Closing condo purchase without lawyer at land office

[Mysterion]

Hi all,

 

My farang friend intends to buy a foreign freehold re-sale condo.

 

He told me that he will complete the purchase personally without his own lawyer at the land office. He beleives the process is simple and does not require the expense of hiring his own lawyer. He says the chanote at the land office would show any title problems(mortgages/liens) before he hands over final payment.

 

The sellers lawyer told him he just needs to sign the agreement and pay the sellers lawyer at the land office and then the land office will simultaneously put the new farang owner name on the two chanote copies(one held with new owner and one held at land office). The seller lawyer will also the give the buyer a condo mgt letter stating that all the condo mgt fees are paid up to date.

 

At that point the deal is apparently closed and my farang friend will be the legal registered owner of the condo.

 

Does this process sound correct to the folks on tv? Any additonal risks or things for my buddy to consider?

 

 

Cheers.

 

[blackcab]

I just typed this on another thread:

 

I would add that if you are dealing with the solicitor/agent of a third party then give them a crossed cashier's cheque payable to the owner, with the words "or bearer" crossed out. Do not give them cash.

[Mysterion]

Good points.

 

Is there any ofher risks, or things he shoukd ask the land department?

 

Why bother paying for a lawyer unless there are some risks?

[Peterw42]

There are all sorts of checks and balances that happen at the land office, and the sale wont proceed unless the property is unencumbered, no mortgage, caveats etc. Also proof that condo fees up to date, within foreign quota etc. The land office will advise the buyer when to pay the seller, sale has gone through.

In most instances, the agent (the person getting a commission) will help both parties at the land office, as its in their interest for the sale to be finalized.

[blackcab]

4 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Good points.

 

Is there any ofher risks, or things he shoukd ask the land department?

 

Why bother paying for a lawyer unless there are some risks?

 

One risk is bait and switch. Make sure the unit you want to buy is the unit you actually buy.

 

Some people view one unit but at the land office the seller hands in the chanote for a different unit.

 

It's your responsibility to check what you are buying - after all, how could the land office know?

[Mysterion]

Thanks guys.

 

The good advice is appreciated.

[happylarry]

Unless your farang friend can speak very good fluent Thai then he should not even consider doing this himself without having an accomplished interpreter at his side, whether he uses a lawyer or not. And I don't mean his wife or partner either but an interpreter who does not stand to benefit in any way except for their wage for the day of course. Personally I wouldn't risk it without my own lawyer as well because there are many underhand tricks go on at the land offices if tea is offered.

i am just offering this as serious advice not as a marketing ploy, but, as it happens my wife is a court interpreter if he does need one and can't find one locally.

HL

[dotpoom]

Bought and sold a fair few properties here in Thailand....never had the need to go to a lawyer.

[happylarry]

51 minutes ago, dotpoom said:

Bought and sold a fair few properties here in Thailand....never had the need to go to a lawyer.

If that's aimed at me I never said there was a need, I said personally I wouldn't....lol

If the day comes that you do get shafted you may regret not paying a bit extra but meanwhile well done to you.

HL

[phantomfiddler]

Done it myself a couple of times, but only in cases where I trusted the other party completely. Best to pay a lawyer 10,000 Bht, sign the P.O.A. document, and head for a bar and enjoy yourself :)

[zorro1]

I gave power of attorney to the condo juristic to complete specific tasks.

No need to throw money at a lawyer

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

[topt]

OP presume your friend has also agreed the disposition of the various taxes that need to be paid to the land department by someone?

[hdkane]

lawyers are so cheap here, why would you not engage an attorney simply for the assurance that all with proceed without any problems?  you can find an attorney for 10,000 baht...if you forget a document it will cost you at least 500 baht to go get the paper and return...you are going to spend a few million baht, but don't want to spend 10,000 just to ensure all goes smoothly and quickly?  I used to do these things myself, because i wanted to know how to do it...but then i learned all the different ways Thais can cheat you, and i realized a few thousand baht are a worthwhile investment for an advocate and someone to double check...

 

for me, these are the kind of niggling problems i feel comfortable leaving to people who are fluent in Thai...

[scorecard]

On 2/15/2017 at 4:14 AM, blackcab said:

I just typed this on another thread:

 

I would add that if you are dealing with the solicitor/agent of a third party then give them a crossed cashier's cheque payable to the owner, with the words "or bearer" crossed out. Do not give them cash.

 

And be sure to have a photocopy or smartphone photo of the back and front of the cheque, smartphone maybe better because it gives date and time when the photos were taken.  

[scorecard]

19 minutes ago, hdkane said:

lawyers are so cheap here, why would you not engage an attorney simply for the assurance that all with proceed without any problems?  you can find an attorney for 10,000 baht...if you forget a document it will cost you at least 500 baht to go get the paper and return...you are going to spend a few million baht, but don't want to spend 10,000 just to ensure all goes smoothly and quickly?  I used to do these things myself, because i wanted to know how to do it...but then i learned all the different ways Thais can cheat you, and i realized a few thousand baht are a worthwhile investment for an advocate and someone to double check...

 

for me, these are the kind of niggling problems i feel comfortable leaving to people who are fluent in Thai...

 

Lawyer also can be helpful (but not needed by experienced folks) to ensure names on electricity, water, telephone etc., accounts are quickly changed and old bills settled.

Edited February 16, 2017 by scorecard

[zorro1]

lawyers are so cheap here, why would you not engage an attorney simply for the assurance that all with proceed without any problems?  you can find an attorney for 10,000 baht...if you forget a document it will cost you at least 500 baht to go get the paper and return...you are going to spend a few million baht, but don't want to spend 10,000 just to ensure all goes smoothly and quickly?  I used to do these things myself, because i wanted to know how to do it...but then i learned all the different ways Thais can cheat you, and i realized a few thousand baht are a worthwhile investment for an advocate and someone to double check...

 

for me, these are the kind of niggling problems i feel comfortable leaving to people who are fluent in Thai...

Over the years met many condo owners and read a thousand forum posts and never encountered a buyer being cheated out of a condo purchase unless it was a failed development but then there was no condo either.

One of the advantages here is you don't need a lawyer unlike back in the West where they take a huge amount.

Westerners will always find new ways to rip up money here and it's no wonder they are seen as walking ATM "s

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

[blackcab]

2 hours ago, zorro1 said:

Over the years met many condo owners and read a thousand forum posts and never encountered a buyer being cheated out of a condo purchase unless it was a failed development but then there was no condo either.

One of the advantages here is you don't need a lawyer unlike back in the West where they take a huge amount.

Westerners will always find new ways to rip up money here and it's no wonder they are seen as walking ATM "s

Sent from my Redmi Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

I personally know people that have been ripped off, but not many. One was a Thai person who was ripped off by another Thai person. The second and third were foreigners who were ripped off by their Thai solicitors.

[RDavis]

With or without a lawyer, it is damned stupid. Don't buy!

[jippytum]

When I purchased a foreign owned condo the seller wanted to dispense with a lawyer and i wanted to engage one .We shared an independent lawyer and i paid by bankers cheque the divided cost was 10,000 baht and everything done in the lawyers office.Worth the money for peace of mind and no hassle waiting hours at the land office.

[zorro1]

With or without a lawyer, it is damned stupid. Don't buy!

Yep met quite a few like your self in Pattaya the last few months, nearly all living on the dark side and renting similar to short time rooms at 4k a month.. Flucking sad.

For those that brag about owning houses OS and living off the rent then you are all screwed.. Britain is stuffed your rent money is becoming worthless same with Australia and the rest of Europe. Canadian currency is screwed as well

The yanks suffered the worst though. The sub prime crises has smashed resale by Upto 90%.... But let's not invest in Thailand..Bahaha!

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[MikeN]

On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2017 at 8:47 AM, Peterw42 said:

There are all sorts of checks and balances that happen at the land office, and the sale wont proceed unless the property is unencumbered, no mortgage, caveats etc. Also proof that condo fees up to date, within foreign quota etc. The land office will advise the buyer when to pay the seller, sale has gone through.

In most instances, the agent (the person getting a commission) will help both parties at the land office, as its in their interest for the sale to be finalized.

You mean "there all sorts things that happen at the land office', don't you ?.... like officials' friends and family acquiring National park land, land reserved for farming, property belonging to other people, etc etc. Thailand is NOT the hub for checks and balances ! A condo is probably safer than other sorts of property but I would be hiring a lawyer if it was me.

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, MikeN said:

You mean "there all sorts things that happen at the land office', don't you ?.... like officials' friends and family acquiring National park land, land reserved for farming, property belonging to other people, etc etc. Thailand is NOT the hub for checks and balances ! A condo is probably safer than other sorts of property but I would be hiring a lawyer if it was me.

 

I'll speak about my experience. I've been in various land offices and conducted quite a few sales and purchases of condos, houses, commercial property and land. The sale prices were between a few million and a few hundred million baht.

 

On every occasion I found the land office staff to be very polite and extremely scrupulous at their job. From time to time there was a wait, but that was because the office was extremely busy.

 

The only problem I have encountered was one time a buyer's name was slightly misspelled on the chanote (they had typed an อิ instead of an อี. When this was pointed out, the mistake was corrected immediately.

 

I know there is corruption at land offices, but my suggestion would be that it is carried out by some senior staff who have the authority to issue new deeds for government land, etc.

 

The staff you interact with first are the lowest rung if the ladder, and as such the least able to pull off a scam. Don't forget that the deeds are checked and signed by three different people.

 

On the other hand a friend of mine who has been in Thailand over 20 years was scammed by their solicitors. They had worked with their solicitor for years, and on this one occasion my friend was overseas and couldn't make it to the land office. They wired the money to their solicitor, who withdrew the full amount in cash and disappeared.

[Henryford]

Can your friend read thai? How does he know what's on the chanute. Is the owner/seller the one he is paying.

[lkn]

On 2/15/2017 at 9:02 AM, blackcab said:

One risk is bait and switch. Make sure the unit you want to buy is the unit you actually buy.

 

On 2/16/2017 at 6:40 PM, blackcab said:

I personally know people that have been ripped off, but not many. One was a Thai person who was ripped off by another Thai person. The second and third were foreigners who were ripped off by their Thai solicitors.

 

On 2/16/2017 at 9:59 PM, blackcab said:

On the other hand a friend of mine who has been in Thailand over 20 years was scammed by their solicitors. They had worked with their solicitor for years, and on this one occasion my friend was overseas and couldn't make it to the land office. They wired the money to their solicitor, who withdrew the full amount in cash and disappeared.

So for scams going on at the actual Land Office, can we limit the “known scams” to the “bait and switch”, i.e. seller transferring the wrong unit to the buyer? Seems like a strange scam though, as the chanot has the floorplan, so this should limit what the seller can actually transfer without a very high chance of being detected (even by a buyer who does not read Thai, and thus, cannot check the address).

 

On 2/16/2017 at 11:20 AM, happylarry said:

Unless your farang friend can speak very good fluent Thai then he should not even consider doing this himself without having an accomplished interpreter at his side […] Personally I wouldn't risk it without my own lawyer as well because there are many underhand tricks go on at the land offices if tea is offered.

What sort of tricks?

 

I ask because if there are actually known scams, I think a foreigner is much better off knowing about them than paying 10,000 baht to a lawyer, and hope his lawyer does not get fooled by any of them. Of course the best odds would be knowing about them plus having an experienced person with you to double check things.

 

But I have not heard anything that would cause me to warn people about going there alone, though I would say the same thing as when going to any other government office: If you do not speak Thai, expect a few challenges.

 

[blackcab]

Scams inevitably revolve around the scammer gaining unjust enrichment. When you are buying a property, this would mean giving you less than what you paid for, such as the bait and switch.

 

Often, there are several units in the building which are the same size. Imagine being shown something really nice, but instead buying an empty shell a few floors down. Afterwards the seller says you viewed the showroom and you understood you were buying a bare unit.

 

There are other ways to disadvantage a buyer, but they all revolve around giving someone else a Power Of Attorney to act on your behalf. The person you trust then scams you buy registering an encumbrance on the property without your consent. 

 

Scamming the seller is more difficult. Either you get paid or you don't. I have seen a case between two very respectable Thai people where the buyer transferred the funds before receiving the chanote. The chanote had a loan set against it, and the seller simply kept the payment and did nothing.

 

Another way to get scammed is to be the unintentional seller when the property is in a company name. I'm not going to go into detail, but if fraudulent changes are made to the company's documents then the property can be sold or a loan can be registered against the property without the foreign (proxy) owner being aware until it is too late.

 

As I mentioned before, the seller can also get scammed if their solicitor (or anyone else) handles the money and runs off with it. I've seen that happen.

 

If you reflect on the above, you will see it's not the land office who are ripping people off. It's mostly the case of people you trust ripping you off. Friends, family, solicitors, agents. This is why I urge people to get involved, to ask questions and to fully understand the (not very difficult) process.

[Mysterion]

Good feedback ladies and gents!

 

I have shared it with my friend.

 

thanks again. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by Mysterion