Visa Agents - Why Should We Be Castigated For Using Them

[scottiejohn]

CASTIGATED FOR USING VISA AGENTS

In order to remove some of the ‘bickering’ and non relevant discussion regarding visa agents that is going on in the well intentioned ‘Immigration Promenada One Stop Service’ Topic I thought it might be worthwhile to discuss agents, Pros/Cons here, rather than on the main topic. Lets leave the ‘Immigration Promenada One Stop Service’ Topic for constructive and relevant info and discuss agents etc here.

 

On that ‘Immigration Promenada One Stop Service’ main Topic I made, in part, the following comment(s) after many very negative posts re ‘Visa Agents’;

 

‘You might be quite happy wandering around shopping Malls, watching, films and eating overpriced crap at your favourite restaurant, but I do not. Nor do wish to get up at some stupid time in the morning to go to and sit on a plastic seat for God knows how long when I can get the same thing done a different way by getting up at a reasonable hour of the day (after 10AM) paying some money and get driven out to the ‘zoo’ for all of a max of 20 mins and back to the local for lunch.’

Why should those of us who wish, not forced, to use an agent not do so without being castigated by all and sundry?

 

Each to their own I say!

PS; Most airports now have a 'VIP/Fast Track' security and/or visa channel at a price.  What is the difference?

.

Edited February 15, 2017 by metisdead
Topic title edited to remove ALL CAPS.

[Trujillo]

A little editing might do the trick...maybe down to one line? 

 

"Those who wish to use agents, should." 

 

Closed topic. 

[FolkGuitar]

It's nice to have the various options available. There have been times when I've used the complete services of a visa agent, times when I've done it myself in toto, and still other times when I've just hired a 'chair sitter' to get me a front row seat.  I've got another 1yr renewal coming up in a couple of months. I'll decide then which of the three I'll use this time. I have the choice.

[mamborobert]

I tthought the issue of should people use agents or not had been done to death on another thread eons ago.  Given that the Expat Club has an agent as a sponsor, and II seem to recall that the forum had an agent as a sponsor (though could be wrong, its been known to happen occasionally) as well as agents sponsoring  various meetings and sports I thought they were generally accepted.

 

Similarly people use agents for property purchases/rentals and insurance with no controversy over the useage (and again the expat club has property and insurance agents as business sponsors).

 

The issue is probably the use of G4S.  By no means is G4S teh only agent with ex immigration staff or contacts.

 

There are however concerns over its legitiimacy and transperancy....and these may be well founded.

 

I do use G4s.  I capitalize on whatever relartionship they have.  The location, costst and speed are all convenient to me.  

 

Unfortunately, this is probably, as far as this discussion can go due to  the strict defamation laws, going to end up like the first two rules of  Fight Club, and evidence (lacking concrete though it is), as we are all aware,   factually correct or otherwise,  is not a defence

 

.

Edited February 15, 2017 by mamborobert

[MadMac]

It's not so much about the agents and the convenience to use them. Up to you. It's more that Chiang Mai immigration has become one of the worst in the whole country. 80 years old people need to queue at 3 in the night to get a number to queue again for someone playing Candy Crush on their phones. Shame.

[evenstevens]

20 minutes ago, mamborobert said:

 

 

I do use G4s.  I capitalize on whatever relartionship they have.  The location, costst and speed are all convenient to me.

 

 

 

.

^^^^^exactly my thoughts   as  G4T  visa agency, gave  E/S  a  lovely hands and heel ride ,and the whip was not drawn at all

and located  on course proper, (Promenada)

and here we have Nancy L, posting its wrong to use them,  or any other visa agent for that matter, and that us punters are Clueless for engaging them

how bitter can  one  be,!!!   posting that tripe, !!!

its  a Van Morrison early evening to all

 

[MadMac]

Don't blame Nancy, it's corrupt Kindergarten in Chiang Mai. I f you want tot support corruption, use an agent. Simple,

[Thailand]

I thought castigation was illegal in Thailand?

[mesquite]

I did my retirement visa extension and reentry permit myself for years.  After that I've used all three of the main visa services.  Right now G4T is the best for me.  I pay a visa service to do all the paperwork, stand in line (or allow me to cut in line) for the pictures and other necessary services at Imm., and to be there when I first show up at the meeting place, whether it is their office or at Immigration.  G4T has done all of this.

[MadMac]

Right, and why you need to use such agency?

[oxo1947]

13 minutes ago, MadMac said:

Right, and why you need to use such agency?

I used them when I didn't have sufficient funds to meet the criterion --used them when I have had an argument with immigration for different reasons.....used them when I have live at a distance from immigration & just couldn't be A$$ed to drive in,,,,,so on , over 20 years...probably used them about 4 times, they also have you on file & do the 90 day by internet---e-mail you to say its done. Khn k̄hī̂ keīyc .....yer  born that way........

Edited February 15, 2017 by oxo1947

[FolkGuitar]

3 minutes ago, MadMac said:

Right, and why you need to use such agency?

 

I don't think 'need' is the applicable word. I'd substitute 'want' instead.

Personally I don't 'want' to arrive a zero:dark thirty. I don't 'want' to sit on a hard stool for several hours waiting to get a number. I don't 'want' to have to make another trip to come back hours later to sit inside until that number is called. I prefer to spend my time in other endeavors. Hanging around Promenada just isn't that appealing to me.  There are those who DO want to do these things. I'm glad that they have the option. I'm glad that I do too.

[pgrahmm]

Our time - our money - our choice -

 

No castigating due - or warranted...

 

Have done it both ways over the years & I prefer to use an agency...

[Dante99]

35 minutes ago, MadMac said:

Don't blame Nancy, it's corrupt Kindergarten in Chiang Mai. I f you want tot support corruption, use an agent. Simple,

Get real, almost every time you spend 300 Baht anywhere, you are supporting some form of corruption somewhere in the supply chain of what you paid for.   It is absurd to suggest that agents are unusual in this regard and single them out.

 

 

 

 

[MadMac]

I don't support the corrupt immigration in Chiang Mai.

[amexpat]

1 hour ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

I don't think 'need' is the applicable word. I'd substitute 'want' instead.

Personally I don't 'want' to arrive a zero:dark thirty. I don't 'want' to sit on a hard stool for several hours waiting to get a number. I don't 'want' to have to make another trip to come back hours later to sit inside until that number is called. I prefer to spend my time in other endeavors. Hanging around Promenada just isn't that appealing to me.  There are those who DO want to do these things. I'm glad that they have the option. I'm glad that I do too.

 

OK, rephrase it.  Why do the conditions you don't "want" to experience exist at CM immigration? And why are they so easily circumvented by handing over money?  

[jonwilly]

I used to queue up at Immigration until say 5-6 years ago when the system changed and the 'Burmese' previously illegals became legal due to policy changes.

Massive increase in workload for the staff at Immigration, but no extra policemen doing the duty.

I started and still use Assist Thai Visa and consider it money well spent, for I get upset hanging around a facility not up to the new purpose. Age and physical being the main problems.

Slowly the layout is changing and one can but hope that when the new Immigration buildings are complete then we may have a chance of going back to a easy workable system.

As for folks who get upset about corruption, sorry but you have settled in the wrong country, their country and squeal all you like they will run it as they see fit.

Accepted  it or fight city hall or Better still go back to where you came from.

You will not be missed.

 

john

[Chicog]

Seems to me that there is a financial incentive for Immigration staff to make life difficult for those that aren't paying agents.

So in effect, by paying extra for a service which should be provided at government rates, you are making it worse for everybody.

 

 

[MadMac]

As I wrote elsewhere, I do my immigration things in BKK again. My hope is sometime they will get it right in CNX with the new office, but I doubt it, people will remain the same.

[mamborobert]

30 minutes ago, MadMac said:

As I wrote elsewhere, I do my immigration things in BKK again. My hope is sometime they will get it right in CNX with the new office, but I doubt it, people will remain the same.

 

I do recall from your other posts...owns a condo Bangkok but lives Chiang Mai with wife, and plans to stay here with the radio set up I gather....

 

So its bad to have questionable corruption and by using G4S to get a quicker process I am adding to it.  But it's ok to make a false declaration on an immigration application as to where I usually reside in order to get a quicker process.

 

Thanks for that tip in Ethics.  Good on you for doing it your way to avoid Prom Immi.  Now leave me alone to do it my way.

 

Clear as mud.

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, amexpat said:

 

OK, rephrase it.  Why do the conditions you don't "want" to experience exist at CM immigration? And why are they so easily circumvented by handing over money?  

 

Why do those conditions exist?

It's pretty simple...  The current methodology sucks.

 

W hy are they so easily circumvented by handing over money?

That's even simpler...

1. Either I get there at 4am or I hand over money to someone who gets there at 4am for me.

2. Either I wait there for several hours or I hand over money to someone else who waits there for several hours for me, then calls me when it's time to show up.

 

In neither case is Immigration getting paid off. It's just a matter of someone else doing the grunt work instead of me. There 'may be' agents who are able to go in the back door without waiting... I have no knowledge about that. The agents that I have used don't do anything different than I would have to do, only I don't have to do it... when I 'want' to use their services.

 

I'm in full agreement that this should NOT be necessary. I've lived in Asian countries where I would show up one day with my paperwork and just drop it into a basket along with my passport. 3-4 days later I'd receive a postcard telling me to come back in the afternoon to pick up a nice Three-year extension. Perhaps a 5-minute wait on line to do so. Much larger numbers going through one office, but much more efficient. I'd like to see that here. Perhaps one day we will. Until then, I'm happy to have options to chose how I want to deal with the current situation. It sure as hell beats having no options.

 

[FolkGuitar]

1 hour ago, Chicog said:

Seems to me that there is a financial incentive for Immigration staff to make life difficult for those that aren't paying agents.

 

 

Would you elaborate on how this financial incentive for the Imm staff works? Do you think the visa agents are paying to get in the back door? Are they paying to insure a clean renewal? And is it the boots-on-the-ground Imm officer sitting processing papers seeing this money, so they want all the headaches that they seem to be dealing with these days?  Where is this money that you are talking about going? And for what in return?

 

I don't see Assist Thai Visa doing anything that I would have to do if I use their service. They certainly aren't paying off anyone or going in the back door. They have their people up at 4am getting the first seats in line, just as I'd have to do. They have their people waiting, just as I'd have to do. How exactly is Immigration financially benefiting from this?

 

Now... there is NO question what so ever that they are benefiting from a smoother work flow, having the agents insure that all the required paperwork is available, all copies are signed, and everything is in the proper order for the officer to process the visa work without any interruptions caused by incomplete documentation. And for that, I'm sure they are very happy to see the agents show up. Less work for mother...

[amexpat]

^  Hook, line, and sinker. 

[SaintLouisBlues]

Are people back home castigated for using H&R Block for filing their tax returns when most of the time it's quite unnecessary?

[Thailand]

6 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

Would you elaborate on how this financial incentive for the Imm staff works? Do you think the visa agents are paying to get in the back door? Are they paying to insure a clean renewal? And is it the boots-on-the-ground Imm officer sitting processing papers seeing this money, so they want all the headaches that they seem to be dealing with these days?  Where is this money that you are talking about going? And for what in return?

 

I don't see Assist Thai Visa doing anything that I would have to do if I use their service. They certainly aren't paying off anyone or going in the back door. They have their people up at 4am getting the first seats in line, just as I'd have to do. They have their people waiting, just as I'd have to do. How exactly is Immigration financially benefiting from this?

 

Now... there is NO question what so ever that they are benefiting from a smoother work flow, having the agents insure that all the required paperwork is available, all copies are signed, and everything is in the proper order for the officer to process the visa work without any interruptions caused by incomplete documentation. And for that, I'm sure they are very happy to see the agents show up. Less work for mother...

I don't think most agents are using incentives to get in the back door.

[FolkGuitar]

4 hours ago, amexpat said:

^  Hook, line, and sinker. 

 

Let's look at it from a different perspective.

We know that no other Immigration Office has the problems seen here in the Chiang Mai office. We know this. We've heard it a dozen times from a dozen different regions. WE know... 

 

That presupposes that the rest of Thailand Immigration knows about the problem. It's very visible. So... Is this problem due to corruption? Or is it simply bad management?

1. Does the rest of Thailand Immigration support some sort of corruption? And if so, why isn't it going on at any other Immigration offices?

2. If it does NOT support corruption, why does it continue in Chiang Mai?

I suggest that this problem is NOT caused by corruption, but by management issues, and staffing problems exacerbated by a overly-large case load.

 

If you disagree, please show us the Financial Flow-chart to support your theory.

[Thailand]

The longest queues and most of the problems come at the extension of stay(retirement visa).

 

Most of the desks are staffed by 2, often more, officers.4 at the TM 30 desk top floor.

The extension of stay desk is, or certainly was last time I was there, staffed by only one officer? Does not take a management genius to work out a solution, unless there is a particular reason for not resolving the issue.

[NancyL]

2 hours ago, FolkGuitar said:

 

Let's look at it from a different perspective.

We know that no other Immigration Office has the problems seen here in the Chiang Mai office. We know this. We've heard it a dozen times from a dozen different regions. WE know... 

 

That presupposes that the rest of Thailand Immigration knows about the problem. It's very visible. So... Is this problem due to corruption? Or is it simply bad management?

1. Does the rest of Thailand Immigration support some sort of corruption? And if so, why isn't it going on at any other Immigration offices?

2. If it does NOT support corruption, why does it continue in Chiang Mai?

I suggest that this problem is NOT caused by corruption, but by management issues, and staffing problems exacerbated by a overly-large case load.

 

If you disagree, please show us the Financial Flow-chart to support your theory.

I have worked out the "Financial Flow-chart" and shared it with what I thought were appropriate people both foreign and Thai.  It really didn't take many sessions of sitting around Imm all day watching the action and talking with a few people.  The retaliation from CM Imm. told me that I was probably accurate in my assessments.  A portion of the fees you pay to all visa agents go to CM Imm to "grease the wheel".  As I mentioned in the Imm. Prom. thread, now hospitals are denied free access for medical extensions and are told to use G4T.  

 

Even small time operators, like a Thai lady who owns a restaurant and helps maybe 2 or 3 expats a month do their retirement extensions has been "called in" and had the "system" explained to her by CM Imm, what portion of her fee is suppose to go to them and if that portion is higher than what she currently charges,  she is advised to raise the fee to her customers.

 

The one "enhancement" they've done recently, is to permit visa agents, at least the bigger ones, to obtain "appointments" rather than having to send out staff to sit in the queue at 5 am.

 

[NancyL]

The problems with the retirement extension queue could be fixed with a proper on-line reservation system.  As this article in CityLife confirms, the Consular Corp had been working with CM Imm on a local on-line queue system but the project was abruptly shut down at the last minute.  One has to ask why: http://www.chiangmaicitylife.com/citylife-articles/guardians-of-our-gates/

 

After reading the article, largely an interview with the regional head of Imm,, I thought maybe they were getting ready to toss out the head of CM Imm, but no such thing happened.  

 

 

[FolkGuitar]

7 minutes ago, NancyL said:

I have worked out the "Financial Flow-chart" and shared it with what I thought were appropriate people both foreign and Thai.

 

I remember this from the schoolyard; "I have a secret and I know something you don't know!"

 

This implies that you don't feel the public is 'appropriate.'

You have some secrete knowledge that only a handful of people can know...  And obviously, the rest of Thailand's Immigration department either doesn't care to share in this financial bounty being brought in by the Chiang Mai office, doesn't want to let the other regions of Thailand profit from it,  or is too ignorant to figure it out themselves... Because it sure isn't going on anywhere else in Thailand Immigration.

 

A portion of the fees you pay to all visa agents go to CM Imm to "grease the wheel".

 

To grease what wheel? The agents aren't doing anything the individual has to do other than doing it for them. The entire operation isn't any faster. The only difference is who is doing the waiting around.