Bringing Thaksin To Account

[Tony Clifton]

The now well known man-in-black, who pretended to be a policeman and took direct orders from a now ex- police captain when anti-Thaksin protesters had to be silenced and dispersed from a shopping mall, previously saw his jail sentence cancelled in exchange for his services which had absolutely nothing to do with helping the police fighting drugs.

How did a yaba dealer end up being a yes man, released from jail shortly after his conviction DURING the drug war, get hired by the police and became as innocent as Ghandi when one looked at his criminal record?

This is one single case, but I bet there are hundreds more like it, if not thousands. Still, that one single example clearly shows that many were targeted for execution while others were conveniently "recycled" back into the system , considered as part of the team when the boys in brown had some dirty business to do.

Although the drug problem really was a plague at the time, the whole police action was nothing but a rushed, improvised and badly staged theater play involving the no-so-important lives of thousands to polish the image of a single not-so-intelligent PM by using a not-so-law abiding police force.

[ColPyat]

Thai Burmese relations are strained, and such attacks can easily escalate into something Thailand might easily lose badly.

Which I would agree with and is attributable to defense budget cuts during his entire tenure that left the armed forces dilapidated and weak, a situation that is now only being corrected... not unexpectedly to howls of protest.

The cuts already started straight after the '92 event, as far as i can recall, not just under Thaksin.

The problem in the Thai army and associated paramilitary forces is less the budget, but the top heavy organizational structure and corruption. Even today with the raised budget - you will find that combat forces are still embarrassingly badly equipped, and only nice toys are bought. Many units in active combat in the south, for example, have no morphine for their wounded even, and no, or insufficient bullet proof vests. Many soldiers opt not to wear bullet proof vests at all even if supplied, as the ones supplied do not protect against AK 47 bullets, some do protect only against shrapnel, the main weapon used by the insurgents. Even their barracks are insufficiently equipped with defense perimeters as there is hardly any budget even for sandbags. Do you know that the food budget for Dahan Praan, the paramilitary elite forces used in the most active areas is only 8 Baht per meal per person, 2 meals a day, which is 16 Baht per day only!

Nothing really changed for them at all - the budget raise never really trickled down. But it does enable to buy nice toys, where there is ample opportunity to siphon vast sums.

[A_Traveller]

Couple of references for this, from Human Rights Watch, one from Global Security.org and a link to the UN World Drug Report 2007.

... Between February and August 2003, over 51,000 arrests and 2000 extra-judicial deaths have occurred, causing worry among human rights watchers. Thaksin is still unsatisfied with the results and has threatened harsh action against Wa drug traffickers if Burma does not act. In addition, scandals have also brought police corruption to the public forefront; an issue in which Thaksin must contend. After five months of closure, borders reopened with Burma, but differences remain over boundary alignment and the handling of ethnic rebels, refugees, and illegal cross-border activities, especially illicit transfer of drugs.... Thailand’s War on Drugs “victory” is temporary. PM Thaksin’s campaign has decimated the drug market at the local drug trafficker and street-user level, but it has not reduced cross-border trafficking or attacked the drug trade’s higher elements. Additionally, his battle against “Dark Influences” has been ineffective, with few arrests of note.

GS Link

... Thaksin announced a new round of the anti-drug campaign that began in February 2003. Promising “brutal measures” against drug traffickers, Thaksin said, “Drug dealers and traffickers are heartless and wicked. All of them must be sent to meet the guardian of hel_l, so that there will not be any drugs in the country.” ... The use of spine-chilling rhetoric to promote violence against drug suspects has been a hallmark of Thaksin’s drug policy. In January 2003, Thaksin stated, “Because drug traders are ruthless to our children, so being ruthless back to them is not a bad thing.” Wan Muhamad Nor Matha, the interior minister at the time, said of drug traffickers, “They will be put behind bars or even vanish without a trace. Who cares? They are destroying our country.” In August 2003, Thaksin ordered a “shoot to kill” policy against people suspected of smuggling methamphetamines into Thailand from neighboring Burma. ... In 2003, Thailand passed a law defining drug users as “patients” and providing rehabilitation to low-level drug offenders. Thaksin pledged to provide free treatment to 300,000 drug users while disrupting drug trafficking though tough law enforcement measures.

But the facts tell a different story. Throughout the drug war, drug users have reported beatings, arbitrary arrest and prolonged detention at the hands of Royal Thai Police. Some have been forced to sign false confessions stating that they had trafficked methamphetamine tablets. Others have escaped into hiding, or they have dropped out of drug treatment programs in order to avoid arrest or murder. Health experts fear a spike in HIV transmission as a result of injection drug users going underground and sharing blood-contaminated syringes.

HRW Link

... In February 2003, Prime Minister Thaksin declared a “war on drugs” in Thailand in apparent response to a recent boom in methamphetamines in the country. Referring to suspected drug offenders as “the scum of society” and as threats to “social and national security,” the Prime Minister issued cash incentives to police and local officials to remove thousands of drug suspects from previously prepared government “blacklists.” Within three months, some 2,275 alleged drug offenders had been shot dead in apparent extrajudicial executions. On February 24, 2003, three weeks into the “war on drugs,” the United Nations special rapporteur on extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Asma Jahagir, expressed “deep concern at reports of more than 100 deaths in Thailand in connection with a crackdown on the drug trade.” A similar alert was issued by the United States Department of State in February 2004, prompting Thaksin to label the United States “an annoying friend.” ... Thaksin’s continual reference to drug users as “patients” bears little relation to Thailand’s repressive drug polices, but seems only to be aimed at deflecting international criticism of these policies. At the July 2004 International AIDS Conference, which Thailand hosted, Thaksin announced in his plenary address that Thailand had implemented a national “harm reduction” program for injection drug users, by which he meant services such as sterile syringe exchange and methadone maintenance therapy for drug injectors. At this writing, there is not a single syringe exchange program in all of Thailand despite overwhelming evidence that such programs reduce HIV transmission. Methadone maintenance therapy is severely limited in Thailand’s drug treatment centers. What few health services that are available to injection drug users have been undermined by a climate of fear surrounding drug use and drug addiction.

HRW Open letter rebutting an award to Thaksin Link

n 2003, following the authorities’ intervention on the methamphetamine market, there was a massive increase in demand for treatment which helped eliminate a large number of potential consumers from the market.

UN World Drug Report Pages 155 & 156 mention the forceful intervention by the Thai authorities Link

Hope backgrounders are useful.

Regards

[jumnien]

Thaksin mulled government in exile

(dpa) - Former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra seriously considered setting up a government in exile after he was toppled by a military coup last year, a close aide to the deposed premier has revealed.

"Right after the coup of September 19, 2006, we planned to launch a government in exile but a telephone call from Bangkok changed all that," Jakrapob Penkair, a former deputy chief of staff to premier Thaksin, told the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand Wednesday night.

Thaksin, Thailand's controversial populist prime minister between 2001 to 2006, was deposed by a coup while he was in New York attending the United Nations General Assembly.

He was reportedly shocked by the Thai military's political blitzkrieg against him and initially attempted to block the coup by declaring a state of emergency in a Thai TV broadcast that was quickly taken off the air.

The deposed premier at that point seriously considered setting up a government in exile at the United Nations in New York, according to Jakrapob, who was a government spokesman under Thaksin's first administration.

"It was not him who came up with the idea of a government in exile," said Jakrapob. "It came from some of us, including me."

Jakrapob claimed that Thaksin's loyalists informally approached several countries to see if they would endorse a government in exile "and they said they would."

But Thaksin nixed the notion after he received a telephone call from a mysterious person in Bangkok, whom Jakrapob refused to name, and flew to London where he has remained in self-exile since.

"When the crucial decision came, even he made the decision based on the patronage system," Jakrapob told correspondents in a prepared speech on "democracy versus patronage" in Thailand.

end of article

_________

An interesting quote from today's Bangkok Post. It's very possible that a deal was struck long, long ago between Thaksin and the people we cannot name behind the coup.

Edited August 30, 2007 by sunrise07

[ColPyat]

if your numbers are correct - 300,000 into rehab, 50,000 imprisoned, then the scale would really put into context the 2,500 killed (less than 1% of all those apprehended during the first 3 months). this obviously wasn't a crazed shooting gallery mass execution type scenario like some forumers like to portray. not making an excuse for summary killings per se, just trying to understand what happened.

I believe the most important thing is to understand what happened, on all levels.

Without the killings, which i personally believe to be somewhere around 4000 to 5000 - but we will never know the exact number, i don't think that the drugwar would be any issue at all. The killings though leave a very sore spot, and should be fully investigated - and not just directed at Thaksin alone, but all contributing factors.

Right now, the drugs are coming back. What are we going to do to solve the problem without murdering so many people?

[Siripon]

Talking about Jakrapob, an Issan DJ I know invited to China as one of a delegation to meet Thaksin in exile,(always useful to have DJs on your side on the airways), recounted hearing Jakrapob pleading in a plaintive voice for funds from his boss in China.

More charming than Veera or the great doctor Weng, he was seen as their best hope for obtaining donations.

[Tony Clifton]

Talking about Jakrapob, an Issan DJ I know invited to China as one of a delegation to meet Thaksin in exile,(always useful to have DJs on your side on the airways), recounted hearing Jakrapob pleading in a plaintive voice for funds from his boss in China.

More charming than Veera or the great doctor Weng, he was seen as their best hope for obtaining donations.

I think those meetings in China are over. Surayud went there on an official visit not long ago and shortly after, it appears that Thaksin's multiple entry visa was canceled. You'd now have to tap into one of Thaksin's 8 cell phones and 20 sim cards he admitted having not long ago, unless they chose another country for their secret meetings that never were a secret once they were all spotted leaving at the airport.

[ColPyat]

Long term solutions were useless in 2003, just like recommending a better diet to patients with a high fever.

When people say "something must be done" they surely don't mean empower people, draw them into decision making process etc. etc.

And no matter how you try, demand in 2003 wasn't driven by desperation.

Drug war had wrong priorities - like bringing tons of porn into your house and at the same time trying to stop your son from masturbating.

I don't understand your position. Are you implying that Thaksin has imported all the drugs?

Because, i do not see you disagreeing with the killings at all, yes, you even would go much further and demand war against Burma?

What exactly is your problem with the Human Rights violations? So far - i don't see anything in your position that would disagree with them.

[Plus]

I can't make sense of your last sentence either.

Thaksin chose to kill so many people because it was easier than dealing with drug producers. No, he didn't import the drugs, he just let Burmese (or any other group) produce them in large quantities, specifically for Thailand's market.

Targeting production facilities would surey have been less violent than destroying human dealership network. Diplomatic pressure needed to be applied, warnings, ultimatums - it could have worked witout violence at all and actually invading the area would have been unnecessary. I suppose enough helicopters armed with missiles would have put the industry out of business in a couple of months.

We are not talking about a war with Burma. When the US destroyed Sudanese pharmaceutical factory no one called it a war (wrong target, right approach, imo).

[ColPyat]

I can't make sense of your last sentence either.

Thaksin chose to kill so many people because it was easier than dealing with drug producers. No, he didn't import the drugs, he just let Burmese (or any other group) produce them in large quantities, specifically for Thailand's market.

Targeting production facilities would surey have been less violent than destroying human dealership network. Diplomatic pressure needed to be applied, warnings, ultimatums - it could have worked witout violence at all and actually invading the area would have been unnecessary. I suppose enough helicopters armed with missiles would have put the industry out of business in a couple of months.

We are not talking about a war with Burma. When the US destroyed Sudanese pharmaceutical factory no one called it a war (wrong target, right approach, imo).

What the US can do, and what other countries can do are two completely different matters.

A few helicopters? Don't you think that these armies do not have sophisticated weapons? Read up on amphetamine production facilities - they neither need much investment nor technology, and can be built up easily again, and moved. Have you ever seen the territory?

Diplomacy? Ultimatums?

Against whom? The areas are controlled by warlords. How do issue diplomatic ultimatums against well trained and equipped armies that have never lost a war, and who have allies in the Thai army, police and civil service, and the Burmese Army as well, and long relations with the Chinese networks?

And looking at the problems faced in those areas under warlord control - these are not simple problems either. These are areas that have only recently came out of decades of war, are unstable, are, apart from North Korea nominally part of maybe the most dictatorial and underdeveloped country on earth, have a system of government that is somewhere between anarchy and feudalism, and desperately need investment and assistance. It does take time until their economy can shift from drugs and other war economies to something more modern.

Thaksin let the Burmese produce drugs?!

Have you any evidence of this outlandish claim other than the rumor mill?

I am tired of this attachment of guilt for mostly homegrown social problems to the evil outsiders and foreigners, and then finding the boogie man Thaksin who now personifies all that is wrong in Thai society.

[tijnebijn]

I also think it is very unlikely thaksin has anything to do with the drug trade.

he already was a very wealthy person you know.... And simply does not need a couple of million more

from the drug trade , even further he probably would have gone even richer without that trade in Thailand.

So that is bullocks in my opinion.

For the man in brown it is much more likely . they have the connections , likewise thoughts and ideals .

I think in that corner those rumours will emerge as fact and reality .

Worse in my opinion are the disappearances of vast jungle and trees , again the man in brown , already a fact.

[jumnien]

It's hilarious to thing that the men in uniforms or any of their self-appointed "independent" commissions are going to "bring Thaksin to account" for anything. They will use all weapons against their political opponents in order to stay at the trough and justify the military destruction of democracy.

[Siripon]

It's hilarious to thing that the men in uniforms or any of their self-appointed "independent" commissions are going to "bring Thaksin to account" for anything. They will use all weapons against their political opponents in order to stay at the trough and justify the military destruction of democracy.

After your distasteful reference on another thread to having sex in a swimming pool with an overweight 57 year old lady from Argentina I'm beginning to realise your obsessions with juntas and militaries.

Perhaps your relationship fell apart due to influence from the junta at the time; your weapon may have been no match for their superior fire power.

[Tony Clifton]

Thaksin couldn't afford even a micro-war against Burma, not even dismantle a single meth lab as he was boldly and obviously personally doing business with the regime, also using the country's equipment, not his own, to transport his whole circus there. Of course, when Thai journalists asked what was discussed with the generals, he refused to reveal anything at all because there was nothing but personal business taking place.

[ColPyat]

Thaksin couldn't afford even a micro-war against Burma, not even dismantle a single meth lab as he was boldly and obviously personally doing business with the regime, also using the country's equipment, not his own, to transport his whole circus there. Of course, when Thai journalists asked what was discussed with the generals, he refused to reveal anything at all because there was nothing but personal business taking place.

I think you are confusing and oversimplifying some issues here.

First of all - most of Thailand is doing business with Burma. The "constructive engagement policy" was set by the NSC long before Thaksin appeared on the political stage. There is way too much money to be made in Burma. Lets forget for a moment the morality of the issue, as morals have nothing to do with it, and both isolation and constructive engagement have strong arguments that speak for themselves.

Fact is - Thaksin was not the first Thai who makes business with Burma, and not the only one either.

Secondly, the direct involvement of the Burmese generals in the drug business is most likely a bit more complicated. The areas and territories of the areas in which drugs are grown and manufactured are mostly not under their control. There are very complex and sensitive issues at bay. The Junta has made peace with most minority armies, none of the details of the contracts are known as they were dealt out personally with Khin Nyunt and the leaders of the minorities. Not much at all is known about the inner workings of the Burmese Junta anyhow.

One thing though is clear - the Wa, where most amphetamines are supposed to be manufactured have never been beaten by the Burmese Army, and Burma would under no circumstances go to war with the Wa. Better let them do what they want in their mostly autonomous region, and maybe have a chance to personally profit as well.

The Wa though need money. Most of their economy is based on logging (and now Wa state proper is mostly deforested), Gems, Gamling, and of course drugs (and drug taxes levied). There is hardly any industry, and most investment comes from China. The UN has disputed drug replacement programs going on there, and main funder is actually the US (which is ironic, because most of the Wa leadership has a price on their head levied by the US).

But it takes time - the Wa need to build up their country, they need to have a new generation of semi educated who can do that. And drugs cannot be replaced that quickly. The country of the Wa would collapse. Their present leadership is appallingly uneducated, and they know it. They can't go anywhere other than China and Rangoon, they have been in war since they were children, have been completely isolated since forever, and made their first contacts with the outside world in the early 90's.

There are a few schools mostly financed by the Chinese. But it does take time until there is a somewhat educated generation coming up.

Their last sacrificial headhunts were in the late 60's/early 70's.

This area is hundreds of years behind. Ancient tribal villages, the worst roads in the world, unaccessible during rain season, but with the most modern SUV's and pick up trucks, warlords, remnants of the Red Guards, armies, casinos in every town, an appalling medieval health system. You have even Thai Katoeys working there in cabaret shows, and Thai gem cutters and polishers, and lots of Yunnanese prostitutes in the town brothels.

It is a very difficult situation, and very sensitive. All along before, during and after the drug war there were battles between Wa drug caravans and the Thai army and Dahan Praan. But they can't be too publicized, and definitely cannot be too large scale. Too large military actions would force the Burmese generals into a war with either the Wa (which the Wa would most likely win), or the Thais, which nobody wants.

There is no way to "simply" bomb or destroy the labs under control of the different Wa factions without risking a highly destructive war.

Edited August 30, 2007 by ColPyat

[jumnien]

It's hilarious to thing that the men in uniforms or any of their self-appointed "independent" commissions are going to "bring Thaksin to account" for anything. They will use all weapons against their political opponents in order to stay at the trough and justify the military destruction of democracy.

After your distasteful reference on another thread to having sex in a swimming pool with an overweight 57 year old lady from Argentina I'm beginning to realise your obsessions with juntas and militaries.

Perhaps your relationship fell apart due to influence from the junta at the time; your weapon may have been no match for their superior fire power.

Actually, she might have been Brazilian, it was more than 25 years ago. As I remember our relationship ended when we had exhausted our supply of sweet white wine, we were spent, and well, the enormous inflatable dinosaur was no longer inflated. I do appreciate your injection of a bit of humor in an otherwise dreary thread! Cheers!

[sriracha john]

Thai Burmese relations are strained, and such attacks can easily escalate into something Thailand might easily lose badly.

Which I would agree with and is attributable to defense budget cuts during his entire tenure that left the armed forces dilapidated and weak, a situation that is now only being corrected... not unexpectedly to howls of protest.

The cuts already started straight after the '92 event, as far as i can recall, not just under Thaksin.

The problem in the Thai army and associated paramilitary forces is less the budget, but the top heavy organizational structure and corruption. Even today with the raised budget - you will find that combat forces are still embarrassingly badly equipped, and only nice toys are bought. Many units in active combat in the south, for example, have no morphine for their wounded even, and no, or insufficient bullet proof vests. Many soldiers opt not to wear bullet proof vests at all even if supplied, as the ones supplied do not protect against AK 47 bullets, some do protect only against shrapnel, the main weapon used by the insurgents. Even their barracks are insufficiently equipped with defense perimeters as there is hardly any budget even for sandbags. Do you know that the food budget for Dahan Praan, the paramilitary elite forces used in the most active areas is only 8 Baht per meal per person, 2 meals a day, which is 16 Baht per day only!

Nothing really changed for them at all - the budget raise never really trickled down. But it does enable to buy nice toys, where there is ample opportunity to siphon vast sums.

It can take years to recover from all the years of under-funding. 11 months is not an adequate time-frame to expect an armed forces to be fully stocked with modern equipment and all necessary protective wear, medicines, etc.

[jumnien]

Thai Burmese relations are strained, and such attacks can easily escalate into something Thailand might easily lose badly.

Which I would agree with and is attributable to defense budget cuts during his entire tenure that left the armed forces dilapidated and weak, a situation that is now only being corrected... not unexpectedly to howls of protest.

The cuts already started straight after the '92 event, as far as i can recall, not just under Thaksin.

The problem in the Thai army and associated paramilitary forces is less the budget, but the top heavy organizational structure and corruption. Even today with the raised budget - you will find that combat forces are still embarrassingly badly equipped, and only nice toys are bought. Many units in active combat in the south, for example, have no morphine for their wounded even, and no, or insufficient bullet proof vests. Many soldiers opt not to wear bullet proof vests at all even if supplied, as the ones supplied do not protect against AK 47 bullets, some do protect only against shrapnel, the main weapon used by the insurgents. Even their barracks are insufficiently equipped with defense perimeters as there is hardly any budget even for sandbags. Do you know that the food budget for Dahan Praan, the paramilitary elite forces used in the most active areas is only 8 Baht per meal per person, 2 meals a day, which is 16 Baht per day only!

Nothing really changed for them at all - the budget raise never really trickled down. But it does enable to buy nice toys, where there is ample opportunity to siphon vast sums.

It can take years to recover from all the years of under-funding. 11 months is not an adequate time-frame to expect an armed forces to be fully stocked with modern equipment and all necessary protective wear, medicines, etc.

...and seaside villas!

[Plus]

I don't think destrying yaba labs in Wa territory would have become a humanitarian issue and I don't think they would have gone to war with Thailand over clearly illegal industry. Two-three destroyed factories and producers would lay low and stop production.

That's the worst that would have happened, after every other way of stopping the production failed. I'm sure military has given it a thought and would have come up with all possible outcomes, if asked.

It remains a highly hypothetical scenario because Thaksin's administration had no intention of confronting drug producers.

"Oh, they have guns, let us kill our own people instead, they are not armed."

Thedude asked a legitimate question - what were the alternatives? Were deaths of 2,500 people unavoidable? It's the question that popped up in every Thai head - what else would YOU do?

I'm saying that there would have been fewer casualties if Thailand went after producers, not distributors. There would have been NO casualties if Thai police and paramilitary units didn't get a green light on killing people. Would fear of arrest be as effective deterrent as realisation that it's a life or death issue?

Idea of politically empowering people cannot even be called an alternative.

[hammered]

Just a few comments. To think one member of Asean is going to bomb another member is quite outlandish. Thaksin, Sonthi whoeveer are not going to attack a fellow Asean member. Period. Both Thaksin and the Junta also have quite a close relationship with Burma. There is also something called the constructibve engagement policy if I remember correctly.

It is also wrong to claim that Mr. Thaksin was involved in the drug trade. There is not even a rumor of this. Of course several of his backers, fellow MPs and canvassers are not so clean in this area but the same canbe said of several other parties, the military and definately the police. Take a look at the history of Northern Thaialnd and you will find that the power brokers up their have often been linked to drug trade and human trafficking. Sad but true. Any party wanting to control the upper North of Thailand will have links to these kind of people, but I would not include Mr. Thaksin as a drug trader or human trafficker. Talking of a history of the North, it is not that long ago when many parts were under the control of the KMT(?) and other armed groups, and at times an almost war like situation existed in the golden triangle area. The bombing of a neighbor over drugs now being proposed on this board was a reality back then. Are people really proposing a Bushesque war on drugs should involve military attacks onneighbors. By the way as with the war on terror something that many forget is that a war on drugs can never be won unless of course all drugs are legalized.

The so called war on drugs did involve serious human rights abuses and should in a fair world be fully investigated and those that abused their positions should be held accountable just as drug dealers should also be held accountable. There is no justification in resorting to death squad action. Period.

[Plus]

Just a few comments. To think one member of Asean is going to bomb another member is quite outlandish.

Shelling each other's territory is nothing new in that area. At one point 3rd army commander was transferred for retaliating against Burmese attacking Thai territory, that was before the drug war, in Thaksin's early days.

There were few editorials on the matter but nothing came out of it. It's "normal".

I don't think Thailand would risk a serious diplomatical problem if it destroyed production labs.

The ultimatum part is very easy - either you shut them down or we will, by any means necessary.

Labs and factories are not paddy fields, they are not spread over thousands of square kilometers, they are easy to target and you don't need to occupy and guard them afterwards.

[hammered]

Just a few comments. To think one member of Asean is going to bomb another member is quite outlandish.

Shelling each other's territory is nothing new in that area. At one point 3rd army commander was transferred for retaliating against Burmese attacking Thai territory, that was before the drug war, in Thaksin's early days.

There were few editorials on the matter but nothing came out of it. It's "normal".

I don't think Thailand would risk a serious diplomatical problem if it destroyed production labs.

The ultimatum part is very easy - either you shut them down or we will, by any means necessary.

Labs and factories are not paddy fields, they are not spread over thousands of square kilometers, they are easy to target and you don't need to occupy and guard them afterwards.

Exactly what you are proposing has been tried with little success by various Latin American militaries often with special force support by the US. The Labs needed to produce drugs are not exacly sophisitcated and as one goes down another can be put into action in a matter of days if not hours. At best these kind of actions look good to the audience back home when showed on the news. They also often end up in collateral damage as the death of innocents gets labelled these days, which brings us back to human rights abuses, and talking of human rights abuses what we accuse Thaksin of is exactly what we end up doing if we decide to bomb faclilities that we label as drug labs, ie kill people with no trial.

[Plus]

Bombing them is a last resort if nothing else works. Closing down factories is not supposed to be a violent action. It's possible to make a deal where people who control the territory make sure it's not used for drug production.

It could be argued that destroying production facilities in Latin America is an effective ways or reducing drug flow. Americans haven't given up on that, have they? They must have seen some results.

There is an advantage - yaba labs are just across the border, not thousands of miles away in Columbian jungle.

It's also is not as bad as in Afghanistan where they have no other way but destroying the poppy fields.

[hammered]

Bombing them is a last resort if nothing else works. Closing down factories is not supposed to be a violent action. It's possible to make a deal where people who control the territory make sure it's not used for drug production.

It could be argued that destroying production facilities in Latin America is an effective ways or reducing drug flow. Americans haven't given up on that, have they? They must have seen some results.

There is an advantage - yaba labs are just across the border, not thousands of miles away in Columbian jungle.

It's also is not as bad as in Afghanistan where they have no other way but destroying the poppy fields.

It looks like they are doing something even though it doesnt interupt the flow of drugs

[Plus]

"Drug problem" is a system, it has different parts that play different roles.

Some parts of this system are more visible, some are hidden, some are more vulnerable, some are more critical.

Dealer network is one part that can stop system from functioning, at least for a while, production facilities is another. Transport routes is yet another part.

And of course nothing would exist if there was no demand.

- Decreasing demand is difficult and won't produce any short term results.

- Wiping out dealer network resulted in thousands of killings.

- Blocking transport routes proved to be ineffective.

No one tried stopping production.

It could have worked better.

[ColPyat]

I don't think destrying yaba labs in Wa territory would have become a humanitarian issue and I don't think they would have gone to war with Thailand over clearly illegal industry. Two-three destroyed factories and producers would lay low and stop production.

Have you taken the time and read my post on the situation of Wa state?

What you propose is simply outlandish.

[ColPyat]

It can take years to recover from all the years of under-funding. 11 months is not an adequate time-frame to expect an armed forces to be fully stocked with modern equipment and all necessary protective wear, medicines, etc.

The Thai Army is everything else than underfunded - much of the funding is traditionally wasted through corruption, and siphoning off budgets.

[A_Traveller]

One might suggest that having an Army of about 250,000 men with some 700 Generals might not be conducive to good fiscal performance either.

Regards

[kmart]

It can take years to recover from all the years of under-funding. 11 months is not an adequate time-frame to expect an armed forces to be fully stocked with modern equipment and all necessary protective wear, medicines, etc.

The Thai Army is everything else than underfunded - much of the funding is traditionally wasted through corruption, and siphoning off budgets.

.... buying sub-standard and defective equipment / ordinance at enormous prices; looting huge amounts of natural resources; running extortion; drugs and guns rackets; etc.... Pretty much a parasitical creature living on the backs of Thai taxpayers really...

[ColPyat]

One might suggest that having an Army of about 250,000 men with some 700 Generals might not be conducive to good fiscal performance either.

Regards

The situation in the Army here is rather ridiculous. While you have Generals and Colonels regularly living in lavish luxury they couldn't possibly afford from the salaries, the conditions under which combat units often have to life and work are beyond believe - regularly their food allowance does not come through for months, and they have to resort to scavenging for food in the highly sensitive and dangerous border areas they are stationed in. More often than not the unit and company leaders have to spent their personal salaries on necessities that should be supplied by their headquarters, but disappeared somewhere along the way.

Here in Bangkok you have countless soldiers who are by name soldiers, but in reality are working full time in their private businesses, both legal, and illegal ones as well. Many protection rackets are run by military, such as nightclubs, the van services, and hired thugs to destroy markets.