Quit your job in the west and move to super cheap Chiang Mai!

[Trujillo]

I don't believe that any significant influx of people was solely do to an article. Moreover, if a person comes here thinking it's US$1,000 a month cheap, and then discovers the reality of the money needed to just get a retirement visa (etc), they would realize right away they could not afford to retire here. 

I also wonder just how many people come here with US$12,000 a year in spending power (That's 420,000 baht at today's rate). That's not much for any worker coming from the West to be retiring with in a foreign country with no support or help from family. 

Am I to believe that a man comes here and finds out the real costs and says, "Well, that will blow my savings and I really will not have enough to survive except at a poverty, white rice level. But F-it, I'm already here and might as well do something utterly ridiculous." 

 

I don't buy it. 

 

By the way, yes, the bowl of noodles costs 3 baht each. 

 

I know we are not supposed to use Thai, but here is the menu. If you are lucky enough to find someone here who can translate for you, you can see what they have. 

These are the 3-baht dishes. The one at the upper right, however, is the Khao soi. 

 

That day my friend and I had 11 dishes between us. 

 

[johng]

how on earth can a food vendor make any sort of living/profit selling stuff at 3 baht ? surely the disposable chopsticks or washing up liquid + washeruperer would cost more than any profit made ??

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, johng said:

how on earth can a food vendor make any sort of living/profit selling stuff at 3 baht ? surely the disposable chopsticks or washing up liquid + washeruperer would cost more than any profit made ??

Maybe a loss leader and proven gimmick. Assuming most people order some pricier dishes with the cheap ones. Otherwise, yep, it's crazy.

[Trujillo]

No, you are both wrong. What you see in the photo is the FULL menu. There aren't some pricier dishes. The way they make money is that the rent is cheap, the furnishings are simple, open air and they have VOLUME sales. While the portions are small, they do add up in your stomach and the actual cost of the food must be nearly nothing. I was there at lunch and it was about 60 percent full and probably a capacity of about 70 to 80 people. 

[Bill97]

You can thank Kathleen Peddicord for the influx of all the greying victims of the 2008/2009 economic crash who believed her stories of "Live Like a King for $1000 a month in Chiang Mai" when she was editor of International Living magazine.  She conducted seminars and sold books about how to retire overseas to gullible people from North America and Chiang Mai has always been near the top of her list.

 

She has always left out any mention of what's required to obtain a long-term retirement visa -- like Thailand's 65,000 baht/month or 800,000 baht in the bank or Malaysia's even higher requirements.  At least, now there is some modest disclaimer in her writing about how she's not factoring the cost of medical insurance or health care into monthly budget and she does mention how Chiang Mai and Kota Kinabalu have excellent medical care and a few other places are lacking in medical care.  But, while she says you can consult with a doctor for $20 in CM, she doesn't discuss what more complex procedures cost and what happens if you can't pay.

 

The problem with Peddicord's writing, especially in 2008/2009, was that it attracted people to retire in Chiang Mai on $1000 per month when that's ALL they had, a modest pension income of $1000 per month, with no reserves, no back-up, no safety net.  Sadly, some of those folks are still here, getting older and finding it harder and harder to get by.

Nancy,

From your vast experience, how much monthly income and how much reserves do you think would be reasonable minimums for a 65 year old retiree in average health to have before moving here?

To simplify, exclude the booze budget.

[Trujillo]

 reasonable minimums = how long is a piece of rope?

 

What is reasonable for you, is probably pauperism for me, so it's a hard question to answer unless you fill in some blanks. 

[seancbk]

5 hours ago, possum1931 said:

"Only the PI and Thailand offer realistic long term Visa options".  What?? Thailand???? You are only allowed one year at a time here in Thailand, have 90 day reporting, or do dangerous in and out border runs unless you have permanent residency, and how many expats qualify for that?

The requirements for Permanent residency here are pretty basic.  Essentially anyone coming to work for a decent sized company and on a decent salary should be able to qualify.    Anyone coming here and investing into the country (setting up a decently large company) should also find it quite easy.  

It is more difficult for retirees, but then they have the advantage of being able to simply show they've got fund and stay indefinitely by extending each year (or until they die).   Doing 90 day reports is hardly a big deal.

You can apply for PR after only 3 years, as opposed to Hong Kong which requires 7 years of working and paying tax etc before you qualify.  Admittedly HK's PR is a lot better and more comprehensive compared to Thailand's.    But once you have Thai PR another 10 years and you can become properly naturalised.  

[heybruce]

3 hours ago, TheFishman1 said:

Belize has a no hassle retirement deal and so do many in that area I am not the President of the Expact community lol if A certain lady doesn't put her two cents in to almost ever post I would be surprised TIT

 

I haven't been in Central America for over a decade.  Are there still guards with shotguns outside every small bank branch, armed guards patrolling the streets on every block of neighborhoods that can afford security, bars on all windows and high walls topped with broken glass around all houses?

 

If so, these are the sort of things that might deter some retirees.

[NancyL]

3 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Nancy,

From your vast experience, how much monthly income and how much reserves do you think would be reasonable minimums for a 65 year old retiree in average health to have before moving here?

To simplify, exclude the booze budget.

 

The problem is that someone CAN live here on $1000 per month.    The rub is in not having reserves.  I've seen medical bills exceeding 4 million baht -- for a stroke and follow-up care.  You can't go back to your home country for treatment for something like that.  

[amexpat]

25 minutes ago, NancyL said:

 

The problem is that someone CAN live here on $1000 per month.    The rub is in not having reserves.  I've seen medical bills exceeding 4 million baht -- for a stroke and follow-up care.  You can't go back to your home country for treatment for something like that.  

 

Nancy, I do appreciate your continued contributions in spite of the uh, posters, who don't want to hear anything from an American woman.

 

About that 4 million baht med bill.  If people retired here to live on $1000 because they can't do it in the West, what's there to do? From what I have seen, IF someone of retirement age could find a policy that would cover such a bill the premiums would eat up that $1000 or more.  So?  They should have ample reserves? Go back to the country they can't afford?  I am reminded of the Texas bumper sticker:  

"If you don't have an oil well, get one". 

[finy]

I love when expats get all protective about a city they're merely living in.

 

It's so cute.

 

The article lists X cheap places. Chiang Mai happens to be one of those places. Don't be greedy and share this city with the world.

[masuk]

7 hours ago, TheFishman1 said:

Belize has a no hassle retirement deal and so do many in that area I am not the President of the Expact community lol if A certain lady doesn't put her two cents in to almost ever post I would be surprised TIT

and your point is???

[evenstevens]

its simply amazing

that not one poster has  considered exchange rates can change your booty, in retirement plans  here in Thailand,!!!   approx upwards of 30 % and more

can be lost in a matter of days, a good buffer number should be thrown in  to your final figures, to  cover such  currency  changes not in your favour,if they arise

its  a  Susan  Boyle  good  evening to all (what a lovely  sensational  voice )

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, amexpat said:

 

Nancy, I do appreciate your continued contributions in spite of the uh, posters, who don't want to hear anything from an American woman.

 

About that 4 million baht med bill.  If people retired here to live on $1000 because they can't do it in the West, what's there to do? From what I have seen, IF someone of retirement age could find a policy that would cover such a bill the premiums would eat up that $1000 or more.  So?  They should have ample reserves? Go back to the country they can't afford?  I am reminded of the Texas bumper sticker:  

"If you don't have an oil well, get one". 

 

Frankly, if someone doesn't have the ability to purchase medical insurance and/or sufficient reserves to cover emergencies they shouldn't come here.  There are safety nets available in our home countries that don't exist here.  Yes, I know people whine about what a miserable, cold, nasty existence they'll have in their home country trying to make ends meet on $1000/month, but in truth many came here for the easy lifestyle and easy women.  In our home countries, there are ways that people over age 65 can get discounts and freebies, esp. if they really do have an income of just $1000/month.

 

As president of CEC, I receive 5 or 6 emails each week from people considering retirement here.  Many ask about what's involved in getting a retirement visa.  CEC, has a canned standard answer and point people back to Thai gov't websites, but I point out the financial requirements.   When some people respond that they don't meet the financial requirements and ask what they can do, I tell them don't retire in Thailand.  It's not for you.  Maybe visit for a holiday, but be sure to purchase travel insurance before you come.

[Jingthing]

NancyL... if you are speaking about a medical safety net for Americans under 65 that will soon likely go away for a large part. I will start a thread soon on the home country forum about American medical cost refugees which is often about cost of prescription drugs. There is a change afoot that might or even probably will mean returning American expats under 65 will be screwed as far as preexisting conditions. I will provide details there.

 

To add, I realize you have a valid POV but I think it is influenced by your exposure the darker side of people being underfunded. That means you don't always see that moving to Thailand on a budget (assuming you can stay legal on visas, etc.) can sometimes be a life saver for some people, at least for significant periods of their lives, and also the raise in living standards than can be bought here is nothing to sneeze at either. Risky, yes. 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Jingthing

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Nancy,

From your vast experience, how much monthly income and how much reserves do you think would be reasonable minimums for a 65 year old retiree in average health to have before moving here?

To simplify, exclude the booze budget.

 

It is possible for an age 65-year-old to take out a Thai or international health insurance policy that covers residency in Thailand. Though it gets more difficult once you reach age 66 and beyond. There are just a few providers that will write that kind of coverage. Obviously, it gets more expensive as you get older, but there also are a few policies that if you take them out in time can be continued for life or until very old age. Typically those policies are going to exclude most pre-existing conditions, but can cover most everything else, or just inpatient, as desired.

 

I believe our TVF resident medical/health expert/mod generally recommends medical insurance for Thailand expats of no less than 3-5 million baht coverage PER INCIDENT/EPISODE.

 

Reason I mention it is, someone looking to retire in Thailand doesn't automatically have to assume that all their medical expenses will need to be covered out of pocket. Medical insurance is still an option here, even as you get older.

 

[NancyL]

Yes, medical insurance is definitely an option here.  And the fact that the resident expert on medical matters, i.e. Sheryl, recommends insurance of no less than 3-5 million baht coverage per incident per episode tells you that she's seen these high bills also, like I have.  

 

The thing about medical insurance is that you should apply as soon as you arrive, the younger the better and be sure you're with a company that will continue to insure you as you age.  Many Thai-based insurance companies stop coverage when you reach a certain age.  Don't wait until your health declines and you've had an incident or two to seek insurance.  Then, those "incidents" will be excluded as pre-exisiting conditions.  

 

Hubby and I retired here relatively young, still in our fifties and we made a point of getting over here just months before he turned sixty so he could obtain health insurance.  Thankfully, we've only had to use it once, but it's good to know we have it.  

 

Now, it's easier for people over age 60 to start a new policy.  The company we're with used to cut off new policies at age 60 for expats and now they cut off at age 70.

[Foozool]

Just as a reminder, you won't live too long if you eat those supper cheap foods everyday. Your health will be effected by those stuff that I don't call them food. You don't believe me!!! Check hospital's morgue.  

[NancyL]

1 hour ago, Jingthing said:

NancyL... if you are speaking about a medical safety net for Americans under 65 that will soon likely go away for a large part. I will start a thread soon on the home country forum about American medical cost refugees which is often about cost of prescription drugs. There is a change afoot that might or even probably will mean returning American expats under 65 will be screwed as far as preexisting conditions. I will provide details there.

Thanks, JT.  I'll be sure to take a look.  Actually, Hubby and I were part of the economic refugee influx in 2008, but more by design than happenstance.  We came to Thailand for a month in 2006 to evaluate early retirement because Hubby's arthritis was getting to the point that we could not continue to operate our greenhouse/nursery business in Michigan.  We'd looked at hiring staff to replace what he did and it didn't make economic sense.  The big cost drivers in our business were heat for our greenhouses, labor costs and the medical insurance costs (and deductables) for just the two of us.  (it wasn't a large business and I had a bad medical history)  Amazingly once here, I haven't been hospitalized.

 

We came here as "young" retirees, below age 65 and figured we'd return back to the U.S once we could get Medicare.  After 8 years in Chiang Mai and w-a-y too much involvement in the expat community, we're ready for a change.  We were about ready to go back to the U.S., but what with the recent election, I don't think so.  I'm not yet 65, either.  So maybe off for another expat adventure.

[amexpat]

51 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I believe our TVF resident medical/health expert/mod generally recommends medical insurance for Thailand expats of no less than 3-5 million baht coverage PER INCIDENT/EPISODE.

 

Approximately how much would such insurance cost for a 65 or 70 year old?  Approximately, ballpark, generally.

I know how long a string is. 

 

As for the PER INCIDENT/EPISODE, you usually don't have to worry about that as the policy will be canceled after the first big claim. 

 

[NancyL]

32 minutes ago, Foozool said:

Just as a reminder, you won't live too long if you eat those supper cheap foods everyday. Your health will be effected by those stuff that I don't call them food. You don't believe me!!! Check hospital's morgue.  

 

Yeah, I've known old expats who live on 35 baht street food.  Under-nourished, deficient in calcium, protein and B vitamins and overloaded in sodium.  These are the guys who trip on a hole in the sidewalk, fall and break their hip.  

[true blue]

1 hour ago, NancyL said:

 

Yeah, I've known old expats who live on 35 baht street food.  Under-nourished, deficient in calcium, protein and B vitamins and overloaded in sodium.  These are the guys who trip on a hole in the sidewalk, fall and break their hip.  

Bet u still take 1000bht of them.for CEC membership fee though

[little mary sunshine]

4 hours ago, amexpat said:

 

Approximately how much would such insurance cost for a 65 or 70 year old?  Approximately, ballpark, generally.

I know how long a string is. 

 

As for the PER INCIDENT/EPISODE, you usually don't have to worry about that as the policy will be canceled after the first big claim. 

 

 

 

At 68, still in excellent health, exercise and walk 5 miles daily, not

overweight, take no medications.....I was quoted a monthly premium

of £418/month..$US 471 approx.

[amexpat]

Thanks.  That's about what I found. Policies I saw mostly had limits amounting to 10-15 X  the annual premium. With limits, restrictions, and anything they can do to avoid paying, not a great bet. 

[amexpat]

4 hours ago, true blue said:

Bet u still take 1000bht of them.for CEC membership fee though

 

NancyL,  can you get a restraining order in LOS?  I mean in case you need one someday. 

[Airalee]

These "where to retire cheaply" articles so often leave out important information that they are actually doing a disservice to the readers.  Visa issues for European countries make it nearly impossible to stay long term unless you invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate etc. and most South American countries don't have tax treaties with the US so you will end up with double taxation on your income (interest, dividends, pensions etc)

 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, Airalee said:

These "where to retire cheaply" articles so often leave out important information that they are actually doing a disservice to the readers.  Visa issues for European countries make it nearly impossible to stay long term unless you invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in real estate etc. and most South American countries don't have tax treaties with the US so you will end up with double taxation on your income (interest, dividends, pensions etc)

 

That's very true. You need to followup with your own research but honestly most people reading such articles do so just for entertainment and indulging in a fantasy pipe dream. Bottom line, Thailand remains one of the easiest "retirement" visas in the world for a relatively "cheap" country that you'd actually want to live in.

[NancyL]

8 hours ago, amexpat said:

 

Approximately how much would such insurance cost for a 65 or 70 year old?  Approximately, ballpark, generally.

I know how long a string is. 

 

As for the PER INCIDENT/EPISODE, you usually don't have to worry about that as the policy will be canceled after the first big claim. 

 

 

No, reputable international insurance companies don't cancel after the first big claim.  This is a myth and an excuse not to purchase insurance.

 

You're looking at something along the lines of 50,000 baht/year for a medical insurance policy that covers in-patient care (no outpatient) with a per incident deductible of $2000 for someone in their late 60s.  The trick in keeping insurance affordable is to have a high deductible.  We combine our medical insurance with a separate personal accident insurance plan.  These plans have low maximum payouts, but no deductible.  You can get a PA plan for less than 10,000 baht/year.  The idea is that in many events, the reason for hospitalization is an accident, so the PA insurance will cover the deductible of the more comprehensive medical insurance.

[Bill97]

 
The problem is that someone CAN live here on $1000 per month.    The rub is in not having reserves.  I've seen medical bills exceeding 4 million baht -- for a stroke and follow-up care.  You can't go back to your home country for treatment for something like that.  

So if no medical insurance for one reason or another, how much reserves do you suggest?

Thanks.

[amexpat]

"No, reputable international insurance companies don't cancel after the first big claim.  This is a myth and an excuse not to purchase insurance."

 

Well, there sure are a lot of dis-reputable companies - in the USA, too.  Some just refuse to renew rather than cancel.

 

50,000 baht/year has a payout of what, 500,000 baht?  I'll look some more but I'm not seeing policies with deductibles here. 

And what happens when that person in the very late 60s (69) has a birthday?

I agree about the PA.