Starting to sell food in Thailand

[haelewyn]

I am aware of the fact that there is a list with professions that can not be done by foreigners like me (European) but i never had a look at this list.

What can be done about food in an official way ?

Is a farang allowed to start a small business, cooking (farang) food .. and then : where is he allowed to sell the things ?
Would I be allowed to cook it and sell it on a market ?  On the street ? Open a small restaurant or diner ? Or any other way ?

 

I doubt it is allowed as most places that sell foreign food only show Thai faces.
Probably I am missing out on many things... but could somebody point me in the right direction please ?

Would like to do it as a very small business. I wouldn't want to deposit 2 mil bath first to start a company.

Thinking about making the stuff inside a house I would rent there, stay on a valid visa and then some Thai people I know (girlfriend or closeby) could sell it outside.

Is there a chance to get a work permit for some kind of job like this ?


In case anybody doubts what kind of farang I am :  just one who loves the country a lot and would like to stay there but wants to get some money in and not just going out.
I am not looking to come home rich one day. Just pay for my cost of living and save a bit on top would do great.
I have no idea of how things can be done or not in Thailand in this way.   Just seeing a lot of Indians doing trade there. No Europeans working in their own businesses.
There must be a reason for this.

Edited August 11, 2016 by haelewyn
correct text

[thairay]

You cannot do what you want here i am afraid, stick around for more negative comments 

[malt25]

I'm aware of several "Farang" restaurants up here in northern Isaan. My guess is they are registered in the wife's name. My understanding is that a farang can assist his wife in a family business.

 

What I'd be doing in your situation. Look up on Google for restaurants in say Sakon Nakhon or Udon Thani or Khon Kaen. Or where you like for that matter. A farang restaurant will be promoted as such. Contact said restaurant & ask for advice. Unless you intend to open up next to said restaurant, I'd think you'd get some valuable advice.

 

But, just my idea of getting started.

[Naroge]

As you are not prepared to invest the 2M Baht (and employ people etc..) it's a non starter.

 

Many Indians are Thai nationals.

[williamgeorgeallen]

problem is almost anything related to the food industry is reserved as thai occupations. even if you could find something not reserved you need to budget around 150 000 for work permit and associated expenses. hard to compete with thais who do not have to pay those expenses. i would say dont ruin your life in thailand by working here.

[recycler]

You'd better go to another country...

In Thailand you need to setup a company Ltd with minimum 2 million Baht registered capital and employ 4 Thais and pay yourself a minimum income of 50,000 Baht per month. You need to sell a lot of food for that!

[recom273]

Rather than interfering in the local market have you considered the niche food market, there seem to be a number of westerners providing niche items as pies, artisan bread or cheese, sausages, pickles or preserves.

 

We get steaks and other meats via a local guy who gets them shipped 1000km in dry ice on a long distance bus.

 

Seems a better idea to invest in training and an idea than in another Thai business model of the same but different.

Edited August 12, 2016 by recom273

[sweetrogue]

I believe the maximum sentence for farangs caught selling pla ra is five years hard labour and/or a fifty thousand Baht fine.

[Deepinthailand]

If you cook in your own home and Mrs sells it in street or on market no great problem. Your not selling and if anyone asks the mrs cooked it

[adhd]

2016 and this crazy place let us not even help in a family business

 

I cannot own anything (land ...) 

 

But (glad) my daughters can ... there are same nationality as mine ... just because their mother is Thai,  they can do whatever another Thai does, but not their father ?

 

no need to whine about it, I know....

 

 

[uptoyoumyfriend]

i know a few people like that myself heren in cm and the key is to be low key,the wife does it all.if you get bigger you hire more people and so on .

[SOTIRIOS]

...if you do anything too well...'someone' will rat on you....guaranteed...

[Muzarella]

If you are married with a Thai,  you can open a Limited Partnership 51 to 48% to run any business, with just one more 1% Thai on the contract. If not, you may need 3 more Thai on the contract.

If you are American, may be some exceptions. Ask you local DBD office.

The total cost to open a Limited Partnership Company is about  2000THB and you can do it your self with the help of a DBD officer. Do not need to show any money at all, but remember that may be not convenient for a very small business, because will have to declare taxes every year paying a CPA to do it (cost up to 10.000THB/year, plus taxes over 300.000/year profit).

Edited August 12, 2016 by Muzarella

[haelewyn]

4 hours ago, thairay said:

You cannot do what you want here i am afraid, stick around for more negative comments 

 

Thank you. I was already afraid of that but it seems to be ok in the end.

Not too bad, the reactions here and still always useful views.
Thanks to everybody for the replies until now.

 

 

4 hours ago, malt25 said:

Look up on Google for restaurants in say Sakon Nakhon or Udon Thani or Khon Kaen. Or where you like for that matter. A farang restaurant will be promoted as such. Contact said restaurant & ask for advice. Unless you intend to open up next to said restaurant, I'd think you'd get some valuable advice.

 

But, just my idea of getting started.

 

Good idea...  Was already nagging some people's ears about other things related to staying in Thailand for a long time.
Have been there for 10 weeks already this year and I feel i would need to see other areas and ask people there how they did it.
Haven't been asking about the business part yet..

 

2 hours ago, Deepinthailand said:

If you cook in your own home and Mrs sells it in street or on market no great problem. Your not selling and if anyone asks the mrs cooked it

 

Yeah.. That was my idea too. If i cook in my own home, i could be cooking for the neighbours and friends too. 
And whenever they come to check me, i will be sitting in front of the tv by the time they are talking to me.

 

22 minutes ago, SOTIRIOS said:

...if you do anything too well...'someone' will rat on you....guaranteed...

 

That is always the case.   If you have a succesful idea or business , others will try to copy it.
Even more in Thailand than in other places.
If one bar is succesful here, not an other 500 people will start with the same idea or start with a place that can not compete to others but still takes the odd customer away from others.
I feel this is even a bigger problem in Thailand than in my country.

 

Also one thing said was about artisanal  stuff :  
Of course i would not be cooking chicken green curry or Pad Thai. 
That is fine food but I want to fill a small gap , indeed.

I just also feel that the thing stands or falls with my presence. It would be nice to sell foods on a local market , but since i never see any farang doing it, i guess it is not allowed.
A 'real English pie' salesgirl who has Thai nationality will not sell the same amount than when locals would see it's really made and sold by a farang who knows what it should taste like.
Just an example..

[The manic]

Perhaps it mighto be useful to stop referring to yourself as 'farang'. But a quick answer to by your query is: no.

[Deepinthailand]

One last point whatever you decide to do or not to do (wink wink) don't put it on here. If you do the holier than tho brigade will be denouncing you as a heroic and that you should be deported immediately. ?????

[balo]

I knew a Norwegian once that used to sell waffles up in one of the Isaan villages. He made the waffles himself and sold them for 25 baht .  His wife were there also so they ran this business together.  The locals loved the waffles. Unfortunately he has passed away . 

 

 

[haelewyn]

1 hour ago, The manic said:

Perhaps it mighto be useful to stop referring to yourself as 'farang'. But a quick answer to by your query is: no.

That is difficult as some of my gf's friends adress me as 'farang' every time they speak to me.

So in my mind, it has become one of my names.

 

58 minutes ago, Deepinthailand said:

One last point whatever you decide to do or not to do (wink wink) don't put it on here. If you do the holier than tho brigade will be denouncing you as a heroic and that you should be deported immediately. ?????

 

Thanks mate. That is good advice too. 
I will not tell anybody about what i am really planning to do or where to do it.  But if one day i would be loaded with money... i will let you all know a part of it

 

56 minutes ago, balo said:

I knew a Norwegian once that used to sell waffles up in one of the Isaan villages. He made the waffles himself and sold them for 25 baht .  His wife were there also so they ran this business together.  The locals loved the waffles. Unfortunately he has passed away . 

 

Yep.. Good idea. Just the question then : how was he able to sell and make the waffles on the street... Is there less government or police control in Isaan and they just left him unbothered ? I can not imagine he started a company and put in 2 mil bath / hired 4 Thai people.
May God take care of his soul !

[Acharn]

A quick google gives this as the first hit: http://www.thailawonline.com/en/others/labour-law/forbidden-occupations-for-foreigners-jobs.html

 

I don't see anything on there that would prohibit preparation or selling food. If you can't afford to consult a lawyer you might offer a bottle of Johnny Walker Black Label to your friendly neighborhood policeman and ask him. Higher ranking officers are better.

[haelewyn]

Thanks for the link. I confess i thought about looking that one up but didn't do a search about that list on google already.
I will consider the bottle of whiskey but will consult a lawyer too.
I just don't want to ask too many questions there; The more prepared when i go there and the more i know already, the easier, faster and the cheaper it will be.

We can see that preparing and selling foods is not on the list. Altough : could it be seen as the 'labour work' in point 1 ? Preparing rather large quantities of food is labour.
Wiping my own ass could be considered as labour as it involves a strange movement and effort to do so.
Wide interpretation makes many things impossible and is not the interpretation often a difficulty when trying to do things legally in thailand ?

 

Then the next problem to solve would be : get a work permit.
Imagine i get any other than tourist visa ... (cause that one forbids the combination with working), could i just get a gf or wife to start a small enterprise and hire me 

but also get a work permit for me ?   That would be my first question to a lawyer there, i guess.
The next one maybe : make it happen ! :-)
The third one : what is it going to cost if we make this happen ?

 

I often see a business run by a farang without him really working. Altough many times just sitting on a chair, asking things, ordering things and supervising the entire business.

Had some talks about that with a business owner who is officially not working in Thailand. Just there on a retirement visa and owning part of a business.

My business plan however includes that people see me making things and see me selling it ( sorry for repeating myself).

[balo]

5 hours ago, haelewyn said:

? I can not imagine he started a company and put in 2 mil bath / hired 4 Thai people.

 

Of course not , he did what the local street vendors does all the time , and I would think he never paid any taxes.  So they could actually make a small profit out of it.  

But I agree it's a risky business for a foreigner to get involved.  

Edited August 12, 2016 by balo

[NiwPix]

Basically you want to start a business "on a budget". So, forming a company is out of the question. Which in turn means you won't be able to get a B-Visa. The only other Visa ( as far as I know ) that allows you to stay in Thailand AND get a work permit is an O-Visa based on marriage.

Since B-Visa is not an option for you, you need to be married.

Workpermit shouldn't be too difficult ( remember though that same as Immigration, the labor department has their own interpretation of rules....what works Korat, may not work in Pattaya for example ). The business is in your wifes name ( Sole Proprietorship is the easiest business setup, but comes with a major downside: business owner is 100% liable ). You can apply and get a work permit, however, you will need to be able to show 4 Thai employees. I found obtaining a work permit and renewal is a lot easier than obtaining a Visa / dealing with immigration.

 

Since you do not plan on making an official business with walk-in customers, then just start out behind the scenes in your own 4 walls and test the waters. If everything works the way you had planned it, maybe then consider doing the right thing ( business + Work Permit ).

[SteveSamui6262]

Getting back to your original inquiry, someone once said "If you want to earn a little money in Thailand, invest a lot".  From where I am sitting, Thais don't care about falong food, maybe with the exception of The Sizzler.  They would not be your road to success.

 

I rate about 90% of the foreign food here as low quality with make-shift ingredients.  Even though Thai food is the best food available here (in my opinion), many Thai dishes are generally unhealthy (fried, meats treated with antibiotics, borax and  produce being widely treated with pesticides & preservatives).  Over the long-term here (25-35 years), there is a high incidence of colorectal cancer which stems from these and other regional contaminates.

 

For the past few years the best quality veggies & fruits are being directly exported from farms to China!!  Have you noticed the crappy fruit on the shelves in the local markets?  The Thais are getting screwed big time.

 

But don't let me discourage you.  I hope you can successfully produce product(s) that will find a demand and that you have a good degree of success!

[haelewyn]

I did hear that the law is sometimes less strictly inforced in Isaan. 
However that is a risk, like you said.
I would be willing to give it a try.

The thing i want to do is making food but on a small scale and selling it to the end user.

Of course in this business setup, I am not interested in making a large company.  It just doesnt fit what i want to do.

Yep.. i am thinking about doing it between 4 walls. Just the selling part , i can not do with both hands in my pockets.. or I would have to 

 learn to work like that.. and let the wife do the selling.  Just limit myself to saying thank you to customers maybe.

[blackcab]

I can tell you exactly about the work permit situation as I have had work permits in the hospitality industry. 

 

1. You can get a work permit to cook, however you would have to be an executive chef or other senior role. This is what hotels do. All the line cooks, sous chefs, etc, are Thai. The most senior chefs are foreign (in some hotels).

 

2. You will never get a work permit to sell food or beverage. Ever. It is specifically forbidden. In my work permit it gave my job title and job description. It also had an addition entry that I was forbidden to conduct sales. This entry is standard for foreigners working in the hospitality industry in Thailand. 

[haelewyn]

In order to be an executive chef in my one or two person small 'company', would I need to have a diploma of being a chef ?  I am just a hobbyist at cooking but think i can make some dishes rather well and that it would sell... I just never went to school to be a chef. 

So more precise :   
Did you have to give a copy of a chef diploma or proof of experience ?  Did you do it on a small scale too and can a work permit be given for somebody who would just cook foods on for example, a market, if the wife or gf or any other Thai would do the selling ?

I know a lot of guys who are the CEO and carry business cards like that but just have a one guy operation going. Would that work ?

[haelewyn]

 

An other way : 

I thought about letting her start a business where we sell products from my country (as our theme) and where she employs me cause i bring in the knowledge about that theme and about the foods that are eaten there. As a matter of making it authentic.

The business can be 100 procent hers. I don't mind. 
I wonder if I could get a work permit then, as her employee .. since i bring in the knowledge, face and image only somebody from my country could bring in.

Is that an idea or it makes no difference ?

 

And otherwise ... i will think about just working under the radar..

 

 

 

[NiwPix]

Who is "she/her"? girlfriend / wife?

Reason I ask, I think your Visa should be your first concern before the work permit.

If she is your wife:

O-Visa: Work permit possible. Wife can setup sole proprietorship ( "cheap" ). Then hire you...but she still needs 4 Thai Employees on payroll before she can hire you.

 

Is she your girlfriend:

B-Visa: She needs to open up a company ( expensive ) and loooots of paperwork. Then the work permit is possible as well...with 4 thai employees on payroll.

 

None of the above? Only option I see is stay under the radar.

[haelewyn]

Thanks NiwPix. 
An other member here said the same thing..   I am sure your advice is correct.

At this time , it's my gf.   Later will be my wife if everything goes right.
We were planning on living together for 6 months or so first. 
I want to see Isaan and the life there; Maybe i will get fed up soon but i think not.
I already lived in other Asian countries for a while under similar circumstances.

The under the radar option stays interesting. It's not my most favorite one but i think it's the best solution for now.

Just need to plan the right thing then and do it the right way.
With local ingredients probably too and not stuff i import from Europe.

Thanks a lot for everybody's opinion and experience / views which were all done in a fair and polite way.

Any other or more advice is welcome.

 

[Alive]

There are foreigners cooking food and running restaurants and getting away with it despite the law. Maybe not for long but they are around. If you look dark skinned you have a better chance. If you do it in a small open air market that comes and goes once a week you have a better chance. If you are in a small village you have a better chance. If you have a wife doing it with you, you have a better chance. If you know the cops and local important people you have a better chance. If you wear the yellow Thai Thai polo shirt and have amulets, you have a better chance. If you speak Thai, you have a better chance. If you don't steal business from others, you have a better chance. If you wai people and and kiss butt to all(Yeees, maassaa), you have a better chance. Well, I don;t want to go on but you do have a chance. I see foreigners sell stuff but many seem to disappear.