Oil Consumption

[transam]

11 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

I occasionally wonder why the air-cooled setup of the Volkswagen Beetle was not adopted by more car manufacturers. One less fluid system to leak, although there were presumably other variables which cancelled out that benefit.

GM USA used it the rear engined Corvair, some say it was a flop but l believe they sold a million of them..

[fredob43]

1 hour ago, melvinmelvin said:

interesting, I have actually been trawling the car spare part - battery - engine/gear oil area in BKK,

Worachak/Luang and have been to LOTS of shops outside the city center,

haven't been able to find it - except for the very expensive stuff for track racing that I mentioned above,

just a wee bit less than 3000 baht/litre

 

Cant say what the price is like on Full Syn, As I only ever use Semi Syn in my lumps. Cant see why I should pay crazy monies, as I have a 10th service every 5thkm. Seems completely pointless in my case.

Edited July 20, 2017 by fredob43

[transam]

Large % of engine wear is not thrashing a ride, it is on start up, no oil pressure for a few seconds. Syn takes care of that issue, if a film is present it's "body" takes care of stuff.

[melvinmelvin]

1 hour ago, transam said:

Large % of engine wear is not thrashing a ride, it is on start up, no oil pressure for a few seconds. Syn takes care of that issue, if a film is present it's "body" takes care of stuff.

 

yep,

thats one of the reasons I'm keen on synthetic (+ a bit additive to create long lasting film)

[bazza73]

2 hours ago, transam said:

GM USA used it the rear engined Corvair, some say it was a flop but l believe they sold a million of them..

Think the Corvair was the model slammed in Ralph Nader's book, "Unsafe at any Speed".

It presumably shared the oversteer characteristics of the Beetle, when most drivers were accustomed to understeer at that time. Although Porsche didn't have handling problems with rear engines.

Possibly an aircooled engine is too much for the floor pan and firewall to cope with if it's in the front of the car.

Apologies for being off topic.

[pgrahmm]

30 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Think the Corvair was the model slammed in Ralph Nader's book, "Unsafe at any Speed".

It presumably shared the oversteer characteristics of the Beetle, when most drivers were accustomed to understeer at that time. Although Porsche didn't have handling problems with rear engines.

Possibly an aircooled engine is too much for the floor pan and firewall to cope with if it's in the front of the car.

Apologies for being off topic.

Also the fact that the bayonet part of the shock absorbers was the only thing keeping the suspension from popping open & the coil springs shooting out against buildings, people, fences, etc....Among other things....

[fredob43]

3 hours ago, transam said:

Large % of engine wear is not thrashing a ride, it is on start up, no oil pressure for a few seconds. Syn takes care of that issue, if a film is present it's "body" takes care of stuff.

So your telling me that if you use the lump twice everyday the engine dries out semi doesn't do that.??? Bugger me it takes hours to even come down to tepid temp: here. & that's with the bonnet/hood open. Sorry but that's a load of cods wallop.

 

Semi is as stated recommended by Toyota. If it needed full syn, they would recommend it. There are some peeps that think that using Full Syn extends the life of oil and can go longer that the recommended service time. Also C/W

 

I'll go on having my full service done at Toyota every 5th if not before if I'm doing a long run, using their Semi. But I will always take it easy on start up time till the engine heats up.

[transam]

30 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

So your telling me that if you use the lump twice everyday the engine dries out semi doesn't do that.??? Bugger me it takes hours to even come down to tepid temp: here. & that's with the bonnet/hood open. Sorry but that's a load of cods wallop.

 

Semi is as stated recommended by Toyota. If it needed full syn, they would recommend it. There are some peeps that think that using Full Syn extends the life of oil and can go longer that the recommended service time. Also C/W

 

I'll go on having my full service done at Toyota every 5th if not before if I'm doing a long run, using their Semi. But I will always take it easy on start up time till the engine heats up.

It seems you do not understand what I have written..Never mind...

[fredob43]

39 minutes ago, transam said:

It seems you do not understand what I have written..Never mind...

Think I do understand. You are saying that only. Full Syn will work well on a cold engine. I just pointed out around the houses must admit, that engines don't get COLD here.

 

So no need to put it in, especially on the new lumps here. My two old 3lt Toyota engine's oil went black after 1,000km. The new ones oil looks like its just been changed and that's after 3.000+ have put that down to low rev's & low compression.

 

Just been out with cold engine and as usual all the lights came on the dash. All including the oil light went out as soon as I pressed the start button.

 

If I have still got it incorrect please inform.

 

 

Edited July 20, 2017 by fredob43

[ktm jeff]

5 hours ago, transam said:

Large % of engine wear is not thrashing a ride, it is on start up, no oil pressure for a few seconds. Syn takes care of that issue, if a film is present it's "body" takes care of stuff.

Catrol does some good oil. Their Magnatec really does provide a protective film of oil that helps at the most critical point - a cold and "oil dry" start-up.  Im a fan / believer of Slick 50 additives too. Now theres a topic for debate.

[VocalNeal]

On 7/18/2017 at 6:12 PM, Kwasaki said:

OK as usually with people on here, disagree with 30 years of experience in servicing motorbikes.

Only 30!

[VocalNeal]

7 hours ago, bazza73 said:

Although Porsche didn't have handling problems with rear engines.

Are you insane? They are noteworthy for it. The problem being that Americans didn't adapt to the Corvair, just like they don't adapt very well to living abroad! Corvair Turbo was a nice car.

[JAS21]

14 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Think I do understand. You are saying that only. Full Syn will work well on a cold engine. I just pointed out around the houses must admit, that engines don't get COLD here.

 

So no need to put it in, especially on the new lumps here. My two old 3lt Toyota engine's oil went black after 1,000km. The new ones oil looks like its just been changed and that's after 3.000+ have put that down to low rev's & low compression.

 

Just been out with cold engine and as usual all the lights came on the dash. All including the oil light went out as soon as I pressed the start button.

 

If I have still got it incorrect please inform.

 

 

EGR is a big cause of black oil ... especially in a diesel.

 

The oil in my EV doesn't 'blacken' as soon as that in the V-Cross did. When I blanked the EGR, on the V-Cross, the oil stayed clean.

 

I still have the blanking plates if anyone wants them ...

 

After I changed to 'Mobil 1 for Turbo Diesel PU' in the V-Cross I didn't get that initial diesel rattle on start up... 

Edited July 21, 2017 by JAS21

[melvinmelvin]

15 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Think I do understand. You are saying that only. Full Syn will work well on a cold engine. I just pointed out around the houses must admit, that engines don't get COLD here.

 

So no need to put it in, especially on the new lumps here. My two old 3lt Toyota engine's oil went black after 1,000km. The new ones oil looks like its just been changed and that's after 3.000+ have put that down to low rev's & low compression.

 

Just been out with cold engine and as usual all the lights came on the dash. All including the oil light went out as soon as I pressed the start button.

 

If I have still got it incorrect please inform.

 

 

I don't think that is what transam is saying.

(ought to be carefull about interpreting posts of others, but here goes)

 

I think he is saying that after you stop the engine the film on the moving parts will gradually drip/go/slide away

so that you end up with metal-metal in stead of metal-film-metal.

Thats tough for any engine when firing up and until the oil is thrown around and films rebuilt.

(this has more to do with time between starts and composition of lubricant than temperature of engine)

 

Films created by synthetic oil lasts longer than mineral oil films or semi synth oil films.

Various additives can also be used to prolong the lifetime of the films.

 

This applies to mills as well as to gear boxes.

 

[transam]

16 hours ago, fredob43 said:

Think I do understand. You are saying that only. Full Syn will work well on a cold engine. I just pointed out around the houses must admit, that engines don't get COLD here.

 

So no need to put it in, especially on the new lumps here. My two old 3lt Toyota engine's oil went black after 1,000km. The new ones oil looks like its just been changed and that's after 3.000+ have put that down to low rev's & low compression.

 

Just been out with cold engine and as usual all the lights came on the dash. All including the oil light went out as soon as I pressed the start button.

 

If I have still got it incorrect please inform.

 

 

Sorry, you do not understand...But perhaps it is how I have written it.....

It is common knowledge that a large % of engine wear is on startup, why, because the engine even before it fires is rotating, when it fires and whizzes around at speed it has little or no oil pressure. During this period the crank bearings, bores and cam stuff relies totally on the oil FILM that was left on shut down.

 

My point was that full syn oil is king of the hill in providing that film, that is why some manufacturers have long service intervals, they use syn oil, some highly stressed engines use syn oil, in my old fun ride l used syn oil to stop a big end bearing problem, and it did.

 

I have not said your engine will fail if you don't use syn, I have pointed out where a large % of engine wear comes from and the possible benefits of using syn oil..

 

 

[fredob43]

42 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

I don't think that is what transam is saying.

(ought to be carefull about interpreting posts of others, but here goes)

 

I think he is saying that after you stop the engine the film on the moving parts will gradually drip/go/slide away

so that you end up with metal-metal in stead of metal-film-metal.

Thats tough for any engine when firing up and until the oil is thrown around and films rebuilt.

(this has more to do with time between starts and composition of lubricant than temperature of engine)

 

Films created by synthetic oil lasts longer than mineral oil films or semi synth oil films.

Various additives can also be used to prolong the lifetime of the films.

 

This applies to mills as well as to gear boxes.

 

Having looked it up and read the book Toyota suggest that semi Syn is perfectly ok for normal usage. If on the other hand you stress the engine (EG High speed runs frequent stop starts) you should change oil & filter at 5000km. That goes for Full or Semi Syn. Seems a tad over the top to use Full Syn, if like me you change oil every 5000 or less regardless.

 

Reply to TA. I have no doubt that full Syn is better than semi oil but does it warrant the extra cost???  

Edited July 21, 2017 by fredob43

[transam]

11 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

Having looked it up and read the book Toyota suggest that semi Syn is perfectly ok for normal usage. If on the other had you stress the engine (EG High speed runs frequent stop starts) you should change oil & filter at 5000km. That goes for Full or Semi Syn. Seems a tad over the top to use Full Syn, if like me you change oil every 5000 or less regardless.

 

Reply to TA. I have no doubt that full Syn is better than semi oil but does it warrant the extra cost???  

For me no, in the ride I have, if Toyota have done all their tests on mineral based oils then that is fine by me. But if I were a rich guy I would put full syn it, l reckon it will go on working a lot longer.

When my ride was new I had them change the oil and filter at 1000km, they said NO, I said just do it please, then at 10,000km had it changed, then at 20,000km l put syn in it to give it a birthday and get the stuff embedded into everything. After that semi-syn every 10,000km..

My Vigo handbook states oil and filter every 10,000km, it gets Mobil semi now, did use the Shell semi before....

[Gary A]

I use whatever the manufacturer recommends. They have to cover the warranty and if the oil suits them, it certainly suits me. If you have an old vehicle that burns excessive oil, you have the option to replace the engine with a used one imported from Japan or an overhaul replacing piston rings and valve seals. I think it is amazing that these small engines, given proper care, will run 300,000 to 400,000 kilometers. Abuse your engine at your own peril.

[melvinmelvin]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

For me no, in the ride I have, if Toyota have done all their tests on mineral based oils then that is fine by me. But if I were a rich guy I would put full syn it, l reckon it will go on working a lot longer.

When my ride was new I had them change the oil and filter at 1000km, they said NO, I said just do it please, then at 10,000km had it changed, then at 20,000km l put syn in it to give it a birthday and get the stuff embedded into everything. After that semi-syn every 10,000km..

My Vigo handbook states oil and filter every 10,000km, it gets Mobil semi now, did use the Shell semi before....

 

in the long run I reckon being generous when it comes to lubrication and spark plugs is a fairly cheap way

of "ensuring" long and healthy life for the mill/(gear)

 

reminds me of my sparkplug rant;

am not happy with these iridium plugs, they are costly,

I change plugs frequently and I would do fine with copper plugs, but they are hard to come by

 

[Kwasaki]

29 minutes ago, fredob43 said:

Having looked it up and read the book Toyota suggest that semi Syn is perfectly ok for normal usage. If on the other hand you stress the engine (EG High speed runs frequent stop starts) you should change oil & filter at 5000km. That goes for Full or Semi Syn. Seems a tad over the top to use Full Syn, if like me you change oil every 5000 or less regardless.

 

Reply to TA. I have no doubt that full Syn is better than semi oil but does it warrant the extra cost???  

That's my take on it too, so will support you in this dispatch   correct Castrol products like magnatec have been protecting cold starts for dok years.

 

The engine temperature light on both family cars goes out after about 10 secs if that.

 

If your going high-tune your spivo and race it use full syn,  if you trade it in for a Land Cruiser you can get one that does 230 mph ( 370 kph ). 

[bazza73]

12 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Are you insane? They are noteworthy for it. The problem being that Americans didn't adapt to the Corvair, just like they don't adapt very well to living abroad! Corvair Turbo was a nice car.

Having driven several Porsches, my experience is they stick to the road like the proverbial to a blanket.

Perhaps you are only used to American cars with acres of sheet metal and terminal understeer.

[transam]

5 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

 

in the long run I reckon being generous when it comes to lubrication and spark plugs is a fairly cheap way

of "ensuring" long and healthy life for the mill/(gear)

 

reminds me of my sparkplug rant;

am not happy with these iridium plugs, they are costly,

I change plugs frequently and I would do fine with copper plugs, but they are hard to come by

 

My fun ride had a mega powerful aftermarket ignition system, l could not believe how powerful it was until one night l lifted the hood to see what looked like lightening strikes.......Yet the system, leads had top notch silicon rubber stuff sealing in all power, took a while to cure it, never seen anything like it, but the manufacturer of the system said don't use "fancy" plugs.

 

Anyhooooo, as a few of us were messing with nitrous oxide and super chargers we found NGK plugs were by far the best with no real probs at all...

[fredob43]

37 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

That's my take on it too, so will support you in this dispatch   correct Castrol products like magnatec have been protecting cold starts for dok years.

 

The engine temperature light on both family cars goes out after about 10 secs if that.

 

If your going high-tune your spivo and race it use full syn,  if you trade it in for a Land Cruiser you can get one that does 230 mph ( 370 kph ). 

T/A like you I tried to get them to change oil at first service. Looked at me as if I was crazy. But they did it anyway at a cost. This time I didn't even ask seemed pointless.

 

Will do full service around the 5.000 mark. For the usual I assume 1.600bt that does include grease prop, oil filter, oil, Service, not forgetting VAT.

 

K/S all my lights go out almost instantly. Don't have temp light have gauge.

 

Regards to putting a race chip in the new one going to give that a miss. The extra power coupled to the new 6 speed box so far is good enough. Tons of go well for me,. Must say do miss the 3rd gear option that I used on the old 4 speed box whilst overtaking though.

Driving it in D setting ECO the torque converter is nowhere near as sharp as old one. Sport setting is much better but still loose.

 

Good idea to change lump for a Land Cruiser, only prob: where can I use it. Besides that the 215+kph that the old one did put the fear of Buddha up me. It ain't a race car it's a Tank.

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, fredob43 said:

Good idea to change lump for a Land Cruiser, only prob: where can I use it. Besides that the 215+kph that the old one did put the fear of Buddha up me. It ain't a race car it's a Tank.

Well as you know it's a bit tricked up but interesting.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorsports/videos/a33394/watch-this-land-cruiser-set-a-230-mph-suv-top-speed-record/

[VocalNeal]

4 hours ago, bazza73 said:

Having driven several Porsches, my experience is they stick to the road like the proverbial to a blanket.

Then you will know they are notoriously tail happy. Which is what the Corvair was criticised for. 

 

But don't take my word for it.

 

Quote

Further distinguishing the 911 from anything else on the road was its short wheelbase, rear weight bias and semi-trailing arm rear suspension. Despite the automaker’s efforts, the tail-happy driving nature of the 911 wasn’t resolved until much later in its lifetime.

 

[bazza73]

17 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

Then you will know they are notoriously tail happy. Which is what the Corvair was criticised for. 

 

But don't take my word for it.

 

 

The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as discarding the old ones.

[transam]

 

[bazza73]

2 hours ago, transam said:

 

A bit of alternative facts in this video.

Wear in engines occurs mostly when repeatedly starting from cold to hot. Or being thrashed.

Taxis in Australia ( and we do have some hot climates ) normally rack up between 500,000 and 1 million kilometers per engine. That's because they are driven in shifts, due to the cost of a taxi licence. No owner can afford to have a taxi that is not working 24/7. So the engines never cool down.

Thrashing a taxi in Australia would be an expensive exercise due to speeding fines. The driver wears the cost of those fines, not the owner.

A nice bit of advertising; however, not quite accurate and I suspect any good oil brand would get the same results.

[transam]

8 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

A bit of alternative facts in this video.

Wear in engines occurs mostly when repeatedly starting from cold to hot. Or being thrashed.

Taxis in Australia ( and we do have some hot climates ) normally rack up between 500,000 and 1 million kilometers per engine. That's because they are driven in shifts, due to the cost of a taxi licence. No owner can afford to have a taxi that is not working 24/7. So the engines never cool down.

Thrashing a taxi in Australia would be an expensive exercise due to speeding fines. The driver wears the cost of those fines, not the owner.

A nice bit of advertising; however, not quite accurate and I suspect any good oil brand would get the same results.

I thought they showed an engine run on syn and an engine run on mineral, to me the evidence is clear if you listen to what the fleet owner and the motor engineer are saying. On my fun ride that eventually used syn I found exactly the same results as them...Even my non adjustable timing chain remained un-stretched after 700hp runs... .

Edited July 22, 2017 by transam

[bazza73]

Just now, transam said:

I thought they showed an engine run on syn and an engine run on mineral, to me the evidence is clear if you listen to what the fleet owner and the motor engineer are saying. On my fun ride that eventually used syn I found exactly the same results as them...

I'm not arguing about the relative merits of synthetic and mineral, that was settled long ago. Just saying the video proposition of heat being a factor is erroneous. Also, a taxi engine should be only just getting into its stride at 121,000 miles.