Retiring with 16mn Baht

[Scotwight]

22 minutes ago, Naam said:

 

you can own a home on legally acquired land in Thailand and use this land as you please albeit presently limited to a period of 30 years. nobody owns land for an unlimited time span anywhere on this planet. ownership stops when the "owner" is carried to the graveyard or crematorium. to avoid the often quoted pig farms, unsavoury neighbours, noisy bars, motorcycle repairshops et al is only a matter of logistics and of course relevant financial means.

You are building a house on rented land.  Up to you.  I wouldn't do it.  No escape clause if Central Group wants to build a mall next to me.  I think one can buy land forever (or close to it) Check how long the Duke of Westminister has owned London - that works for me.  Newbys have bought the Brooklyn Bridge many times and building on rented land strikes me as the same kind of deal.  

 

Bottom line is we are both renting but I can move without loosing more than a small deposit.  

[slipperylobster]

It is actually the same old sad story.

 

Farangs love to say they bought a house...but (except in a very few cases where they have established citizenship) what they actually have done is have their wife buy it.  A document is signed by the farang that his money is not involved.

 

The arguments come from realtors, and guys that hope to sell their wife's house.  It may work out well for the happily married.  It may work if the wife passes away first.  It may work if the wife never takes out that 2nd mortgage, while the husband is not looking.  

 

I do understand some farangs lease it back from their wife.....but also understand that power of attorney releasing the wife from obligations occur where the wife forges the husband's name.

 

No farang here sells a house.  His wife does that. He basically watches.

 

Condos are different

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by slipperylobster

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

41 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

True the foreigner cannot buy the land and own it outright but they can lease it and/or take out an usufruct on it, the latter giving them complete control of the land including the ability to sell a thirty year lease on it to a third party. To all intents and purposes those things have 99% of all the rights of ownership, including the ability to recoup the purchase costs via sale of a lease.

 

But for most expats, not necessarily the right to remain in the country as long as they may wish.

 

The end could come at any time, and/or the continued tinkering/monkeying with burdensome, unpredictable Immigration requirements for extensions.

 

And if it did, that wouldn't be the time to be trying to unload one's lease or condo.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 minutes ago, Scotwight said:

You are building a house on rented land.  Up to you.  I wouldn't do it.  No escape clause if Central Group wants to build a mall next to me.  I think one can buy land forever (or close to it) Check how long the Duke of Westminister has owned London - that works for me.  Newbys have bought the Brooklyn Bridge many times and building on rented land strikes me as the same kind of deal.  

 

Bottom line is we are both renting but I can move without loosing more than a small deposit.  

 

In my country, when I buy land and a house, I own it period. For the rest of my life, if I choose, and then free to pass it along to my inheritors as part of my estate.

 

Hardly the same thing as a 30-year lease -- unless you have no one that you intend to pass an estate to.

 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

But for most expats, not necessarily the right to remain in the country as long as they may wish.

 

The end could come at any time, and/or the continued tinkering/monkeying with burdensome, unpredictable Immigration requirements for extensions.

 

And if it did, that wouldn't be the time to be trying to unload one's lease or condo.

 

Everyone has a different appetite for risk, if somebody who lives here has no appetite, they shouldn't be here. People also need to be realistic, this scaremongering about how everything could change and we'll all be on flights out of here tomorrow, well, sorry, I don't see things that way, not even as a remote possibility. Yes, Immi. could change the rules and make them harsher, fine with me and that doesn't cause me and many others a problem.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I don't mind taking risks, well-calculated ones.

 

But if I'm going to take a financially significant risk, I think the last group in the world I'd want to take it on are the yahoos in charge of this little part of heaven.

 

[chiang mai]

25 minutes ago, slipperylobster said:

It is actually the same old sad story.

 

Farangs love to say they bought a house...but (except in a very few cases where they have established citizenship) what they actually have done is have their wife buy it.  A document is signed by the farang that his money is not involved.

 

The arguments come from realtors, and guys that hope to sell their wife's house.  It may work out well for the happily married.  It may work if the wife passes away first.  It may work if the wife never takes out that 2nd mortgage, while the husband is not looking.  

 

I do understand some farangs lease it back from their wife.....but also understand that power of attorney releasing the wife from obligations occur where the wife forges the husband's name.

 

No farang here sells a house.  His wife does that. He basically watches.

 

Condos are different

 

 

 

 

I was going to respect your argument, until you changed it and added that condo's are different, your argument is now nonsense. TGJ in post 251 argues that everyone could change, yes it could but it wont (in my view). You argue that houses are different from condo's hence you're saying there is legal protection in law for farang condo ownership but not for farang holders of usufructs on houses, that's nonsense.

 

[Naam]

1 hour ago, Scotwight said:

You are building a house on rented land.  Up to you.  I wouldn't do it.  No escape clause if Central Group wants to build a mall next to me.  I think one can buy land forever (or close to it) Check how long the Duke of Westminister has owned London - that works for me.  Newbys have bought the Brooklyn Bridge many times and building on rented land strikes me as the same kind of deal.  

 

Bottom line is we are both renting but I can move without loosing more than a small deposit.  

 

the bottom line is you obviously did not understand what i wrote as a rebuttal to your objections and present now different comments which are not relevant to our discussion. however... both, you and the Duke of Westminster, have my blessing.

[slipperylobster]

argue all you want about it......facts remain that buying a home in Thailand is risky.   

 

I am surprised any one would see it any other way.

 

Agencies, Brokers, Realtors....will always say it is easy and legal.  They have everything to gain in a sale. They will tell you that the law is interpreted wrong...that you have many rights...that the courts will protect you.  I suggest people read more about the negatives, and the horror stories already documented.

 

 It is clear that the land ownership goes to the wife...and the farang signs a statement that his money is not in the house. Wife can take out a mortgage or give the title to a money lender. She can do this without you.....  If you feel you are protected, then what happens when documents get forged, signing your rights away?   Sure....all the courts and lawyers will line up to help...lol.

 

I don't see any advantage whatsoever.   Work it any way you want....it is your money.  Go ahead.

 

Who am I to argue....been there and done that...

 

 

Edited August 19, 2016 by slipperylobster

[jadee]

I've been reading through this thread and, as a Brit, I'm curious, I'd like to ask, how do Brits retire in Thailand? The OP has around GBP350,000 and wants to retire. In the UK, people would typically buy an annuity from a company such as Aviva or Legal & General. This gives them a guaranteed inflation-proof income for life. At present the rates are low, you only get around 2,200/year for every 100,000 in savings. Do Brits buy annuities in the UK and then have their pensions transferred over? Or do they buy from other places/banks/locations? Do Thai banks offer annuities?  Thanks

 

[Scotwight]

2 hours ago, Naam said:

 

the bottom line is you obviously did not understand what i wrote as a rebuttal to your objections and present now different comments which are not relevant to our discussion. however... both, you and the Duke of Westminster, have my blessing.

We are both renting.  I rent land and house and you rent the land and have built the house for some reason that escapes me.  You have a 30 year lease and I have a month to month lease.  

 

If you want to try and convince a new retired guy with limited resources to build a house on some one else's land go ahead but I think it is bad thing to do because some people who don't read Thai Visa might actually take you seriously.   

[Johnniey]

13 minutes ago, Scotwight said:

We are both renting.  I rent land and house and you rent the land and have built the house for some reason that escapes me.  You have a 30 year lease and I have a month to month lease.  

 

If you want to try and convince a new retired guy with limited resources to build a house on some one else's land go ahead but I think it is bad thing to do because some people who don't read Thai Visa might actually take you seriously.   

I am beginning to wonder if you are hallucinating. Naam never said he has built a house. he also never tried to convince anyone to do such a thing.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Johnniey

[Scotwight]

29 minutes ago, Johnniey said:

I am beginning to wonder if you are hallucinating. Naam never said he has built a house. he also never tried to convince anyone to do such a thing.

Naam said in responding to a post about retiring in Thailand with 16mn baht, " i have no idea why anyone would rent. .....you can own a home on legally acquired land in Thailand and use this land as you please,"

 

Naam bought/built a house on rented land and posted that in a thread advising a man how to retire in Thailand with 16mn baht.  

 

I suggested renting as opposed to buying and listed some reasons why and Naam could not come up with any arguments so he made fun of my reasons instead and said he had no idea why anyone would rent.  (although he is renting land that his bought/built house is on).    You figure it out.  I think I know what he means.  He means buy (Thai style) instead of rent.   

 

For the purposes of this discussion I don't see any difference between built and bought because both homes are purchased which is my point and that is better all things considered in Thailand to rent the house (you are going to rent the land even though some claim they can buy it).

Edited August 19, 2016 by Scotwight
clarification

[wprime]

Properly hedged against inflation he can probably pull off a decent living outside of BKK but for a decent life in BKK (at about 100000 per month) he's only got about 8 years).

 

If he can get inflation beating returns he can dramatically increase the usefulness of his capital but this adds risk which is probably a bad idea at his age and situation.

[chiang mai]

9 hours ago, slipperylobster said:

argue all you want about it......facts remain that buying a home in Thailand is risky.   

 

I am surprised any one would see it any other way.

 

Agencies, Brokers, Realtors....will always say it is easy and legal.  They have everything to gain in a sale. They will tell you that the law is interpreted wrong...that you have many rights...that the courts will protect you.  I suggest people read more about the negatives, and the horror stories already documented.

 

 It is clear that the land ownership goes to the wife...and the farang signs a statement that his money is not in the house. Wife can take out a mortgage or give the title to a money lender. She can do this without you.....  If you feel you are protected, then what happens when documents get forged, signing your rights away?   Sure....all the courts and lawyers will line up to help...lol.

 

I don't see any advantage whatsoever.   Work it any way you want....it is your money.  Go ahead.

 

Who am I to argue....been there and done that...

 

 

 

"Agencies, Brokers, Realtors....will always say it is easy and legal". - you left off your list, the legal profession as a whole!  

[lannarebirth]

If only more members had given as much consideration in choosing a wife as they do in considering what assets to purchase, or not. Speaking for myself, if for some reason I lost my wife the house wouldn't mean anything to me.

[Ronuk]

13 hours ago, Scotwight said:

I think the point is that some real estate salesmen were advising the guy to buy a house or condo and other saner folks were telling him to conserve his capital and rent.

Glad I bought a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom 176sqm condo on the beach. Compared to renting such a property, it will of payed for itself in 8 years. I have no idea how you consider renting a better deal?

[chiang mai]

Only slightly better than that are the farangs who bought property when Pounds were worth 76 Baht, lived in the property for a few years and then sold at 50, and that on top of property value appreciation!  

[Scotwight]

18 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

Glad I bought a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom 176sqm condo on the beach. Compared to renting such a property, it will of payed for itself in 8 years. I have no idea how you consider renting a better deal?

 

18 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

 

So you would advise a guy retiring with only 16 mn to buy a 2 bdr 2 bath 176 sqm condo on the beach?  Because that is what this thread is about.  I can rent a 2 bdr 2 bath 176 sqm house close to the beach for 6,000 baht a month.  How much did your condo cost?

Edited August 19, 2016 by Scotwight
added words

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, Scotwight said:

 

So you would advise a guy retiring with only 16 mn to buy a 2 bdr 2 bath 176 sqm condo on the beach?  Because that is what this thread is about.  I can rent a 2 bdr 2 bath 176 sqm house close to the beach for 6,000 baht a month.  How much did your condo cost?

 

Perhaps you could, maybe, but it's not something the average westerner would be prepared to live in.

[Scotwight]

1 hour ago, lannarebirth said:

If only more members had given as much consideration in choosing a wife as they do in considering what assets to purchase, or not. Speaking for myself, if for some reason I lost my wife the house wouldn't mean anything to me.

Brings up an interesting point.  The most profitable and wise investment if living in Thailand is a good Thai wife.  I can never understand a person who would saddle himself with a partner not from Thailand and lose all the legal and logistic advantages of a Thai wife/partner.  

 

Even Immigration says you can live for half the amount as if you were single.  

 

I messed up a couple of times finding the right one but thanks to only renting and not buying anything, moving on was no hassle.  Thailand has a simple religious ceremony that satisfies the family and if it doesn't work no messy divorce.    

 

Best advice for a guy short on cash is find a wife who can save money.  

Edited August 19, 2016 by Scotwight
added words

[Ronuk]

2 minutes ago, Scotwight said:

 

So you would advise a guy retiring with only 16 mn to buy a 2 bdr 2 bath 176 sqm condo on the beach?  Because that is what this thread is about.  I can rent a 2 bdr 2 bath 176 sqm house close to the beach for 6,000 baht a month.  How much did your condo cost?

I can only say it must be some house and some location at 6000 baht a month? The guy is coming for a better life. If he has to rent a box, then he better stay at home. Rent money is dead no matter where in the world you rent. If he buys, he has an asset which if he buys in the right location and price, he won't have a problem selling. If he buys in Sticksville, yes, I agree, it's difficult to sell.
I also agree, don't get involved with buying houses unless you know what your doing and willing to take a risk.

[gk10002000]

18 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

This is just for Americans

 

Rolling over IRA proceeds into a tax-free Roth IRA can be a very good long-term financial planning move --  if it's done early enough to enjoy the benefits, and if done in a smart financial way.

 

Yes, the rollover is a taxable event, so you're going to pay taxes on the amount you roll over into a Roth. But, once in the Roth, you'll  never pay any taxes again, nor will you have any RMD (required minimum distribution) requirement.

 

As for the rollover itself, I believe, the IRS recently enacted a new rule clarifying that any taxpayer can only do ONE IRA rollover per tax year. So you have to be careful to follow that.

 

So, the normal way to handle such rollovers is to do a modest amount each year, gradually year after year, so that the amount added to your taxable income for that one year ideally doesn't push you into a higher (or much higher) tax bracket. For example, do $10K a year, and over 10 years, you've moved more than $100,000 into a totally tax free, permanent earnings account.

 

 

Should use better terminology, Converting a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA, not rollover.  And yes the distribution from the Traditional IRA is treated as regular gross income, it is on the front page of the 1040 just below the Wages, salaries and Tips line

[Scotwight]

17 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

I can only say it must be some house and some location at 6000 baht a month? The guy is coming for a better life. If he has to rent a box, then he better stay at home. Rent money is dead no matter where in the world you rent. If he buys, he has an asset which if he buys in the right location and price, he won't have a problem selling. If he buys in Sticksville, yes, I agree, it's difficult to sell.
I also agree, don't get involved with buying houses unless you know what your doing and willing to take a risk.

Since you can't buy land in Thailand I guess you are up the creek without a paddle eh?  Of course you can rent the land but that's dead money according to you eh?  6000 baht a month close to the beach in Thailand buys  you a new two bedroom house.  Take a drive up the East coast of Thailand sometime.  Why would you recommend people buy on land they don't own in a unstable 3rd world country?  I don't mind sticksville as I'm close enough to take a taxi to Pattaya or Bangkok for the day for a reasonable amount.  In this thread the guy only has 16 mn and no way is that enough to become a real estate speculator in a 3rd world country with a new government frequently on the horizon.  Thailand does not want you to subvert laws and try and own land so why fight them?

Edited August 20, 2016 by Scotwight

[Scotwight]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

Perhaps you could, maybe, but it's not something the average westerner would be prepared to live in.

Yes very nice new home.  You have to purchase AC and furnishings.  No problem with the home - I've lived in one just like it for 3 years.  Two story 4 bdr for 8.000 per month.  They are building three of them across the street from me right now.  It's a good build - I watch them every day.  I lived in CM for 3 years and got out of the place because they have an inflated idea of what property and housing is worth.  You have to look a bit for affordable housing but speaking Thai and having an educated Thai wife makes the process easy.  Which is the most important advice.  Low on cash find a helper that is good with cash.  

Edited August 20, 2016 by Scotwight
added words

[chiang mai]

13 minutes ago, Scotwight said:

Brings up an interesting point.  The most profitable and wise investment if living in Thailand is a good Thai wife.  I can never understand a person who would saddle himself with a partner not from Thailand and lose all the legal and logistic advantages of a Thai wife/partner.  

 

Even Immigration says you can live for half the amount as if you were single.  

 

I messed up a couple of times finding the right one but thanks to only renting and not buying anything, moving on was no hassle.  Thailand has a simple religious ceremony that satisfies the family and if it doesn't work no messy divorce.    

 

Best advice for a guy short on cash is find a wife who can save money.  

I'll repeat this earlier post because despite the protestations, it seems to be, nail and head!

 

"Posters who are advising against buying property in Thailand because of the risks are really, in many cases, saying something completely different. What's being said is, my life style doesn't lend itself to having a long term fixed abode where ex-girl friends can come and find me and/or I can't leave the country in a hurry should I need to. This business of political risk and economic instability is simply a cover for their lifestyle behaviour, not to be taken too seriously methinks".

[gk10002000]

19 hours ago, DrDave said:

 

It looks like you've got a really good strategy in place!  (Sorry to go a little off topic from the OP). I'm already retired, and began drawing from my IRA just last year. Currently, in the process of liquidating most equities in my IRA with an eye toward shifting more toward fixed income holdings. 

 

I agree that 6% in an REIT is minimal risk when looking at the big picture, but I'm apprehensive myself because my REIT's share price hasn't recovered since diving about 5 years ago, hence my warning not to invest heavily in an REIT, especially with interest rates certain to rise during the next few months. The other way of looking at that, I guess, is that for the past 5 years the share price has been much more stable (although in a gradual decline), but the dividend is well over 10%.

 

I'm wondering a little about your plan to convert some of your Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA. I never did it because my assumption is that it's not a simple "rollover". That is, any amount that you move to the Roth IRA will be treated as a distribution from the Traditional IRA, and subject to federal tax as regular income.  If "rolling over" 500K, then I think you'd be liable for around 140-150K in taxes. The IRS is now going to want to collect the tax that was never levied against the earnings that made up the Traditional IRA contributions, as well as any investment gains. If you have an aggressive investing strategy in the Roth IRA, I suppose you may be able to recoup the tax in a few years, but I think it's kind of a crap shoot in order to eliminate the required distributions and have tax-free distributions from the  Roth account in the future.  

Not rolling over, converting.  And yes the money you convert is counted as a distribution and goes right in your Gross Income.  So you most likely don't want to do a large amount which of course will drive you into a high tax bracket.  Most brokers are required to take some of the taxes due, I think they have to withhold 10% by law up front and you can withhold more or wait until you do your taxes and then pay whatever else is due.   You have to pick your place and time, and of course do it in a tax free state.   Maybe you have a year where you know you will have some big deductions, or other losses or whatever, or minimum other income, etc.  Yes you got to pay the tax sometime.  Sadly, I think more than 50% of Americans don't understand their basic company 401k or Traditional IRA and then when they retire, they don't are shocked when they get the huge tax bill, or in many cases they don't include the income even though they got 1099s from their broker/bank.  Then the IRS calls them and...     As for REITs, some are managed pretty well, and can adapt to rising interest rates.  High interest rates are great for REITs as it gives them more room to move if you will, but in a rising interest rate environment they are a bit tricky.  Stick to the big guns like NLY, AGNC, etc.  Think long haul

[Ronuk]

1 minute ago, Scotwight said:

Since you can't buy land in Thailand I guess you are up the creek without a paddle eh?  Of course you can rent the land but that's dead money according to you eh?  6000 baht a month close to the beach in Thailand buys  you a new two bedroom house.  Take a drive up the East coast of Thailand sometime.  Why would you recommend people buy on land they don't own in a unstable 3rd world country?  

Right. Your buying this big house now at 6000 baht a month? North, South, East and West. I have done it all over 35 years here. I have also met plenty that thought they knew how to do it, wasted there money renting until it was gone and nothing to show for it. Looking at your advice, I doubt you have ever been a position to have 16m in your pocket. If you had, by now, you would of been owning property and not renting.
The guy can buy a perfectly nice condo for between 3m and 4m in a decent area which gives him home, which will always be worth what he paid for it and still have money to work with.
As for your quote of Thailand being an unstable and 3rd World country, if you truly think that's right, It's better you get out while you can. The only thing unstable about Thailand is half the expats living there. Still, I suppose somebody has to have them?

[mcfish]

There is some dreadfull advice being thrown about. Suggesting to a western guy to go rent a house in the middle of no where 

for 6k surrounded by Thais only. Ex pats in this situation are desperate and have no other choice however the 16m baht guy is far from desperate.

Personally I would slit my wrists if I was forced to live in the above scenario

[Scotwight]

14 minutes ago, Ronuk said:

Right. Your buying this big house now at 6000 baht a month? North, South, East and West. I have done it all over 35 years here. I have also met plenty that thought they knew how to do it, wasted there money renting until it was gone and nothing to show for it. Looking at your advice, I doubt you have ever been a position to have 16m in your pocket. If you had, by now, you would of been owning property and not renting.
The guy can buy a perfectly nice condo for between 3m and 4m in a decent area which gives him home, which will always be worth what he paid for it and still have money to work with.
As for your quote of Thailand being an unstable and 3rd World country, if you truly think that's right, It's better you get out while you can. The only thing unstable about Thailand is half the expats living there. Still, I suppose somebody has to have them?

I can't own property in Thailand and neither can you.  I have been here through 3 coups.  Thailand has had more coups than any other country (I think).  Since 1932 19.  I believe this thread is about advice for a man with 16 mn cash to retire.  Since we can't advise illegal behavior you can feel free to tell a guy like the OP how to retire here and buy land legally that would make sense for a guy in his position.