Buying Farm Land, title etc.

[Cashboy]

I have been reading this Farming Forum for some time with the intention of living and farming for self sufficiency in Thailand.

I know all the legalities regarding Farang not being able to own freehold land and being fleeced by Thai girls.

My questions arise regarding title and use of land with the various different title; i.e. with chanot, no chanot, red, green papers etc.

I am thinking of chanot = freehold absolute title.

I honestly don't understand the value, rather asking prices of land.

Please don't start telling me they will ask for more because I am a Farang.

I say that because I am in a position where all people in the village know me as a "poor Farang" that is "careful" with his money.

The Thai girl has title of the following with her sister.

House with land of 1/2 rai in centre of village.

20 rai of land that is 1 km outside of the village.

Her village is in Kumpawapi (Udonthani province) on the main road that runs from Bangkok to UdonThani town. I understand that this means there is a premium on prices

I have been looking at land for farming for the last 3 years in and around the village to understand the pricing and the situation.

Farm land with chanot is up for sale for about 300,000 bt per rai.

There is no way you could ever make a return on this land farming.

There is no way your Issan farmer could ever afford to buy this land on 350 bt per day as a farm labourer.

Land on the main road is offered for 1,250,000 bt per rai chanot !!

Land around her area is used for Sugar Cane mainly. Don't they know about crop rotation?

I have recently been offered to buy 12 rai at 80,000 bt per rai.

The Thai girl has looked at the title (well papers) and it is basically ex forest land with no channot.

There is no forest for at least 2 kms away so am thinking this land will not be reclaimed and re-forested.

She also tells me that it can only be used for farming and must be used continually for farming (can't leave it empty). Farming is all I require it for and it is next to the 20 rai she already has that has channot.

The woman is desperate to sell as has no use for it as husband died.

I was thinking of risking it and offering 60,000 bt per rai; take it or leave it.

My questions to you is:

(1) What kind of prices should one pay for farm land in Thailand?

(2) Is it risky to buy this 12 rai at 60,000 bt per rai with kind of no title?

(3) what kind of rent do Thais pay per rai for farm land?

[MJCM]

I can only comment on Nr 2

No Chanote DON'T Buy !

IMO, 80.000 THB is way too expensive, my wife just said, even 5 THB per rai is too expensive as you don't have any rights to the land and can be evicted on a moments notice. Take a look what is happening in Khao Yai (Korat) and Phuket, that is all NON Chanoted land!

Edit: Read this: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815728-bonanza-resort-faces-demolition-for-encroachment-of-khao-yai-national-park/

(Non Chanoted Land)

[farmerjo]

Offer to rent it off her for 2,000/rai. With 5 years up front.

[thairay]

just give the money to the girl and cut out the middle man....

[pigeonjake]

just give the money to the girl and cut out the middle man....

please explain your great wisdom oh great one,

or are you just another prick with the stupid coments.?

some have lived in the farming sector for years and been very happy

[TravelerEastWest]

"ex forest land with no channot."

Can normally only go to the children and can't have commercial use so in theory you can't sell the crops so what is the point unless you don't care about the law then go for it...

So the renting idea is interesting but only one year in advance.

[Sharp]

Cashboy my friend your asking for trouble without a land title, as MJCM has stated... I've been privi to what's going on in Phuket even with so called land docs. DON'T Buy is my advice sir.

[henry15]

Foreigners are not allowed farming, only Thai nationals can

[Robert24]

Here some thoughts from me:

1) 80k or even 60k per rai is very low. Normal farm land with chanote is around 100k -150k. In Udon I would think normal farm land to be around 125k (location NOT on main road). 300k is extremely inflated in my opinion, you would need to have a good location for this, i.e. Future development potential, with main road etc.

2) personally I would only buy land with chanote. I know Thais have less of an issue with just having a purchase contract and some witnesses. But to me it's just not something I would do. Maybe it's because I'm overly cautious, but just want to avoid any problems down the road with it. If you have a chanote, everything is properly registered, measured etc.

3) there is a lot of land up for sale everywhere. I recommend you pay a bit more and get land with a chanote.

[mike324]

I can only comment on Nr 2

No Chanote DON'T Buy !

IMO, 80.000 THB is way too expensive, my wife just said, even 5 THB per rai is too expensive as you don't have any rights to the land and can be evicted on a moments notice. Take a look what is happening in Khao Yai (Korat) and Phuket, that is all NON Chanoted land!

Edit: Read this: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815728-bonanza-resort-faces-demolition-for-encroachment-of-khao-yai-national-park/

(Non Chanoted Land)

agree, no chanote don't buy no matter how cheap. You will just land yourself in hot water later down the road even if you are a poor farang.

There is no forest for another 2km, does not mean there is no problem, just means the forest was cut years ago!

[khunPer]

Village land for farming is little different from the usual advises, when buying land, apart from that only Thais can own it.

High deed titles, like Chanote or Nor Sor Sarm (Nor Sor 3) and Nor Sor Sarm Gor, are normally priced higher because of Free Hold title.

Low titles can be just a slip for paying tax – which is probably the situation with the 12 rai ex. forrest land you, OP, has been offered – to low tittle deeds, where the land is dedicated for farm use, and can only be transferred within family, and cannot be used for borrowing money (printed in red on the deed paper). However low title land is traded (sold) among the villagers as had it title, typically using the Head-of-Village for paperwork and witness. The price for low tittle land is typically lower than Chanote.

My experience for farmland is mainly from Surin province, so some things may be different up in Udon.

In reply to your questions.

(1) What kind of prices should one pay for farm land in Thailand?

Prices will vary from area to area, and with within an area depend on location and title. Seem like going price at the moment is up around 80,000 baht a rai for non-title farmland, i.e. only tax receipts as documentation for ownership; whilst low titles easily trades for 100,000 baht and up, and Chanote (much) more; in some areas price for farmland has trippeled or more within the last decade.

(2) Is it risky to buy this 12 rai at 60,000 bt per rai with kind of no title?

Even Thais think there's a risk buying no-title land, however the gladly do it. If you can get farmland for 60,000 baht a rai, it's probably (very) cheap today – but you need to check access road and water, and get one with good farming knowledge to value to potentials for the land, i.e. good for sugar cane, or cassava, or rice, or..?

Your risk as foreigner is, that you gift a Thai some 12 rai of land for 700,000 baht or more, most probably 960,000 baht.

(3) what kind of rent do Thais pay per rai for farm land?

Normally Thais pays a share of the harvest, sometimes a cash fee. Converted to money you shall expect a farmland rent to be anything between 500 baht a rai, and up to maximum 2,000 baht a rai – don't budget with more than 1,000 baht a rai.

Looked at from an investment point-of-view, you'll receive a very low interest – i.e. in the area around 1 percent a year of your investment, which is lower than long term fixed money market interest – the investment gain is the long term increase in land prices. Your risk here is, that you don't own the land legally, and therefore cannot be sure you will gain from that.

Wish you good luck with your farmland plans...

[timberpond]

1. If your intended crops are cassava, sugarcane, etc. (non fruit trees)

2. You do not need to bore for water nor dig a huge pond

3. No need for sprinkle system or fencing

Rent it.

[pigeonjake]

Foreigners are not allowed farming, only Thai nationals can

not that old chesnut,

ive said it many times on here i dont work the farm my wife does it all with the help of our kids,

same as all the other lads on here who live happy on there wifes farm,

life is what you make of it,

you can go through life being bitchy about what others do or you can just get on with your own life and enjoy, i know which one i am,

[WishWashMan]

The Thai girl has looked .........................hahahahahaha! i smell trubble. another RUN forrest RUN!

[sead]

Have you thought if you would make any money from it. lets say that profit comes after 10 years. How old are you and will you be able to live that long to benefit from the earnings. is it worth all the fuzz to make her happy. Perhaps a better option is to put money in the bak where it will be released upon your death to your Gf( dont tell her that lol) Its always better to pay more for an attractive place.

Just some thoughts, and dont fall for the fast sale trick . Buying some condos will make it easier for you. Buy 5 and rent out 25% will make you a steady income. Now this is just some ideas

[pigeonjake]

it depends how much land you think you need,

what are your plans for your land,( no i dont want to know)

what are you going to go for, crops, pigs, chickens fish,

many factors have to be taken in, near a road, have electric, water, can you drill for water,

we have 2 rai and do what we need to do on 2 rai,

sit down work out what you have in mind,

do reserch before you buy the land, if you went for pigs like we do,

do you know were to buy piglets

do you know were to sell finnished pigs,

do you know were to buy your feed

do you know were there is a vet,

there are more things to look at then just going and buying some land, have a good think what you are going to do with it,

have a look at our,

ron jackson pig farmer on youtube, will give you an idea of what can be done here,

my wife,( i cant say we or us) has a shop now butchers shop were she sells our own pigs after slaughter,lol,

we used to sell to buyers but was getting messed about so now we have them slaughterd and sell in our own shop,

just saying this so you have an idea what can be done,

if you have more land, well in my eyes more land means more work,

have a good think before you buy,

we was given ours by grandma,

jake

[Issangeorge]

About 11 years ago I or I should say, my wife bought some land like the OP is talking about. I never saw the original title, so don't know what it was. Anyway my wife said it would be put in her name. We waited about a year, they came out and surveyed the land, put the round markers in and about two months later, my wife got the title. A full Chanote.

[somo]

You say the land is next to your girl's and hers has a chanote title. This implies you should be able to get the 12 rai converted to chanote as well.

The other thing that occurs to me is why not do whatever your girl does with her land. Does she farm it and make a profit? If not then why buy more now? Use her land to learn the business.

If you get good at it you can earn 5k/rai/year from agriculture so at 60k it would take you 12 years to get your money back. With the learning period thrown in I would allow 15 years.

I would take the advice above and rent it but would offer 1k/year/rai for say 3 or 4 years up front and see how you get on.

[Cashboy]

You say the land is next to your girl's and hers has a chanote title. This implies you should be able to get the 12 rai converted to chanote as well.

The other thing that occurs to me is why not do whatever your girl does with her land. Does she farm it and make a profit? If not then why buy more now? Use her land to learn the business.

If you get good at it you can earn 5k/rai/year from agriculture so at 60k it would take you 12 years to get your money back. With the learning period thrown in I would allow 15 years.

I would take the advice above and rent it but would offer 1k/year/rai for say 3 or 4 years up front and see how you get on.

I shall tell you a little bit more about myself so you get an understanding of my situation.

I am 54 years old. UK and Swiss Nationality living in the UK.

Though I have A degree in mecanical engineering and a qualified chartered accountant am very hands on in that I am as happy working in an office as to physically building a house

I have been with the Thai girl for 5 years. Admittedly I only see her twice a year for 60 days per trip (tourist visa + 30 day extension).

She has a reasonably paid job working for a large bangkok company with a salary of (25,000 bt per month + bonuses).

[Cashboy]

I shall tell you a little bit more about myself so you get an understanding of my situation.

I'll do all figures in Thai bt ("GB £1 to 50 bt for calculation purposes).

I am 54 years old with UK and Swiss Nationality living in the UK and Switzerland where i have freehold property in both.

Though I have A degree in mecanical engineering and a qualified chartered accountant am very hands on in that I am as happy working in an office as to physically building a house, stripping down an engine etc.

I don't actually have to work anymore as I have enough rental income to live a frugal life by western standards.

I have been with the Thai girl for 5 years. Admittedly I only see her twice a year for 60 days per trip (tourist visa + 30 day extension).

She has a reasonably well paid job working for a large company in Bangkok with a salary of (25,000 bt per month + bonuses).

She is 36 years old and has two children. They live with her mother.

I am pissed off with the life I am having in the west.

Despite what you may be reading about how well the UK is doing, I can assure you, well by the state of my clients, that they are barely making a living and a lot just seem to be getting into more debt.

I have got frustrated over the last eight years with the lack of morals that people seem to have in the west.

I have considered farming for self sufficiency for the last 7 years and when I went to Thailand thought maybe that is the place to do it.

I am not the kind of farang that will sit there with a beer chucking money into a hopeless project that some Thai girl is convinced is profitable as I read so much about on forums like this.

The going rate for farmland with chanot within a 1 km of the village appears to be about 300,000 bt

Totally unviable as farm land in my opinion.

Let me give you a comparison:

Price of farmland in the UK = £9,000 / acre = 187,500 bt per rai

Price of farmland in Romania works out at 35,000 br per rai

I am reading that some of you are able to "farm" on 2 rai etc.

I have looked at farming and feel that 50 rai (20 acres) is about the minimum for agriculture.

A "small holding" defined as sufficient for a family in the UK to live on is actually about 12 acres (28 rai) .

It is the Thai girl that is risk adverse and saying that buying the land with no chanot is risky. However title of the land seems to be on the say so and signed papers from the village head and highly likely, that as it is surrounded at least 2 kms all around with flat farmed land, that it would not be claimed by the government.

Let me reply to some of the comments:

MJCM and Sharp

True but Khao Yai and Phuket are tourist areas and nothing like some farm land in the north East of Thailand I would think.

FarmerJo:

Renting does make sense (financially).

2,000 bt per rai would be 3% of 60,000 bt so would be realistic.

This woman needs to sell the land for the capital.

Robert 24:

Yep; as already said, the location of her village house is 120 metres from the big main road that runs from Bangkok to Udon Thani and hence the high prices asked (mot necessarily selling at).

Realistic rate for farm land 20 kms from the main road is probably 100,000 bt per rai for farm land.

There is a big difference between the price of farm land with chanot and land that was orignally forest.

Mike 324:

Yep so correct but read Isangeorge' s comment. I was thinking that because the Thai girl has chanot next to this land, there is a good chance that she would get chanot on this as would be considered part of her farm. I have no intention of using the land other than for farming, the most would be to build a house for the farming family.

[pigeonjake]

yep farming on 2 rai,

we have 15 pens for our pigs each is 4x3 mts that works out at 180 square mts, if im not wrong,

pigs dont need a lot of room, if your growing crops then yes you will need more rai, but we, well we are happy with our pig job, buy 30ish piglets every month, and 30ish out every month,

we dont sell to buyers now we have our own butchers shop,

we buy our feed direct from the mill at cost at a fraction of the price you will buy it in the feed shops in any town,

but all the things take time to build up your contacts, yes its the same old story here in thailand,CONTACTS,

weather you go into farming animals or crops it will be about contacts

you can see what we do on you tube, ron jackson pig farmer itll come up,

im not telling you how to farm, and if some want to call our 2 rai a hobby farm, well up to them, but it does make good money,

i was from farming stock in the uk and always told the more land you buy the more work your buying and the more worry,

the price of land has gone up in thailand in the last few years, gone are the days of buying 25k rai land, well they have round us,

the prices could come down as the older generation die off, the younger ones dont want to farm they might sell off cheap to head of to bankock,

in the mean time im happy with what we have, yes im know im very lucky as i still go to work for a few months of the year, usualy the hot months, im in scotland at the moment working,

but my with and kids can take care of our farm standing on there heads,

regards

jake

[Issangeorge]

Reading these forums, nobody in their right mind would buy land without a chanote. However I did, and much to my surprise when all was said and done it became a chanote title. I have several friends who have bought and sold non chanote land and have never had a problem. In my village it seems most of the non rice land, does not have a chanote, and I have never heard of anyone having a problem. The land I built our house on, has no title at all. Don't be afraid of buying non chanote land, just be aware of the risk, and remember you can't get money from the bank on it, although loan sharks will give you money on it. Also remember, you may not be able to build a house on it, but the village head may give you permission. Isaan farm land is not high profile, and is not likely to attract any attention.

[farmerjo]

Also do a check on google earth to check out the area for piece of mind.

[somo]

Generally speaking I don't like negative comments and get the hump with the many i read here BUT. If you are here only twice a year and your lady lives in Bangkok you should forget all thoughts of farming.

Wait until you have lived in the countryside for a year or two and farm her land first before thinking about more land.

By the way I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about life in the UK. It's why I live here. You should save as much as you can while you can then ditch the place and come over here. With your accountant's brain you should soon be able t sniff out a few decent opportunities to keep you going but you cannot do that sitting in Europe.

[Rc2702]

Thai girl, thai woman you make it sound very clinical. How about "my better half" "even bloody teerak" if your main concern is your disgruntled mindset towards the west then I am sorry but I hope "thai girl" fleeces you for every penny mate. Thai girl, your a bloody disgrace so put that in your equation and if you break even rent/buy feel very bloody lucky. Your talking about another human being no worse maybe better than you. How would you feel if she refers to you as " I got this farang" swiss uk whatever who gives a shit mate your in it for the wrong reasons I hope she sees it.