Russians not paying maintenance fees - legal

[Blinky62]

We have one co-owner who stopped paying maintenance fees two yours ago (not a Russian) in protest because we voted to raise fees. Our Juristic person asked for advice from the Chiang Mai Land Office. She was told we could NOT shut off the water. Best to verify with your local office.
 
BTW, this owner apparently did not realize interest would be added to his debt. He now swears he will not pay it.

He will sell one day or die one or the other , and find his condo is worth nothing . Some one should explain that to him. He can not lease it either unless fees are paid .


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[Blinky62]

Not BS but think what you want if it makes you feel better.  And for that other poster, no I am not a realtor, but I suppose I could lose a pound or two.

Probably all state housing pomms too afraid to buy
The government is going to come and take it all away from me .


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[Blinky62]

Every single one of them! Not some...everyone of them. Value has been halved on many of the condos and they can't be sold at half the price. 
 
Buying a condo is big financial mistake. You're stuck with it. No one I know (after 8 years) would buy a condo in the Phuket market. The only ones buying are new naive people who don't know any better. 
 
New condos will drop 35% in value the day you move in. Value on older condos will continue to fall as these poorly built condos deteriorate. That and a hundred other reasons not to buy. Maybe they decide to put in pig farm next to you. Or you get the neighbors from hell. Way to many scenarios of these that can go disastrously wrong to ever take a chance on buying. The most likely thing to have happen is they tear down the condos next door and build another one. You're living in a construction site for years. Or the management company decides to stop doing anything...no money. Pool closes and never gets fixed. The owners and management go to war and end up in court for years. You name it, I've seen it. 
 
Invest your money outside the country and rent here. When the poop hits the fan...move, like I've done half a dozen times. I can't believe things are any different in Patts then Phuket and it's probably worse. This guy is either a realtor or he's trying to unload his "9th" condo. 

Such a sad life Why do you stay here?


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[inThailand]

I guess everyone has lost money selling a condo except the guy who claims he sold 16 condos all for a 30%+ net profit in the last six years, four of which have been crap. A troller for sure.

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, Blinky62 said:

In my complex ,you can not lease out a condo unless the fees are paid . And they won't sign the proof of residents certificate for immigration. Many ways to make them pay , unless of course it's empty. Like a previous reply said you can not transfer title until jurisic signs to say 1 year paid in advance .

 

Yours sounds like a particularly well run building. In mine (and in many others) no attempt is made to control or monitor rentals, we dont do residence certificates, and the debt-free certificate is only for due debts not future debts. And our JPM would probably sign anything in return for a packet of peanuts.

[KittenKong]

10 hours ago, stud858 said:

It would be good if the lawyer would just go ahead and book the court date but I'm thinking most lawyers would want to be certain of this letter by being involved in sending it. Can you recommend a no fuss lawyer?

 

I cant because I dont know the details of the one we spoke to. He did charge 500B for writing a form letter, and as I mentioned the same letter could be reused.

[inThailand]

4 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Yours sounds like a particularly well run building. In mine (and in many others) no attempt is made to control or monitor rentals, we dont do residence certificates, and the debt-free certificate is only for due debts not future debts. And our JPM would probably sign anything in return for a packet of peanuts.

I concur, why would the JP Mgr sign a residence certificate when they don't own a condo nor should they be renting them?

Yes, a debt free letter is for debts up to the date of the closing, the new owner is responsible for fees going forward. 

[newnative]

4 hours ago, inThailand said:

I guess everyone has lost money selling a condo except the guy who claims he sold 16 condos all for a 30%+ net profit in the last six years, four of which have been crap. A troller for sure.

       If you're going to slam me, at least get your facts right. I never said I made '30%+ net profit'.  Never.  And, it's seven years, not six.  I did say I averaged about 600,000 Baht in net profit per condo.  That's around $18,000--not a huge figure considering the amount of time and effort my partner and I put into selecting the condos and then designing and carrying out the renovations/changes that increased their value. 

      

[Pinot]

8 hours ago, Blinky62 said:

Such a sad life Why do you stay here?


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What are you talking about? I love it here. I'm carefree. I don't own a condo and never will. Cheap rent and with all the condo construction, it's about to get a lot cheaper. 

[Nook225]

9 hours ago, Blinky62 said:

In my complex ,you can not lease out a condo unless the fees are paid . And they won't sign the proof of residents certificate for immigration.

Where is that? How is juristic able  to stop a guy from renting out his apartment? 

Never heard juristic sign on a residence certificate. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by Nook225

[Henryford]

3 hours ago, Nook225 said:

Where is that? How is juristic able  to stop a guy from renting out his apartment? 

Never heard juristic sign on a residence certificate. 

In my condo there would be no water unless the fees are paid. So no defaulting owner could rent out.

[Peterw42]

2 minutes ago, Henryford said:

In my condo there would be no water unless the fees are paid. So no defaulting owner could rent out.

A little hard to enforce in the middle of a lease, the innocent tenant gets their water cut off.

[newnative]

3 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

A little hard to enforce in the middle of a lease, the innocent tenant gets their water cut off.

The tenant might suffer a bit but there's no free lunch.  If the owner's delinquent, especially for a number of months, the condo juristic needs to be tough.  At my last condo they cut off the water with delinquent owners and it was pretty effective--especially if there were tenants in place. 

 

[bazza73]

9 hours ago, newnative said:

       If you're going to slam me, at least get your facts right. I never said I made '30%+ net profit'.  Never.  And, it's seven years, not six.  I did say I averaged about 600,000 Baht in net profit per condo.  That's around $18,000--not a huge figure considering the amount of time and effort my partner and I put into selecting the condos and then designing and carrying out the renovations/changes that increased their value. 

      

What are the costs of your time and effort in selecting the condo? What is the average spend in refurbishing the condo? The renovations in my condo are usually 500,000 baht. That's stripping back to bare walls and floors, retiling, repainting and all new furnishings/fittings.

The only way I can see you doing this is in a condo that's high-end (4 - 5 million), and starting with a completely derelict apartment.

Even then, with the state of the market, 600K profit would not happen overnight, so there's an interest cost on the capital tied up.

 

I'd recommend you don't come to Chiang Mai. If you are making a living from flipping condos, you'd starve here.

[newnative]

2 hours ago, bazza73 said:

What are the costs of your time and effort in selecting the condo? What is the average spend in refurbishing the condo? The renovations in my condo are usually 500,000 baht. That's stripping back to bare walls and floors, retiling, repainting and all new furnishings/fittings.

The only way I can see you doing this is in a condo that's high-end (4 - 5 million), and starting with a completely derelict apartment.

Even then, with the state of the market, 600K profit would not happen overnight, so there's an interest cost on the capital tied up.

 

I'd recommend you don't come to Chiang Mai. If you are making a living from flipping condos, you'd starve here.

       Not making a living on the flips--it's more a hobby.  High-end in Pattaya is more like 7 to 10MB and up.  Here's a little of what my partner and I have learned, (sometimes the hard way),  doing flips in the USA and here. Not that we are experts, by any means.  Half the battle is selecting the right condo and it definitely can take some time.  If we were paying ourselves a salary our profit would be less--but doing the looking is something we enjoy doing.  We're in a beach community and we firmly  believe most condo buyers want to look at the ocean so we always, without fail, buy a condo with a seaview.  No exceptions.  Timing is important.  It seems like it's getting harder here to find a good condo to flip and we're getting a little burned out so I'm not sure how many more flips we will be doing.  

      We try to work with what we have whenever possible to keep costs down.  We have never gutted a bathroom and started over--but we always add a good, custom vanity with excellent storage--we hate clutter.  The smaller the condo, the more storage it should have.  We have gutted 3 kitchens here--all brand new.  Really hated knocking out new kitchens but they just didn't work.

     It's important not to get carried away and over-renovate and over-spend if you are doing a flip.  But, you don't want to do too little, either.  You're usually walking a fine line balancing how much you should spend with how much the condo can sell for relative to other similar condos in the complex, even assuming your condo will command a higher price. 

      We've never spent 500,00 Baht on a studio or 1 bedroom condo renovation--even the shells.   Most have been in the 250,00-300,000 Baht range, some less depending on what they already came with and the work that needed to be done.  The 2 bedrooms we have done here have been in the 400,000 to 500,000 Baht range. 

       We are living in the latest 2 bedroom and we brought our own art and some antique pieces. The condo came unfurnished and this renovation has cost 389,000 Baht and we are about done.  It helps that my partner is Thai and is good at negotiating prices and directing the workers--I definitely wouldn't be doing this on my own. 

[aussienam]

22 hours ago, Blinky62 said:

He will sell one day or die one or the other , and find his condo is worth nothing . Some one should explain that to him. He can not lease it either unless fees are paid .


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Would be good to read victory stories of condos being force sold after JPM have initiated court actions for unpaid fees. 

Edited August 16, 2017 by aussienam

[aussienam]

On 8/15/2017 at 1:55 PM, MaksimMislavsky said:

Being aware of the above about the authorities in their home country, most of non-paying Russian co-owners just won't give a hoot re the threat of any such complaint. Asset seizure is the only potentially productive coercion method I can think of (as a Russian myself), although hardly legally feasible in the case.

Thanks Maksim for your input as a Russian citizen. 

Asset seizure is therefore the only realistically absolute measure - and there is legislation in the Condominium Act to give the courts the authority to seize property, it's just the economic practicality of legal proceedings and the recouping that money.  I would like to see examples of court cases where assets have been seized.  

[aussienam]

On 8/13/2017 at 0:56 PM, Nook225 said:

Well, it is another 'Russian bashing' exercise, indeed, as there are far more nationalities who do not pay. In my condo - thais and a few English (Particulatty, New Castle) people who are always are on the non-payers list. However there some legitimate reason why Russians are in majour non-payers. 

As you have noticed, the major % ownership in almost any condo - Russian or CIS nationals (anyone ,who earns roubles)

 

Contemplating about Reasons for non-payment" - well, this is very simple to understand if a few powerful counties (and their co-called "allies", countries-sattelites or simply vassals) one day would turn agains one's country, employing all the possibilities to suffocate the economy,- then it won't take long to understand why.

Since Russian rouble plummeted half - I believe, what we see now is the best case scenario. It could be even worse. I do not really understand why russians still go abroad if it's now twice expensive for them. Shall they totally refrain from coming to Pattaya, the situation could be far worse.

 

I concieve, many people in Russia just lost their ability to pay. Some of them, however, even borrow to pay these useless, burdensome condos that they can't neither sell not rent out, because the intrinsic value of those is close to zero.The bubble is bursted. 

 

What legitimate solutions could be: just do not vote for those in your government, who are inherently dishonest, who had totaly lost sovereignty and now is forced to conduct policies which are against your interests. 

 

To be honest, there is no simple solution. Help them to rent out their apartments. If you got a friend who is looking for an accomondation - let them rent it from the guy who is in trouble so the proceeds could be used to pay maintenance. (the agreement must be established with the owner to appropriate those proceeds)

 

This has nothing in common with the truth and all the following conclusions, therefore, are misleading and false:

 

This resembles a good Fox News Saturday story as well as the following conclusions...

 

This, however, looks like to be a  somewhat reasonable :

 

All in all: the cheapes way to maintain your condo's balance is to make the assets work, that is to rent out (even at a discount) the apartments of underperforming accounts. Prior concent of the owner is required.

 

-----------

Went through the topic once, I noticed ppl are talking about the court of law as a remedy - my opinion - forget about that. First of all the costs of this transaction is extremely high, the process (as everything here) takes forever. Since there is no money to pay - nothing you can do. You can't even sell all those condo - no buyers ) There were this very russians who were buying, at most.

 

It's not another Russian bashing exercise.  If the condo was predominantly Australian for example and were not paying I would announce that it is Australians and wanting to understand why.  I do not care the nationality but yes it is mainly Russian co-owners here so that is just stating a fact.  I just want a solution. 

 

I sympathise with the Russian people that their economy has suffered.  But it does not absolve their responsibilities either.  The repercussions of their non-payments means that it affects the hundreds of other condo owners who could lose their money as well.  It's all about taking responsibility.  I don't care how it is done but I don't want my investment becoming worthless.  So if that means I offend some people then I do not care.  

 

If you claim the BBC news article is false, then please provide proof it is false.  Are you a legal authority?  If it was the case then the Russian government would have prudently responded to state that is was false.  One can logically conclude on various scenarios for reasons for non payment.  Even if the Rouble fell to half the value against the Thai Baht, the yearly maintenance fees would still be affordable in my opinion.  They are not exorbitant.  It is budget choices the Russian owners are making and the condo fees are not one of them.  So the question yet again is why not? I do not accept the Rouble halving as enough.  

 

You just claim it is some fanciful story probably implying that is was concocted by some sort of anti-Russian media spreading propaganda.  That is quite ridiculous if that is what you claim.  If anything it shows a Russian government taking positive steps to stabilise its economy and prevention of money laundering and related criminal activities.  This is a positive news story.  

 

I think I will take it upon myself to initiate contact with Russian and Thai authorities to gather facts.  Let's see what responsibilites they have agreed to adhere to as part of anti-money laundering.  This will be interesting. 

 

Your suggestion of helping out with finding tenants -  I had trouble renting my own condo.  There is a rental glut in Pattaya.  There is already heavy discounting.  But I see merit in your suggestion - offering rentals that is just enough to pay for maintenance fees - with an agreement that all rent collected is given to juristic.  So the tenant would only pay usual rates plus a very cheap rent - that could range from 1500 Baht to 3000 Baht per month rent where my condo is.  Maybe increase that to help start overdue amounts.  

 

For too long juristic condo management have been sitting on their hands doing nothing.  It seems people just shrug their shoulders and say it is all too hard and there is nothing they can do.  So let's all just go down with the sinking ship and accept defeat.  Oh, I will just lose my Millions of Baht and just feel sorry for the Russian people and think that is okay.  I don't think so. 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[Blinky62]

What are the costs of your time and effort in selecting the condo? What is the average spend in refurbishing the condo? The renovations in my condo are usually 500,000 baht. That's stripping back to bare walls and floors, retiling, repainting and all new furnishings/fittings.
The only way I can see you doing this is in a condo that's high-end (4 - 5 million), and starting with a completely derelict apartment.
Even then, with the state of the market, 600K profit would not happen overnight, so there's an interest cost on the capital tied up.
 
I'd recommend you don't come to Chiang Mai. If you are making a living from flipping condos, you'd starve here.

I spent 140,000 baht on my condo all new kitchen cabinets and new bathroom cabinets . Looks s million $'s


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[newnative]

6 hours ago, Blinky62 said:

I spent 140,000 baht on my condo all new kitchen cabinets and new bathroom cabinets . Looks s million $'s


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     Great!  Even after 7 years I'm still amazed at how economical having work done here is. One of my sisters just bought a condo in Virginia as a second home--probably around 120sqm.  She had an estimate done to have the interior painted.  $16,000!!!  I asked her if it was a typo and she said unfortunately, no.  I'm sure she was having everything painted--ceilings, walls, doors, and all the trim but still!  $16,000!   Needless to say, she is going to call a few more painters.

     To add salt to her wounds, I emailed her back and told her we just had our 2 bedroom condo wallpapered--living room/dining room, part of the kitchen, foyer/hallways, and both bedrooms.  Cost for everything including materials and labor--17,000 Baht including tip and some extra rolls of wallpaper.  $16,000 vs. around $500.  

[newnative]

8 hours ago, aussienam said:

It's not another Russian bashing exercise.  If the condo was predominantly Australian for example and were not paying I would announce that it is Australians and wanting to understand why.  I do not care the nationality but yes it is mainly Russian co-owners here so that is just stating a fact.  I just want a solution. 

 

I sympathise with the Russian people that their economy has suffered.  But it does not absolve their responsibilities either.  The repercussions of their non-payments means that it affects the hundreds of other condo owners who could lose their money as well.  It's all about taking responsibility.  I don't care how it is done but I don't want my investment becoming worthless.  So if that means I offend some people then I do not care.  

 

If you claim the BBC news article is false, then please provide proof it is false.  Are you a legal authority?  If it was the case then the Russian government would have prudently responded to state that is was false.  One can logically conclude on various scenarios for reasons for non payment.  Even if the Rouble fell to half the value against the Thai Baht, the yearly maintenance fees would still be affordable in my opinion.  They are not exorbitant.  It is budget choices the Russian owners are making and the condo fees are not one of them.  So the question yet again is why not? I do not accept the Rouble halving as enough.  

 

You just claim it is some fanciful story probably implying that is was concocted by some sort of anti-Russian media spreading propaganda.  That is quite ridiculous if that is what you claim.  If anything it shows a Russian government taking positive steps to stabilise its economy and prevention of money laundering and related criminal activities.  This is a positive news story.  

 

I think I will take it upon myself to initiate contact with Russian and Thai authorities to gather facts.  Let's see what responsibilites they have agreed to adhere to as part of anti-money laundering.  This will be interesting. 

 

Your suggestion of helping out with finding tenants -  I had trouble renting my own condo.  There is a rental glut in Pattaya.  There is already heavy discounting.  But I see merit in your suggestion - offering rentals that is just enough to pay for maintenance fees - with an agreement that all rent collected is given to juristic.  So the tenant would only pay usual rates plus a very cheap rent - that could range from 1500 Baht to 3000 Baht per month rent where my condo is.  Maybe increase that to help start overdue amounts.  

 

For too long juristic condo management have been sitting on their hands doing nothing.  It seems people just shrug their shoulders and say it is all too hard and there is nothing they can do.  So let's all just go down with the sinking ship and accept defeat.  Oh, I will just lose my Millions of Baht and just feel sorry for the Russian people and think that is okay.  I don't think so. 

 

 

 

  

 

 

Delinquent owners can come from anywhere.  The first condo my partner and I owned in Thailand was in Rayong and the vast majority of the owners were Thai.  There were only a handful of farangs at the condo--almost all renters.  Most of the owners were rich Bangkokians who bought the condos as weekend getaways.  Some did not pay their condo fees, even though they could easily afford them.  In this case, there wasn't a Russian in sight and the delinquents were almost all Thai.

[Henryford]

20 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

A little hard to enforce in the middle of a lease, the innocent tenant gets their water cut off.

Easy to enforce, we just turn off the water.

[KittenKong]

10 hours ago, aussienam said:

Your suggestion of helping out with finding tenants -  I had trouble renting my own condo.  There is a rental glut in Pattaya.  There is already heavy discounting.  But I see merit in your suggestion - offering rentals that is just enough to pay for maintenance fees - with an agreement that all rent collected is given to juristic.  So the tenant would only pay usual rates plus a very cheap rent - that could range from 1500 Baht to 3000 Baht per month rent where my condo is.

 

I dont think that it is legal for the juristic person to act as a rental agent, though I know that it happens in some buildings.

 

As a general rule the last thing you want is to encourage low rent tenants. Your building will soon become a ghetto if you do and you will drive the unit prices down also. For the benefit of the building you should always look to keeping rental prices as high as possible as this both reduces the number of rentals (which reduces wear and tear on the infrastructure) and, hopefully, also weeds out the worst tenants. And believe me: the worst tenants here really are bad.

[Nook225]

12 hours ago, aussienam said:

Your suggestion of helping out with finding tenants -  I had trouble renting my own condo.  There is a rental glut in Pattaya.  There is already heavy discounting.  But I see merit in your suggestion - offering rentals that is just enough to pay for maintenance fees - with an agreement that all rent collected is given to juristic.  So the tenant would only pay usual rates plus a very cheap rent - that could range from 1500 Baht to 3000 Baht per month rent where my condo is.  Maybe increase that to help start overdue amounts.

But then there will be even worse rates drop. Soon we gonna probably start to pay money ourselves to drag tenants in. 

[stud858]

Dear overdue coowner.

Non payment and no reply to this notice of non payment will be acknowledged as your acceptance to allow manager to rent out your room to recover costs.

Kindest regards.

JM.

Hey I think I was a condo manager in my previous life.

[aussienam]

On 8/18/2017 at 5:28 PM, stud858 said:

Dear overdue coowner.

Non payment and no reply to this notice of non payment will be acknowledged as your acceptance to allow manager to rent out your room to recover costs.

Kindest regards.

JM.

Hey I think I was a condo manager in my previous life.

Would be great if you could legally do that! But of course it would be breaking and entering/trespass and then there would be insurance liability issues - unless there was a by-law that everyone agreed on - which will never happen.  

[KittenKong]

On 17/08/2017 at 9:27 AM, newnative said:

Even after 7 years I'm still amazed at how economical having work done here is. One of my sisters just bought a condo in Virginia as a second home--probably around 120sqm.  She had an estimate done to have the interior painted.  $16,000!!!  I asked her if it was a typo and she said unfortunately, no.  I'm sure she was having everything painted--ceilings, walls, doors, and all the trim but still!  $16,000!   Needless to say, she is going to call a few more painters.

     To add salt to her wounds, I emailed her back and told her we just had our 2 bedroom condo wallpapered--living room/dining room, part of the kitchen, foyer/hallways, and both bedrooms.  Cost for everything including materials and labor--17,000 Baht including tip and some extra rolls of wallpaper.

 

Most quotes I get here are way over the top, and I find that the level of finish/workmanship is generally very poor. To the extent that I repainted my condo myself recently as it was the only way to get a good job done at a sensible price. Did I have a work permit for that? No.

[KittenKong]

5 hours ago, aussienam said:

Would be great if you could legally do that! But of course it would be breaking and entering/trespass and then there would be insurance liability issues - unless there was a by-law that everyone agreed on - which will never happen.  

 

Even if such an internal rule was voted in it would not be legal. The inside of each unit is private property.

[stud858]

20 hours ago, aussienam said:

Would be great if you could legally do that! But of course it would be breaking and entering/trespass and then there would be insurance liability issues - unless there was a by-law that everyone agreed on - which will nev

Last condo I was in had squatters that lived in the banks owned rooms. They paid the water and electric but not year fee and had free room. Gotta laugh. So much fun stuff.

[stud858]

19 hours ago, stud858 said:

Last condo I was in had squatters that lived in the banks owned rooms. They paid the water and electric but not year fee and had free room. Gotta laugh. So much fun stuff.

So having said that, how about...

Dear coowner, as you are an overdue coowner the juristic manager is unable to afford you the security services that you would normally get by paying the maintenance fee.

What this means is you are in danger of having someone squat in your room. Please be advised you are now solely responsible for the security of your room.

Kindest regards.

JM.