Bringing Thaksin To Account

[the swagman]

Coming in on this a bit late but for my 2 cents worth.

I have to agree with both Johpa and ColPyat.

Jopha for his post on what the rural folk of Thailand say concerning the drug war. There was and always has been a large drug trade in this country. The drug war was actually applauded by most of the Thai people I know.

Drugs were becoming a very visible and hasty influence among the youth of the country, particularly rural youth. The war on drugs caused the availability of drugs to lessen and major producers were forced to find new outlets and new transportation routes.

Among parents, academics and social thinkers it was one of the main concerns for this country.

To ColPyat, your point about the freedom of the press is spot on. Thailand really has never had a totally free press, much like the rest of the world. And just because there is a new military government doesn't mean that will change overnight. The military are in power, they are not saints and many of them are dusting off their suits to attend boardmeetings and so on.

ColPyat also made the point that the prblem was not entirely Taksins fault but lay in the system that has been in place for many years prior to his government. He dared to change it. And by doing so created a lot of enemies.

Lets see. The fat lady hasn't warmed up yet.

[pete_r]

Coming in on this a bit late but for my 2 cents worth.

[...]

ColPyat also made the point that the problem was not entirely Taksins fault but lay in the system that has been in place for many years prior to his government. He dared to change it. And by doing so created a lot of enemies.

Lets see. The fat lady hasn't warmed up yet.

That's two clear and concise cents.

Thaksin was changing the system, and shaking up a lot of upstairs people in their comfortable habits. It may be the main reason behind the coup, before the corruption accusations etc.

One example I know first hand is the ongoing implementation of a performance-based promotion system for university lecturers (ajarns). In the old system a lecturer had to publish a certain amount of scientific articles to get promoted to assistant professor, then associate professor. Once he got there, he could spend the rest of his career only teaching (typically 20 hours per week including preparation of the lectures), with no more research activities. With the new system, a newly promoted assistant/associate professor must keep publishing every year to keep the title, meaning he must keep doing research.

That's good for the development of the country (think Japan or Silicon valley), but it means a lot of middle aged assistant/associate professors are faced with the prospect of demotion and salary reduction, unless they shake themselves up and go back to their labs. Are they happy about it? Of course not. Are they anti-Thaksin? Oh yes, they are. Is it because of their democratic principles or because of the loss of privilege? Maybe both, we can argue about that, but I'll bet the loss of privilege is the main reason. Nobody likes to be hurt in the pocket!

[Plus]

Surely Thaksin was changing the system, but why assume he was changing it for the better? Initially his changes were welcome - "think new act new", restructuring bureacracy, improving government serivices, "ua arthorn" - everyone loved it. He got a free hand at it for five years, he had a lot of trust and a lot of support.

Eventually people realised that his changes were for his benefit only, not for the country. How many TRT founding members are still there? I think only about half. How many have left completely disillusioned with the way Thaksin abused their ideas and trust?

As for press freedom - Thailand has clearly stepped back under Thaksin in this department. Even if Thai media have never been truly free one must recongineze different shades of gray and Thaksin's years were darker than most.

But of course for his defenders it's very handy to declare everything have always been, is, and will always be only black.

Colpyat, taking it issue by issue, you disapprove of only Thaksin's drug war and defend him on every other policy. That's the impression I formed over the past couple of weeks. I don't know if you have noticed it yourself. Maybe it's just because you tirelessly attack all Thaksin's opponents on all issues, even for drug killings, btw.

[ColPyat]

Colpyat, taking it issue by issue, you disapprove of only Thaksin's drug war and defend him on every other policy. That's the impression I formed over the past couple of weeks. I don't know if you have noticed it yourself. Maybe it's just because you tirelessly attack all Thaksin's opponents on all issues, even for drug killings, btw.

I don't attack every Thaksin opponent. I only attack the simple minds who have difficulties to differentiate, who don't understand that Thaksin was the lesser problem than the underlying system here that only made it possible for him to come up, who don't understand the serious faults of the previous governments that have led to Thaksin being elected. That's the difference.

A few further policies of Thaksin's policies i have openly criticised here on the board:

-The promotion of planting rubber in the north and Isaarn, which i view as catastrophic

-the practise of the village loans, which did not take into account the lack of money management skills of the people those loans were intended for.

-his inability to perform a proper landreform, including reposessing and redistributing land of the usual wealthy families

-his infringement on freedom of the media, which only got worse under present government

Get it?

[Siripon]

The colonel clearly enjoys arguing, he once resigned from this site but couldn't resist coming back in spite of implying all his adversaries are idiots.

I'm wondering why you regard the rubber plantations in Issan and the north as foolish?

Thee have been plantations in Issan for over 20 years and with the recent increase in the price of rubber due to China and India's rapid economic progress,the tappers are sitting happy.

[sriracha john]

[pete_r]

-his inability to perform a proper landreform, including reposessing and redistributing land of the usual wealthy families

I remember reading months ago that Thaksin wanted a higher tax on unused land, to encourage big landowners to put these lands on the market. That's another example of change that upstairs people didn't appreciate.

[Plus]

His cabinet were the biggest and richest landowners in the country, too.

[pete_r]

His cabinet were the biggest and richest landowners in the country, too.

I thought they were the richest businessmen.

[Johpa]

The politician who stands head and shoulders above the rest (that I have heard anyway) in terms of sheer quality of English is the rising Democrat Korn Chavakanij.Abhisit's also very good but they I suppose have both had the advantage of being educated at elite schools in England.

I recently attended a speech by Sondhi Limthongkul, and his English was nearly fluent, even at the idiomatic level. Although he claims he is not a politician, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck........

[Plus]

He likes the spotlight but he hasn't shown any political ambitions even now, when it's the best time to capitalise on his PAD success.

He didn't even vote in the last elections - legally blocking himself from any elected office.

[OlRedEyes]

Anybody who still thinks taksin ever did anything other than for himself is living in cloud cuckoo land. He even ruined his immediate family's future here in Thailand for his own gain.

[ColPyat]

The colonel clearly enjoys arguing, he once resigned from this site but couldn't resist coming back in spite of implying all his adversaries are idiots.

I'm wondering why you regard the rubber plantations in Issan and the north as foolish?

Thee have been plantations in Issan for over 20 years and with the recent increase in the price of rubber due to China and India's rapid economic progress,the tappers are sitting happy.

And our dear siripon is hardly as informed as he pretends to.

Even his own favourite party - the Democrats - have attacked TRT in the cabinet on the rubber issue, i believe it was in 2002 or 2004. And i have agreed, and still do strongly agree with that criticism.

To make it simple:

Rubber is a world market commodity. Prices fall and rise not according to Thaksin's promises, but according to worldwide market forces. Therefore it is highly dangerous to recommend small scale farmers to plant rubber, a plant that even in the best conditions takes at least 7 years to harvest first. It is impossible to predict the market in that time frame. Additionally, rubber needs huge investments over that period in high intensity chemical fertilisation.

Thaksin has given soft loans to farmers planting rubber. And as you can see with the axing of the rice subsidies, it is highly dangerous to rely on the promises on one PM that might be ousted one day, as has happened, and hope for a continuation of the same policies by the following government.

Additionally, the rubber scheme was promoted widely without taking in consideration local conditions, such as soil quality and access to water. In many areas of the north and the northeast the agriculture is depending on one monsoon, hardly enough for growing rubber successfully. In our village in the north, many farmers switched during the rubber mania, and went broke. Their plants did not grow for lack of water, the wrong soil, low quality seedlings, they ran out of money for fertilizer, etc.

Lack of the particular knowledge that planting rubber needs plays also a huge role. The rubber scheme was another agribusiness scheme invented by urban based businessmen, in which the risk lay with the farmers.

Get the picture?

Even worse, the rubber mania led to the old "influental figures" encroaching on forest land, cutting forest and planting rubber instead, and so severaly damaging the already badly damaged forests in Thailand.

I wonder though, why our dear well informed siripon is competely ignorant of those issues?

Edited November 28, 2006 by ColPyat

[marshbags]

From todays Nation.

2006 : Last updated 5:16 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Child victims of the war on drugs demand:

Ban Mae Maeh School director Saneh Jai-ut can never bring himself to speak the truth when his students ask him expectantly: "Have you had any word from my parents?"

Most of the 136 boarding-school students here come from families torn apart during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs.

Some of the children are yet to learn the painful fact that their parents are either in jail for drug offences or were killed in the crackdown.

"The best thing I can say is, 'Yes, your parents ask you to be good and study hard. They say they will come to pick you up when they have time'," Saneh said.

Located in the remote hill country of Chiang Dao district, the school is inaccessible by road and cellular telephone signal.

The government's Basic Education Commission provides needy schools with a daily food allowance of Bt6 per student. This meagre amount is not enough for Ban Mae Maeh School. It must serve three meals a day - not just lunches like others. "Boiled rice and boiled cabbage are our main dishes," a Grade-6 student at the school said.

Most students do not return to their homes during school breaks because they have no one to return to, he explained.

A young girl said she missed her home but had no idea how she could return by herself.

"Usually, I ask my headmaster to call my parents. But I have rarely seen any parent come to visit their children," she added.

When she first arrived, there were just 60 students but that soon doubled.

"I have shared a bedroom with 31 other girls. We take turns cooking and cleaning," she said.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the full article.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/29...es_30020256.php

These are the some of the young victims left behind by this evil vendetta.

Shame on Thaksin and his coherts and shame also on the people who are still making allowances for his actions and justifying the reasons why.

To restate why Thaksin is ultimately responsible for this henious crime.

HE WAS CEO / PREMIER AND IN TOTAL CONTROL OF ALL THE ACTIONS TAKEN WITH HIS AUTHORITY.

INDEED HE PERSONALLY SUPERVISED AND BOASTED ABOUT OVERSEEING THE ONGOING ATROCITIES VIA HIS LEADERSHIP AND STATED MANY TIMES IN THE PRESS / NEWS CHANNELS AND RADIO TALK SHOW THAT HE WAS PERSONALLY TAKING CHARGE OF THE PROGRAMME, THIS WAS TO BOOST HIS PATHETIC EGO AND SELF INTEREST.

HE USED PRECIOUS HUMAN LIFE AS PAYMENT TO FURTHER HIS STATUS AND THAT OF HIS PARTY.

THIS IS TOTALLY UNEXCUSABLE AND HAS NO PLACE IN TODAYS SOCIETY.

Well over 2,580 ( official ) murdered and then multiply this by the families left behind.

Thaksin will find his true place in history for these infamous acts along with all the other dictators already documented.

marshbags and

Edited November 29, 2006 by marshbags

[hammered]

From todays Nation.

2006 : Last updated 5:16 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Child victims of the war on drugs demand:

Ban Mae Maeh School director Saneh Jai-ut can never bring himself to speak the truth when his students ask him expectantly: "Have you had any word from my parents?"

Most of the 136 boarding-school students here come from families torn apart during the Thaksin Shinawatra government's war on drugs.

Some of the children are yet to learn the painful fact that their parents are either in jail for drug offences or were killed in the crackdown.

"The best thing I can say is, 'Yes, your parents ask you to be good and study hard. They say they will come to pick you up when they have time'," Saneh said.

Located in the remote hill country of Chiang Dao district, the school is inaccessible by road and cellular telephone signal.

The government's Basic Education Commission provides needy schools with a daily food allowance of Bt6 per student. This meagre amount is not enough for Ban Mae Maeh School. It must serve three meals a day - not just lunches like others. "Boiled rice and boiled cabbage are our main dishes," a Grade-6 student at the school said.

Most students do not return to their homes during school breaks because they have no one to return to, he explained.

A young girl said she missed her home but had no idea how she could return by herself.

"Usually, I ask my headmaster to call my parents. But I have rarely seen any parent come to visit their children," she added.

When she first arrived, there were just 60 students but that soon doubled.

"I have shared a bedroom with 31 other girls. We take turns cooking and cleaning," she said.

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the full article.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/29...es_30020256.php

These are the some of the young victims left behind by this evil vendetta.

Shame on Thaksin and his coherts and shame also on the people who are still making allowances for his actions and justifying the reasons why.

To restate why Thaksin is ultimately responsible for this henious crime.

HE WAS CEO / PREMIER AND IN TOTAL CONTROL OF ALL THE ACTIONS TAKEN WITH HIS AUTHORITY.

INDEED HE PERSONALLY SUPERVISED AND BOASTED ABOUT OVERSEEING THE ONGOING ATROCITIES VIA HIS LEADERSHIP AND STATED MANY TIMES IN THE PRESS / NEWS CHANNELS AND RADIO TALK SHOW THAT HE WAS PERSONALLY TAKING CHARGE OF THE PROGRAMME, THIS WAS TO BOOST HIS PATHETIC EGO AND SELF INTEREST.

HE USED PRECIOUS HUMAN LIFE AS PAYMENT TO FURTHER HIS STATUS AND THAT OF HIS PARTY.

THIS IS TOTALLY UNEXCUSABLE AND HAS NO PLACE IN TODAYS SOCIETY.

Well over 2,580 ( official ) murdered and then multiply this by the families left behind.

Thaksin will find his true place in history for these infamous acts along with all the other dictators already documented.

marshbags and

Thank you for bringing us back onto topic.

[Siripon]

The colonel clearly enjoys arguing, he once resigned from this site but couldn't resist coming back in spite of implying all his adversaries are idiots.

I'm wondering why you regard the rubber plantations in Issan and the north as foolish?

Thee have been plantations in Issan for over 20 years and with the recent increase in the price of rubber due to China and India's rapid economic progress,the tappers are sitting happy.

And our dear siripon is hardly as informed as he pretends to.

Even his own favourite party - the Democrats - have attacked TRT in the cabinet on the rubber issue, i believe it was in 2002 or 2004. And i have agreed, and still do strongly agree with that criticism.

To make it simple:

Rubber is a world market commodity. Prices fall and rise not according to Thaksin's promises, but according to worldwide market forces. Therefore it is highly dangerous to recommend small scale farmers to plant rubber, a plant that even in the best conditions takes at least 7 years to harvest first. It is impossible to predict the market in that time frame. Additionally, rubber needs huge investments over that period in high intensity chemical fertilisation.

Thaksin has given soft loans to farmers planting rubber. And as you can see with the axing of the rice subsidies, it is highly dangerous to rely on the promises on one PM that might be ousted one day, as has happened, and hope for a continuation of the same policies by the following government.

Additionally, the rubber scheme was promoted widely without taking in consideration local conditions, such as soil quality and access to water. In many areas of the north and the northeast the agriculture is depending on one monsoon, hardly enough for growing rubber successfully. In our village in the north, many farmers switched during the rubber mania, and went broke. Their plants did not grow for lack of water, the wrong soil, low quality seedlings, they ran out of money for fertilizer, etc.

Lack of the particular knowledge that planting rubber needs plays also a huge role. The rubber scheme was another agribusiness scheme invented by urban based businessmen, in which the risk lay with the farmers.

Get the picture?

Even worse, the rubber mania led to the old "influental figures" encroaching on forest land, cutting forest and planting rubber instead, and so severaly damaging the already badly damaged forests in Thailand.

I wonder though, why our dear well informed siripon is competely ignorant of those issues?

Why do you think I'm ignorant of these issues?

Rubber plantations have been in Issan for 20 years or more, they've certainly survived and flourished on one rainy season per year, indeed too much rain cuts output as any southerner wil tell you.

A lot of farmers in Issan are switching to either eucalyptus or rubber, if the trees are good quality I think it's a wise move,providing they can tolerate the unsociable working hours. They've seen their neighbours raking it in with the huge demand from China and India.

The difference with rice is Thaksin deliberately overpriced rice by 20 to 30% to please the farmers but of course couldn't then sell it on the international market.

The catch was rubber's promotion by TRT and CP, linked by marriage to one of Thaksin's ministers.

The rash promise of a huge number of seedlings which they were unable to fulfill, plus the handing out of free seedlings prior the election to win votes without quality checks meant many farmers were duped.

And 7 years is a long time to wait.

Soil checks and water supply are factors any farmer would take into consideration.

I wonder how much rubber production has fallen in the deep south over the last 3 years?

[ColPyat]

A lot of farmers in Issan are switching to either eucalyptus or rubber, if the trees are good quality I think it's a wise move,providing they can tolerate the unsociable working hours.

Eucalyptus is the worst tree that can be planted. It loweres the ground water level, and it's leaves are a natural herbizide and destroy the soil for a long time in the future.

Yes, many farmers plant eucalyptus, and destroy their own, and their neighbor's land. This is one of the catastrophic agrischemes of the 80s.

[Siripon]

A lot of farmers in Issan are switching to either eucalyptus or rubber, if the trees are good quality I think it's a wise move,providing they can tolerate the unsociable working hours.

Eucalyptus is the worst tree that can be planted. It loweres the ground water level, and it's leaves are a natural herbizide and destroy the soil for a long time in the future.

Yes, many farmers plant eucalyptus, and destroy their own, and their neighbor's land. This is one of the catastrophic agrischemes of the 80s.

They plant eucalyptus because it requires little attention and produces off-shoots, resulting in new trees. And it only takes 3 years.

It's big right now and will continue to be so long as the demand for paper is there.

[ColPyat]

A lot of farmers in Issan are switching to either eucalyptus or rubber, if the trees are good quality I think it's a wise move,providing they can tolerate the unsociable working hours.

Eucalyptus is the worst tree that can be planted. It loweres the ground water level, and it's leaves are a natural herbizide and destroy the soil for a long time in the future.

Yes, many farmers plant eucalyptus, and destroy their own, and their neighbor's land. This is one of the catastrophic agrischemes of the 80s.

They plant eucalyptus because it requires little attention and produces off-shoots, resulting in new trees. And it only takes 3 years.

It's big right now and will continue to be so long as the demand for paper is there.

And it leaves a destroyed land.

The exact opposite to "sittakit por pueang". Funny that you seem to have no problem with this.

[Siripon]

A lot of farmers in Issan are switching to either eucalyptus or rubber, if the trees are good quality I think it's a wise move,providing they can tolerate the unsociable working hours.

Eucalyptus is the worst tree that can be planted. It loweres the ground water level, and it's leaves are a natural herbizide and destroy the soil for a long time in the future.

Yes, many farmers plant eucalyptus, and destroy their own, and their neighbor's land. This is one of the catastrophic agrischemes of the 80s.

They plant eucalyptus because it requires little attention and produces off-shoots, resulting in new trees. And it only takes 3 years.

It's big right now and will continue to be so long as the demand for paper is there.

And it leaves a destroyed land.

The exact opposite to "sittakit por pueang". Funny that you seem to have no problem with this.

I never said I supported eucalyptus, ' if they can tolerate the unsociable hours' obviously refers to the tapping at night of rubber.

I agree about the destructive effects of eucalyptus, I was merely pointing out its current popularity.

Settakit por piang, self sufficiency economy, is common sense.

Don't spend beyond your means, only take on debt if you can pay it back, it's not my position to infer but perhaps there's an implication that consumerism is not the be-all and end -all of life. something that modern Thais have not always grasped.

I'll always remember Chalerm Youbanrung boasting on TV how his Versace shirts cost 30,000 baht each, as if this was an achievement!

[ColPyat]

Settakit por piang, self sufficiency economy, is common sense.

In terms of small scale agriculture i definately agree that "settakit por piang" is the only way for those farmers to survive until their children have maybe the chance to finish school and learn a profession. We have been doing that system on our farm, and have been far more successful, even in financial terms, than the surrounding farmers who used high intensity fertilisation. Now, many of those farmers are switching to "sittakit por piang" after having seen over the years how well we have been doing, even managed to make small profits when others have lost money on their harvests in bad years like this and the last.

The beauty of the original "sittakit por piang" for small scale farmers is that it contains simple and clear definitions and guidelines based on logic and common sense, easy to follow especially by undereducated farmers with lack of skills such as money management skills.

Unfortunately what is now promoted as "sittakit por piang" as a national economic policy completely lacks those clear guidelines, and is only based on religion and ideology, and therefore causes confusion not just with investors and foreign trade partners of Thailand, but inside Thailand as well.

[marshbags]

I,d like to politely ask several posters who are intent on hyjacking this thread which is supposed to be about " Extra Judicial Killings." to get back on topic...........or please go to the another suitable debate elsewhere on the forum.

You are now consistantly, " OFF TOPIC." ( For reference most posts between 133 to 141 are way off as anyone can see and not relevant at all. )

The later part of this thread seems to be going onto economic issues which should be in another thread and do not have any relevance to the topics intention / objective.

For reference most posts between 133 to 141 are way off as anyone can see and as highlighted by Hammered.

As the topic is a serious one started to highlight / debate this could you please show RESPECT to the innocents invovled in this despicable crime by posting them elsewhere.

Thank you and let us keep the discussion going to enable it to be kept in the prominent position it deserves.

As a note of the duplicity that the TRT are capable of, may i quote a paragraph from an article which is relevant to the whole issue of this debate and in my humble opinion highlights their hypocrisy to the full.

The following statement is gross in it,s context considering not one of those responsible for the thousands of official / unofficial murders and their murderers from the top / down, cared one iota about guilt or gave the victims a chance to explain /protest their innocence.

Thu, November 30, 2006 : Last updated 5:16 am (Thai local time)

THAI TALK

New constitution debate: the more things change....

Part quoted:-

Pongthep, who heads Thai Rak Thai's defence team, said the party trusted the nine Constitution Tribunal judges and hoped it would receive justice.

However, it had changed the facts for its defence as legal and institutional circumstances had changed following the military coup on September 19. It would tell the court the investigation by the Election Commission sub-committee led by Nam Yimyaem was unfair, as it found Thai Rak Thai guilty without giving it the chance to explain itself.

Unquote.

Should you wish to read the entire article then please go to the following url :-

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/11/30...on_30020308.php

Although the article could be posted in another thread that is currently running, it raises points that some of the off topic posters are intent on debating that are relevant also.

In my humble opinion.

I would respectfully request that this thread is kept open and not closed due to unrelated posts ect.

please mods, and editing posts that are possibly intent on closing it.

marshbags

Edited November 30, 2006 by marshbags

[hammered]

Trying to get this back on theme, there is something that needs to be said on the topic that so far has not been addressed. In the twenty years I have been in Thailand no government has killed as many of its own people as the Thaksin government. Even the largely reviled Suchinda government's killings were an order of magnitude less although they were appalling.

The killings under Mr. Thaksin are not explained by it is the system that is bad not Mr. Thaksin. The killings are not excused by some schemes that in the short term benefit some of the poor. The killings are not excused because they were popular. Basically the grossest infringements of human rights in certainly the twenty years I have been in Thailand occured under the Thaksin government. It really is that simple, and there should be no reason for anyone who believes in human rights to disagree, or to try and excuse or spin it.

[younghusband]

Trying to get this back on theme, there is something that needs to be said on the topic that so far has not been addressed. In the twenty years I have been in Thailand no government has killed as many of its own people as the Thaksin government. Even the largely reviled Suchinda government's killings were an order of magnitude less although they were appalling.

The killings under Mr. Thaksin are not explained by it is the system that is bad not Mr. Thaksin. The killings are not excused by some schemes that in the short term benefit some of the poor. The killings are not excused because they were popular. Basically the grossest infringements of human rights in certainly the twenty years I have been in Thailand occured under the Thaksin government. It really is that simple, and there should be no reason for anyone who believes in human rights to disagree, or to try and excuse or spin it.

I agree with you and I think one must also be honest enough to say that many of those killed were involved in the drug trade (though not I think many of the big bosses).The crime was the blacklist/death squad approach and it makes no moral difference whether the victims were "innocent" or "guilty".The problem is though Thaksin must take ultimate responsibility there was widespread popular support for the policy at all levels, and I mean all levels.Thus if Thaksin was ever put on trial, a decent lawyer would be able to show this in a way that was highly embarrassing for those who still have influence.That's why a trial on this issue is unlikely.To some extent though to a lesser degree the same considerations apply to the Tak Bai incident.

[hammered]

Trying to get this back on theme, there is something that needs to be said on the topic that so far has not been addressed. In the twenty years I have been in Thailand no government has killed as many of its own people as the Thaksin government. Even the largely reviled Suchinda government's killings were an order of magnitude less although they were appalling.

The killings under Mr. Thaksin are not explained by it is the system that is bad not Mr. Thaksin. The killings are not excused by some schemes that in the short term benefit some of the poor. The killings are not excused because they were popular. Basically the grossest infringements of human rights in certainly the twenty years I have been in Thailand occured under the Thaksin government. It really is that simple, and there should be no reason for anyone who believes in human rights to disagree, or to try and excuse or spin it.

I agree with you and I think one must also be honest enough to say that many of those killed were involved in the drug trade (though not I think many of the big bosses).The crime was the blacklist/death squad approach and it makes no moral difference whether the victims were "innocent" or "guilty".The problem is though Thaksin must take ultimate responsibility there was widespread popular support for the policy at all levels, and I mean all levels.Thus if Thaksin was ever put on trial, a decent lawyer would be able to show this in a way that was highly embarrassing for those who still have influence.That's why a trial on this issue is unlikely.To some extent though to a lesser degree the same considerations apply to the Tak Bai incident.

I agree that a trial in Thailand will in all likelihood not happen. However, there are a dearth of comments that really put the killings in perspective of how bad they were, and that is what I would like to point out.

[ColPyat]

The killings under Mr. Thaksin are not explained by it is the system that is bad not Mr. Thaksin.

The killings are explained by the system being at fault, and Thaksin being a product of this system. The system allowed Thaksin to set up the drug war.

If you look from the planning stages to the execution of the killings you can clearly see a rotten system at work.

That starts from the involvement of the police and military in the drugtrade, the corruption of the courts that could not prosecute large scale dealers and allowed that way to let the drug problem in Thailand deteriorate so far that something drastic had to be done.

It continues at the establishment of the blacklists that had countless willing collaborators who knowingly what is going to happen added names to the blacklists which in many villages were openly displayed.

Most media outlets in Thailand willingly collaborated in the drugwar.

Don't forget influental and famous monks, such as Luang Por Khun, who exonerated killers by publically stating that killing drug dealers does not draw bad karma.

It goes even so far, if you carefully analyse two particular speaches, that we are not allowed to debate this in public.

What stopped the first round of killings was no intervention by higher authorities, no large demonstrations led by TRT turncoats, no military coup by present powers, but only the increasingly loud voice of the National Human Rights Commission while it still had a few teeth left.

Yes, Thaksin has to be indicted, but shifting the sole blame on Thaksin is a crop out and does not justice to what happened in the terrible first two months of the drugwar. The drugwar has to be fully investigated, otherwise the next massacre is only around the corner.

The drugwar killings were not the first such killings in Thailand. Only less than 30 years ago the communist killings were done in a very similar fashion. None of the culprits ever were punished or investigated. The collaboration of aforementioned parts of society were exactly the same as in the drugwar killings.

As long as only Thaksin is blamed, i don't believe the good intentions of this government. This way there is never going to be a reform of the system, only furthers a culture of attaching blame to the most convenient part, and at the same time white washing everybody else.

If the government would be serious with human rights, why then are the officers that ordered Tak Bai still unpunished? Yes, Tak Bai is a result of Thaksin's policy in the south, but the orders of Tak Bai were clearly given by known military officers. They are, more than two months after the "democratic reform" coup still free.

Yesterday Bangkokpundit had a very interesting article regarding the problem of Human Rights in Thailand, exposing that people now in government had all not exactly the cleanest record regarding Human Rights violations.

But, we live in a culture of make believe and re-invention here. I don't hold my hopes up that this is going to change an soon. The present dug war investigations are a political maneuver, and not an honest attempt of reform.

[Jai Dee]

I,d like to politely ask... <snipped for brevity> ... intent on closing it.

marshbags

Agreed.

Please stay on topic folks and take other subject matter to a different thread.

[marshbags]

General news >> Friday December 01, 2006

NARCOTICS SURGE IN YOUNG USERS

Drug use on the rise as supplies keep flowing

SUBIN KHEUNKAEW

The Office of the Narcotics Control Board (ONCB) has warned of a rise in drug users, particularly among younger people. ONCB secretary-general Kitti Limchaikij said yesterday the War on Drugs under the previous Thaksin Shinawatra government was not a complete success as previously claimed.

Aerial photos and ground surveys found opium plantations in northern Thailand had expanded to cover 1,000 rai, up from 600-700 rai some five years ago. Authorities are also expecting a huge amount of heroin and speed pills to be smuggled across Thailand's borders.

Please go to the following url for the full article.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/01Dec2006_news15.php

How sad that all those lives where exterminated and once again it just highlights that the main culprits where left to continue their vile trade by courtesy of the CEO Thaksin / ISOC Director.

For further confirmation as to his role as Director ICOP in supervising the way this mass murder was conducted can be found in another article in same section of the general news and i part quote:-

MILITARY

All security agencies to be put under new Isoc structure

POST REPORTERS

The army plans to put the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc) back in full charge of security affairs, with a new structure modelled on the US Homeland Security Department. Army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) said all security agencies will come under the umbrella of the new Isoc structure.

Security supervision power, which is swinging back to the military, will include keeping track of supporters of the previous administration who may be stirring up trouble for the interim government.

An army chief will be appointed to take charge of the Isoc, which will be given more comprehensive powers to deal with both internal and external threats including drug trafficking, illegal immigration and terrorism, which have significant implications for the country's security, Gen Sonthi said.

''The Isoc's new personnel must be efficient and gel together as a coherent team to achieve the goal of serving the public good. It is essential to bring in a drug suppression agency to join the Isoc,'' Gen Sonthi said.

He said army commanders of the four regions will also be appointed as heads of the four Isoc regional offices, which will be responsible for regional security affairs, with the support and cooperation of provincial governors and police.

Previously, the Isoc had been supervised by the army before being transferred to the Prime Minister's Office, with deposed prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra acting as its director during his five years in the premiership.

unquote

Please go to url:- http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/01Dec2006_news02.php

for the full article.

marshbags and

P.S.

If you do not take the big boys out you will never stop it.

He should have done this if he had a genuine desire to get rid of drugs.

Ultimately he was overseeing the implementing and carrying out of all policies under this infamous

action on all counts, no excuses you non believers.

Edited December 1, 2006 by marshbags

[ColPyat]

The army plans to put the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc) back in full charge of security affairs, with a new structure modelled on the US Homeland Security Department . Army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) said all security agencies will come under the umbrella of the new Isoc structure.

Security supervision power, which is swinging back to the military, will include keeping track of supporters of the previous administration who may be stirring up trouble for the interim government.

&lt;deleted&gt;!?

Modelled on US Homeland Security!?

Lovely what all you can push through when there is a constitution you wrote yourself, and a docile handpicked parliament.

[hammered]

The army plans to put the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc) back in full charge of security affairs, with a new structure modelled on the US Homeland Security Department . Army chief Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin, chairman of the Council for National Security (CNS) said all security agencies will come under the umbrella of the new Isoc structure.

Security supervision power, which is swinging back to the military, will include keeping track of supporters of the previous administration who may be stirring up trouble for the interim government.

&lt;deleted&gt;!?

Modelled on US Homeland Security!?

Lovely what all you can push through when there is a constitution you wrote yourself, and a docile handpicked parliament.

Unfortunately, any form of authoritarianism is very easy to justify in the eyes of the world today thanks to the US, which is seen as the greatest democracy on earth, introducing its own overt authoritarian measures.

Slightly off topic it is interesting in Thailand to view any military statements on nation within the historical context of how Thailand has developed since the thirties, or even how Thailand has developed since its inception as a nation.