Bringing Thaksin To Account

[marshbags]

46 pages of posts and the most prolific posters really haven't budged from their Thaksin-bad, junta-good position. I don't think 46 more pages is really going to change that. They are pretty much handcuffed to that simple perspective.

This is a basic H.Rights issue and objections happened long before the present authorities got involved.

The offences are by no means basic by the way!!!!

Unfortunately the CEO of the day for obvious reasons stalled and prevented any meaningful investigations being carried out.

All this government have done is re start them and find it important enough to re investigate what the E.K.J.,s represent.

As you say simple isn,t it, but well worth while and very important to the victims and their families left behind.

It,s debated in the press, internationally and here on T.Visa and in doing so keeps the issue in the public eye and around the globe.

Otherwise it would all be forgotten in the broader picture and accountability will never happen to those responsible

marshbags

Edited August 25, 2007 by marshbags

[jumnien]

Believe me, accountability will never happen to those responsible.

[marshbags]

The law is the law and the coup was illegal - full stop!

Your reference re the coup is nothing to do with the EKJ investigations, they have been ongoing for a long time now prior to the present situation.

No one was allowed to publish any information on it before, simple as that.

The law is the law and the victims of the thousands murdered will echo this part of your statement.

marshbags

[jumnien]

"The law is the law and the victims of the thousands murdered will echo this part of your statement."

Well, yes, there were many victims of the thousands murdered. If each murdered meth dealer was responsible for 20 deaths that's over 40,000 victims. It hard to estimate but I think you are on the right track, it's an enormous amount of victims we are talking about here.

[blaze]

The law is the law and the coup was illegal - full stop!

Your reference re the coup is nothing to do with the EKJ investigations, they have been ongoing for a long time now prior to the present situation.

No one was allowed to publish any information on it before, simple as that.

The law is the law and the victims of the thousands murdered will echo this part of your statement.

marshbags

Are there occasions when the law can be circumvented for what SOME might sell to the public as 'the greater good'? Eg, torture at Guantanamo, secret CIA renditions, illegal wiretaps, the drug wars in THailand, the coup? Who draws the line? Or do we simply select the transgressions that suit our agendas?

[jumnien]

Brilliant question, Mr. Blaze!

[marshbags]

The law is the law and the coup was illegal - full stop!

Your reference re the coup is nothing to do with the EKJ investigations, they have been ongoing for a long time now prior to the present situation.

No one was allowed to publish any information on it before, simple as that.

The law is the law and the victims of the thousands murdered will echo this part of your statement.

marshbags

Are there occasions when the law can be circumvented for what SOME might sell to the public as 'the greater good'? Eg, torture at Guantanamo, secret CIA renditions, illegal wiretaps, the drug wars in THailand, the coup? These are the only two relevant to Thailand

Who draws the line? Or do we simply select the transgressions that suit our agendas?

As for agendas in relation to this thread it,s " the drug wars "

I feel sure you are not intentionally drifting off topic with a view to causing chaos and getting the thread closed.

As a debater on this thread could you keep it on track so it isn,t forced on the mods to do the obvious should it get out of hand.

Thank you for allowing it to continue being debated along with news items and further developments from all interested members, as they find them.

marshbags

Edited August 25, 2007 by marshbags

[jumnien]

I think it is important to remember that this thread was started 6 weeks after the coup last year. The thread has been about the junta's agenda in prosecuting Thaksin regarding the drug war killings. Surely, the thread would have started before the coup other than its strategic importance to coup apologists.

[marshbags]

I think it is important to remember that this thread was started 6 weeks after the coup last year. The thread has been about the junta's agenda in prosecuting Thaksin regarding the drug war killings. Surely, the thread would have started before the coup other than its strategic importance to coup apologists.

The fact is that the lifting of media censorship regarding the starting of the thread had something to do with the timing.

Even you must be aware of the control of ALL the media relating to anything said against Thaksin on ALL subject matters could only be published if it was favourable to his governence.

I for one was in regular contact with H.Rights on this issue from when it first became apparent what his murderous objectives were and the effect the indiscrimate killing of innocents.

I personally saw a man running for his life being shot in the back in cold blood with people cowering with fear of what might happen to them also.

The man who shot him was wearing a police uniform!!!!!!!

He could easily have been stopped and arrested, taken into custody and questioned, but no they intended to kill him deliberately and in doing so silince him for implicating the people of influence who happen to be the PUYAI and it was to protect their indentity and their drug involvement / cartels.

This prompted me to get in touch with HRW and ask if anything could be done to halt the killings.

All issues were delicate from a Thai Visa point of view you well understand also pre coup days and anything could have got the forum shut down that was considered unfavourable.

This is not a thread having a go at Thaksin because i don,t like him, it just happens to be he is the offender and the man who instigated the EKJ policy of shoot to kill and all the evil intentions that went with it.

It could have been any individual who was in Thaksins shoes at the time and all would have got the same billing and treatment from my perspective regarding this evil crime.

From a humanity point of view because of the timing it is posssible to take him to task and make him accountable, thanks to his bravado in using the various media channels of communication to boast of his actions and his obvious role as leader

I do not honestly believe this thread would have been debated in depth pre coup either due to Thaksins influence and censorship.

marshbags

Edited August 26, 2007 by marshbags

[jumnien]

I agree that pre-coup the junta apologists had no real motivation to endlessly rant about Thaksin. Now that the right-wingers are back at the trough there is every motivation to keep this ridiculous anti-Thaksin posturing in the forefront to mask the rather obvious fact that the freedom and general economic and social advancement that existed before the coup, however imperfect, no longer exists and a travesty is taking place that will take decades to rectify. I understand that those gourging themselves at the trough at present have a different perspective on this matter, as do their loyal supporters.

Edited August 26, 2007 by sunrise07

[hammered]

Is there anyone on this board who does not think that Thaksin should be held accountable before a court for his role in the drug war?

[younghusband]

Is there anyone on this board who does not think that Thaksin should be held accountable before a court for his role in the drug war?

Probably not, though most -apart from what Lenin called the "useful fools"- also understand the drug war abuses have been politicised in the turf war with Thaksin.The Thai elite and their feudal backers couldn't care less about the underclass which suffered, but it's a useful stick to wield in the current political battle.Expect the fuss to die down when it has served its purpose, not least because so many of the elite were implicated in or connived at the crimes.

Is there anyone incidentally on this board who does not think the junta that illegally seized power from a representative, albeit flawed, government should be held accountable before a court for crimes against the state?

[hammered]

"The law is the law and the victims of the thousands murdered will echo this part of your statement."

Well, yes, there were many victims of the thousands murdered. If each murdered meth dealer was responsible for 20 deaths that's over 40,000 victims. It hard to estimate but I think you are on the right track, it's an enormous amount of victims we are talking about here.

It is nice to see you assume guilt of those massacred without trial by the Thakisn regime. It does mean you finally expose yourself as having no like for Democray. Things like formal equality before the law, due process, innocence until proven guilty in a court obviously are not values you hold high, or maybe they just cast the master to whom you are beholden in a bad light. Thank you for finally showing us your true colours.

[hammered]

Is there anyone on this board who does not think that Thaksin should be held accountable before a court for his role in the drug war?

Probably not, though most -apart from what Lenin called the "useful fools"- also understand the drug war abuses have been politicised in the turf war with Thaksin.The Thai elite and their feudal backers couldn't care less about the underclass which suffered, but it's a useful stick to wield in the current political battle.Expect the fuss to die down when it has served its purpose, not least because so many of the elite were implicated in or connived at the crimes.

Is there anyone incidentally on this board who does not think the junta that illegally seized power from a representative, albeit flawed, government should be held accountable before a court for crimes against the state?

Personally I have no problem with anyone being brought before a court for crimes committed whteher they be Thaksin, Junta or drug dealers. That is the correct way. Sadly over the past few years we have seen some totally denied this in a very final way, and a few dodge this via a variety of different manipulations. I admit the reality is the drug cases against T will fall and politically only a lunatic would try to bring a case against the Junta. That is likely all trade off stuff for some horrible deal.

Then again just because reality means dropped charges, deals or the denial of due process doesnt mean I/we cannot condemn it.

[Tony Clifton]

Is there anyone on this board who does not think that Thaksin should be held accountable before a court for his role in the drug war?

Probably not, though most -apart from what Lenin called the "useful fools"- also understand the drug war abuses have been politicised in the turf war with Thaksin.The Thai elite and their feudal backers couldn't care less about the underclass which suffered, but it's a useful stick to wield in the current political battle.Expect the fuss to die down when it has served its purpose, not least because so many of the elite were implicated in or connived at the crimes.

Is there anyone incidentally on this board who does not think the junta that illegally seized power from a representative, albeit flawed, government should be held accountable before a court for crimes against the state?

The previous government had clearly hijacked the country.

What other option were there?

A series of rigged elections?

[sriracha john]

I agree that pre-coup the junta apologists had............... < snipped >

Before you have junta apologists, don't you need a junta first?

How can you say that during the pre-coup period, there were junta apologists????

[jumnien]

Before Hitler came to power there were anti-semites waiting to cheer.

[Mid]

Is there anyone on this board who does not think that Thaksin should be held accountable before a court for his role in the drug war?

agree ,

however it will be a travesty if he alone is found guilty .

[jumnien]

I would take the predominant Thai attitude that its probably better to let the whole thing rest. Perhaps he should pay each of the methamphetamine dealers families a small restitution payment to get them on their feet again.

[Siripon]

I would take the predominant Thai attitude that its probably better to let the whole thing rest. Perhaps he should pay each of the methamphetamine dealers families a small restitution payment to get them on their feet again.

How much should he pay the families of those killed who had nothing to do with drugs?

[John K]

Govt wants to destroy Thaksin with war-on-drug probe: lawyers

Deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's team of lawyers Sunday alleged that the government had the ulterior motive of politically destroying him in setting up a committee to investigate his war on drug policy that led to more than 2,500 deaths.

Prakiat Nasimma, Wichit Plangsrisakul and Nikom Chaokittisopon slammed the government for setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic humanrights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with the deaths during the war against drugs campaign initiated by Thaksin in 2003.

Prakiat said his team analysed the motivation and believed the government wanted to harass Thaksin for his drug policy.

"This policy during the Thaksin administration wiped out drugs and influential people related to it, including dirty money derived from the drug trade. I have unconfirmed report that drugs have returned to the northeastern region with the support of bureaucrats and powerful people. Society has to keep a watch on the rise of drug problems and how they use money from drug trade," he said.

Wichit said he felt the move to set up this panel is not justified. "I am worried the committee may mislead the public that the Thaksin administration must be held responsible for any damage," he said.

He questioned why this committee was established only six days before the public referendum on the constitution even though this government has been in power for more than a year. "Is this committee set up to allow the military-installed government to cling to power?" he posed.

Nikom urged the Election Commission to summon National Legislative Assembly member Chai-anan Samudavanija, a staunch critic of Thaksin, to give information about his statement that more than Bt30 billion is expected to be used in the next general election by politicians who want to be in power and whitewash themselves.

The lawyer also urged the government to stop the move to ratify treaties with foreign countries as it would be unconstitutional. Article 186 of the new Constitution says the Cabinet must inform the public to seek their opinion and announce to Parliament before any treaties can be ratified.

The lawyers said they are keeping a watch on the government move to sign up to the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the UN Convention Against Corruption.

The Nation

[John K]

Well it sure sounds like Thaksin is guilty. If he was innocent this strong a statement would never have been made.

I also would imagine Thaksin is worried about secret newly negotiated extradition treaties.

Changing laws on the fly that get in the way...... I can’t imagine who would have done that in the past.

[Bill97]

Great if the government gets the International Criminal Court and the UN Convention Against Corruption involved. They must be confident to do so.

[sriracha john]

"This policy during the Thaksin administration wiped out drugs and influential people related to it, including dirty money derived from the drug trade.

The Nation / April 13, 2003

Thaksin declares the country 'drug free area'

"The government is pleased to announce that the country is now a drug-free area," said Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

==============================================================================

MCOT / March 20, 2006

Thailand plans to be free from drug production

Thailand recently renewed its nationwide suppression of narcotics, it is expected to become a nation free from drug production within the next three years, the head of the government task force said on Monday.

Wan Mohamad Nor Matha, director of the National Centre for Drug Suppression, (and former TRT Party MP, former TRT Interior Minister, former TRT Deputy Prime Minister) urged related government agencies to strictly follow the centre's directives to rid Thai society of drugs.

He spoke at a meeting of officials to follow up progress in suppressing drugs in 25 central Thai provinces and the capital city of Bangkok after the government has renewed the fight early this month, which would last until August.

Edited August 26, 2007 by sriracha john

[Tony Clifton]

Let me see....

Mr. Wan was involved at the time and is now using his position to look like a concerned good boy after the announcement of investigations into the killings.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[jumnien]

Thailand's referendum

The long march back to the barracks

Aug 23rd 2007

From The Economist print edition

There may be such a thing as a good coup; Thailand's was certainly not one

Getty ImagesFROM Pakistan to Fiji, from Bangladesh to Thailand, the men in green are finding what they should have known all along: that it is far easier for soldiers to topple an elected government than to manage their own exit from the front of the political stage. Many generals, however, never learn that lesson. What is surprising in Thailand, which on August 19th held a referendum designed to smooth their exit (see article), is that so many of the country's elite cheered them on when they staged their coup a year ago. Critics of the coup—such as this newspaper—were denounced for misunderstanding both the depth of the evil of Thaksin Shinawatra, the prime minister they deposed, and the wonders of Thailand itself.

We had no fondness for Mr Thaksin: the human-rights abuses perpetrated by the security forces on his watch were deplorable and some of his nationalist economic policies were loopy. But he had a mandate. His Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party won 375 of the 500 lower-house seats in the last valid election, in 2005. Democracy produces some nasty leaders. But that is no reason for ditching it. Even the best-intentioned coups leave an ugly mess, such as that now facing Thailand.

In the referendum voters approved the new constitution the generals want to foist on them. But it is difficult to see the vote as a ringing endorsement of the new charter itself, let alone as a vindication of last September's coup. Turnout was low; the winning majority even lower; and an unknown share of those who voted yes will have done so only to move the country on towards the elections promised for December, after which, it is hoped, the soldiers will quit politics.

The charter is designed to prevent the re-emergence of an elected strongman like Mr Thaksin. To this end, it contains some unobjectionable measures, such as reducing the number of parliamentarians needed to call a vote of no confidence in the prime minister and strengthening the powers of the national human-rights commission. Public criticism forced the army to drop some egregiously undemocratic clauses, such as the provision for a “national crisis council”, including army officers, to take charge in any future political conflict. However, some dubious bits remain: almost half of the Senate will be appointed by a panel of judges and bureaucrats; and the coupmakers themselves are granted a blanket amnesty.

Even with the “crisis council” expunged from the constitution, the spectre of the army whipping up a crisis to justify seizing power again has not quite gone away. Now that the constitution has passed, the generals may have another go at pushing through a draconian security law, giving the army sweeping new powers to override the elected government and make arrests, search homes without warrants and impose curfews and censorship. All this in the name of combating threats to “internal security”, defined so broadly that the army could treat pretty well any dissent as such.

Built-in weakness

In May a constitutional tribunal created by the junta found the TRT guilty of electoral fraud and dissolved it. But the charter-drafters wanted to make it harder for any other dominant majority party to emerge in future. For that reason, the new constitution tweaks the voting system in favour of smaller parties. This is ironic: the whole point of Thailand's last democratic constitution, passed in 1997, was to free the country from the cycle of weak and unstable coalitions and frequent coups. The danger is now that the charter will succeed too well and Thailand will be back to weak governments.

This would suit the military-royalist elite. They could go back to running the country from behind the scenes. But there is a risk of stagnation. Thailand's economy is already growing slower than its neighbours' in part because of the continuing political uncertainty. A fractious coalition government, or one run by bumbling generals, might make things worse.

The new constitution is Thailand's 18th since the end of absolute monarchy in 1932 and, sadly, may not be its last. The army may have doomed Thailand to further cycles of constitution, crisis and coup. The next flashpoint may not be far off. Hundreds of Mr Thaksin's former MPs have regrouped under the banner of the People's Power Party (PPP). Since Mr Thaksin and his populist policies retain wide support, the PPP may enter the election campaign as front-runner. But the generals will surely do their damnedest to thwart a Thaksinite restoration. If they fight dirty, the relatively small anti-junta protests seen so far could quickly swell. The road back to the barracks is, as ever, strewn with hazards.

[marshbags]

Govt wants to destroy Thaksin with war-on-drug probe: lawyers

Deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra's team of lawyers Sunday alleged that the government had the ulterior motive of politically destroying him in setting up a committee to investigate his war on drug policy that led to more than 2,500 deaths.

Prakiat Nasimma, Wichit Plangsrisakul and Nikom Chaokittisopon slammed the government for setting up an independent investigative committee to look into alleged systematic humanrights violations carried out by members of the Royal Thai Police in connection with the deaths during the war against drugs campaign initiated by Thaksin in 2003.

Prakiat said his team analysed the motivation and believed the government wanted to harass Thaksin for his drug policy.

This policy during the Thaksin administration wiped out drugs and influential people related to it, including dirty money derived from the drug trade. I have unconfirmed report that drugs have returned to the northeastern region with the support of bureaucrats and powerful people. Society has to keep a watch on the rise of drug problems and how they use money from drug trade," he said.

Thaksin didn,t rid the country of drugs or the people of INFLUENCE as everyone with any degree of honesty knows, as for the "dirty money " it may ???? turn out that he is using his share of this to promote new found phoney respectability / endeavours in exile around the globe

Had he allowed the EKJ victims to face due process of the law, along with being interviewed to ascertain any connections with the drug scenario, ( IF ANY ) along with identifying those who were the sponsors of the same. ( PUYAI ) then the situation could have at the least stalled the supply and rid society of these evil influencial individuals in high places.

Going on my personal observations the drug scenario has never ceased in the N.East, it just moved underground and out of public view.

The statement by his lawyers above are truly words from the devil himself, especially when you consider the Murderous vendetta that was raised against people obviously considered un important.

Come on you who think it was different, convince us we are wrong by naming any such PUYAI /INFLUENCIAL individuals who suffered anything like what happened to those tragically considered otherwise. ???????????

Wichit said he felt the move to set up this panel is not justified. "I am worried the committee may mislead the public that the Thaksin administration must be held responsible for any damage," he said.

He questioned why this committee was established only six days before the public referendum on the constitution even though this government has been in power for more than a year. "Is this committee set up to allow the military-installed government to cling to power?" he posed.

Nikom urged the Election Commission to summon National Legislative Assembly member Chai-anan Samudavanija, a staunch critic of Thaksin, to give information about his statement that more than Bt30 billion is expected to be used in the next general election by politicians who want to be in power and whitewash themselves.

The lawyer also urged the government to stop the move to ratify treaties with foreign countries as it would be unconstitutional. Article 186 of the new Constitution says the Cabinet must inform the public to seek their opinion and announce to Parliament before any treaties can be ratified.

The lawyers said they are keeping a watch on the government move to sign up to the International Criminal Court (ICC) and the UN Convention Against Corruption.

The fact is that once that once they do, Thaksin can then be dealt with outside Thailand for offences that have infringed the treaty / treaties guidelines and their demands on all it,s members.

Then the S*** will really hit the fan and if his reputation politaclly wasn,t destroyed before, it will be once all the signing up has taken place.

The Nation

All highlights in read can be read as added comments and observations of marshbags

Thaksin is now showing his real personality that was hidden behind his Thai Love Thai persona.

Nothing less than appropriate justice will acceptable as far as i am concerned.

marshbags

Edited August 27, 2007 by marshbags

[jumnien]

I think Thaksin showed his real personality long before now, you just didn't notice it!

[marshbags]

Thailand's referendum

The long march back to the barracks

Aug 23rd 2007

From The Economist print edition

There may be such a thing as a good coup; Thailand's was certainly not one

Getty ImagesFROM Pakistan to Fiji, from Bangladesh to Thailand, the men in green are finding what they should have known all along: that it is far easier for soldiers to topple an elected government than to manage their own exit from the front of the political stage. Many generals, however, never learn that lesson. What is surprising in Thailand, which on August 19th held a referendum designed to smooth their exit (see article), is that so many of the country's elite cheered them on when they staged their coup a year ago. Critics of the coup—such as this newspaper—were denounced for misunderstanding both the depth of the evil of Thaksin Shinawatra, the prime minister they deposed, and the wonders of Thailand itself.

We had no fondness for Mr Thaksin: the human-rights abuses perpetrated by the security forces on his watch were deplorable and some of his nationalist economic policies were loopy.

Loopy doesn,t begin to describe the EKJ,s and ALL the other equally important H.R.Abuses that occured during the " clear mandate " ???? he failed to follow, as respectable citizens expected him / them to do so.

Not forgetting of course how he illegally hid his wealth by generously giving it to his work force then re possessing it again ??? to be unlawfully elected in the first place.

He then used his influence to get a majority vote to go on to carry his interpretation of the mandate as he and his coherts saw it, including, torure and killing indescriminately those considered expendable.

This is the only part of this post that belongs on this thread in relation to drugs / H.R., the rest belongs in another one to facilitate the sort of recations you are fishing for !!!!, Im tempted to bite further but i won,t.

But he had a mandate. His Thai Rak Thai (TRT) party won 375 of the 500 lower-house seats in the last valid election, in 2005. Democracy produces some nasty leaders. But that is no reason for ditching it. Even the best-intentioned coups leave an ugly mess, such as that now facing Thailand.

In the referendum voters approved the new constitution the generals want to foist on them. But it is difficult to see the vote as a ringing endorsement of the new charter itself, let alone as a vindication of last September's coup. Turnout was low; the winning majority even lower; and an unknown share of those who voted yes will have done so only to move the country on towards the elections promised for December, after which, it is hoped, the soldiers will quit politics.

The charter is designed to prevent the re-emergence of an elected strongman like Mr Thaksin. To this end, it contains some unobjectionable measures, such as reducing the number of parliamentarians needed to call a vote of no confidence in the prime minister and strengthening the powers of the national human-rights commission. Public criticism forced the army to drop some egregiously undemocratic clauses, such as the provision for a “national crisis council”, including army officers, to take charge in any future political conflict. However, some dubious bits remain: almost half of the Senate will be appointed by a panel of judges and bureaucrats; and the coupmakers themselves are granted a blanket amnesty.

Even with the “crisis council” expunged from the constitution, the spectre of the army whipping up a crisis to justify seizing power again has not quite gone away. Now that the constitution has passed, the generals may have another go at pushing through a draconian security law, giving the army sweeping new powers to override the elected government and make arrests, search homes without warrants and impose curfews and censorship. All this in the name of combating threats to “internal security”, defined so broadly that the army could treat pretty well any dissent as such.

Built-in weakness

In May a constitutional tribunal created by the junta found the TRT guilty of electoral fraud and dissolved it. But the charter-drafters wanted to make it harder for any other dominant majority party to emerge in future. For that reason, the new constitution tweaks the voting system in favour of smaller parties. This is ironic: the whole point of Thailand's last democratic constitution, passed in 1997, was to free the country from the cycle of weak and unstable coalitions and frequent coups. The danger is now that the charter will succeed too well and Thailand will be back to weak governments.

This would suit the military-royalist elite. They could go back to running the country from behind the scenes. But there is a risk of stagnation. Thailand's economy is already growing slower than its neighbours' in part because of the continuing political uncertainty. A fractious coalition government, or one run by bumbling generals, might make things worse.

The new constitution is Thailand's 18th since the end of absolute monarchy in 1932 and, sadly, may not be its last. The army may have doomed Thailand to further cycles of constitution, crisis and coup. The next flashpoint may not be far off. Hundreds of Mr Thaksin's former MPs have regrouped under the banner of the People's Power Party (PPP). Since Mr Thaksin and his populist policies retain wide support, the PPP may enter the election campaign as front-runner. But the generals will surely do their damnedest to thwart a Thaksinite restoration. If they fight dirty, the relatively small anti-junta protests seen so far could quickly swell. The road back to the barracks is, as ever, strewn with hazards.

marshbags

Edited August 27, 2007 by marshbags

[Plus]

The Economist's latest rant against the junta can be summarised in one little quote: "The army may have doomed Thailand". All the rest are doomsday scenarios, every internet poster can whip up a dozen of them in less than an hour.

Stay on the drug war, please. There are posters who consistently try to divert this thread.