Patong - The Wake

[Jai Dee]

One flame post has been removed from this thread.

[Peterw42]

On 15/01/2018 at 10:56 AM, steelepulse said:

You do realize that they are notorious for not pulling down listings that either got sold, rented out or were taken off the market.  So who knows how many actual live listings there are there.  

Yes, I bought a condo 2 years ago and its still up on at least 2 websites.

[xylophone]

I don't want to get into the crosshairs of any argument, however it's easy to see both sides of it.

 

And I also think it depends upon whether one is buying something like a condo so that they can rent it out, or buying it in which to live, and to a certain extent depends upon the individual's experience in the marketplace here.

 

If I look at the experiences which have shaped my beliefs with regards to investing here (I have bought property in 3 countries and made a profit on all), they don't make good reading, hence I won't invest now and there are several other aspects to consider: –

 

I have mentioned that a friend's new penthouse, bought for 18 million baht, sold for 11 million baht three years later; a house bought for 5.25 million baht sold for 4 million baht just two years later; 62 m² one-bedroom apartment bought for 2.6 million baht sold for 1.55 million just recently, so these examples don’t make good reading.

 

Not only that one has to dodge the misleading information such as 30+30+30 year leases etc, not to mention the ‘”buyback clause after 15 years” scenario.

 

And I know of many properties that have been on the market for well over five years and have never moved.

 

I did mention other aspects to consider, and again, these are from experience: –

 

A friend's beautiful house with pool had a hotel built just a meter from the side of his property, which not only cut out much of the light, but was also noisy because of all the air-conditioners facing his property, not to mention a lack of privacy. So he went to 2 local lawyers to try and sue the developer and both of them refused to handle the case because they were pressured into dropping it by the developer, who had contacts here.

 

Luckily this friend was very wealthy and went to Bangkok and hired a top lawyer who successfully sued the developer and they had to buy the property for 27 million baht.

 

Now if this was any ordinary and non-wealthy farang, this would never have happened and he would have been stuck with an unsaleable property and something which was not at all what he had wanted.

 

A house rented out next to a friend of mines house, was inhabited by noisy partygoers who insisted on blaring music and noise until the wee small hours and nothing that my friend could do would stop this. He even contacted the agent who was handling the rental and he could do nothing either, so his life was a misery for many months.

 

I could go on, but I think one gets the gist of it and that is that this place is unlike others and you have very little comeback if neighbours or developers make your life a misery.

 

Finally, of course there are the poor individuals who have invested in the ACE condominiums and the developers have made off with the money, and according to reports in several newspapers, the BIB know who they are, but yet nothing has been done about it – – I wonder why?

 

Similarly, I wonder if the investors in the failed Phanason development in Nanai road will ever get their money back. Debatable, because rumour has it that the company has gone bust.

 

As I said, the above has helped shape my views on investing here and I know that people like LiK bought land and built many years ago and has made a good living out of it, however I do believe those days are probably long gone and anyway the posts that I have referred to have been mainly focused on the likes of condos and perhaps houses.

 

Being that this is a thread about "Patong – the Wake" there is another unwanted spin-off from the likes of the condos which a couple of posters have said they are selling loads of – – if they are anything like the Patong Bay Hill Resort condos with all of their super-duper promises, well these are rented out to cheap Chinese whose tours are arranged by agents in China, so they are in effect part of the zero baht tourist conundrum which is prevalent here in Patong – – i.e. plenty of visitors, but low spend, therefore the economy and many small businesses are suffering. 

 

[schlog]

Imho there is now no reason to buy. I made the best deals here when all wanted to get out of the door at same time like in 1997.

I will keep the land and 2 houses what i have and when the market is burning again then sure i will buy again. Preferable land plots.

 

How will be the impact on Phuket when the US interest rates continue to rise and the economic growth in China tends to shrink more?

Where will the big smart money goes? How will China react?

Will Thailand get high fewer when the chinese brother sneezing a lot?

 

This is only 1 aspect in my consideration and i'm not sure about all answers but buying time will come again.

 

 

 

[LivinginKata]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

 

<snip>

As I said, the above has helped shape my views on investing here and I know that people like LiK bought land and built many years ago and has made a good living out of it, however I do believe those days are probably long gone and anyway the posts that I have referred to have been mainly focused on the likes of condos and perhaps houses.

 

 

Completely agree. Even the 2 plots of sea view land we bought 15 years in Kata I decided not to waste money building, furnishing, and managing.  The land value is appreciating nicely and we could sell at short notice. But my wife likes the coconut and banana trees.

 

Those starting a business on a 3 year lease are destined to fail ... and quickly.

Edited January 16, 2018 by LivinginKata

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

I don't want to get into the crosshairs of any argument, however it's easy to see both sides of it.

 

And I also think it depends upon whether one is buying something like a condo so that they can rent it out, or buying it in which to live, and to a certain extent depends upon the individual's experience in the marketplace here.

 

If I look at the experiences which have shaped my beliefs with regards to investing here (I have bought property in 3 countries and made a profit on all), they don't make good reading, hence I won't invest now and there are several other aspects to consider: –

 

I have mentioned that a friend's new penthouse, bought for 18 million baht, sold for 11 million baht three years later; a house bought for 5.25 million baht sold for 4 million baht just two years later; 62 m² one-bedroom apartment bought for 2.6 million baht sold for 1.55 million just recently, so these examples don’t make good reading.

 

Not only that one has to dodge the misleading information such as 30+30+30 year leases etc, not to mention the ‘”buyback clause after 15 years” scenario.

 

And I know of many properties that have been on the market for well over five years and have never moved.

 

I did mention other aspects to consider, and again, these are from experience: –

 

A friend's beautiful house with pool had a hotel built just a meter from the side of his property, which not only cut out much of the light, but was also noisy because of all the air-conditioners facing his property, not to mention a lack of privacy. So he went to 2 local lawyers to try and sue the developer and both of them refused to handle the case because they were pressured into dropping it by the developer, who had contacts here.

 

Luckily this friend was very wealthy and went to Bangkok and hired a top lawyer who successfully sued the developer and they had to buy the property for 27 million baht.

 

Now if this was any ordinary and non-wealthy farang, this would never have happened and he would have been stuck with an unsaleable property and something which was not at all what he had wanted.

 

A house rented out next to a friend of mines house, was inhabited by noisy partygoers who insisted on blaring music and noise until the wee small hours and nothing that my friend could do would stop this. He even contacted the agent who was handling the rental and he could do nothing either, so his life was a misery for many months.

 

I could go on, but I think one gets the gist of it and that is that this place is unlike others and you have very little comeback if neighbours or developers make your life a misery.

 

Finally, of course there are the poor individuals who have invested in the ACE condominiums and the developers have made off with the money, and according to reports in several newspapers, the BIB know who they are, but yet nothing has been done about it – – I wonder why?

 

Similarly, I wonder if the investors in the failed Phanason development in Nanai road will ever get their money back. Debatable, because rumour has it that the company has gone bust.

 

As I said, the above has helped shape my views on investing here and I know that people like LiK bought land and built many years ago and has made a good living out of it, however I do believe those days are probably long gone and anyway the posts that I have referred to have been mainly focused on the likes of condos and perhaps houses.

 

Being that this is a thread about "Patong – the Wake" there is another unwanted spin-off from the likes of the condos which a couple of posters have said they are selling loads of – – if they are anything like the Patong Bay Hill Resort condos with all of their super-duper promises, well these are rented out to cheap Chinese whose tours are arranged by agents in China, so they are in effect part of the zero baht tourist conundrum which is prevalent here in Patong – – i.e. plenty of visitors, but low spend, therefore the economy and many small businesses are suffering. 

 

I think most people, including myself, would agree that there are significant risks to property investing in Phuket

 

However, i hope you would also agree that there are significant risks to property investing everywhere in the world. 

 

Pretty much everything you highlighted above can/has happened in developed countries around the world as well.

 

Personally i have heard similar stories from friends in both Canada and the USA.

 

Currently, many analysts suggest that the biggest real eatate bubbles in the world are in  developed markets such as Toronto, HK, Sydney, Melbourne, Auckland, Singapore, London, NYC, Miami, San Fran, Seattle, and Vancouver etc. Buyer beware there, and it may be a great time to sell if you own anything in those markets.

 

The bottom line is, it is impossible to generalize about phuket property, as some people will still lose allot of money, and others will still make allot of profit. As always, if you buy for the right price in the right location, you may be very successful. If you overpay and/or choose wrong location you are probably gonna get burned.

 

Now is not the time to buy anything off-plan in phuket. However, dig around and you can find some great deals on high yielding existing properties. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[xylophone]

28 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

Pretty much everything you highlighted above can/has happened in developed countries around the world as well.

IMO a statement that is far too glib and does not address the concerns I highlighted in my post.....namely here there is next to no avenue to pursue if a buyer has been lied to in regards to lease conditions or real estate agents promises; nothing to stop a developer building you out; no restraints on neighbours and what they do and no action to be taken if the person concerned has "contacts" here. Whereas in other countries there is.

 

Furthermore there are real estate industry bodies which oversee best practises and fine/dismiss/shut down rogue operators. Not here.

 

In addition I can take you to any number of Lawyers here who will set up a Thai Nominee Company in order to let you "buy/own" land/a property. Totally illegal yet they still flourish.  

 

28 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

As always, if you buy for the right price in the right location, you may be very successful

All of the examples I quoted did just that......and lost money!

 

This is still the Wild West as regards real estate and enforceable legislation, and the cowboys and their associates reap the benefits.

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

IMO a statement that is far too glib and does not address the concerns I highlighted in my post.....namely here there is next to no avenue to pursue if a buyer has been lied to in regards to lease conditions or real estate agents promises; nothing to stop a developer building you out; no restraints on neighbours and what they do and no action to be taken if the person concerned has "contacts" here. Whereas in other countries there is.

 

Furthermore there are real estate industry bodies which oversee best practises and fine/dismiss/shut down rogue operators. Not here.

 

In addition I can take you to any number of Lawyers here who will set up a Thai Nominee Company in order to let you "buy/own" land/a property. Totally illegal yet they still flourish.  

 

All of the examples I quoted did just that......and lost money!

 

This is still the Wild West as regards real estate and enforceable legislation, and the cowboys and their associates reap the benefits.

I do agree that that those specific risks are here in thailand, and probably to a greater extent than some more-developed nations.

 

Keeping in mind that property related taxes are much lower(or non-exisitant) in Thailand, and the general income tax base is much smaller than wealthy countries, and hence you tend to get less regulation/policing and more of a “wild west” mentality for everything. 

 

Often you will also find the most astute investors making the greatest returns where risk perception is highest, in any asset class.

 

Lets not forget the millions of people who lost everything in real estate during the USA market crash in 2007. Imagine all the guarantees offered by real estate decelopers and agents back in 2005/6 before the massive crash. It was hard if not impossible for those buyers to successfully sue anyone for recourse as well. That was the USA version of the asian financial crisis.

 

Those who cannot handle the risks and are not willing to do the required research, should definitely stay out of the property market everywhere.

 

At the end of the day, buying distressed property sales is the best strategy in thailand, as you tend to have a good margin of safety if things don't go as rosy as planned...and there are indeed quite a few distressed sellers here who paid far too much over the past years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2018 by Mysterion

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

As always, if you buy for the right price in the right location, you may be very successful

All of the examples I quoted did just that......and lost money!

 

How did they lose money if they originally bought it well below the market value in a good location?

[madmax2]

14 hours ago, schlog said:

Imho there is now no reason to buy. I made the best deals here when all wanted to get out of the door at same time like in 1997.

I will keep the land and 2 houses what i have and when the market is burning again then sure i will buy again. Preferable land plots.

 

How will be the impact on Phuket when the US interest rates continue to rise and the economic growth in China tends to shrink more?

Where will the big smart money goes? How will China react?

Will Thailand get high fewer when the chinese brother sneezing a lot?

 

This is only 1 aspect in my consideration and i'm not sure about all answers but buying time will come again.

 

 

 

Land is the way to go there is no depreciation That's how i invested and made most of my money, 

Nothing worth buying in Phuket at present its all very overpriced, i missed out on one block of land that has now been bought and resold twice and is really overpriced at present

Looked at 2 blocks of land in Phangnga one 14 rai with 2 year old rubber trees on it for 3M and the other 17 rai with a producing palm oil plantation on it for 7M, both negotiable prices, but both owners seemed to think that because some of the land had been promised to or was being used by another family member it may not be included in the sale even though its on the title deed, to much of a hassle to be bothered with purchasing them and i am not interested in farming anyway

[xylophone]

12 hours ago, Mysterion said:

I do agree that that those specific risks are here in thailand, and probably to a greater extent than some more-developed nations.

 

Keeping in mind that property related taxes are much lower(or non-exisitant) in Thailand, and the general income tax base is much smaller than wealthy countries, and hence you tend to get less regulation/policing and more of a “wild west” mentality for everything. 

 

Often you will also find the most astute investors making the greatest returns where risk perception is highest, in any asset class.

 

Lets not forget the millions of people who lost everything in real estate during the USA market crash in 2007. Imagine all the guarantees offered by real estate decelopers and agents back in 2005/6 before the massive crash. It was hard if not impossible for those buyers to successfully sue anyone for recourse as well. That was the USA version of the asian financial crisis.

 

Those who cannot handle the risks and are not willing to do the required research, should definitely stay out of the property market everywhere.

 

At the end of the day, buying distressed property sales is the best strategy in thailand, as you tend to have a good margin of safety if things don't go as rosy as planned...and there are indeed quite a few distressed sellers here who paid far too much over the past years.

 

 

 

 

 

 

“At the end of the day, buying distressed property sales is the best strategy in Thailand”

 

Starting with the positive in your post, looking for "distressed sales" would seem to be a way to go if one was thinking of investing in property here, thereby potentially insuring themselves somewhat against any future downturns.

 

“Lets not forget the millions of people who lost everything in real estate during the USA market crash in 2007. Imagine all the guarantees offered by real estate developers and agents back in 2005/6 before the massive crash. It was hard if not impossible for those buyers to successfully sue anyone for recourse as well”.

 

That was a totally different scenario in relation to what I have posted, because people did not lose their money or houses or businesses for that matter by virtue of misrepresentation by real estate agents or crooked developers. They lost everything because of a crash initiated by out of control lending and the financial engineering whizzkids in Wall Street when they dreamed up CDOs which were a worthless type of bond. 

“Those who cannot handle the risks and are not willing to do the required research, should definitely stay out of the property market everywhere”.

 

Firstly there is a huge difference between the risks one faces when investing in other countries versus the risks one faces when investing here and I have already highlighted some of those (crooked real estate agents, crooked developers, corruption, friends in high places, no legislative body, lies etc).

 

In other countries there are some risks, however they are more to do with the property cycles and the peaks and troughs one encounters, and should the seller need to dispose of the property in one of the troughs, then they could lose money. However it's generally considered that in "normal" and regulated countries, long-term property investment is profitable, and that's probably why some farangs buy here, because they think they are buying in a country where similar things apply – – but they don't, and they don't realise they are swimming with sharks when looking at real estate here.

 

Secondly you mention potential buyers doing the "required research"...... using what I ask?

 

There are no registered valuers here as far as I know, with every man and his dog and real estate agent putting a price on a property which they basically pull out of a hat. The land office is no help whatsoever because all they have is the totally outdated and practically useless value of a piece of land, and of course we know that many of these entries in the land office have been "paid for" to suit various people's needs.

 

The whole real estate situation here is completely unregulated and the idea of "market value" is a nonsense because it can be anything that anyone decides to put on their property, so buying below "market value" is a lottery. This especially when real estate agents would have you believe it is, “a good buy”.

 

You ask, “How did they lose money if they originally bought it well below the market value in a good location”?

See above para for the answer.

 

So, if the potential buyer can get by crooked real estate agents, crooked developers, corrupt BIB, false promises with regards to the types of leases and buyback clauses etc, no comeback regarding misrepresentation and lawyers willing to set up a company which is illegal, then maybe, just maybe there may be a glimmer of hope, but it is such a huge risk, so why take it when rents are so low?

 

Mysterion.....I have stated my case and being a property owner and investor in a number of countries, I believe my thinking is sound. You have put together what you see and believe, but we are poles apart and no amount of other posts will change this. So I will take my leave on this subject and will try to post on "The Wake" soon.

 

PS. I have just received a Private Message from a former property owner here where his case/circumstances were EXACTLY the same as the nightmares I referred to in a previous post and because of friends in high places and no help from the BIB, he has sold at a loss and moved on.

[madmax2]

Sea view land is land where if sitting in your lounge room and and you look out the window you have a sea view which cannot be blocked by people building in front of it

I have not seen any land here advertised as sea view that actually has permanent a sea view

If your sea view is from a roof top terrace on a 2 storey building or a view partly block by the back of a condo block its not a sea view in my opinion( would you call it a condo view) and never will be, quite often people claim land is sea view when there is undeveloped land which when its built on in front of it will block any sea view completely

Land is permanent sea view when the view cannot be built out ever, there is one block of land at the north end of Nai Harn beach currently being built on that has a genuine sea view which can never be built out which is sea front and has a steep slope to it

I have seen a valley view house on Phuket that has a far better view than any of the sea view land i have inspected in Phuket which usually has a view of developed land(Kata/Karon or Patong)with the sea in the background 

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, xylophone said:

“At the end of the day, buying distressed property sales is the best strategy in Thailand”

 

Starting with the positive in your post, looking for "distressed sales" would seem to be a way to go if one was thinking of investing in property here, thereby potentially insuring themselves somewhat against any future downturns.

 

“Lets not forget the millions of people who lost everything in real estate during the USA market crash in 2007. Imagine all the guarantees offered by real estate developers and agents back in 2005/6 before the massive crash. It was hard if not impossible for those buyers to successfully sue anyone for recourse as well”.

 

That was a totally different scenario in relation to what I have posted, because people did not lose their money or houses or businesses for that matter by virtue of misrepresentation by real estate agents or crooked developers. They lost everything because of a crash initiated by out of control lending and the financial engineering whizzkids in Wall Street when they dreamed up CDOs which were a worthless type of bond. 

“Those who cannot handle the risks and are not willing to do the required research, should definitely stay out of the property market everywhere”.

 

Firstly there is a huge difference between the risks one faces when investing in other countries versus the risks one faces when investing here and I have already highlighted some of those (crooked real estate agents, crooked developers, corruption, friends in high places, no legislative body, lies etc).

 

In other countries there are some risks, however they are more to do with the property cycles and the peaks and troughs one encounters, and should the seller need to dispose of the property in one of the troughs, then they could lose money. However it's generally considered that in "normal" and regulated countries, long-term property investment is profitable, and that's probably why some farangs buy here, because they think they are buying in a country where similar things apply – – but they don't, and they don't realise they are swimming with sharks when looking at real estate here.

 

Secondly you mention potential buyers doing the "required research"...... using what I ask?

 

There are no registered valuers here as far as I know, with every man and his dog and real estate agent putting a price on a property which they basically pull out of a hat. The land office is no help whatsoever because all they have is the totally outdated and practically useless value of a piece of land, and of course we know that many of these entries in the land office have been "paid for" to suit various people's needs.

 

The whole real estate situation here is completely unregulated and the idea of "market value" is a nonsense because it can be anything that anyone decides to put on their property, so buying below "market value" is a lottery. This especially when real estate agents would have you believe it is, “a good buy”.

 

You ask, “How did they lose money if they originally bought it well below the market value in a good location”?

See above para for the answer.

 

So, if the potential buyer can get by crooked real estate agents, crooked developers, corrupt BIB, false promises with regards to the types of leases and buyback clauses etc, no comeback regarding misrepresentation and lawyers willing to set up a company which is illegal, then maybe, just maybe there may be a glimmer of hope, but it is such a huge risk, so why take it when rents are so low?

 

Mysterion.....I have stated my case and being a property owner and investor in a number of countries, I believe my thinking is sound. You have put together what you see and believe, but we are poles apart and no amount of other posts will change this. So I will take my leave on this subject and will try to post on "The Wake" soon.

 

PS. I have just received a Private Message from a former property owner here where his case/circumstances were EXACTLY the same as the nightmares I referred to in a previous post and because of friends in high places and no help from the BIB, he has sold at a loss and moved on.

I agree we have different views on the phuket property market, and thats what makes a market function.

 

Indeed there will be winners and losers here,  just like everywhere. 

 

I hope that this sub-discussion has painted a far-more balanced view for anyone interested in phuket property.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Mysterion

[phuketrichard]

Quote

" have not seen any land here advertised as sea view that actually has permanent a sea view "

look at land along Millionaires row or in the hills of Kamala, Plenty of seaview land available

with prices to match!!!

[madmax2]

7 hours ago, phuketrichard said:

look at land along Millionaires row or in the hills of Kamala, Plenty of seaview land available

with prices to match!!!

Yes i know but if i was prepared to pay the prices they are asking i would buy in Australia where i can actually own the land in my own name not a nominees or company name and hope they don't enforce the the current company laws and take it away from me

This is not Hong Kong or Singapore, more like Bali, i have not checked for many years but when i did foreigners could not own land there as well just lease

[AJBangkok]

On 1/16/2018 at 10:11 PM, Mysterion said:

At the end of the day, buying distressed property sales is the best strategy in thailand, as you tend to have a good margin of safety if things don't go as rosy as planned...and there are indeed quite a few distressed sellers here who paid far too much over the past years.

The second mouse gets the cheese.

 

 

[Mysterion]

18 hours ago, AJBangkok said:

The second mouse gets the cheese.

 

 

That sums it up nicely ;-)

[xylophone]

13 hours ago, Mysterion said:

That sums it up nicely ;-)

Have got to feel sorry for the first "mouse" though, and an advertisement in the Phuket News sums this up: –

 

A 300 m² top floor apartment with own Jacuzzi, large dining area, kitchen etc etc and a few minutes walk from Kata beach, which was on the market for 25 million baht is now being offered at 15 million baht as an urgent sale.

 

And it is advertised with a 90 year lease, which would suggest that the original owner was stitched up in some way or another? So the second "mouse" could buy this and still find themselves in a bit of trouble with a lease like that.

 

Problem is, how do you know which "mouse" you are!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mysterion]

11 hours ago, xylophone said:

Have got to feel sorry for the first "mouse" though, and an advertisement in the Phuket News sums this up: –

 

A 300 m² top floor apartment with own Jacuzzi, large dining area, kitchen etc etc and a few minutes walk from Kata beach, which was on the market for 25 million baht is now being offered at 15 million baht as an urgent sale.

 

And it is advertised with a 90 year lease, which would suggest that the original owner was stitched up in some way or another? So the second "mouse" could buy this and still find themselves in a bit of trouble with a lease like that.

 

Problem is, how do you know which "mouse" you are!

 

 

 

 

 

As someone wise once said, “fools and their money are quickly parted.” Allot of excited Phuket vacationers probably fit into that catagory. 

 

I suppose one can have a sense of pity for the first foolish “mouse.”

 

In regards to the advertisement , i have found that there are many misleading advertisements claiming “urgent sales” and big discounts” etc.

 

After a little research, I usually  find that most of these “urgent sales” are not real “deals”.

 

But...sometimes if you dig deep enough and do your due dilligence, you can indeed find that real motivated seller.  

 

As an example, over the last couple or years I have come across some Russian foreign investors who have made huge cap gains just on the currency conversion from baht back to rubles, and now they are willing to cash-out their properties well below “market value” in baht terms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by Mysterion

[xylophone]

7 hours ago, Mysterion said:

I suppose one can have a sense of pity for the first foolish “mouse.”

So the second mouse gets the cheese and a 90 yr lease, then tries to sell it later only to find that 90 yr leases don't exist in Thai law, so has to sell at another loss?? And so on........

 

My point is and always has been that there is nothing here to protect one from the cowboy sellers, false promises, lies, crooked lawyers, corrupt land offices and corrupt BIB. And a place where all of these exist is not a place to invest ones hard earned money..........but good for the money launderers out there.

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

So the second mouse gets the cheese and a 90 yr lease, then tries to sell it later only to find that 90 yr leases don't exist in Thai law, so has to sell at another loss?? And so on........

 

My point is and always has been that there is nothing here to protect one from the cowboy sellers, false promises, lies, crooked lawyers, corrupt land offices and corrupt BIB. And a place where all of these exist is not a place to invest ones hard earned money..........but good for the money launderers out there.

 

I agree that there are less protections than in a developed country. Thats why a little basic due dilliegence now can save allot of tears in the future.

 

Indeed, anyone who believes that 30+30+30 leases are legally binding is a fool, and will likely depart from allot of their hard earned money.

 

Money launderers love real estate globally. The US, UK, Australia, Canada, and the UAE are actually the top destinations for real estate money launderers. Thailand would rank much lower.

 

The lowest risk property investment for a non-thai in thailand is the completed foreign-freehold condo sector.

 

Your risk will rise significantly when you stray into leasehold or corporate structures or offplan sales.

 

 

 

[xylophone]

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

I agree that there are less protections than in a developed country.

That has to be the understatement of the century!

 

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Thats why a little basic due dilliegence now can save allot of tears in the future.

How can one do due diligence on the land office, the promises made by real estate cowboys, or the side that the BIB will take in the case of a dispute? Or for that matter on the advice given by lawyers in many cases?

 

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

The lowest risk property investment for a non-thai in thailand is the completed foreign-freehold condo sector

Unless of course they come with "guarantees" of 10% returns for 15 years and "guaranteed" buy back after 15 years......then you really are on shaky ground trying to enforce those if they do not materialise.

 

5 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Indeed, anyone who believes that 30+30+30 leases are legally binding is a fool, and will likely depart from allot of their hard earned money

Seems like that promise (30+30+30) is quite widely published and believed (by fools?) and what about the thousands of farangs who have "bought" their houses through the Thai company route.......are they all fools too?

 

In most cases NO......they simply believed the real estate agents spiel along with the lawyers advice, and have no comeback whatsoever.

 

No surety, no safety, no comeback, no avenues to pursue, no help, no enforceable guarantees, no legal aid, no tribunal, no friends in high places..............certainly not a place for a farang who expects all of these when buying property elsewhere.

 

 

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, xylophone said:

That has to be the understatement of the century!

 

How can one do due diligence on the land office, the promises made by real estate cowboys, or the side that the BIB will take in the case of a dispute? Or for that matter on the advice given by lawyers in many cases?

 

Unless of course they come with "guarantees" of 10% returns for 15 years and "guaranteed" buy back after 15 years......then you really are on shaky ground trying to enforce those if they do not materialise.

 

Seems like that promise (30+30+30) is quite widely published and believed (by fools?) and what about the thousands of farangs who have "bought" their houses through the Thai company route.......are they all fools too?

 

In most cases NO......they simply believed the real estate agents spiel along with the lawyers advice, and have no comeback whatsoever.

 

No surety, no safety, no comeback, no avenues to pursue, no help, no enforceable guarantees, no legal aid, no tribunal, no friends in high places..............certainly not a place for a farang who expects all of these when buying property elsewhere.

 

 

Lol! That was a heck of a negative rant.

 

The vast majority of people who have done their due dilligence and bought completed foreign freehold units at the right price in the right location are doing just fine and never experience any of those negative scenarios you highlight.

 

As i said before, those who are using corporate structures to buy/own landed homes are usually knowingly taking a calculated risk. 

 

Fools that trust real estate agents anywhere are just that, fools. Most agents i have met, in many parts of the world, will do/say almost anything to get a sale. Most are incompetent and/or lazy, even in developed countries.

 

Another wise man once said “pity da fool”.

 

[Rimmer]

A post in Latin has been removed

[DrDave]

43 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

 

The vast majority of people who have done their due dilligence and bought completed foreign freehold units at the right price in the right location are doing just fine and never experience any of those negative scenarios you highlight.

 

 

This would be the definition of "Lucky" within the context of the Phuket real estate market.

[Mysterion]

1 hour ago, DrDave said:

This would be the definition of "Lucky" within the context of the Phuket real estate market.

hard work + preparation = good luck

 

In other words, taking the time and effort to do the research before making any investment will greatly increases the odds of success  ;-)

 

 

 

 

[LivinginKata]

23 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

hard work + preparation = good luck

 

In other words, taking the time and effort to do the research before making any investment will greatly increases the odds of success  ;-)

 

This is just so obvious. I've done that, been there. No time for those cry babies who lost their 'small' initial deposit. Bi Bi ..   

Edited January 21, 2018 by LivinginKata

[DrDave]

20 minutes ago, Mysterion said:

hard work + preparation = good luck

 

In other words, taking the time and effort to do the research before making any investment will greatly increases the odds of success  ;-)

 

 

 

 

Agreed, but it's wise to remember that in Phuket, with its culture of corruption, there can and will be situations in which no amount of due diligence and preparation will shield you from negative outcomes in the future.

I speak from experience.

[geriatrickid]

Are we talking about the same Phuket? Some people are talking about real estate buildings as if they were long term investments. In Phuket, for the small and mid market investor they cannot be. This type of investor makes up the main sales target. 

Oh sure we have the lease  term issues and whether or not they are viable, but that is nothing compared to the stark reality of QUALITY.  Look at the homes and condos built in the past decade. All the property targeted at the small and midsize investors that I have seen are of shoddy quality with cheap fixtures and finishings that have a short life span. The emphasis on  concrete leaves the dreaded discoloured black walls with mold  growing everywhere. Plastic piping with leaky connections, inadequate water supply and sewage disposal facilities, bad wiring, poor workmanship on floors and  framing etc.  The infamous pressed wood finishes are so much fun once they get wet, swell and then dry.

 

What's the point of putting out big money for a house or condominium with the intent of making an "investment"  in Phuket if a part of the  investment disintegrates and needs to be replaced within a relatively short time frame?

 

Many times I  rented a condo in a nice building and wondered if I should buy because the  cost was in my sweet spot only to discover that  there was a noise issue, or a building defect, or unpleasant neighbors, or a guy who took a flying leap off of a balcony, or a cockroach infestation etc. Such is the  nature of small and middle market real estate in the magical land of Phuket.  Yes, there are some very beautiful and quality built homes. However, the typical purchaser/investor doesn't have 25+ million baht to plop down.

[Mysterion]

2 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

Are we talking about the same Phuket? Some people are talking about real estate buildings as if they were long term investments. In Phuket, for the small and mid market investor they cannot be. This type of investor makes up the main sales target. 

Oh sure we have the lease  term issues and whether or not they are viable, but that is nothing compared to the stark reality of QUALITY.  Look at the homes and condos built in the past decade. All the property targeted at the small and midsize investors that I have seen are of shoddy quality with cheap fixtures and finishings that have a short life span. The emphasis on  concrete leaves the dreaded discoloured black walls with mold  growing everywhere. Plastic piping with leaky connections, inadequate water supply and sewage disposal facilities, bad wiring, poor workmanship on floors and  framing etc.  The infamous pressed wood finishes are so much fun once they get wet, swell and then dry.

 

What's the point of putting out big money for a house or condominium with the intent of making an "investment"  in Phuket if a part of the  investment disintegrates and needs to be replaced within a relatively short time frame?

 

Many times I  rented a condo in a nice building and wondered if I should buy because the  cost was in my sweet spot only to discover that  there was a noise issue, or a building defect, or unpleasant neighbors, or a guy who took a flying leap off of a balcony, or a cockroach infestation etc. Such is the  nature of small and middle market real estate in the magical land of Phuket.  Yes, there are some very beautiful and quality built homes. However, the typical purchaser/investor doesn't have 25+ million baht to plop down.

I dont know which condo(s) in phuket that you have rented, but it sounds like you had a bad personal experience.

 

I have personally visited/inspected most of the condos on the west coast and south coast.

 

Almost all common areas in the condos i have seen were maintained fair, good, or very good. Most older buildings(ie 5-15years old) required some cosmetic TLC(ie painting of exterior concrete walls every few years), but they had solid bones.

 

In regards to the interiors of units in older condo buildings, just like anywhere else in the world, if the owner maintained them on a basic level, they were usually in move-in condition, but perhaps in need of some cosmetic updating. Of course, if the owner neglected maintaining or mistreated their unit, they can fall into disarray after several years. 

 

Unfortunatly, “bad neighbors” can happen anywhere in the world. I hope you have better neighbors now or the next time you rent a place.

Edited January 21, 2018 by Mysterion