possible that there rotten rice mixed with good rice in a single bag.....try counting that (which was my original point)

What you fail to realise is the lengths that people will go to in this country when it involves money and scams

several people on this thread have used your otherwise sensible post to try to somehow put blame on the current government for the rice scam lol how stupid and twisted is that

we all know generally who was responsible anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

[Winniedapu]

"She disclosed that the rice stored in some warehouses was different from type put on auction."

"Or in the latest case, we put on auction sticky rice. But the buyers found out they were rotten rice,"...

There simply is no cure for ignorance and stupidity. Poor Thailand.

not sure I get your meaning

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

I think we all get it, but the fact remains. that the government took responsibility when they seized power. They acknowledged their responsibility by ordering an audit. The audit was good enough to use as a basis for a witch-hunt against the regime they illegally seized power from, but not, apparently, good enough to use as the basis for an auction to their rich mates.

This casts a long shadow over the whole claim for damages against YL, we can all see how bogus the monetary claim must be.

So:... Either the audit was done to the standard we have all come to expect from Thais, and was just wrong.

Or: The whole claim of damages against YL and the former government is clearly wrong and cannot be supported by the incompetent audit.

Or: Both.

Not much wriggle-room for the little general really, is there?

Winnie

Edited May 25, 2016 by Winniedapu

[Winniedapu]

<snipola>

several people on this thread have used your otherwise sensible post to try to somehow put blame on the current government for the rice scam lol how stupid and twisted is that

we all know generally who was responsible anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

'Know' is always based on fact, 'believe' is generally based on something other than fact. The two do not mix very well when juxtaposed.

You may well think you know who was responsible, but in fact you only 'believe' you know. You might be right of course, but you might also be quite wrong. In the race for being perceived as a clown, calling people fools if they do not agree with your belief gives you an unfair advantage.

Winnie

Edited May 25, 2016 by Winniedapu

[phoenixdoglover]

In an auction, there are two basic modes:

1. the seller makes a fair representation of the goods, or

2. The seller offers the goods without representation (where is, as is). In this latter mode, the buyer is offered a right to pre-bid inspection.

It looks like we are in mode 1. The buyers have a right to withdraw without penalty.

Now on to assigning blame, the most important part of the process.

I vote for Yingluck. Had she not wasted time meeting world leaders, she could have inspected, tagged, and sealed the rice. But either she did not do so, or personally supervise the work, or she oversaw fraudulent tagging. The negligence of the amply rich knows no bounds.

P.S. Don't bother me with your news clips about the Junta. The past 2 years are but a dream. Some would say a nightmare.

Edited May 25, 2016 by phoenixdoglover

[MW72]

just maybe someone went to great lengths to cover up a major crime, oh wait most people with the ability for basic thought knew that already

Just one of the many schemes dreamed up by scrupulous people to steal from the Thai tax payer involving the mega rice scam, corruption on a scale never seen before in Thailand (a statement I made several years ago on TVF and still believe it is correct) most of which will never be fully uncovered

you have absolutely no idea of the lengths certain people went too to cover this scam up, it is even possible that there rotten rice mixed with good rice in a single bag.....try counting that (which was my original point)

What you fail to realise is the lengths that people will go to in this country when it involves money and scams

.

On the point of mixing good with bad (and completely unrelated), wasn't that the whole reason for the last financial crisis? They put a few good mortgages in with a ton of s#!tty ones and sold them on as AAA. I think one person went to jail for that and it definitely wasn't the men at the top.

Thailand isn't the only country where people will go to great lengths to scam a few bucks.

[candide]

just maybe someone went to great lengths to cover up a major crime, oh wait most people with the ability for basic thought knew that already

Just one of the many schemes dreamed up by scrupulous people to steal from the Thai tax payer involving the mega rice scam, corruption on a scale never seen before in Thailand (a statement I made several years ago on TVF and still believe it is correct) most of which will never be fully uncovered

I explained to you how they should have done their audit, and that the ones organizing the auction should have known what they were selling before they started taking bids.

You come with something unrelated about "someone" and a "major crime", all of which is unrelated to what i said and unrelated to the part I quoted.

You could just as well mention that "someone" had oatmeal for breakfast. That also adds nothing to the conversation.

the people who bagged and tagged the rice are to blame for this, none else, you can make all the accusations you like about how the inventory was sampled - counted or whatever but the blame lays firmly with those responsible for putting it there

you have absolutely no idea of the lengths certain people went too to cover this scam up, it is even possible that there rotten rice mixed with good rice in a single bag.....try counting that (which was my original point)

What you fail to realise is the lengths that people will go to in this country when it involves money and scams

several people on this thread have used your otherwise sensible post to try to somehow put blame on the current government for the rice scam lol how stupid and twisted is that

we all know generally who was responsible anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

If differences in quality concern large quantities of rice, as you claim by "massive scam", then they must be detected by an inspection based on proper sampling, as mentioned already by Bob. If there is a dozen of bags with inaccurate quality of rice it may go unobserved. If it concerns hundreds of bags, it cannot.

So there are two possibilities:

- the inspection was poorly designed, in particular the sample definition

- or/and the inspection was inadequately done (i.e. by checking only bags that are easy to access)

Edited May 25, 2016 by candide

[Redline]

The rice seller is responsible. It's not like nobody lies around here. It's like saying that it's the fault of the warehouse that the toy I bought my son, was not the one in the box. Not!

It may not even be Thai rice? Use it as feed, and start from scratch...

Edited May 25, 2016 by Redline

[Dap]

Auctions should be held directly at the warehouses to bid at side and let the potential bidders do the checking b4 they bid.

Too much logic

[ChrisY1]

"She disclosed that the rice stored in some warehouses was different from type put on auction."

"Or in the latest case, we put on auction sticky rice. But the buyers found out they were rotten rice,"...

There simply is no cure for ignorance and stupidity. Poor Thailand.

not sure I get your meaning

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

Sure did!........ But as usual here, no-one ever cares and it probably wasn't really done at all!

[smedly]

not sure I get your meaning

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

I think we all get it, but the fact remains. that the government took responsibility when they seized power. They acknowledged their responsibility by ordering an audit. The audit was good enough to use as a basis for a witch-hunt against the regime they illegally seized power from, but not, apparently, good enough to use as the basis for an auction to their rich mates.

This casts a long shadow over the whole claim for damages against YL, we can all see how bogus the monetary claim must be.

So:... Either the audit was done to the standard we have all come to expect from Thais, and was just wrong.

Or: The whole claim of damages against YL and the former government is clearly wrong and cannot be supported by the incompetent audit.

Or: Both.

Not much wriggle-room for the little general really, is there?

Winnie

what it tells me based on your post is that those that are responsible for this debacle are actually getting off lighter than they should and that the damage they caused is in fact considerably worse than estimated so far.

How you can twist this to make it look like the current government are in some way responsible is quite frankly shocking

The current government might well be somewhat responsible for not auditing the current rice stockpiles thoroughly enough but that is hard a crime on the grand scale of things, it could also be argued that the warehouses are in such a poor state that it is almost an impossible task to carry out an effective audit - we are talking about millions of tonnes of sacks of rice that unless each individual one is opened there is no effective way to carry out such an audit, in effect what this does is make the rice completely spoiled and not fit to sell in any standard reliable fashion

An attempt has been made to sell the rice and claw back some money for the country but that now seems to be at considerable risk since the buyers are now entirely satisfied with their purchase for a number of reasons

So were does that leave the estimated loss figure previously released by the government, looks to me like it is grossly underestimated and if this rice in storage is not fit for sale due to the various reasons then that loss figure must be getting close to one trillion baht

Those that think the previous government and others responsible for this should not be punished are quite frankly delusional

[phoenixdoglover]

not sure I get your meaning

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

I think we all get it, but the fact remains. that the government took responsibility when they seized power. They acknowledged their responsibility by ordering an audit. The audit was good enough to use as a basis for a witch-hunt against the regime they illegally seized power from, but not, apparently, good enough to use as the basis for an auction to their rich mates.

This casts a long shadow over the whole claim for damages against YL, we can all see how bogus the monetary claim must be.

So:... Either the audit was done to the standard we have all come to expect from Thais, and was just wrong.

Or: The whole claim of damages against YL and the former government is clearly wrong and cannot be supported by the incompetent audit.

Or: Both.

Not much wriggle-room for the little general really, is there?

Winnie

what it tells me based on your post is that those that are responsible for this debacle are actually getting off lighter than they should and that the damage they caused is in fact considerably worse than estimated so far.

How you can twist this to make it look like the current government are in some way responsible is quite frankly shocking

The current government might well be somewhat responsible for not auditing the current rice stockpiles thoroughly enough but that is hard a crime on the grand scale of things, it could also be argued that the warehouses are in such a poor state that it is almost an impossible task to carry out an effective audit - we are talking about millions of tonnes of sacks of rice that unless each individual one is opened there is no effective way to carry out such an audit, in effect what this does is make the rice completely spoiled and not fit to sell in any standard reliable fashion

An attempt has been made to sell the rice and claw back some money for the country but that now seems to be at considerable risk since the buyers are now entirely satisfied with their purchase for a number of reasons

So were does that leave the estimated loss figure previously released by the government, looks to me like it is grossly underestimated and if this rice in storage is not fit for sale due to the various reasons then that loss figure must be getting close to one trillion baht

Those that think the previous government and others responsible for this should not be punished are quite frankly delusional

Let's say you buy a used car and you are the 3rd owner. The car breaks down as you attempt to drive it home. Who do you blame?

1. The 1st owner

2. The 2nd owner (seller)

3. Yourself (buyer)

Edited May 25, 2016 by phoenixdoglover

[smedly]

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

I think we all get it, but the fact remains. that the government took responsibility when they seized power. They acknowledged their responsibility by ordering an audit. The audit was good enough to use as a basis for a witch-hunt against the regime they illegally seized power from, but not, apparently, good enough to use as the basis for an auction to their rich mates.

This casts a long shadow over the whole claim for damages against YL, we can all see how bogus the monetary claim must be.

So:... Either the audit was done to the standard we have all come to expect from Thais, and was just wrong.

Or: The whole claim of damages against YL and the former government is clearly wrong and cannot be supported by the incompetent audit.

Or: Both.

Not much wriggle-room for the little general really, is there?

Winnie

what it tells me based on your post is that those that are responsible for this debacle are actually getting off lighter than they should and that the damage they caused is in fact considerably worse than estimated so far.

How you can twist this to make it look like the current government are in some way responsible is quite frankly shocking

The current government might well be somewhat responsible for not auditing the current rice stockpiles thoroughly enough but that is hard a crime on the grand scale of things, it could also be argued that the warehouses are in such a poor state that it is almost an impossible task to carry out an effective audit - we are talking about millions of tonnes of sacks of rice that unless each individual one is opened there is no effective way to carry out such an audit, in effect what this does is make the rice completely spoiled and not fit to sell in any standard reliable fashion

An attempt has been made to sell the rice and claw back some money for the country but that now seems to be at considerable risk since the buyers are now entirely satisfied with their purchase for a number of reasons

So were does that leave the estimated loss figure previously released by the government, looks to me like it is grossly underestimated and if this rice in storage is not fit for sale due to the various reasons then that loss figure must be getting close to one trillion baht

Those that think the previous government and others responsible for this should not be punished are quite frankly delusional

Let's say you buy a used car and you are the 3rd owner. The car breaks down as you attempt to drive it home. Who do you blame?

1. The 1st owner

2. The 2nd owner (seller)

3. Yourself (buyer)

oh dear did you really just say that

I will rescue the point you attempted to make by the following

suppose the first owner had clocked up a series of parking tickets - speeding tickets and other various offences but never paid them or evaded criminal proceedings........................you getting it ?

[Bob12345]

the people who bagged and tagged the rice are to blame for this, none else, you can make all the accusations you like about how the inventory was sampled - counted or whatever but the blame lays firmly with those responsible for putting it there

you have absolutely no idea of the lengths certain people went too to cover this scam up, it is even possible that there rotten rice mixed with good rice in a single bag.....try counting that (which was my original point)

What you fail to realise is the lengths that people will go to in this country when it involves money and scams

several people on this thread have used your otherwise sensible post to try to somehow put blame on the current government for the rice scam lol how stupid and twisted is that

we all know generally who was responsible anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

the people who bagged and tagged the rice are to blame for this, none else, you can make all the accusations you like about how the inventory was sampled - counted or whatever but the blame lays firmly with those responsible for putting it there

Nope.

The people who bagged and tagged the rice are to blame that the actual inventory does not match up with what should be in inventory (incorrect filing, missing bags, wrong quality, etc).

The people who sold the rice are responsible for delivering what they promised. If they couldn't be bothered to first check out what they had before putting it up for sale then it is their responsibility.

Isn't it strange that the current government found billions of baht of fraud in the rice scam, but blindly believes that whatever the papers say is actually what is in the bags?

They have enough evidence to start a law suit against the people who "bagged and tagged" the rice, but still blindly trust them and their paperwork. Sounds naive and stupid to me...

you have absolutely no idea of the lengths certain people went too to cover this scam up, it is even possible that there rotten rice mixed with good rice in a single bag.....try counting that (which was my original point)

I think I have a fairly good idea of the lengths certain people went too to cover this up. I think we both have a similar idea of this as neither of us has inside information and we both rely on the media for information.

And you still don't seem to understand how auditing works. You don't have to actually count rice for an audit, you just need to open a few representative bags of rice and check the contents with what the label says. Based on the sample you use statistics to come to a conclusion, in no way you should actually count the grains of rice.

Please stop embarrassing yourself by bringing this up over and over again without first trying to understand how sampling and auditing works.

What you fail to realise is the lengths that people will go to in this country when it involves money and scams

No, i do not fail to realize that. You seem to fail to realize that BOTH SIDES go to great lengths when it involves money and scams.

several people on this thread have used your otherwise sensible post to try to somehow put blame on the current government for the rice scam lol how stupid and twisted is that

Actually, nobody did that. If someone did, please quote them.

What some people might have suggested is that the current government should bear partial blame for what happened to the rice stocks since they took over.

Although I miss details, i do not think that is a stupid/strange suggestion. The current government is partly responsible for how they manage the stock of rice they "inherited", otherwise they could just throw it all in the sea and blame the previous government for the complete loss. That does not sound fair, not even to you right? That you inherit some "disaster", make it worse with mismanagement, and than push away all the blame to your ancestors. Now that is stupid and twisted.

we all know generally who was responsible anyone who believes otherwise is a fool.

We all know who was generally responsible for the buildup of rice. Yes, there is little discussion there.

But that is not the point of this article, right?

The article is about the current government trying to sell rice from the stockpiles and being caught with their pants down as they had no idea what they were selling.

Nowhere in the article is there any discussion on who is responsible for the buildup of the stockpiles.

[Bob12345]

Let's say you buy a used car and you are the 3rd owner. The car breaks down as you attempt to drive it home. Who do you blame?

1. The 1st owner

2. The 2nd owner (seller)

3. Yourself (buyer)

oh dear did you really just say that

I will rescue the point you attempted to make by the following

suppose the first owner had clocked up a series of parking tickets - speeding tickets and other various offences but never paid them or evaded criminal proceedings........................you getting it ?

Interesting point.

In case of the parking tickets - speeding tickets I would go to the seller to complain.

He has to make me whole for selling me a car with hidden liabilities.

He can claim that the 1st owner got the ticket, but that is not my problem, is it?

He has to make me whole and after that he can go after the first owner for selling him a car with hidden liabilities.

I hope for the second owner that he can still find the first owner and make his claim, but frankly it is none of my business as I have never had any business with the first owner.

This is how it normally works in civilized countries, and the reason it works this way is to make sure you cannot "pass the buck" all the time.

A consumer buys a broken TV and the shop says it is the fault of the manufacturer.

The consumer now has to go to the manufacturer who says the microchips they used were of bad quality and he should complain to the chip producer.

The consumer now has to find the chip producer who says the raw material were polluted which is why the chips were bad.

Now the consumer can take a plan to Africa to find the raw materials producer to complain they deliver polluted raw materials to a chip producer who used it to make a microchip that ended up in a TV that ended up at a shop that ended up in his home.

But this is getting off-topic now....

Edited May 25, 2016 by Bob12345

[smedly]

Let's say you buy a used car and you are the 3rd owner. The car breaks down as you attempt to drive it home. Who do you blame?

1. The 1st owner

2. The 2nd owner (seller)

3. Yourself (buyer)

oh dear did you really just say that

I will rescue the point you attempted to make by the following

suppose the first owner had clocked up a series of parking tickets - speeding tickets and other various offences but never paid them or evaded criminal proceedings........................you getting it ?

Interesting point.

In case of the parking tickets - speeding tickets I would go to the seller to complain.

He has to make me whole for selling me a car with hidden liabilities.

He can claim that the 1st owner got the ticket, but that is not my problem, is it?

He has to make me whole and after that he can go after the first owner for selling him a car with hidden liabilities.

I hope for the second owner that he can still find the first owner and make his claim, but frankly it is none of my business as I have never had any business with the first owner.

This is how it normally works in civilized countries, and the reason it works this way is to make sure you cannot "pass the buck" all the time.

A consumer buys a broken TV and the shop says it is the fault of the manufacturer.

The consumer now has to go to the manufacturer who says the microchips they used were of bad quality and he should complain to the chip producer.

The consumer now has to find the chip producer who says the raw material were polluted which is why the chips were bad.

Now the consumer can take a plan to Africa to find the raw materials producer to complain they deliver polluted raw materials to a chip producer who used it to make a microchip that ended up in a TV that ended up at a shop that ended up in his home.

But this is getting off-topic now....

OMG - the tickets and crimes do not belong to the car (or the rice) and do not migrate to the next owner, and investigation into the crimes may or may not reveal everything but either way none of it transfers with the car (or rice)

I cannot believe I am having to explain this - are you taking the pi%%

[candide]

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

I think we all get it, but the fact remains. that the government took responsibility when they seized power. They acknowledged their responsibility by ordering an audit. The audit was good enough to use as a basis for a witch-hunt against the regime they illegally seized power from, but not, apparently, good enough to use as the basis for an auction to their rich mates.

This casts a long shadow over the whole claim for damages against YL, we can all see how bogus the monetary claim must be.

So:... Either the audit was done to the standard we have all come to expect from Thais, and was just wrong.

Or: The whole claim of damages against YL and the former government is clearly wrong and cannot be supported by the incompetent audit.

Or: Both.

Not much wriggle-room for the little general really, is there?

Winnie

what it tells me based on your post is that those that are responsible for this debacle are actually getting off lighter than they should and that the damage they caused is in fact considerably worse than estimated so far.

How you can twist this to make it look like the current government are in some way responsible is quite frankly shocking

The current government might well be somewhat responsible for not auditing the current rice stockpiles thoroughly enough but that is hard a crime on the grand scale of things, it could also be argued that the warehouses are in such a poor state that it is almost an impossible task to carry out an effective audit - we are talking about millions of tonnes of sacks of rice that unless each individual one is opened there is no effective way to carry out such an audit, in effect what this does is make the rice completely spoiled and not fit to sell in any standard reliable fashion

An attempt has been made to sell the rice and claw back some money for the country but that now seems to be at considerable risk since the buyers are now entirely satisfied with their purchase for a number of reasons

So were does that leave the estimated loss figure previously released by the government, looks to me like it is grossly underestimated and if this rice in storage is not fit for sale due to the various reasons then that loss figure must be getting close to one trillion baht

Those that think the previous government and others responsible for this should not be punished are quite frankly delusional

"So were does that leave the estimated loss figure previously released by the government, looks to me like it is grossly underestimated and if this rice in storage is not fit for sale due to the various reasons then that loss figure must be getting close to one trillion baht"

Let's start with he basics: with proper sampling you get a figure with an accurarcy of say +/- 5%, with a less proper sampling +/- 10%, +/-20% etc....

But it's always +/-

So if (as you seem to acknowledge) the Junta's inspection was done with poor sampling size and procedure, the odds are exactly the same that it's + or -: there's exactly the same probability that it has been overestimated than underestimated.

On top of it there is the intent. It makes sense to think that the previous government may have tried to minimise the figures of spoiled rice. It is an understatement to say that the current government surely have not tried to minimise these figures.

[Bob12345]

OMG - the tickets and crimes do not belong to the car (or the rice) and do not migrate to the next owner, and investigation into the crimes may or may not reveal everything but either way none of it transfers with the car (or rice)

I cannot believe I am having to explain this - are you taking the pi%%

I think you are taking the pi%%.

I replied to 2 comments you made, and instead of going deeper into the first one which is about the article and the things you said you chose to dig deeper into this one even though it is off topic and contains strange comparisons (not made up by me)?

None of the crimes transfer with the car.

Agree there, but i think nobody is suggesting to sue the current government over the pile of rice left by the previous government. If someone is suggesting that, please quote them. If you cannot, you are making it up to divert attention from the strange things you said before. People are just suggesting the current government (auction organizers) take responsibility for screwing up the auction by putting stuff on sale they do not have.

Let me repeat that as i have said it many times already and you still don't seem to grasp it:

the organizers of the auction should take responsibility for putting stuff up for sell without first checking if they actually have what they put up for sale!!!

It seems like you want to hold the previous government responsible for the mistake the auctioneers made. That is like buying the 3rd hand car, getting a ticket, and going back to the first or second owner and demanding they pay your ticket.

(please stop with the car analogy and react to the things i replied to your earlier comment)

[phoenixdoglover]

It would appear that what is in the warehouses is not what is supposed to be there and there could be a few possible reasons for that, just as well those responsible for putting the rice there are in the dock facing charges

Did the coup leaders not order a full inventory of the stocked rice when they assumed power

yes they opened very bag verified and counted every grain

how stupid was that lol

do I need to expand a little more or are you getting it

I think we all get it, but the fact remains. that the government took responsibility when they seized power. They acknowledged their responsibility by ordering an audit. The audit was good enough to use as a basis for a witch-hunt against the regime they illegally seized power from, but not, apparently, good enough to use as the basis for an auction to their rich mates.

This casts a long shadow over the whole claim for damages against YL, we can all see how bogus the monetary claim must be.

So:... Either the audit was done to the standard we have all come to expect from Thais, and was just wrong.

Or: The whole claim of damages against YL and the former government is clearly wrong and cannot be supported by the incompetent audit.

Or: Both.

Not much wriggle-room for the little general really, is there?

Winnie

what it tells me based on your post is that those that are responsible for this debacle are actually getting off lighter than they should and that the damage they caused is in fact considerably worse than estimated so far.

How you can twist this to make it look like the current government are in some way responsible is quite frankly shocking

The current government might well be somewhat responsible for not auditing the current rice stockpiles thoroughly enough but that is hard a crime on the grand scale of things, it could also be argued that the warehouses are in such a poor state that it is almost an impossible task to carry out an effective audit - we are talking about millions of tonnes of sacks of rice that unless each individual one is opened there is no effective way to carry out such an audit, in effect what this does is make the rice completely spoiled and not fit to sell in any standard reliable fashion

An attempt has been made to sell the rice and claw back some money for the country but that now seems to be at considerable risk since the buyers are now entirely satisfied with their purchase for a number of reasons

So were does that leave the estimated loss figure previously released by the government, looks to me like it is grossly underestimated and if this rice in storage is not fit for sale due to the various reasons then that loss figure must be getting close to one trillion baht

Those that think the previous government and others responsible for this should not be punished are quite frankly delusional

Let's say you buy a used car and you are the 3rd owner. The car breaks down as you attempt to drive it home. Who do you blame?

1. The 1st owner

2. The 2nd owner (seller)

3. Yourself (buyer)

oh dear did you really just say that

I will rescue the point you attempted to make by the following

suppose the first owner had clocked up a series of parking tickets - speeding tickets and other various offences but never paid them or evaded criminal proceedings........................you getting it ?

Actually, no, I am not getting it (what you posted).

You are attempting to shift the blame for a poorly conducted auction to the previous governmentn (because, "rice scam"). You continue to make this case despite the fact that posters on this thread have documented that the current administration conducted an audit of the stored rice, and declared that they had properly assessed its quantity and quality.

Much as you would like to make it into something else, the defective auction is really about the the incompetence of the people who planned, approved and conducted the auction.

Could the previous government, or the thousands of other players in the market been responsible for mislabeling of rice or improper storage? Of course they "could", notwithstanding the fact that the current government failed to report this following an audit.

As with my analogy to selling a used car, it was up to Owner #2 to assess the condition of his car and make a fair representation of its condition before selling it in a defective condition. He didn't, so the buyer is entitled to withdraw from the sale, and the actions (or negligence) of Owner #1, if any, is irrelevant to the current transaction.

Edited May 25, 2016 by phoenixdoglover

[Cook my sock]

2 year old, repeatedly sprayed, in a hot climate full of bugs and rats.

Talk about ruining the image of thailands 2nd greatest export.

[jabis]

Did the warehouse manager allready do a runner?

Plenty of more crops on it's way - why run - rice go bad every time, misunderstanging yes.

Can't they get anything right in this country.

Well they do - but not most of it is to anybody's particular liking