May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Khun Han]

28 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

They fouled up the election through a combination of poor planning, poor execution and ignoring the advice of their most senior election strategist. Since the same people responsible for making these decisions are still in place it is hardly an inspiring situation given the importance of getting a good deal with the EU.


Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

Actually, two of them were sacked.

[pitrevie]

11 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Actually, two of them were sacked.

But not the main culprit. It used to go something like the buck stops here.

[dick dasterdly]

6 hours ago, pitrevie said:

It wasn't until 2015 that support for the death penalty dropped below 50%. It was the very point that Margaret Thatcher made when stating her opposition to referendums. If we had held a referendum on the death penalty then it would not have been abolished but Parliament took the lead and the death penalty was abolished. Its why we have a representative democracy we send MPs to Parliament to use their judgement.

Nowhere is this better explained than in Edmund Burke, Speech to the Electors of Bristol

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch13s7.html

 

Which is one of the reasons why there was never a referendum on the death penalty.

 

But the govt. thought they could win a referendum on stay/leave the EU, and with the rise of UKIP/increasing hostility about the lack of a referendum (even though I think it was a manifesto promise previously?) - they decided to hold a referendum and abide by the result.

[soalbundy]

11 hours ago, aright said:

Good point. They always want to tell us that leaving the EU will be a disaster for us but seldom talk about the Valhalla that is the EU. It would be interesting to know where they think the EU will be 20 years from now. In my opinion it will implode because of the loss of the UK's contribution and the mill stones Greece, Italy, Portugal and to a lesser extent Spain. It will move to greater federalisation because that's the only way it can survive and will stubbornly stick to a single currency across the zone which has crippled the Southern economies and led to civil unrest in some countries. If it survives I eventually see it as  a United States with a single policy making body which will overrule the individual governments.

I'm sure remainers wouldn't agree with my view but it would be nice to know what they think their Eden will be like 20 years from now.    Let us know please. 

I'm a remainer and I agree, it has to become like the USA, one federal state, it is what I would like to see. As for the EU imploding, I don't think so, the Euro is gaining in strength and production is on the rise,even in the southern countries which shows investor confidence, unlike the pound which is dropping like a stone and even that isn't having much of a positive effect on exports. The EU is a work in progress, it will evolve as it has to, the UK is a dinosaur living on the past glories of crushing the life's blood out of other countries and is being kept alive by foreign firms still (for how long) producing in the UK, even the great British icon Rolls Royce (cars) is owned by BMW, it was interesting to hear a British reporter asking one of the board members how to spell Rolls Royce during an interview when it was being sold.

[pitrevie]

6 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which is one of the reasons why there was never a referendum on the death penalty.

 

But the govt. thought they could win a referendum on stay/leave the EU, and with the rise of UKIP/increasing hostility about the lack of a referendum (even though I think it was a manifesto promise previously?) - they decided to hold a referendum and abide by the result.

Which is the reason as Margaret Thatcher said why we do not have referendums and why she was opposed to them. We elect members of parliament to use their judgement, its what they get paid for not to abrogate their responsibilities. 

The rise of UKIP, you mean the PM was panicked by a party that failed to get a single MP elected and was wiped out at the last election. Then Farage told us that there was no need for him to stand as May had adopted all UKIP's policies and she ended up getting stuffed.

[dick dasterdly]

7 hours ago, sandyf said:

Quite, but it would be the brexiteers worst nightmare to be part of a similarly successful union.

I disagree.  If the lower paid and average salary workers in the UK had prospered, they would have accepted the overpaid/over bureaucratic/wasteful EU, and only grumbled about these traits.

[nauseus]

25 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I'm a remainer and I agree, it has to become like the USA, one federal state, it is what I would like to see. As for the EU imploding, I don't think so, the Euro is gaining in strength and production is on the rise,even in the southern countries which shows investor confidence, unlike the pound which is dropping like a stone and even that isn't having much of a positive effect on exports. The EU is a work in progress, it will evolve as it has to, the UK is a dinosaur living on the past glories of crushing the life's blood out of other countries and is being kept alive by foreign firms still (for how long) producing in the UK, even the great British icon Rolls Royce (cars) is owned by BMW, it was interesting to hear a British reporter asking one of the board members how to spell Rolls Royce during an interview when it was being sold.

The EU is a membership of pre-existing sovereign nations and can never emulate the evolution and makeup of the USA.

 

The EU has every chance of imploding, look at the state of it even now! The Euro's apparent strength is mainly due to the Dollar's recent weakening. The Euro is only in a short-term period of relative strength and only just above it's value at launch. 

 

If a reporter has to ask that kind of question he/she must be an uneducated dimwit anyway.  

Edited September 11, 2017 by nauseus

[Grouse]

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/republicans-tories-face-challenge-nationalism/

 

Just read this over breakfast at Hotel du Vin in Winchester.

 

Very good piece and represents my personal views accurately

 

Recommended reading for those who actually give a damn!

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The EU is a membership of pre-existing sovereign nations and can never emulate the evolution and makeup of the USA. The EU has every chance of imploding, look at the sate of it even now! The Euro's apparent strength is mainly due to the Dollar's recent weakening. If a reporter has to ask that kind of question he/she must be an uneduccated dimwit anyway.  

The Euro is strong in its own right even Dragi trying to talk it down didn't help, it went straight up again, it's a dilemma, Dragi needs to get inflation up and reduce QE for this he needs a weaker Euro but the Euro just keeps climbing.You cant lie to the markets.

The different states were sovereign in their own right before the USA became a country and different economic strengths exist in each state even today,some poor some rich.

Edited September 11, 2017 by soalbundy

[Grouse]

12 hours ago, aright said:

Speak for yourself my wife makes all my decisions.

I would only add seriously  "One persons wise man can be another mans fool"  Boris Johnson....first cab off the rank.   

And THAT is why we have elections!

[dick dasterdly]

 

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

You are wrong as usual. The Tories were about 20% clear until they issued their suicidal manifesto - that is fact!

Which brings us back to asking why on earth they came up with some manifesto policies sure to alienate so many voters?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

I agree ... the EU as it is is heading for doo doo land!

It doesn't seem so now does it?

[tomacht8]

42 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I'm a remainer and I agree, it has to become like the USA, one federal state, it is what I would like to see. As for the EU imploding, I don't think so, the Euro is gaining in strength and production is on the rise,even in the southern countries which shows investor confidence, unlike the pound which is dropping like a stone and even that isn't having much of a positive effect on exports. The EU is a work in progress, it will evolve as it has to, the UK is a dinosaur living on the past glories of crushing the life's blood out of other countries and is being kept alive by foreign firms still (for how long) producing in the UK, even the great British icon Rolls Royce (cars) is owned by BMW, it was interesting to hear a British reporter asking one of the board members how to spell Rolls Royce during an interview when it was being sold.

I find the basic idea of a common Europe also good.
Common strict external borders, also a common European army, freedom of movement within Europe, free choice of residence, etc.

Admittedly not everything is perfect.
I am a clear opponent of the current immigration policy.
Europe has its own problems.
Europe does not have to import all the economic problems of Africa and the Near East into his home. Would go so far, that the handing over of a European passport is only possible, if family ties exist. If not, at the earliest after 15 years the hand out of a European passport is possible with proof of a successful integration and an oath to the flag / constitution.

I see Europe here mainly in the context of the overpopulated planet and the upcoming struggle for resources. The big opponents such as China, the USA and in the future India position themselves much more closed and aggressive. Just think of the current big up buying wave of fertile fields, water resources and technology worldwide.

If Europe does not manage to position itself in a closed formation, in the worst case, it will fall apart again in small states, then Europe has nothing to say on the world stage.

 

[Khun Han]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Which brings us back to asking why on earth they came up with some manifesto policies sure to alienate so many voters?

 

Maybe they thought their position of apparent strength was a good opportunity to push a few unpopular policies through? Or maybe someone with a lot of influence tried to run May's government aground? Who knows?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Wrong in the case! The Tory election promise was not to hold an advisory referendum. The British people were given a constitutionally binding promise to the effect that they would be given the deciding say in a referendum, in which the majority would prevail, with no minimum thresholds set for the majority vote to be binding. 

 

The European Union Referendum Act 2015 authorized holding the referendum and specified that the question would be: “Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”  By this act, parliament consented to allow this important decision to be made by the people (direct electoral sovereignty). 

 

The referendum result mandates parliament to act upon the wishes of the majority. 

The facts!

 

Bring me an apple ?

[dick dasterdly]

 

42 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Which is one of the reasons why there was never a referendum on the death penalty.

 

But the govt. thought they could win a referendum on stay/leave the EU, and with the rise of UKIP/increasing hostility about the lack of a referendum (even though I think it was a manifesto promise previously?) - they decided to hold a referendum and abide by the result.

 

30 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Which is the reason as Margaret Thatcher said why we do not have referendums and why she was opposed to them. We elect members of parliament to use their judgement, its what they get paid for not to abrogate their responsibilities. 

The rise of UKIP, you mean the PM was panicked by a party that failed to get a single MP elected and was wiped out at the last election. Then Farage told us that there was no need for him to stand as May had adopted all UKIP's policies and she ended up getting stuffed.

Talk about deliberately ignoring the point of a post!

 

There was a referendum, and the PM said the government would abide by the result for the reasons outlined in my post - although I should have included the tory party also tearing itself apart at the time.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

You are wrong as usual. The Tories were about 20% clear until they issued their suicidal manifesto - that is fact!

So you believe opinion polls?

 

You do realise that 78% of statistics are just made up ?

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/republicans-tories-face-challenge-nationalism/

 

Just read this over breakfast at Hotel du Vin in Winchester.

 

Very good piece and represents my personal views accurately

 

Recommended reading for those who actually give a damn!

So I read it and I'm sure it's right up your street, Grouse.

 

Yet so serious is the party’s plight that one poll found Tory activists think this cartoon toff is their best choice for next leader. One poll? What is this? I don't know how you can enjoy your kippers and absorb this tripe at the same time!

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

But not the main culprit. It used to go something like the buck stops here.

Remember Carrington? Tories used to be honourable people...(except Tebbit)

[pitrevie]

17 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Which brings us back to asking why on earth they came up with some manifesto policies sure to alienate so many voters?

FORWARD TOGETHER: THE CONSERVATIVE MANIFESTO

The next five years are the most challenging that Britain has faced in my lifetime.

Brexit will define us: our place in the world, our economic security and our future prosperity.

So now more than ever, Britain needs a strong and stable government to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people.

Now more than ever, Britain needs strong and stable leadership to make the most of the opportunities Brexit brings for hardworking families.

Now more than ever, Britain needs a clear plan.

This manifesto, Forward, Together: Our Plan for a Stronger Britain and a Prosperous Future will meet the great challenges of our time, beyond Brexit.

With this plan and with a strong hand through Brexit, we will build a stronger, fairer, more prosperous Britain, for all of us.

 

Five mentions of Brexit on the opening page. I think its quite clear from the Conservative Manifesto that the  election was called because of Brexit and was about Brexit.

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I disagree.  If the lower paid and average salary workers in the UK had prospered, they would have accepted the overpaid/over bureaucratic/wasteful EU, and only grumbled about these traits.

You think these people are going to do better post Brexit. I'm sorry to say this but you are very wrong. Sad really ?

[pitrevie]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

 

Talk about deliberately ignoring the point of a post!

 

There was a referendum, and the PM said the government would abide by the result for the reasons outlined in my post - although I should have included the tory party also tearing itself apart at the time.

I don't know how many times this has to be stated no government can bind a future government to any course of action. Had Cameron stayed in power what he said could have been carried out, he is no longer PM and his government fell with him. We are even in a new parliament and this PM went to the country and asked for a mandate for hard Brexit and guess what happened.

[pitrevie]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Remember Carrington? Tories used to be honourable people...(except Tebbit)

Even the most oft vilified minister of the Labour government Mandelson resigned twice and never had to be pushed, the first for a very trivial offence and the second time he was cleared of any wrongdoing.

May will need to be dragged out of Downing Street, she is just like Boris no principles just ambition. Then its back to the 18th century for their man of the moment.

[dick dasterdly]

 

12 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Remember Carrington? Tories used to be honourable people...(except Tebbit)

The tories/vast majority of politicians are/were far from "honourable"..... 

Edited September 11, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[nauseus]

50 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The Euro is strong in its own right even Dragi trying to talk it down didn't help, it went straight up again, it's a dilemma, Dragi needs to get inflation up and reduce QE for this he needs a weaker Euro but the Euro just keeps climbing.You cant lie to the markets.

The different states were sovereign in their own right before the USA became a country and different economic strengths exist in each state even today,some poor some rich.

And how strong is this, historically?

 

And they were/are states (colonies), not nations.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by nauseus

[nauseus]

18 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

FORWARD TOGETHER: THE CONSERVATIVE MANIFESTO

The next five years are the most challenging that Britain has faced in my lifetime.

Brexit will define us: our place in the world, our economic security and our future prosperity.

So now more than ever, Britain needs a strong and stable government to get the best Brexit deal for our country and its people.

Now more than ever, Britain needs strong and stable leadership to make the most of the opportunities Brexit brings for hardworking families.

Now more than ever, Britain needs a clear plan.

This manifesto, Forward, Together: Our Plan for a Stronger Britain and a Prosperous Future will meet the great challenges of our time, beyond Brexit.

With this plan and with a strong hand through Brexit, we will build a stronger, fairer, more prosperous Britain, for all of us.

 

Five mentions of Brexit on the opening page. I think its quite clear from the Conservative Manifesto that the  election was called because of Brexit and was about Brexit.

Brexit and the associated negotiations were the reasons that May used to call the election but it's also quite clear that you are intentionally missing out the the sections of the manifesto w.r.t. social care and welfare that resulted in such a cocked-up campaign and poor result for the Conservatives!

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I disagree.  If the lower paid and average salary workers in the UK had prospered, they would have accepted the overpaid/over bureaucratic/wasteful EU, and only grumbled about these traits.

 

14 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You think these people are going to do better post Brexit. I'm sorry to say this but you are very wrong. Sad really ?

And I'm sorry that you think everyone with a different point of view is a "sad" case....

 

Will the UK prosper if (a very deliberate 'if' ....) it leaves the EU?  I've no idea - and neither has anyone else.  It's all opinion.

[nauseus]

48 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It doesn't seem so now does it?

Unemployment in the south, rebellion in the east plus Brexit. Not particularly harmonious at the moment is it? It wont get better, it will continue to deteriorate. The chances for necessary reforms have come..and gone.

[dick dasterdly]

23 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Even the most oft vilified minister of the Labour government Mandelson resigned twice and never had to be pushed, the first for a very trivial offence and the second time he was cleared of any wrongdoing.

May will need to be dragged out of Downing Street, she is just like Boris no principles just ambition. Then its back to the 18th century for their man of the moment.

Happy to hear that you think Mandleson was/is hated by the electorate without cause - much like his boss .

 

Agree about Boris.

Edited September 11, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[nauseus]

47 minutes ago, Grouse said:

The facts!

 

Bring me an apple ?

Yes fact. The result is a constitutionally binding instruction that remainers are doing everything they can to defy, disrupt or ignore. Except for for Lib Dems, political parties are aware of this and so included support for Brexit in their election manifestos. You may have one overripe bendy banana. The Lib Dems got a lot less!