Digital Nomads

[rossabout]

I live in Thailand on a Marriage visa.  I earn my income online doing remote tech support.  Is there a work permit that fits me.  I have read so many opinions on this.  From just keep quiet, to Immigration is not cracking down on this.  However, on my last renewal we were asked how I earn money to live here.  My bank account for marriage visa remains around the 400K baht required.  We have separate accounts for our daily spending.  There must be a legal solution for this gray area of work.

 

If you are in the same boat and have figured out how to navigate this please share

[mstevens]

There is not a simple solution.  Strictly speaking you should set up a Thai company, employ 4 Thais to qualify for a work permit to be legal.  You'd then have to meet all of the costs of setting up and running a business, paying the salaries for 4 staff you probably don't need, pay all taxes and all other associated expenses as well as all the hassles you get with employing people.

 

What a lot of people do is just fly under the radar.  I get the feeling many would like to be legal and not have the worry of working illegally and not having to do visa runs ever 2 or 3 months, but at the end of the day the way the system is now it is just too much hassle for many people to become legal, .especially if their earnings from online activities are relatively modest.

 

It would be nice to think the Thais might come up with a solution to this issue whereby digital nomads could get legal and Thailand benefit through increased tax income .... but do we really think that is going to happen any time soon?

 

I would not ever want to recommend someone do something illegal, so let's just say that I understand why so many choose to fly under the radar.

[elviajero]

Just keep quite. Lots of people earn a passive income from businesses abroad without working.

[ubonjoe]

I don't think they want to know how you earn your income. They only want to see where it is coming from. If they ask again show them proof of transfers going into your account from abroad or some other proof it is coming from outside the country.

[rkidlad]

If you're making money from abroad and spending it here. they couldn't care less. It's only a problem (like everything else in Thailand) when it's out in the open. No one minds if the invisible man comes for dinner kinda logic. Except you're bringing your own food and leaving food for others. 

 

I know a guy who makes pretty good coin from affiliate marketing. He actually asked someone in immigration he knew about becoming legal and paying his taxes. He was told he should get an elite visa. Be sure that all his money is sourced from abroad. Money coming from China is a Brucie bonus for some reason.  

 

I'm sure many people want to become legal, pay taxes, get work permits and feel like a more productive part of Thai society. Government could collect some much wanted income tax, but it is what it is.

 

 

[BritTim]

At the current time, there is plenty of evidence that digital nomads are tolerated. While it is technically illegal to work in Thailand without a work permit, the authorities understand there is no practical way of becoming legal. They know where many of the digital nomads are. This pragmatic approach could suddenly change, but I consider it unlikely.

[mikebell]

See the Nate story - at the moment there's an amnesty for foreign workers so he's not getting prosecuted until it's safe for the Cambodians/Burmese toreturn.

[ubonjoe]

9 minutes ago, mikebell said:

See the Nate story - at the moment there's an amnesty for foreign workers so he's not getting prosecuted until it's safe for the Cambodians/Burmese toreturn.

That is not true. That is only for the changes put in place for migrant workers. The working alien act of 2008 is still in effect.

[csabo]

Can't knock a guy for trying to pay his share. Go down to the ministry of labor and show them what you do. If they say you don't need a work permit get it in writing. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by csabo

[csabo]

43 minutes ago, mikebell said:

See the Nate story - at the moment there's an amnesty for foreign workers so he's not getting prosecuted until it's safe for the Cambodians/Burmese toreturn.

Even if this were true the amnesty will eventually end and then what? 

[ashnad836]

2 minutes ago, csabo said:

How do all these digital nomads make money? Selling, writing/editing, digital photo editing? Everyone is always saying they work online but never what they do. 

There are really 2 main ways broadly speaking.

 

1. affiliate marketers, ecommerce e.g. Amazon or shopify dropshipping,  bloggers. in this model you are effectively running a business. 

 

2. freelancers. in this model you are selling a service for your time. could be anything but Seo,  graphic design and web development etc are all popular.

 

in both categories there is a small percentage of people who are making decent money and a huge load who are making beer money.

[micmichd]

46 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not true. That is only for the changes put in place for migrant workers. The working alien act of 2008 is still in effect.

I'm here as a pensioner on an O-M visa, but now I want to go back to work again. As a freelancer using VPN or as an employee, I don't care. Guess I've got skills that are quite rare in Thailand. 

Would it be possible to get a working permit on my current O-M visa without leaving Thailand? 

Edited July 19, 2017 by micmichd

[JackThompson]

5 hours ago, mstevens said:

There is not a simple solution.  Strictly speaking you should set up a Thai company, employ 4 Thais to qualify for a work permit to be legal.  You'd then have to meet all of the costs of setting up and running a business, paying the salaries for 4 staff you probably don't need, pay all taxes and all other associated expenses as well as all the hassles you get with employing people.

...

The OP is married, so he could probably just employ 2 Thais (depends on the local office), and make himself the director, if he sets up the business with his wife as majority stockholder.  

But there are still the capital-requriements to meet.  For that, there is the strategy many have proposed, which is having the wife start the business solo, to avoid having to put in all the capital, then the foreigner buys in later - but I would be wary of this.  I have also read reports of foreigners in trouble for faking capital - though they may not have followed that formula.  I know many say they have done it successfully with the 'wife first' plan - but I wonder about some reckoning at a later-date. 

Then there is the tax-question - but that depends largely on whether you are paying taxes now in your passport-country or elsewhere, any bi-lateral tax-treaties, etc.

Edited July 19, 2017 by JackThompson

[Dan5]

I'm pretty sure it is legal to run an online business outside Thailand without a work permit. But I'd guess you'll get a debate on this forum as to whether it is technically legal.

 

But this bottom line is that immigration isn't going to bother you about it (except possibly if you ask them about it, you never know how any individual IO would react. I know of many people who have been doing online businesses for many years without a problem and have never heard of anyone having a problem.  It makes sense. You are not competing with Thais for the work.

[DavisH]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

I don't think they want to know how you earn your income. They only want to see where it is coming from. If they ask again show them proof of transfers going into your account from abroad or some other proof it is coming from outside the country.

What would happen in the case if I got a marriage visa, put in the 400K, and was actually retired (or maybe doing some part time work), but my Thai wife was the main income earner? Is that still ok?

[BritTim]

8 minutes ago, DavisH said:

What would happen in the case if I got a marriage visa, put in the 400K, and was actually retired (or maybe doing some part time work), but my Thai wife was the main income earner? Is that still ok?

You would be following the rules, and causing no one any problems. Whatever the spirit of the law might be, there is no way this would be unacceptable.

[blorg]

An alternative to the "set up a company and employ four Thais" is Iglu (www.iglu.net). Basically the way it works is you bring your clients to them, they employ you, get you a work permit, they bill your clients and take a 30% cut, out of which they pay your Thai taxes and social security, as well as taking their cut. $2,500 monthly minimum. Now a flat 30% is quite high, and probably quite a bit higher than your Thai taxes would be if you did them yourself, but it could be cheaper than setting up your own company and employing four Thai people.

 

Or alternatively, keep your head down and keep doing what you are doing.

 

The Elite visa is a convenient way for people to stay here long term if they don't meet some other criteria (married, retired, Thai dependants, working, student, etc.) It is NOT a work visa and does NOT give you the right to work. It just fixes long term stay issue, which you have fixed already through marriage. It is basically a long-stay tourist visa, that's it. So I see no point in that.

[ashnad836]

19 minutes ago, blorg said:

An alternative to the "set up a company and employ four Thais" is Iglu (www.iglu.net). Basically the way it works is you bring your clients to them, they employ you, get you a work permit, they bill your clients and take a 30% cut, out of which they pay your Thai taxes and social security, as well as taking their cut. $2,500 monthly minimum. Now a flat 30% is quite high, and probably quite a bit higher than your Thai taxes would be if you did them yourself, but it could be cheaper than setting up your own company and employing four Thai people.

 

Or alternatively, keep your head down and keep doing what you are doing.

 

The Elite visa is a convenient way for people to stay here long term if they don't meet some other criteria (married, retired, Thai dependants, working, student, etc.) It is NOT a work visa and does NOT give you the right to work. It just fixes long term stay issue, which you have fixed already through marriage. It is basically a long-stay tourist visa, that's it. So I see no point in that.

iglu seems to be aimed more at relocating already established individuals from overseas.

 

You need a degree and 2 years of work references or 5 years of work references with no degree.

 

how flexible this is i don't know as they are a BOI.

 

I expect more companies like this to pop up as other visa options become less feasible which will hopefully add some competition and drive the price down a little. 

 

a good on them tho at least it's another option for those who are serious about staying longer term and being legit.

[ubonjoe]

1 hour ago, micmichd said:

Would it be possible to get a working permit on my current O-M visa without leaving Thailand? 

It would depend upon what your non-o visa was based upon.

If based upon marriage then you could get a work permit. If for retirement it would not normally be possible.

[kingstonkid]

I think the issue is really where and how the money comes in.

 

As a retiree I have my pension sent from a cdn bank and take what I need.

 

I think it would be different if I just had a Thai account and different people were inputting cash.

[ubonjoe]

40 minutes ago, DavisH said:

What would happen in the case if I got a marriage visa, put in the 400K, and was actually retired (or maybe doing some part time work), but my Thai wife was the main income earner? Is that still ok?

If using the money in the bank option it does not matter where the money you live on comes from. Your wife could be the sole provider in that case.

[blorg]

2 minutes ago, kingstonkid said:

I think the issue is really where and how the money comes in.

As a retiree I have my pension sent from a cdn bank and take what I need.

I think it would be different if I just had a Thai account and different people were inputting cash.

That's wouldn't be a "digital nomad" then, that would be working in Thailand for a local employer which is nowhere near a grey area. Digital nomads also have their income coming from abroad same as you. Many don't even have a Thai bank account, they just use their home country ATM card to get cash.

[khunPer]

8 hours ago, rossabout said:

There must be a legal solution for this gray area of work.

To my knowledge there is no simple solution – most people posting about this, suggest to keep low profile under the radar. I think today's news article about the Youtube-poster "My Mate Nate" says it with user "impulse's" reply.

 

Obtaining a Work Permit will either be if you can find a company to formally employ you under some conditions, so you can do your work legally – cut be invoicing for you and take a cut/percentage of the turnover in return for Work Permit – or you establish your own Thai company limited, which then require 2-4 Thai workers to be employed for one foreigner's Work Permit.

 

You can legally live from savings, and dividends, and income from abroad – income as long as not taken in the same year as earned, but next year when regarded as savings, as otherwise taxable in Thailand – but you may be requested to show some foreign transfers in your account used for daily living expenses. It's same as folk staying under extension based on retirement; there's no demand for how much you shall spend – i.e. the 400k or 800k baht deposits, or combined with income, are just proof of that you can afford to live in Thailand – it's a question of balance.

 

It's my impression that digital normads, which do their "work" in Thailand, and have income from abroad only, use a foreign or offshore bank account for their earnings, and transfer from that into a Thai bank account; i.e. so it looks like they are transferring dividends from savings.

[JayBird]

I think the key question is if the nature of your work requires or benefits from being in Thailand. For example, if your Tech support work could only be done if you are in Thailand (need meet clients locally, or require access to people or equipment located in Thailand) then you may require a work permit.

 

If your work benefits in no way from you being here and could equivalently be accomplished from any other county, then you may be ok.

 

Keep in mind, if you work as Tech support from home while living in the US you need a license or permit and to pay taxes. So there may be a similar concept but not something that is feasible to set up.

[FritsSikkink]

4 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That is not true. That is only for the changes put in place for migrant workers. The working alien act of 2008 is still in effect.

While I think you are right, not everybody says the same:

 

http://www.buriramtimes.com/latest-mate-nate-says-doesnt-work-permit-will-not-prosecuted/

[Flustered]

Digital Nomads seem to think themselves above all employment laws.

 

Spin however you like.

 

Where are you working? Answer..Thailand. 

Where is the money made? Answer..Does not matter, your body is situated and working in Thailand. 

 

Do not be surprised one day if the Thai authorities start jailing DNs who are working without permits.

[blorg]

4 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Do not be surprised one day if the Thai authorities start jailing DNs who are working without permits.

I'd be pretty surprised. Do they jail illegal English teachers? I thought they just threw them out, no? And even a formal deportation is far less likely than simply being denied entry and asked to go away.

 

I get that locking all these people up in the Bangkok Hilton is what you might LIKE to happen, but that doesn't mean it is very likely to happen, any more than it is likely Thailand is going to round up all the pensioners resident here but not paying Thai tax on their pensions (another "grey" area).

[perthperson]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

Digital Nomads seem to think themselves above all employment laws.

 

Spin however you like.

 

Where are you working? Answer..Thailand. 

Where is the money made? Answer..Does not matter, your body is situated and working in Thailand. 

 

Do not be surprised one day if the Thai authorities start jailing DNs who are working without permits.

They will not do that but they will squeeze them out by making visa exempt entries problematic (done),  removing double/triple entry TVs(done), ensuring back to back SETVs are increasingly difficult to obtain (work in progress) , improving  airport scrutiny/detection of suspected abusers of the system (work in progress)  and etc, etc ...

 

The digital pests easy life in the LOS is coming to an end ! 

[Flustered]

Just now, blorg said:

I'd be pretty surprised. Do they jail illegal English teachers? I thought they just threw them out, no? And even a formal deportation is far less likely than simply being denied entry and asked to go away.

 

I get that locking all these people up in the Bangkok Hilton is what you might LIKE to happen, but that doesn't mean it is very likely to happen, any more than it is likely Thailand is going to round up all the pensioners resident here but not paying Thai tax on their pensions (another "grey" area).

Teachers probably have work permits and no where did I mention that I wanted people locking up so do not put words in my mouth.

 

The way Thailand is going is pointing towards stiffer punishment for those breaking employment laws.

 

There is no "grey" area over pension payments in Thailand. The law is very clear, look it up rather than making wild sweeping statements.

[bkkcanuck8]

4 hours ago, ashnad836 said:

There are really 2 main ways broadly speaking.

 

1. affiliate marketers, ecommerce e.g. Amazon or shopify dropshipping,  bloggers. in this model you are effectively running a business. 

 

2. freelancers. in this model you are selling a service for your time. could be anything but Seo,  graphic design and web development etc are all popular.

 

in both categories there is a small percentage of people who are making decent money and a huge load who are making beer money.

Contract or freelance work.... you don't want any physical operations here so you cannot sell products that require you to ship....  In my case, I earn money developing software for banks and brokerages (not "web development" - minimum price for a system is millions of dollars).  No Thai operations, no Thai customers....  I actually remote into a computer in my home country and do the work there.  Most stuff like software development, admin, etc. can be done remotely from anywhere -- it is just up to the company that is using your services if they require you to be in the office or can work "from home".  IBM (up until recently when they changed the policy to do a stealth layoff) -- a sizeable portion of the company worked no where near the office.... though working for IBM would not be a good option since they have Thai operations.  The more in demand the services you provide, the greater your reputation is... the easier it is to be a digital nomad when it comes to software development.