North Korea - A Different World

[corkscrew]

When you go there you will come away with the feeling that this is the Disneyland for the Crazies. It is not a real place. It was created by the two Kims for their own amusement. You will enter a fantasy world surrounded by huge gates. I am not saying "don't go there"...just visit it like you would a huge theme park. Laugh and cry.

[meemiathai]

[corkscrew]

This is the North Korea that they wanted us to see. We were not taken to the darker areas.

http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/annie/korea/index.html

Whatever, go there if you can.

[midas]

What do you mean by this? Do you mean the USA has contaminated our minds?

To answer this would be going right off the subject - all I'm saying is I'm glad I

heard about the other side of the war - which I never got to hear about before my visit.

Visiting North Korea was also like putting another piece in the global jigsaw.

For example I didn't know that North Korea sympathizes with the Palestinians which is why

Israelis are not allowed to go there.........................the media certainly doesn't give

that angle much coverage !

[Nikkijah]

Grim, but not exclusive to North Korea, I've seen many streets like these in Cambodia! And I'm sure there are many streets like these all over the world...

[TypicalAnonym]

I know N. Korea is on the "verbotten" list by the US State department. for USA passport holders. Could you visit the country, using your U.S. Passport, but request that they put the visa on a separate page which could be loosely inserted into your passport?

Firstly, this is simply wrong. It is perfectly legal for Americans to travel to North Korea. (See here: DPRK Consular Info Sheet).

Secondly, North Korea does not stamp visas into passports at all; visas are issued on a separate paper. My passport shows no evidence whatsoever that I was ever there!

I was there last year with Koryo tours to see the 2005 Arirang mass games. I think I left there with more questions than I had before I went!

Many places where we went, there were people milling around whose sole purpose seemed to be watching over us -- and each other, I imagine. There wasn't any obvious way for our guides to be communicating with "tour central" or anyone else, but everything was always arranged to the T. I guess that's what's possible when a country literally knows the precise location of every single foreigner in it.

[bkkmadness]

It sounds totally surreal, I will have to think about visiting the country.

Just searched through the net for some more info, found a blog piece on a trip to Korea. I haven't read it all yet but it looks like it might be good reading and of interest to some of you.

Here it is

Some good pics too!

[lannarebirth]

Scott I don't think you understand ! The authorities would never let you

do that i.e. " get much a feel for how it really works and how the people think "!

In any case there wouldn't be that many work opportunities

there -probably teaching English would bethe only one. On

board the plane from Beijing to Pyongyang I was sitting next to an English teacher

from Australia who was even staying in our hotel on a permanent basis -but he was even segregated from us in the hotel. He had had all his meals in a separate dining room !

You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and

absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you

constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.

You cant just decide to wander around outside on your own.

So I'm afraid a slight glimpse inside this fascinating country

is all you can ever hope to get ..............

midas, you tell me that you would leap at the chance of going back to this fascinating country but then you remind us of how ridiculously controlled it is 'You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.'

This kind of control scares me a little bit, why should they need to follow you around everywhere? Why do they need to be so paranoid?? Does anybody give a toss about what is around the corner on the next barren street?? This country needs to wake up a little bit.

I suppose I would like to go to see for my own eyes, make sure that I wasn't the one being brainwashed by our own media and that the country really was in the state we see in the limited film and photos we get to see

Nikkijah if you decide to go you must go with an open mind.......when you are there you will learn

about " the Dear Leader " and his " Juche Idea " which is what North Korean communism is based on. Of course you can be cynical and disagree with all of it ( but of course never ever criticise any of it particularly to your guides ! ) - or you may even agree......but ultimately the North Koreans firmly believe THEY have the right answer to proper living - well at least those who don't keep trying to escape. Most North Koreans who strictly abide by these principles believe they are actually superior to the rest of the world ! This is the reason the authorities want to keep them segregated from us. I must say they are very well-educated and obviously extremely well disciplined.

In other words they don't want us to contaminate the thought process of their citizens...........

No matter what you think about all this - you still come away realizing the Americans have got a lot to answer for. There are lots of of paradoxes and contradictions but I'm sure you'll come away from North Korea having had an experience that will stay with you long time. Most other travelers say exactly the same thing.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/artic...;articleId=2686

I've never flamed anyone on this forum before, but all I can say is " what a dope " you appear to be. A friend of mine is an administartor of the World food Program in Pyongyang. He says thousand die every month as military leaders steal the rice rations donated from the US, Japan and other nations. Sometimes they rebag it and sell it on the black market at wildly inflated prices, or sometime they export it back out of the country. Try a Google search on " North Korea Gulag ".

[Nikkijah]

It sounds totally surreal, I will have to think about visiting the country.

Just searched through the net for some more info, found a blog piece on a trip to Korea. I haven't read it all yet but it looks like it might be good reading and of interest to some of you.

Here it is

Some good pics too!

This is a great article bkkmadness, I'm only half way through and I'm totally gripped, although there seems to be some bu11sh1t from the South Korean/US side there is undoubtedly lots and lots of it from the NK side

I still find it inconceivable that an entire country can believe in the lies!?

Such a shame that so many people are not allowed to choose their own lives

[midas]

Scott I don't think you understand ! The authorities would never let you

do that i.e. " get much a feel for how it really works and how the people think "!

In any case there wouldn't be that many work opportunities

there -probably teaching English would bethe only one. On

board the plane from Beijing to Pyongyang I was sitting next to an English teacher

from Australia who was even staying in our hotel on a permanent basis -but he was even segregated from us in the hotel. He had had all his meals in a separate dining room !

You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and

absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you

constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.

You cant just decide to wander around outside on your own.

So I'm afraid a slight glimpse inside this fascinating country

is all you can ever hope to get ..............

midas, you tell me that you would leap at the chance of going back to this fascinating country but then you remind us of how ridiculously controlled it is 'You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.'

This kind of control scares me a little bit, why should they need to follow you around everywhere? Why do they need to be so paranoid?? Does anybody give a toss about what is around the corner on the next barren street?? This country needs to wake up a little bit.

I suppose I would like to go to see for my own eyes, make sure that I wasn't the one being brainwashed by our own media and that the country really was in the state we see in the limited film and photos we get to see

Nikkijah if you decide to go you must go with an open mind.......when you are there you will learn

about " the Dear Leader " and his " Juche Idea " which is what North Korean communism is based on. Of course you can be cynical and disagree with all of it ( but of course never ever criticise any of it particularly to your guides ! ) - or you may even agree......but ultimately the North Koreans firmly believe THEY have the right answer to proper living - well at least those who don't keep trying to escape. Most North Koreans who strictly abide by these principles believe they are actually superior to the rest of the world ! This is the reason the authorities want to keep them segregated from us. I must say they are very well-educated and obviously extremely well disciplined.

In other words they don't want us to contaminate the thought process of their citizens...........

No matter what you think about all this - you still come away realizing the Americans have got a lot to answer for. There are lots of of paradoxes and contradictions but I'm sure you'll come away from North Korea having had an experience that will stay with you long time. Most other travelers say exactly the same thing.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/artic...;articleId=2686

I've never flamed anyone on this forum before, but all I can say is " what a dope " you appear to be. A friend of mine is an administartor of the World food Program in Pyongyang. He says thousand die every month as military leaders steal the rice rations donated from the US, Japan and other nations. Sometimes they rebag it and sell it on the black market at wildly inflated prices, or sometime they export it back out of the country. Try a Google search on " North Korea Gulag ".

lannarebirth your posting shows what do you are because I among the relaying what the guides told us - I never said I personally believe any of it - it is up to each individual traveler to make his her own mind up. Anyway after you have visited the place your self instead of just relying on your friends comments perhaps we can have a more meaningful discussion

[midas]

Scott I don't think you understand ! The authorities would never let you

do that i.e. " get much a feel for how it really works and how the people think "!

In any case there wouldn't be that many work opportunities

there -probably teaching English would bethe only one. On

board the plane from Beijing to Pyongyang I was sitting next to an English teacher

from Australia who was even staying in our hotel on a permanent basis -but he was even segregated from us in the hotel. He had had all his meals in a separate dining room !

You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and

absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you

constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.

You cant just decide to wander around outside on your own.

So I'm afraid a slight glimpse inside this fascinating country

is all you can ever hope to get ..............

midas, you tell me that you would leap at the chance of going back to this fascinating country but then you remind us of how ridiculously controlled it is 'You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.'

This kind of control scares me a little bit, why should they need to follow you around everywhere? Why do they need to be so paranoid?? Does anybody give a toss about what is around the corner on the next barren street?? This country needs to wake up a little bit.

I suppose I would like to go to see for my own eyes, make sure that I wasn't the one being brainwashed by our own media and that the country really was in the state we see in the limited film and photos we get to see

Nikkijah if you decide to go you must go with an open mind.......when you are there you will learn

about " the Dear Leader " and his " Juche Idea " which is what North Korean communism is based on. Of course you can be cynical and disagree with all of it ( but of course never ever criticise any of it particularly to your guides ! ) - or you may even agree......but ultimately the North Koreans firmly believe THEY have the right answer to proper living - well at least those who don't keep trying to escape. Most North Koreans who strictly abide by these principles believe they are actually superior to the rest of the world ! This is the reason the authorities want to keep them segregated from us. I must say they are very well-educated and obviously extremely well disciplined.

In other words they don't want us to contaminate the thought process of their citizens...........

No matter what you think about all this - you still come away realizing the Americans have got a lot to answer for. There are lots of of paradoxes and contradictions but I'm sure you'll come away from North Korea having had an experience that will stay with you long time. Most other travelers say exactly the same thing.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/artic...;articleId=2686

I've never flamed anyone on this forum before, but all I can say is " what a dope " you appear to be. A friend of mine is an administartor of the World food Program in Pyongyang. He says thousand die every month as military leaders steal the rice rations donated from the US, Japan and other nations. Sometimes they rebag it and sell it on the black market at wildly inflated prices, or sometime they export it back out of the country. Try a Google search on " North Korea Gulag ".

lannarebirth I'm sorry my comments make you feel that way but let me remind you I have never said anywhere in this thread that these are my beliefs - it is merely a summary of what the guides told us -that's why I said you must go with an open mind and it's up to each individual traveler how he or she interprets what the North Korean authorities say to the tourists. Perhaps we could have a more meaningful discussion after you actually visit the place to itself instead of just relying on the comments of your friend

[brahmburgers]

excellent photos. great constrast between the stern status quo projected by the gov't tenuously hanging by a thread - on the whims of a nut-case who drinks whiskey, rapes girls in back rooms, and watches old Hollywood westerns ......and the true humanity peeking out from the people who are no different at heart - than people anywhere else.

[asanee]

Hm, sceptic like me: the thread started with a story that MUST have been copied from somwehre else, also if you just cough up the money, there is NO limit or years long wating list etc.perhaps has to do with being journalist.

But having been in most of pre-Mauer Fall eastern Europe, even on my own then, and now really regretting all those precious EURO I paid for all visa for countries abolishing them after: beside the idea, ist uitter boredom. At least a dozen allare the same books/reports on it. More amusing was the 1 bookI still have,in German, from the old DDR, of a comrade going there to teach for 1 year, as socialist brother. BTW; BRADT does a good travelguidebook on it.

More mystifying are the ways they earn foreign money;in CZ thereare still, a few 100 NoKo working ladies, making shoes (not for BATA), and after the govt. has taken all its various cuts, get home with a measly 5-6 US$ a WEEK in savings.

and Oh yes: if you ever wodnered why in Asia NOone wants those CB-US$ bills: they were made in GosDollarPrint Juche , over there too.

[markg]

I still find it inconceivable that an entire country can believe in the lies!?

Such a shame that so many people are not allowed to choose their own lives

Really. Didnt some people vote George Bush in. Twice !!

[danone]

been there two times - see some images here:

http://www.pbase.com/cyberholz/north_korea

have been in the winter and spring. both times I was more than happy to leave as quickly as possible again.

its a paradise though for people who adore the strange and weird.

and great people! the ones you're allowed to meet ...

[midas]

I still find it inconceivable that an entire country can believe in the lies!?

Such a shame that so many people are not allowed to choose their own lives

Really. Didnt some people vote George Bush in. Twice !!

[Nikkijah]

Hm, sceptic like me: the thread started with a story that MUST have been copied from somwehre else, also if you just cough up the money, there is NO limit or years long wating list etc.perhaps has to do with being journalist.

But having been in most of pre-Mauer Fall eastern Europe, even on my own then, and now really regretting all those precious EURO I paid for all visa for countries abolishing them after: beside the idea, ist uitter boredom. At least a dozen allare the same books/reports on it. More amusing was the 1 bookI still have,in German, from the old DDR, of a comrade going there to teach for 1 year, as socialist brother. BTW; BRADT does a good travelguidebook on it.

More mystifying are the ways they earn foreign money;in CZ thereare still, a few 100 NoKo working ladies, making shoes (not for BATA), and after the govt. has taken all its various cuts, get home with a measly 5-6 US$ a WEEK in savings.

and Oh yes: if you ever wodnered why in Asia NOone wants those CB-US$ bills: they were made in GosDollarPrint Juche , over there too.

Hm, not sure what you are getting at..

he thread started with a story that MUST have been copied from somwehre else

I wrote it and it's not a story, it's just some questions

Why is it that many of the 'journalists' who write on forums have such terrible spelling??

Another thing, what is/are:

pre-Mauer Fall eastern Europe

DDR

CZ

NoKo

BATA

CB-US$ bills

GosDollarPrint

Call me stupid asanee, but I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say here

Nikkijah

[Nikkijah]

I still find it inconceivable that an entire country can believe in the lies!?

Such a shame that so many people are not allowed to choose their own lives

Really. Didnt some people vote George Bush in. Twice !!

The difference is that North Americans didn't believe the lies but had no way of changing the results, no? Anyway, different subject!

[Nikkijah]

Now asanee, this story was copied from somewhere else...

Life without freedom

Erica Silberstein listens to a North Korean defector

Posted 11-18-2004, 23:58

by Erica Silberstein

On Nov. 12, the Northwestern community heard about North Korea's human and civil rights atrocities from someone who's lived through them. Yong Kim, a North Korean defector, escaped one of the country's harshest prison camps and told a tale that many wish to reveal but most cannot.

North Korea has 12 to 15 documented political prison camps, the largest one three times the size of the District of Columbia. Kim Jong Il, North Korea's dictator, starves and kills the very people that believed in him growing up. Civilians forced into these camps are usually second, third, or even eighth generation, meaning that they are essentially being imprisoned for something one of their relatives may have done in the past. WORLD magazine estimates that North Korea has a population of 23 million, and that four to seven million of those people have already died from starvation. While the country receives more food aid than any other nation, that aid is unevenly rationed out amongst the social classes with civilians rarely seeing any benefits.

Yong Kim's story is not much different than that of many other innocent victims of Kim Jong Il or his father, Kim Il Sung. Separated from his family at a young age, Kim grew up in an orphanage, never knowing his real father. He was told that Kim Jong Il was his father and the North Korean Party his mother. Many North Koreans falsely assume Kim Jong Il's divine nature without knowing the carnage the party inflicts on a daily basis.

In 1993, Kim indirectly learned that his father had been a United States CIA agent and spy after Kim Jong Il's forces took him away to a prison camp in North Korea. According to Kim, "no one is known to survive" these camps. If they escape to China, Kim Jong Il has a firm treaty with the Chinese forcing all refugees back to the prison camps or to their deaths if found.

In his camp, 15,000 prisoners including Christians, businessmen, landowners, and those against the North Korean Party were starved to death by receiving only one handful of corn for an entire day or executed on the whims of the guardsmen. The officials running the camps constantly beat and murder young women to hide the evidence of the rapes that occur. Viewed as objects, these women are sometimes sold over and over again in a type of slave auction against their wishes.

Despondent over leaving his sister-in-law behind in the camps, Kim escaped from the prison camp by crossing the Tumon River into China, then reaching South Korea via Mongolia in 2000. Saved by a group of Christian missionaries, Kim's health was restored after about six months, and he became a missionary to save other defectors.

After traveling to South Korea a new man, Kim realized that many South Koreans were not aware of what's occurring north of the 38th parallel. In fact, many students wished they were in North Korea because the simplicity of Kim Jong Il's rule is more appealing than their current, less than stable democracy. However, Kim persistently teaches South Koreans of the Holocaust-like realities happening across the DMZ, aware that the students hold the key to the future. Recently invited to the United States, Kim wants to speak out for the voiceless in North Korea.

"The veterans of the Korean War know exactly how I feel. They won't speak up that loud, but they are crying inside," said Kim.

Erica Silberstein is a Medill freshman. E-mail her at [email protected].

[midas]

Nikkijah -it seems to me you have already made your mind up about North Korea so I wouldn't bother traveling there !

As for your comment " The difference is that North Americans didn't believe the lies but had no way of changing the results, no? " - had no way to change the results ?????? Get real - that is complete nonsense and you know it

[Nikkijah]

Nikkijah -it seems to me you have already made your mind up about North Korea so I wouldn't bother traveling there !

As for your comment " The difference is that North Americans didn't believe the lies but had no way of changing the results, no? " - had no way to change the results ?????? Get real - that is complete nonsense and you know it

Do I know it? I'm not sure, almost all of the US citizens I've met have slated and cursed Bush and the elections, I'm only going by the impressions I've been given

I guess I have kind of made my mind up about North Korea, I'm still happy to listen to other peoples views and experiences though

I would love to be a fly on the wall in North Korea but as the author of one of the stories I've read explains, he was getting agitated after only his first day in the country so it definitely doesn't sound like the place for me, I'm still very interested in it anyway

[manjara]

Scott I don't think you understand ! The authorities would never let you

do that i.e. " get much a feel for how it really works and how the people think "!

In any case there wouldn't be that many work opportunities

there -probably teaching English would bethe only one. On

board the plane from Beijing to Pyongyang I was sitting next to an English teacher

from Australia who was even staying in our hotel on a permanent basis -but he was even segregated from us in the hotel. He had had all his meals in a separate dining room !

You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and

absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you

constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.

You cant just decide to wander around outside on your own.

So I'm afraid a slight glimpse inside this fascinating country

is all you can ever hope to get ..............

midas, you tell me that you would leap at the chance of going back to this fascinating country but then you remind us of how ridiculously controlled it is 'You cannot just freely interact with North Korean citizens and absolutely everywhere you go ( including the English teacher ! ) you constantly have to be with the North Korean government guides.'

This kind of control scares me a little bit, why should they need to follow you around everywhere? Why do they need to be so paranoid?? Does anybody give a toss about what is around the corner on the next barren street?? This country needs to wake up a little bit.

I suppose I would like to go to see for my own eyes, make sure that I wasn't the one being brainwashed by our own media and that the country really was in the state we see in the limited film and photos we get to see

Nikkijah if you decide to go you must go with an open mind.......when you are there you will learn

about " the Dear Leader " and his " Juche Idea " which is what North Korean communism is based on. Of course you can be cynical and disagree with all of it ( but of course never ever criticise any of it particularly to your guides ! ) - or you may even agree......but ultimately the North Koreans firmly believe THEY have the right answer to proper living - well at least those who don't keep trying to escape. Most North Koreans who strictly abide by these principles believe they are actually superior to the rest of the world ! This is the reason the authorities want to keep them segregated from us. I must say they are very well-educated and obviously extremely well disciplined.

In other words they don't want us to contaminate the thought process of their citizens...........

No matter what you think about all this - you still come away realizing the Americans have got a lot to answer for. There are lots of of paradoxes and contradictions but I'm sure you'll come away from North Korea having had an experience that will stay with you long time. Most other travelers say exactly the same thing.

My brother lived in Pyongyang for a year as an 'Editor' of the Pyongyang Times English edition. Basically correcting English for official pronouncements.

I keep telling him he should write a book or something.

He said it wasn't that bad, but you're right, he wasn't able to go off on his own anywhere. Always with a driver.

[Nikkijah]

My brother lived in Pyongyang for a year as an 'Editor' of the Pyongyang Times English edition. Basically correcting English for official pronouncements.

I keep telling him he should write a book or something.

He said it wasn't that bad, but you're right, he wasn't able to go off on his own anywhere. Always with a driver.

I told my Thai partner about this and she could not believe what she was hearing

Can you imagine it? Can't just pop down to the shops for some ciggies or grab a quick beer at that bar near XXXX XXXXX, unbelievable really

[manjara]

My brother lived in Pyongyang for a year as an 'Editor' of the Pyongyang Times English edition. Basically correcting English for official pronouncements.

I keep telling him he should write a book or something.

He said it wasn't that bad, but you're right, he wasn't able to go off on his own anywhere. Always with a driver.

I told my Thai partner about this and she could not believe what she was hearing

Can you imagine it? Can't just pop down to the shops for some ciggies or grab a quick beer at that bar near XXXX XXXXX, unbelievable really

He lived in compound where they had basic stuff. Not sure it was a 'bar' but they had somewhere to go to meet up. He wasn't shadowed from the minute he left his apartment!

He was there in 2001-2002, just at the time they were declared part of the 'axis-of-evil' (classic diplomacy of our time!).

He's now married and staying in China, I married and stayed in Thailand, we're a long way from bonnie Scotland.

Still, I wonder if he could have married a North Korean? Would they have allowed him to stay? Buy land? a house?

[corkscrew]

One think about traveling in North Korea: I felt totally safe from anything criminal.

[midas]

" I guess I have kind of made my mind up about North Korea "

that's unfortunate, it reminds me of an adverti they used to have Guiness many years ago-

it said - " I've never had Guiness because I don't like it "

[midas]

One think about traveling in North Korea: I felt totally safe from anything criminal.

good point corkscrew -in this day and age it's nice to go somewhere just for that alone- in fact I can't even think of any other places in the world which appear to be so crime free ?

The other thing we found as a " novelty " was standing in the middle of a 6 Lane freeway ( good standard as well ) when we stopped off at the equivalent of a motor way services stations on our way down from Pyongyang to the demilitarized zone - absolutely no cars coming in either direction ! This is on a weekday at about 11 AM. I live in Bangkok so you to imagine what bliss it was

[Nikkijah]

One think about traveling in North Korea: I felt totally safe from anything criminal.

Except the law

[Nikkijah]

" I guess I have kind of made my mind up about North Korea "

that's unfortunate, it reminds me of an adverti they used to have Guiness many years ago-

it said - " I've never had Guiness because I don't like it "

Thats funny midas

I am curious about the countries of the world and would love to travel more but I think I would be so frustrated at not even being able to talk with someone who wanted to talk to me just yards away from me, all that herding onto and off of the bus, the schedule etc etc, it is just silly, if the country lightened up a bit - not to the excess of Bangkok or Hong Kong for example - then I would love to go and see the real North Korea, I'm not sure any foreigner who has visited North Korea recently has seen the real North Korea at all... have they??

[Nikkijah]

One think about traveling in North Korea: I felt totally safe from anything criminal.

good point corkscrew -in this day and age it's nice to go somewhere just for that alone- in fact I can't even think of any other places in the world which appear to be so crime free ?

The other thing we found as a " novelty " was standing in the middle of a 6 Lane freeway ( good standard as well ) when we stopped off at the equivalent of a motor way services stations on our way down from Pyongyang to the demilitarized zone - absolutely no cars coming in either direction ! This is on a weekday at about 11 AM. I live in Bangkok so you to imagine what bliss it was

It's like a fantasy movie, are you going to gawk at the scene of no cars on the road or no shops selling normal things for foreigners or the unique currency for foreign 'travellers' only?? What is your purpose of going there? Like I said before, if it was just a little bit more relaxed then I'm sure it would be a wondrous place to visit.

There is simply no crime because the whole country is sh1t scared of doing anything wrong in case they get put in one of the apparently hidden prison camps along with their whole family!

Is that the future? Maybe we should all adopt these crime prevention methods - they seem to be working very effectively in North Korea