May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[AlexRich]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

The UK will pay it's share towards EU employees' pension rights until it leaves.  Why should it continue to pay after it is no longer an employer?

 

The same applies to leases/programme funding.

 

The only reason for the UK to pay any additional money (and why is the UK's share of EU assets never mentioned by politicians/media?) - is for an agreement on favourable trading terms.  i.e. the " "goodwill" element, that we'll pay in order to get agreement and cooperation on a trading relationship going forward." 

 

Except the EU is ignoring this inextricable element, and demanding the UK offer unspecified and unjustified amounts of money in advance of any trade talks.....

Some of these people are now in retirement and a commitment was made to them, a proportion of which is down to us.

 

What happened to “they need us more than we need them”? Like a lot of the nonsense spouted by hard line Brexiteers this appears not to be true. We are paying because the Government know that they need to maintain a trading relationship with the economic areas we trade most with. Otherwise they would be paying us.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Except the EU is ignoring this inextricable element, and demanding the UK offer unspecified and unjustified amounts of money in advance of any trade talks.....

I can't quote EU law, but in English law, extortion, and demanding money with menace, are crimes.

[AlexRich]

1 minute ago, talahtnut said:

I can't quote EU law, but in English law, extortion, and demanding money with menace, are crimes.

You pay your golf club fees and you use the facilities. Now you want to give up your membership but still use the course? So now you have to pay but get no say on how the club is run, and when the rules change you’ll have to go along with them. 

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Some of these people are now in retirement and a commitment was made to them, a proportion of which is down to us.

 

What happened to “they need us more than we need them”? Like a lot of the nonsense spouted by hard line Brexiteers this appears not to be true. We are paying because the Government know that they need to maintain a trading relationship with the economic areas we trade most with. Otherwise they would be paying us.

The UK government has been accused of having no plan for Brexit. It seems to me that the EU has no plan in place for the exit of any member. I have to assume that's because they never considered that any country would actually dare to try to leave. They got it wrong, just like Cameron did.

.

 

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by nauseus

[AlexRich]

Just now, nauseus said:

The UK government has been accused of having no plan for Brexit. It seems to me that he EU has no plan in place for the exit of any member. I have to assume that's because they never considered that any country would actually dare to try to leave. They got it wrong, just like Cameron did.

.

 

 

But it certainly looks like they will be very well compensated. And it doesn’t seem to have harmed their economy, now growing faster than both the US and the slowing UK. I hark back to the period around the vote when posters on here were predicting imminent collapse and implosion of the EU ... my comment at the time was that all trade areas go though bad times, but come through them. It remains to be seen who “got it wrong”.

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, talahtnut said:

The English working class has known nothing else for millennia.

UK news media is full of propaganda, lies, and trivia.

Not anything I said. You should realise it is against forum rules to selectively extract text from a post.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, AlexRich said:

Some of these people are now in retirement and a commitment was made to them, a proportion of which is down to us.

 

What happened to “they need us more than we need them”? Like a lot of the nonsense spouted by hard line Brexiteers this appears not to be true. We are paying because the Government know that they need to maintain a trading relationship with the economic areas we trade most with. Otherwise they would be paying us.

UK has a trade deficit with the EU..They need us..they should be nice to us instead of getting all titsy about it.    I they succeed, I'll flog my 2cv.

[aright]

5 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Not anything I said. You should realise it is against forum rules to selectively extract text from a post.

Not the rules again. I had a post withdrawn because you claimed I made a personal attack on you when in reality I was attacking your ideas not you personally. It seems whenever you get on the wrong side of an argument you call on the rules to save you. Oversensitive, heat, kitchen and out come to mind.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, AlexRich said:

You pay your golf club fees and you use the facilities. Now you want to give up your membership but still use the course? So now you have to pay but get no say on how the club is run, and when the rules change you’ll have to go along with them. 

After a round of golf, I do not expect to pay to leave the course or the clubhouse.

If that was the case, I would play elsewhere.

 

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, aright said:

Past referenda have no bearing on the last one. They are yesterday's politics

You are right, what you think of the result is totally irrelevant. Unfortunately what you have not learnt however is to respect the result which is effectively the will of over 17million people for change. Is the lack of respect bought about as a result of class?

Your views on Brexit are subjective and don't override the views of 17 million voters.

As far as David Cameron is concerned, while he is open to criticism, he is yesterdays man, stop thinking backwards, it's not helpful! Blame anyone you like for the result but it alters nothing.The decision has been made.

The so called "Popular Democracy", your Brexiteer myth,  has turned European politics upside down, as a result of which many right wing groups (some nasty) have come to the fore. Angela Merkel has not been able to form a government as a result of "Popular Democracy"

"Popular Democracy" is such a myth the USA has created a web site ?

https://populardemocracy.org/

 

Show me where I mentioned the USA or any other country

The UK operates a parliamentary democracy whether you like it or not. Until they change the constitution, referendums are nothing more than a state sponsored opinion poll.

A decision was taken by parliament and as such, that decision can be adjusted or reversed as parliament see fit. It is not over till its over and you must learn to live with that.

[nauseus]

38 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

But it certainly looks like they will be very well compensated. And it doesn’t seem to have harmed their economy, now growing faster than both the US and the slowing UK. I hark back to the period around the vote when posters on here were predicting imminent collapse and implosion of the EU ... my comment at the time was that all trade areas go though bad times, but come through them. It remains to be seen who “got it wrong”.

I'm sure that the EU will get what they fairly due, which is not 40B unless it includes extra for this "transition" period.

 

The EU slight growth is very recent and it won't last - still far too much debt and high risk of debt default in the EU. 

 

 

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, sandyf said:

Not anything I said. You should realise it is against forum rules to selectively extract text from a post.

My apologies, but why is the facility there? .. However, I am willing to leave the forum if you pay me 50 billion Euros. 

[aright]

9 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Show me where I mentioned the USA or any other country

The UK operates a parliamentary democracy whether you like it or not. Until they change the constitution, referendums are nothing more than a state sponsored opinion poll.

A decision was taken by parliament and as such, that decision can be adjusted or reversed as parliament see fit. It is not over till its over and you must learn to live with that.

It's not as convoluted as you make it out to be although it's in the interest of Remainers to make it so.. The US example was to show popular democracy is alive and kicking. If it is a myth perhaps you could explain what brand of politics has increased significantly the votes for far right parties in the EU?  As for parliament....They endorsed Brexit by 469 votes to 89 ( yes I know Remainers will regard this a close vote)  and you are now suggesting they will betray the will of the people . If they do welcome to the khilafat

I will repeat what I said the decision has been made and you must learn to live with that

[soalbundy]

populism gave the world Hitler

[aright]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

populism gave the world Hitler

Spot on. Hitler was regarded as a saviour by many. I find it difficult to understand why the Remainers want to remain with a group advocating more federalism, run by unelected officials, in an environment threatening to be overrun by far right parties 

[SheungWan]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

Spot on. Hitler was regarded as a saviour by many. I find it difficult to understand why the Remainers want to remain with a group advocating more federalism, run by unelected officials, in an environment threatening to be overrun by far right parties 

The far-right parties in the UK supported Brexit. Well fancy that! Usual Brexiteer junk masquerading as informed comment.

[soalbundy]

8 minutes ago, aright said:

Spot on. Hitler was regarded as a saviour by many. I find it difficult to understand why the Remainers want to remain with a group advocating more federalism, run by unelected officials, in an environment threatening to be overrun by far right parties 

federalism isn't a bad thing in itself. The EU is still a work in progress and the EU parliament is elected

[tomacht8]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I'm sure that the EU will get what they fairly due, which is not 40B unless it includes extra for this "transition" period.

 

The EU slight growth is very recent and it won't last - still far too much debt and high risk of debt default in the EU. 

 

 

Yes, many European countries have high debts.
The UK currently has 1,89 trillion £ debt.
Is 29.672 £ per head (Debt per capita), Or  33.404 € (Debt per capita).
The UK has slightly less debt per capita than Greece (35.958 €) and slightly more than Austria (31.612 €).

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, soalbundy said:

populism gave the world Hitler

Hitler delivered the most successful economy ever.  Until the war.

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The far-right parties in the UK supported Brexit. Well fancy that! Usual Brexiteer junk masquerading as informed comment.

You been drinking again?

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, aright said:

Yes! Prime Minister Rees-Mogg has nice cadence don't you think.

I was referring to coalition government

 

Mogg's contrived RP is passe. 

[SheungWan]

32 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Hitler delivered the most successful economy ever.  Until the war.

Know-nothing nonsense. Typical rubbish of the type one finds on Neo-Nazi websites

[Grouse]

37 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Yes, many European countries have high debts.
The UK currently has 1,89 trillion £ debt.
Is 29.672 £ per head (Debt per capita), Or  33.404 € (Debt per capita).
The UK has slightly less debt per capita than Greece (35.958 €) and slightly more than Austria (31.612 €).

For the less travelled (Brexiter) types, note that , and . are used diffently in Europe. So 1.89 trillion ( million million) and 29,672 GBP. (education)

[tomacht8]

Germany: Goldman Sachs plans with two major European offshoots after the Brexit
November 20, 2017, 11:50 am Source: afp

Paris (AFP) Goldman Sachs CEO, Lloyd Blankfein, has confirmed the plans of the US investment bank in Europe for the period after Brexit. Goldman Sachs will have "two European headquarters", one in Frankfurt am Main and one in Paris, said Blankfein to the French newspaper "Le Figaro" on Monday. Brexit forces the bank to "decentralize" its business. Frankfurt and Paris have been selected because Germany and France are the largest European economies.

[nauseus]

52 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

federalism isn't a bad thing in itself. The EU is still a work in progress and the EU parliament is elected

The EU is a failing project with no reform and therefore no progression except for the size and number of their pensions.

 

The EU parliament is elected but expected to do what it is told - no real power - the most expensive limp wrist in Europe.

[tomacht8]

Report from a German freight forwarder
The trucks drive back empty
About the Brexit is still negotiating. But the economy is already anticipating many consequences.

Achim Junker has already revised the plans of his drivers, recalculated their working hours, calculated their new routes. While representatives of the British government in Brussels are still negotiating how the exit of Great Britain from the EU is to take place, the forwarder from Blankenbach in Lower Franconia already provides facts. He sends fewer and fewer trucks towards the island. It used to be ten 40-tonners every week, the entrepreneur says, but now there are only four or five. "Some colleagues have already completely withdrawn from the market," says the entrepreneur.

No one yet knows what Brexit will look like at the end of the negotiations in March 2019, yet it is already casting its shadow ahead. Too vague are the ideas of Theresa May, as the Brexit and its proposed in Florence transitional solution should look like. Too unsure what kind of free trade agreement the EU will eventually reach with the British. The economy is reacting, trade between Germany and the United Kingdom is suffering. Exports from Germany to Great Britain, which had risen sharply after 2012, have been decreasing slightly since June 2016. At that time, the British voted for the exit. Conversely, exports from the UK to Germany have been particularly striking, from 1.65 million tonnes in June 2016 to 1.48 million in June 2017. And this despite the fact that the British pound has clearly lost value during this period - that would have actually need to boost British exports.

In Blankenheim, Achim Junker knows exactly why. The forwarder just has to think about his customers. In the past, his drivers drove to automotive suppliers in Aschaffenburg and Frankfurt, where they loaded parts such as fenders or other materials. From there, the trucks drove the semi-finished products hundreds of miles west, through Belgium, through France, to England. There, they delivered the products to companies that made car seats out of the materials or painted the fenders. The trade was so busy that the drivers fully loaded also returned to Germany. Junker's lorries lined up in a stream of three million trucks a year, shuttling between Britain and continental Europe to deliver goods. They are all part of tightly knit supply chains and production processes, which are difficult to re-allocate, but an example of what is possible when there are no customs duties and goods can be traded freely between countries - as in the EU's internal market.

But now? "The business is not running anymore," says Junker. One customer, a German company, switched immediately after the referendum on Brexit in the UK. "He was looking for producers in Eastern Europe at the next trade fair," says Junker, "so the business was gone for us." The entrepreneur observes that more and more companies in Germany are switching without hanging on to the big bell. The forwarder sees it on the websites of freight exchanges that he can access. At present, on the return trips from the UK to continental Europe, 67 percent of the cargo hold of the trucks are empty and only 33 percent are loaded with cargo, sometimes only 25 percent, he has observed. "The price for the outward journey can not be so good as to go back empty-handed," says Junker.

The economy, as experienced by the freight forwarder, anticipates the Brexit. There are still no tariffs, nor are there trade restrictions, nor is there a bureaucracy at the border. But because the German companies expect it, they are already looking for new customers and suppliers. Companies do not even want to risk having to shut down their machines just because a truck with components stuck in customs at the border.

 

Figures from the Federal Statistical Office show Junker's impressions: German exports to the United Kingdom fell by three percent in the first half of this year compared to the same period of the previous year. At the same time, exports to other EU countries increased by six percent. Trade in Europe is flourishing - business with Great Britain is stagnating.

And nothing happens that could provide confidence. Prime Minister May has not been able to point out a clear line in her speech in Florence; her cabinet is too divided.

If the UK leaves the European Economic Area and the Customs Union, exporters and importers have to complete extensive formalities, there will have to be border controls, trade agreements or not. That means additional costs and, depending on trade agreements, tariffs. A digital customs system, as the British imagine for the future, would be a novelty, nowhere in the world, has never been tested. In parliamentary committees, representatives of the ministries condescendingly admit to parliamentarians that they have no idea how such a system should be implemented at all.

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

Yes, many European countries have high debts.
The UK currently has 1,89 trillion £ debt.
Is 29.672 £ per head (Debt per capita), Or  33.404 € (Debt per capita).
The UK has slightly less debt per capita than Greece (35.958 €) and slightly more than Austria (31.612 €).

By %/GDP countries with higher debt than the UK are: Greece, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Belgium, Portugal, Spain and  France.

Edited November 20, 2017 by nauseus
with

[Jip99]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

By %/GDP countries higher debt than the UK are: Greece, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Belgium, Portugal, Spain and  France.

 

 

A far more relevant statistic than simple debt/capita.

[tomacht8]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

By %/GDP countries higher debt than the UK are: Greece, Italy, Portugal, Cyprus, Belgium, Portugal, Spain and  France.

Absolutely right.
The representation of per capita debt is a good measure to understand the debt plastically.
It is not that the UK is here in the forefront of debt-free states in Europe.
BTW
The UK contribution to the EU membership costs exactly 0.48% of the UK GDP

[talahtnut]

15 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Report from a German freight forwarder
The trucks drive back empty
About the Brexit is still negotiating. But the economy is already anticipating many consequences.

Achim Junker has already revised the plans of his drivers, recalculated their working hours, calculated their new routes. While representatives of the British government in Brussels are still negotiating how the exit of Great Britain from the EU is to take place, the forwarder from Blankenbach in Lower Franconia already provides facts. He sends fewer and fewer trucks towards the island. It used to be ten 40-tonners every week, the entrepreneur says, but now there are only four or five. "Some colleagues have already completely withdrawn from the market," says the entrepreneur.

No one yet knows what Brexit will look like at the end of the negotiations in March 2019, yet it is already casting its shadow ahead. Too vague are the ideas of Theresa May, as the Brexit and its proposed in Florence transitional solution should look like. Too unsure what kind of free trade agreement the EU will eventually reach with the British. The economy is reacting, trade between Germany and the United Kingdom is suffering. Exports from Germany to Great Britain, which had risen sharply after 2012, have been decreasing slightly since June 2016. At that time, the British voted for the exit. Conversely, exports from the UK to Germany have been particularly striking, from 1.65 million tonnes in June 2016 to 1.48 million in June 2017. And this despite the fact that the British pound has clearly lost value during this period - that would have actually need to boost British exports.

In Blankenheim, Achim Junker knows exactly why. The forwarder just has to think about his customers. In the past, his drivers drove to automotive suppliers in Aschaffenburg and Frankfurt, where they loaded parts such as fenders or other materials. From there, the trucks drove the semi-finished products hundreds of miles west, through Belgium, through France, to England. There, they delivered the products to companies that made car seats out of the materials or painted the fenders. The trade was so busy that the drivers fully loaded also returned to Germany. Junker's lorries lined up in a stream of three million trucks a year, shuttling between Britain and continental Europe to deliver goods. They are all part of tightly knit supply chains and production processes, which are difficult to re-allocate, but an example of what is possible when there are no customs duties and goods can be traded freely between countries - as in the EU's internal market.

But now? "The business is not running anymore," says Junker. One customer, a German company, switched immediately after the referendum on Brexit in the UK. "He was looking for producers in Eastern Europe at the next trade fair," says Junker, "so the business was gone for us." The entrepreneur observes that more and more companies in Germany are switching without hanging on to the big bell. The forwarder sees it on the websites of freight exchanges that he can access. At present, on the return trips from the UK to continental Europe, 67 percent of the cargo hold of the trucks are empty and only 33 percent are loaded with cargo, sometimes only 25 percent, he has observed. "The price for the outward journey can not be so good as to go back empty-handed," says Junker.

The economy, as experienced by the freight forwarder, anticipates the Brexit. There are still no tariffs, nor are there trade restrictions, nor is there a bureaucracy at the border. But because the German companies expect it, they are already looking for new customers and suppliers. Companies do not even want to risk having to shut down their machines just because a truck with components stuck in customs at the border.

 

Figures from the Federal Statistical Office show Junker's impressions: German exports to the United Kingdom fell by three percent in the first half of this year compared to the same period of the previous year. At the same time, exports to other EU countries increased by six percent. Trade in Europe is flourishing - business with Great Britain is stagnating.

And nothing happens that could provide confidence. Prime Minister May has not been able to point out a clear line in her speech in Florence; her cabinet is too divided.

If the UK leaves the European Economic Area and the Customs Union, exporters and importers have to complete extensive formalities, there will have to be border controls, trade agreements or not. That means additional costs and, depending on trade agreements, tariffs. A digital customs system, as the British imagine for the future, would be a novelty, nowhere in the world, has never been tested. In parliamentary committees, representatives of the ministries condescendingly admit to parliamentarians that they have no idea how such a system should be implemented at all.

 

I buy stuff from China on ebay, delivered, rather than expensive EU goods.

I don't have a trade agreement with China. IMO trade is trade, simples.