High octane fuels in thailnd? Or just E85?

[Coremouse]

Hello there guys!

        I've planned a project to build my junky-cheapy Corolla's 4AFE engine to a long-rod tall-block 7A-4A hybrid, already got full silver top 20v internals( from Bang Phli junkyard for~7000bahts, crankshaft-pistons-flywheel + new seals MLS gasket from Vorajak), but now short on funds, I'll skip the project and just fit the internals in for a minor upgrade, atleast engine will be more robust, per I understand. 

 

        Problem is,  Toyota A engines kinda relatively high compression, even without 4AGE internals the car seems pushing 205-220psi on cylinders( measured by crank 10 times, dunno the cheap meter accurate or not though ), and both 20v pistons or MLS gasket will further the pressure. Manufacture's recommendation for fuel is 95 Gasohol, also fitted CNG with. 

 

    So is that safe to continue on 95( knocking or pingings possible? )? Or this gasohol car suitable for E85? Is there any "Racing fuel" could be found here in Thailand and price? Thanks a lot man! 

[juehoe]

It depends on the engine technology in your car. I assume that some engine parts are not suitable for E85.

Older car may suffer from a significant power drop.

I tested Gasohol 95, E20 and E85 with my Mazda 3 and CX-3. I didn't recognised any difference in performance but a significant difference in fuel consumption.

With E85 the fuel consumption is up to 30% higher than with Gasohol 95.

So I use now Gasohol 95, because E85 is not cheaper per kilometre and I have to more often.

My Mazda dealer recommends E85 only for long trips where the increase in fuel consumption is lower (about 15%). E85 has also some kind of purge date when storing too long in the tank.


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[ClutchClark]

95 Octane is 95-Gasahol.

[In the jungle]

You can get 100 octane avgas here at 76 Baht/litre:

 

http://www.thaiflyingclub.com/

[Coremouse]

Just now, In the jungle said:

You can get 100 octane avgas here at 76 Baht/litre:

 

http://www.thaiflyingclub.com/

Wow splendid! Now I know I have choice when neccesary, thanks a lot! 

Just wonder any avgas sales near Bangkok? :-D

[Strange]

55 minutes ago, Coremouse said:

Hello there guys!

        I've planned a project to build my junky-cheapy Corolla's 4AFE engine to a long-rod tall-block 7A-4A hybrid, already got full silver top 20v internals( from Bang Phli junkyard for~7000bahts, crankshaft-pistons-flywheel + new seals MLS gasket from Vorajak), but now short on funds, I'll skip the project and just fit the internals in for a minor upgrade, atleast engine will be more robust, per I understand. 

 

        Problem is,  Toyota A engines kinda relatively high compression, even without 4AGE internals the car seems pushing 205-220psi on cylinders( measured by crank 10 times, dunno the cheap meter accurate or not though ), and both 20v pistons or MLS gasket will further the pressure. Manufacture's recommendation for fuel is 95 Gasohol, also fitted CNG with. 

 

    So is that safe to continue on 95( knocking or pingings possible? )? Or this gasohol car suitable for E85? Is there any "Racing fuel" could be found here in Thailand and price? Thanks a lot man! 

 

OK you are getting way too far ahead of yourself on the fuels. There is some calculation that needs to be done (very simple, ill help). Your psi pressure you are measuring is "cranking compression" and has nothing to do with "compression ratio". Compression ratio (among other things) will dictate what fuel you use. 

 

Is this what you have to start with? 

 

Quote

Engine displacement: 1.6 L (1,587 cc)

Layout: DOHC Inline-4 (Straight-4)

Valves: 16, 4 for each cylinder

Redline: 6300 rpm

Compression ratio: 9.5:1

Fuel Delivery System: TCCS or MPFI

 

The compression ratio for your starter engine is 9.5:1 and that is pretty low. That alone will probably be fine with even 87 octane. 

 

So you are taking 7AFE Rotating parts and installing them in a machined 4AFE Right? 4A and 7A use the same engine block, just machined different right? 

 

Are you planning on running a Turbo?

Need all the details on the parts you are using and I can calculate your compression ratio. If you are not running a turbo, I can almost guarantee you that you will be 100% fine on either 93 or 95 octane gasohol. 

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Coremouse said:

Problem is,  Toyota A engines kinda relatively high compression, even without 4AGE internals the car seems pushing 205-220psi on cylinders( measured by crank 10 times, dunno the cheap meter accurate or not though ), and both 20v pistons or MLS gasket will further the pressure. Manufacture's recommendation for fuel is 95 Gasohol, also fitted CNG with. 

 

    So is that safe to continue on 95( knocking or pingings possible? )? Or this gasohol car suitable for E85? Is there any "Racing fuel" could be found here in Thailand and price? Thanks a lot man! 

I tried to figure out what you are doing, but I can't fully understand it. 

 

I need the block you are using, specifically the bore diameter (after any machining) 

The Head you are using, either the combustion chamber size or the engine model they came off of

The Crankshaft, either what it came out of, or the exact stroke

The rods, the exact length or what they came out of

Pistons, either the part number, the engine they came out of, or the exact compression height

The head gasket, either the compressed thickness, or the part number for the gasket itself

 

I run MLS gaskets in my 408" SBF at home (Florida) with 11.54:1 compression ratio on the street on 93 octane all day no problem with 483hp at the tire through a manual valve body automatic. 

 

There is no way to figure out what fuel you need without calculating Compression Ratio and if you are going to run a turbo. 

 

You will be fine with 95 octane gasohol up until about 11.5:1 and maybe a little more if you have a way to tune the ignition timing. 

 

[Coremouse]

46 minutes ago, Strange said:

I tried to figure out what you are doing, but I can't fully understand it. 

 

I need the block you are using, specifically the bore diameter (after any machining) 

The Head you are using, either the combustion chamber size or the engine model they came off of

The Crankshaft, either what it came out of, or the exact stroke

The rods, the exact length or what they came out of

Pistons, either the part number, the engine they came out of, or the exact compression height

The head gasket, either the compressed thickness, or the part number for the gasket itself

 

I run MLS gaskets in my 408" SBF at home (Florida) with 11.54:1 compression ratio on the street on 93 octane all day no problem with 483hp at the tire through a manual valve body automatic. 

 

There is no way to figure out what fuel you need without calculating Compression Ratio and if you are going to run a turbo. 

 

You will be fine with 95 octane gasohol up until about 11.5:1 and maybe a little more if you have a way to tune the ignition timing. 

 

Thank you so much sir! Actually I'm aim for better rod/stroke ratio, a smoother engine, to say, 7AFE block(15mm higher) + 15mm longer conrods + high compression ratio, aims for budget-friendly NA+high rev in mind.

Not sure about engine head though, 4afe head design generally fine but severly handicapped by exhaust & no aftermarket camshaft, and change head will cost much more budget. 

[Coremouse]

Current: 4AFE engine 82mm bore x 77mm stroke, everything stock with a pretty thick composite gasket

Will change to 4AGE 20V silver top pistons & OEM MLS gasket on next weekend project. 

 

In future intended change to 7AFE block, 138mm rods, better head or porting curret head. 

[Strange]

2 minutes ago, Coremouse said:

Current: 4AFE engine 82mm bore x 77mm stroke, everything stock with a pretty thick composite gasket

Will change to 4AGE 20V silver top pistons & OEM MLS gasket on next weekend project. 

 

In future intended change to 7AFE block, 138mm rods, better head or porting curret head. 

 

Well still not enough data for a proper compression ratio calculation and therefore impossible to know what fuel to run. I did a few google searches and found a lot of forums modifying the smaller 4A engines so its probably best to get on over with those guys. 

 

As for the fuels in thailand, the 95 gasohol is 10% Ethanol and in my experience, on a chassis dyno with 93 regular compared to 93 gasohol (in the states) we were able to advance the timing at WOT on 93 gasohol more than on 93 regular and pick up a few HP. The 93 gasohol had better resistance to ignition than 93 regular. 

 

E85, you can run that, but as another poster said, the engine will consume about 30% more fuel than on 95. This means a larger fuel pump, larger injectors, larger fuel line, larger fuel rail and a way to tune it. 

[Coremouse]

Googled for more precise data, 

 

4AFE: bore 80.7mm stroke 77mm; Compressed gasket 1.4mm; Combustion chamber 30.25cc( not sure ); stated CR 9.5

20V Silver Top: same bore & stroke; Compressed gasket 1.2mm; Combustion chamber 34.5cc; stated CR 10.5

OEM 7AFE MLS gasket 0.4mm( not sure )

 

Will put 20V ST pistons in 4AFE pistons' place, along with 0.4mm MLS gasket

 

did a quick messy calc myself shows new static CR will be ~12.2? 

[Strange]

34 minutes ago, Coremouse said:

Googled for more precise data, 

 

4AFE: bore 80.7mm stroke 77mm; Compressed gasket 1.4mm; Combustion chamber 30.25cc( not sure ); stated CR 9.5

20V Silver Top: same bore & stroke; Compressed gasket 1.2mm; Combustion chamber 34.5cc; stated CR 10.5

OEM 7AFE MLS gasket 0.4mm( not sure )

 

Will put 20V ST pistons in 4AFE pistons' place, along with 0.4mm MLS gasket

 

did a quick messy calc myself shows new static CR will be ~12.2? 

 

Will the 20v piston (5 valve per cylinder) fit and be compatible with a cylinder head with a 4 valve configuration? 

[ClutchClark]

4 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Will the 20v piston (5 valve per cylinder) fit and be compatible with a cylinder head with a 4 valve configuration? 

 

I would be surprised if that is an optimal combination.

[Coremouse]

Just now, Strange said:

 

Will the 20v piston (5 valve per cylinder) fit and be compatible with a cylinder head with a 4 valve configuration? 

Have to find out when dissaembled. looking from above they are much similar plus 4A all uninterference engines. 

[Coremouse]

Well, suppose I'm big mistaken, then get one used 20V head will also solve the octane problem, seems the most likely outcome

 

Damn I should buy that whole Black Top 6MT from start. 

[Strange]

17 minutes ago, Coremouse said:

24 minutes ago, Strange said:

Will the 20v piston (5 valve per cylinder) fit and be compatible with a cylinder head with a 4 valve configuration? 

Have to find out when dissaembled. looking from above they are much similar plus 4A all uninterference engines. 

 

The 4A may be not be an interference motor stock, but when you take a piston built for a certain head, and change it to an engine with a different head, could it then become an interference motor? 

 

Can I ask ya, what will be the benefit of tearing the entire engine down just to replace the pistons? I know you want to increase compression, but with everything stock, I'm not seeing how that will be beneficial. Is the car Mass Airflow or Speed Density? 

 

Anyway if you want to tear it down and run it, thats cool too. I can't tell you if its compatible, but if you give me the 20v piston CC Dish (assuming the piston compression height is the same as the 4AFE), and the exact part number for the head gasket, I can let you know the compression ratio. 

 

Need all these number accurately before the math can be done. 

 

[Coremouse]

Gasket number Toyota 11115-16121, piston dish cc pretty hard to find, well someone calculated if stated 10.5 CR/0 deck clearance is accurate then it's 1cc dish. 

 

Anyway thanks everyone for helping, alot learned, before learning it hard way

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Coremouse said:

Well, suppose I'm big mistaken, then get one used 20V head will also solve the octane problem, seems the most likely outcome

 

Damn I should buy that whole Black Top 6MT from start. 

 

7 minutes ago, Coremouse said:

Gasket number Toyota 11115-16121, piston dish cc pretty hard to find, well someone calculated if stated 10.5 CR/0 deck clearance is accurate then it's 1cc dish. 

 

Anyway thanks everyone for helping, alot learned, before learning it hard way

 

Yeah man it gets complicated. 

 

Best bet here in Thailand is to get the entire engine as well as the wiring harness and ECU/PCM. Run the engine you want and use the harness/ECU as well so you don't need to do any tuning.