Did we make them this bitter?

[Kwasaki]

19 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

I do see where you are coming from, but Thaivisa members come on and give their opinions, you can agree or disagree, and if someone does some "Thai bashing", they are only giving their opinion, just as long as they are being constructive, and not being rude about it.

Personally, I think that Thais are selfish, ie riding their motorbikes on the pavements, having dreadful road statistics through their low mentality, and will say so, on the other hand,  I think they are mostly honest, decent, non confrontational and helpful, so I say that also.

If I cannot give my opinion, without upsetting anyone, whether positive or negative, there is no point in me being a member here, apart from asking for help and advice, which I have had time and time again.

I'm really upset now.  

[NoshowJones]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

I don't know what it is you don't agree with, that I know of farangs who live as I say they do?

 

And I don't really think that Mae Rim is a tourist area, not by any stretch!

Fair enough, but your avatar says you come from Chaing Mai, and I always thought of it as a tourist location, I have never heard of Mae Rim.

[Chip Allen]

8 hours ago, kannot said:

you over analyse it, its GREED by the Thais nothing more................ no need to tell me what I can and cant answer thanks

I see it in ALL areas, not just tourist areas, Greed is a Thai personality trait. Suck the life out of the farang and then deport him. Not so different from Trump mentality in the USA. Entitled nationalism is default mode here.

[hawker9000]

2 hours ago, Fore Man said:

A brief tale that is apropos here...

I traveled to Thailand over 50 times in a 7-year period as a defense businessman based out of California back in the 1990s and was relocated here by my corporation in 2004 along with my native Thai wife.  On one of my earliest business trips. I was accompanied by a team member,  a young and bright electrical engineer who was also quite a cocksure, strutting fellow but he performed well enough back in our California plant.  I needed him to spend a month here as our products were undergoing evaluation by the RTA and he was our most knowledgeable subject matter expert on the finer aspects of our system.  But the longer he stayed here (it was in Lopburi), the more he began to demonstrate his ugly side.  One morning at breakfast in our hotel, he gave the waitress a hard time because he had ordered pancakes off the menu and was told shortly afterwards that the cooks weren't sure how to make them...could he perhaps place an different order?  His retort? "No! I Pancakes are listed on the menu and I want them!".  The answer came back shortly that they could try to satisfy his order, but it would take about a half-hour.  My engineer almost snapped off the head of our waitress and the restaurant manager, who had come to explain the problem.  The fact was that nobody had ever ordered pancakes there and the cooks had long forgotten how to make them. 

I looked at him across the table...and put it to him: "What's wrong with you, Tom?  Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed today or what?"

He replied that he was just fed up with Thailand and everything in it...the conditions were lousy, the "greasy and spicy" food was not suitable for his palate and that he just hated being stuck in what he termed "a Third World hellhole".  Then he explained that he was raised in a blue-blooded Bostonian family, graduated from our elite West Point military academy and didn't deserve to be subjected to these "awful conditions"....which to be honest, weren't all that bad.  I've certainly seen far worse, as in wartime Vietnam.  His biggest mistake came when he then pronounced "I'm better than these people!"

To which I remarked "Oh, you had the good luck to choose your parents did you? The people you are denigrating here in Thailand never had such luck...they were borne here and grew up in very different conditions than you did as a member of a privileged family in the US."

 

He railed against other petty things that irritated him, such as complaining that I had a habit of buying our driver a cold beverage or vitamin drink at gas stops out on the road.  His plaint?  "He earns a salary, let him buy his own drinks!"  I replied that the man made a measly 300 Baht a day, and was raising a large family with five children.  Besides, today, the chap was my driver and I was the VIP; but it could be anyone's guess that in another decade or so, the situation might well be reversed and he could very well become the VIP (this episode occurred before the economic crisis hit the Kingdom in 1997).  Of course he scoffed at that idea. 

I made up my mind on the spur of the moment and told him that that day would be his very last in Thailand, because I was ordering him back home....that we didn't need Americans of his ilk ruining it for the rest of us in Thailand.  He duly flew out from Don Mueang the very next morning and I later learned that he lasted another 6 weeks on the job back home before being cashiered out.  Nobody there wanted to deal with a sanctimonious hothead, no matter how smart they might be.

The point of relating this story is that there will always be fellow citizens among us who turn absolutely ugly when placed in less than perfect conditions overseas and forced to adapt to a vastly different culture.  Why such men (and women occasionally) stay here for the long term totally escapes me...they are obviously unhappy with far more than Thailand and its people, but we see them out in the streets and in the markets and here on the Forum bitching and moaning; whining and insulting all manner of things Thai as well as acting rudely to their fellow expatriates. 

We'd all be far better off with out these uncultured, often surly and/or drunken clowns.   All they do is give the rest of us a bad rap.  Good riddance.

 

I'd love to hear the other side of this story...

 

[Kwasaki]

15 minutes ago, Chip Allen said:

I see it in ALL areas, not just tourist areas, Greed is a Thai personality trait. Suck the life out of the farang and then deport him. Not so different from Trump mentality in the USA. Entitled nationalism is default mode here.

Jeezes what on earth you 2 on about happens in all countries.

[Rc2702]

My parents want to visit next year and without any type of discussion with myself they proposed Phuket or Pattaya as a good spot for the family to meet up.

 

No offence to the residents there but I just don't fancy those destinations 1 bit. I understand my parents mindset, they are after the thai version of benidorm I suspect. Do they show coronation st in pattaya?

 

 

[jak2002003]

1 hour ago, dazzz said:

Sorry but the op sounds like a sanctimonious get . I live off the beaten path and have never been to pattaya or phuket or many tourist area but i still get ripped off . He knows absolutely nothing about thailand .
 A couple of examples from outside udon thani .  Small can of beer chang , phen , 90 baht . real price 35 baht , nongkhai road 70 baht same beer . Asked the price of  a hat nong khai market 300 baht , my wife asked 5 minutes later 150 baht . In a shop landmark udon thani . Asked how much for phone screen cover  . Girls says 300 baht , asked a boy in the same shop he said 150 baht . When i asked the girl why she told me 300 she said you are farang , you have lots money.
 Bought a sheet of ply a few weeks ago with my wife 450 baht , went back alone this week 650 baht . I told him the correct price and i paid 450 baht
 Its built into thai culture and is everywhere . Perhaps  he is to ignorant to know he is paying a higher price .
 I dont get ripped off as i have been here 10 years and know the prices

Wow.. you sure do have a lot of bad luck there.  You must be doing something wrong.  Maybe you look like you are super rich or something? 

 

I have never had this happen.  I have been here more than 10 years full time. 

 

 

 

 

[JSixpack]

2 hours ago, connda said:

I think it's more along the lines that "birds of a feather flock together."  Those who wish to work in the tourist trade are composed of people who are fair business oriented Thais, and then there are those who are varying degrees of dishonest, right down to actual criminals.  All have the same goal: to enrich themselves off of the tourist trade.  So in major tourist venues you're gonna see it all.  That includes both rude, arrogant farangs and rude, disrespectful Thais on one end of the spectrum, and pleasant, curious farang and accommodating, friendly Thais on the other.  You simply can't lump everyone into a category - it just isn't that way.

Once you step away from the fray and get away from where tourist gather, you begin to get a taste of the regular Thai culture and normal, everyday Thai people.  Especially in rural Thailand where I and a few other farang choose to live you'll find that people are down-to-earth and are a generally laid-back and fun-loving group of people who aren't out to harvest your money. Sure, there is a Thai here and there who has the idea in their heads that all farang are rich and will attempt to whittle a few more baht out of you during a transaction, but it's up to you to get to know your vendors and your neighbors and transact with those who treat you fairly.  Those who remain aloof and detach may get gouged; those who assimilate and engage the local will be able to tell who is treating them fairly and who is not, and then you act accordingly.  To give you an example, I routinely buy a latte from a coffee vendor in Big C and I always tip.  I use to get a half a cup of latte and a half a cup of form.  Now I always get an almost full cup of latte with a little form -- and a big smile for the gals behind the counter.  And we chat while my latte is made - in Thai.  Sometimes it just pays to be generous! 

So good job finding your way off the beaten path -- enjoy the real Thailand!

 

Rational, well-considered post.

 

I would add, however, that the tourist-shocked Thais, such as those in Pattaya where I've lived for many years, usually have their good side as well. Our whinging farangs never see it so they don't believe it exists. But the key to unlocking it is to show that you aren't one of the idiots they encounter constantly. That is, greet them with a relaxed, confident, smiling Sawatdee khrap! pronounced correctly.  Then speak some Thai with them, act a bit humble (showing you're not too direct and aggressive), and demonstrate good Thai manners--not getting in the least flustered during any bargaining over prices or showing any anger, frustration, or annoyance about anything. (Bargaining can be pretty normal everywhere in Thailand, I'd say.) Be polite at all times, throwing in plenty of khrab's (or ka's of course). Joke around if possible. Doing this, after I learned the technique, I really never have an unpleasant interaction w/ the Thais on or off the front line in Pattaya of all places. You can even charm a gruff motorbike taxi driver by joking around a bit, such as about the crazy driving by the other drivers. No, this isn't being passive. It's taking control of the situation to your advantage to maximize the chance that you'll get what you want, whether it's better service or a lower price.

 

Tourists can't do this; our whingers, many of them bigots anyway, can't and so will indignantly argue they shouldn't have to and prefer to make war. Well, maybe they shouldn't, but then again they aren't in the shoes of the vendors dealing with so many idiots daily. Thais have many sources from which to receive a negative impression about farangs.

 

Different culture, no question. Given that it is what it is and ain't gon' change, I prefer to make my life a lot easier and save money as well.

Edited February 2, 2017 by JSixpack

[timewilltell]

2 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

I also see this a lot.  Even some farangs living out in the sticks (where I live) just depend on their Thai wife for everything.  They build a big expensive house, tall walls and huge gate.  Then live in their own little bubble of farang land inside.  Air con on every day and night, at con on in their new truck to go to the air con filled farang supermarkets (as they don't like Thai food and want to pay crazy prices or imported farang food).  

 

When ever they go out they go with their wife to hold their hand.... they bark orders at her to do this and that, say this and that to other Thai people, complain about things.  They have never seen the real Thailand.  They live in their shell, convincing themselves every Thai person is out to con, steal and lie to them.  They don't trust anyone or have any real friends. They use their money like a bribe to control people and get what they want. 

 

After a few years they become so bitter and argumentative, have so little going on in their life they get obsessed about tiny unimportant trivial matters... and then start to take out their frustrations on their own farang friends.... in the end ending up with no friends and miserable on their own.  What a life!!! 

And then there are many who are cheated by most they meet from every walk of life from employees to police, shop assistants to those in the justice system, lawyers to mothers of their children for 9 years and unsurprisingly have learnt accordingly not to trust any of them really even though most are good people. You only need one bad egg to dump you into the snake pit here and it is easy to happen. As for tourist areas, most of the criminal and chancers end up there along with a fair proportion of police and justice officials who are all there to make money one way or anothet off the rich foreigners as they see it. Elsewhere is undoubtedly different. Sometimes hard to keep perspective if you are dumped with problems because Thais are great at milking every cent from a person in trouble and seem to revel in it often

Edited February 2, 2017 by timewilltell

[welovethailand]

I've heard enough...even on another website UDMap, the winers are the ones who defend their stupidity all the time..

Common sense gets kicked out the window.  Tourism is created to make money and the many involved turn out to be the victims, a lot of the time.

Watch this video and learn a different perspective..

Tourism and the Truth Thailand

 

[nemrut]

Every popular tourist destination around the world attracts scammers and opportunists looking to make money off tourists and Thailand is no different.

 

That being said, the main difference with Thailand vs other popular destinations like Hong Kong or Tokyo is the greater purchasing power for many westerners in the former.   It tends to attract the budget conscious and often those struggling to make ends meet in their home country.  

 

Suddenly farang come to Thailand and feel they can live much better lives which often leads to sense of entitlement and superiority over the local population.

 

Even those who come without financial constraints often share this master/servant attitude where anyone who is non-white, brown skinned is less than and deserves to be treated that way.

 

Obviously the Thais pickup on this despite their Buddhist upbringing, so naturally it stirs up resentment and hostility.

 

Forums like TV where Thai bashing occurs regularly and unabated dont help Farang/Thai relations either.  Many Thais frequent these forums as well and share the criticism and offensive behavior they often read here with other Thais.

 

Finally, imo the main source of conflict between Thais and farang along with other Asian cultures is just difference in upbringing and values.  

 

Most farangs in Thailand come from western countries that value independence and self-centeredness as being most important, whereas in Thai and other Asian countries it's more about the group, family, and other affiliations.  

 

That's why 'face' is so important in Asian cultures and not simply attributed to ego as many westerners falsely assume.

Edited February 2, 2017 by nemrut
typo

[Suradit69]

10 hours ago, kannot said:

you over analyse it, its GREED by the Thais nothing more................ no need to tell me what I can and cant answer thanks

Quite accustomed to people telling you to be quiet, are you?

 

12 hours ago, wump said:

Did the arrogant, demanding, drunk, shouting, disrespectful and downright rude way SOME tourists behave change the mentality of the people

A read through any day's posting here at TV will show it's not just the tourists, but quite a few of the farang residents who share those traits. And yes, to assume that anyone who is exposed to all these charmers on a regular basis would not be affected by it makes no sense. 

 

Actually I think most Thais are amazingly resilient despite all that. Hardly surprising that someone like kannot would only find that others respond to him in kind.

[DKNY77]

5 hours ago, Kerryd said:

It's a common trait that happens all over the world in places that are dependent on "outsiders" for their living. It is not something peculiar to Thais or Thailand, or the tourists that visit here.

 

I've seen the same reactions from "the locals" in towns that were dependent on the military for their existence. Without the large military base and regular influx of new recruits, many of the local businesses would go bankrupt (and many of the local lasses would go unwed). Despite needed the cash the military was spending in their shops, the locals disliked, even despised them. Why ? They viewed the military as "visitors" to their  home and saw them as (often) drunken louts splashing money around like it grew on trees. (Sound familiar ?)

 

Dubai is another place dependent on tourism, as they don't have any oil wealth themselves oddly enough. Something like 90% of the workforce in Dubai are foreigners, mostly from poor countries (India, Philippines, Africa and China). The actual "locals" see tourists as a necessary evil that has to be tolerated (especially the non-Arab tourists). The "workers" often see them as snobby, rich elites flaunting their wealth (and many of the tourists act exactly like that). 

In Egypt the touts around the various attractions were not above trying to scam tourists ("mister mister - want see naked lady statue ? tip 5 pounds ? look here !) (No, I didn't fall for that. I saw them trying to suck other tourists in and noticed the statues on my own as I was zipping around the different sites.)

Didn't fall for the "oh the camel is sick and you have to pay for another one to bring you back" scam either. Or the "I'm going to try and get in front of you while you are taking a picture and then expect a tip for me posing for you" scam. For the most part though, Egypt wasn't too bad once you were away from the touristy areas (kind of like the OP mentions about Thailand) but I wasn't there long enough to get a decent feel for the place.

 

Even in a place like Canada, tourists are often viewed in less than favourable terms, though the locals aren't as likely to rip them off (knowing that if they tried there is a very good chance they'd be caught and prosecuted by cops/judges that wouldn't have any sympathy for them). Talk to the locals in a place like Vancouver (where I lived for 6 years) and the attitudes were often the same as locals in those other places. The more "foreign" the tourist, the worse the attitude. I grew up in a tiny little village in a scenic locale that experienced a lot of visitors/tourists in the summer months. A couple local businesses made some money but almost everyone saw the visitors as "outsiders" who came, partied, trashed the place and then left, leaving the locals to clean up the mess.

 

No different here than in pretty much every other place in the world.

 

 

CANADIANS themselves are an ignorant no class rude arrogant obnoxious opinionated bunch ahols..esp the french canadians

[DKNY77]

ironically the OP complains about whinging...yet he comes here to do the very same thing

[citzofwrld]

Big cities, big money always attract the worst people, locals and tourists. Was that rude after dinner remark made by a American? Many, tend to be arrogant, snippy and demanding. Its the way we were brought up, show'em whose the boss, take no prisoners society. I witness the same from a American, from a church group. He was barking orders at this young Thai who just stood there taking it. Had it continued longer, I would have stepped in. I was nearing my breaking point of no return. Not good for that fellow American.

[JWNY]

Personally, I am a sincere believer of "kindness begets kindness". There will always be black sheep whether tourists or on the local side.

 

I was working in McDonald's a long time ago...and you get to see all kinds of characters. Some of them just yearn attention, or had  a bad day. These are not excuses, but inevitable for many in service line. The customer is not always right, but the customer is the customer. 

 

Sometimes, we just need to have a positive attitude. There will always be these type of people - no point brooding over it. 

 

Life is unfair - how we deal with it is important

 

 

[tartempion]

CANADIANS themselves are an ignorant no class rude arrogant obnoxious opinionated bunch ahols..esp the french canadians

What a load of crap.
Signed: a Québécois.

[mikecha]

i live   also in Provence North Thailand far from Chang Mai  and all the realy short fused  guys  from around the world that seem to congragete .

we see  a lot of foreigners giving the girls at 7/11 or big c  or makro a hard time 1 guy burnt his fuse cos he wanted just 1 bottle at makro but they seel by 6 bottles was at the checkout going balistic   i felt ashamde  and went and had another look in the store to let him go

 

 

we checked out 10 minuits later at the same pay desk this girl could speak good english but was pretty mad at foreigners that day 

told us that it is a wholesaler    whitch Makro is       when i gave her my card then she changed to all ok green lights  lucky me

 

things here is if polite then polite back   check price +_  before buy  or get a thai to buy for you   all our house materials baught by a thai with receipt never a problem

 

[chiang mai]

Sitting in Fuji having lunch today with two middle aged Brits nearby complaining loudly about how cold it was in the restaurant, demanding to see the manager, wanting the heat turned up and looking around for support (not forthcoming). The manageress was all smiles and polite and absorbed their rants, walking away and past our table she muttered to nobody in particular how stupid farangs are! Five minutes later the couple leave and also walk by our table so we see them full length for the first time - both wearing swim suit bottoms and shirts, dressed for the beach at Fuji in Promenada. I was tempted to wade in on the Thai side but couldn't be bothered.

[mikecha]

light the fuse

[thaiguzzi]

Yep. Welcome to the Real Thailand...

Great innit.

 

[Fookhaht]

Ever been to Kings Cross, The Pyramids of Gaza, Taj Mahal.  Same the world over. Any tourist place attracts its fair share of scumbags and Mafia types and red light districts up the anti.  You want a nice holiday stay clear of the tourist mecas.

I totally agree.

Actually, the OP is Thai-bashing by default to imply that this distressing dichotomy only exists in Thailand.

No real revelation in this thread, folks. Move along now.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Phatbeets]

I really believe Thailand attracts the biggest scumbag lowlife tourists from every single nation

Considering that I think the Thais are pretty cool dealing with those.

 

Saw this Netflix doc recently "Josef Fritzl: Story of a Monster"

Guess where he liked to make holiday?

 

the obvious human greed, the corruption and mafia + History (Vietnam war) all had their fair contribution.

Cosign avoiding the main tourist spots like the plague

 

[georgemandm]

18 hours ago, jak2002003 said:

I also see this a lot.  Even some farangs living out in the sticks (where I live) just depend on their Thai wife for everything.  They build a big expensive house, tall walls and huge gate.  Then live in their own little bubble of farang land inside.  Air con on every day and night, at con on in their new truck to go to the air con filled farang supermarkets (as they don't like Thai food and want to pay crazy prices or imported farang food).  

 

When ever they go out they go with their wife to hold their hand.... they bark orders at her to do this and that, say this and that to other Thai people, complain about things.  They have never seen the real Thailand.  They live in their shell, convincing themselves every Thai person is out to con, steal and lie to them.  They don't trust anyone or have any real friends. They use their money like a bribe to control people and get what they want. 

 

After a few years they become so bitter and argumentative, have so little going on in their life they get obsessed about tiny unimportant trivial matters... and then start to take out their frustrations on their own farang friends.... in the end ending up with no friends and miserable on their own.  What a life!!! 

Big words , some of it is very true, but like a thai would say up to them .

not understand why western man care about what westerners do in thailand, if they get rep off or live in their big homes up to them .

what you should thinks is his life let him do as he likes .

you seem to be  jealous in your  statement , his life , not your life , let him do what he wants .

you think Thais don't do the same as him looking down on Thais yes they do , that is life .

all over the world it is the same .

 

[jak2002003]

2 hours ago, georgemandm said:

Big words , some of it is very true, but like a thai would say up to them .

not understand why western man care about what westerners do in thailand, if they get rep off or live in their big homes up to them .

what you should thinks is his life let him do as he likes .

you seem to be  jealous in your  statement , his life , not your life , let him do what he wants .

you think Thais don't do the same as him looking down on Thais yes they do , that is life .

all over the world it is the same .

 

Hi.  No I don't really care about what they do..... I was making an observation about how some farangs who come to live here end up lonely, miserable and have few if any real friends.  They get bitter and start to hate other people and blame them for their own problems... and they get ripped off all the time by people because of their bad attitude, stupidity and them acting super rich like money is no matter to them.

 

I wrote this in response to a question about why some farangs think Thai people are so bitter against them... when in fact this is just their experience and not true about Thai people and Farang people in general.

 

I am in no way jealous about such a situation.  In fact, it seems like hell to me!  I am very happy living here and have great Thai friends... many more than Farang friends... and I find most Thai people very kind, generous, and sincere..... unlike some other farangs I have met here.

 

I think you misunderstood my post.  Hope I made it more clear.

[georgemandm]

1 hour ago, jak2002003 said:

Hi.  No I don't really care about what they do..... I was making an observation about how some farangs who come to live here end up lonely, miserable and have few if any real friends.  They get bitter and start to hate other people and blame them for their own problems... and they get ripped off all the time by people because of their bad attitude, stupidity and them acting super rich like money is no matter to them.

 

I wrote this in response to a question about why some farangs think Thai people are so bitter against them... when in fact this is just their experience and not true about Thai people and Farang people in general.

 

I am in no way jealous about such a situation.  In fact, it seems like hell to me!  I am very happy living here and have great Thai friends... many more than Farang friends... and I find most Thai people very kind, generous, and sincere..... unlike some other farangs I have met here.

 

I think you misunderstood my post.  Hope I made it more clear.

Ok I do agree with you , but I never care about the ones who get rip off up to them , there is lots of  information on the internet now so most western man should not get rip off .

like I say up to them .

i understand what the  topic was about but most of that s??? , He was saying  happens in the tourist areas not in the thai towns .

i to have thai people I know very well and their are very  respectful people , but you do get some of them trying to rip us western off and that dose get me up set a little.

but now I make sure I send my thai partner in to  negotiate for me , but we as  foreigners in a foreign country should not have to do that s??? .

i am not trying to run you down I am just saying forget about the 90 % of stupid man who think with there little head .

 

[chiang mai]

5 hours ago, Phatbeets said:

I really believe Thailand attracts the biggest scumbag lowlife tourists from every single nation

Considering that I think the Thais are pretty cool dealing with those.

 

Saw this Netflix doc recently "Josef Fritzl: Story of a Monster"

Guess where he liked to make holiday?

 

the obvious human greed, the corruption and mafia + History (Vietnam war) all had their fair contribution.

Cosign avoiding the main tourist spots like the plague

 

"I really believe Thailand attracts the biggest scumbag lowlife tourists from every single nation".

 

Tell us your logic of how you arrive at that conclusion?

 

Then please tell us how long you have spent in Thailand and where.

[Kwasaki]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

"I really believe Thailand attracts the biggest scumbag lowlife tourists from every single nation".

 

Tell us your logic of how you arrive at that conclusion?

 

Then please tell us how long you have spent in Thailand and where.

Yeah you have to laugh l live in a village tourist place that has people coming from many world countries and haven't seen anyone walking around with violin case yet. 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Kwasaki said:

Yeah you have to laugh l live in a village tourist place that has people coming from many world countries and haven't seen anyone walking around with violin case yet. 

 

I'm betting the answer will be, 3 months, Pattaya.

[Kwasaki]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm betting the answer will be, 3 months, Pattaya.

Yep could well be,  wearing his elephant pants.