Russians not paying maintenance fees - legal

[inThailand]

For many offenders your rambling on is meaningless, cut their services and access to ca property and start the auction process. Then they make take notice!

They know they are in the land of hot air.

[csabo]

Long story short answer. Never buy. 

[stevew407]

Long story short answer. Never buy. 

Hearing this a lot. Catch 22. Beautiful Thai wife and family. Hmmmmm


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[newnative]

37 minutes ago, csabo said:

Long story short answer. Never buy. 

     Short story long answer.  If you are happy renting, by all means continue to rent.  I, myself, hate renting and living in someone else's usually poorly designed and decorated space--always feeling like I am visiting and having to be so careful not to damage any of the crappy furnishings.  And, then there is opening the window every month and throwing the month's rent out to the winds, benefiting me not at all.

     I've live in or owned in, let me see, 9 different condo projects in Pattaya.  I'm sure all of them had some delinquent owners, probably some more than others.  But, all of them were still being maintained nicely because, in the condos I have owned, the large majority were still paying their fees.  I can't think of any condo project that I have considered living in that has fallen into disrepair due to delinquent owners.

      I've gone back to visit condo complexes I used to own in 3, or 4, or more years ago and they are still being maintained--the pools are clean, the grounds are kept up, the hallways are clean, the elevators are working, gyms maintained, etc.  Delinquent owners not paying their fees is a problem--but not a big enough problem that it would stop me from buying a condo.

    I've been here 7 years.  If I had rented all that time, at, say 20,000 Baht a month, I would have thrown 1,680,000 Baht out that window I mentioned.  Instead, I've bought and have no regrets. Well, maybe a regret about not buying at least one more condo at The Base and Centric Sea.   And, maybe one or two more empty shells in foreign name at VT6 or 7 way back when. 

[impulse]

19 minutes ago, newnative said:

I've been here 7 years.  If I had rented all that time, at, say 20,000 Baht a month, I would have thrown 1,680,000 Baht out that window I mentioned.  Instead, I've bought and have no regrets.

 

And if you had taken that purchase money and invested it somewhere else, a lot of that 1.68MM baht would be in your portfolio in 7 years at a few %.

 

Rent vs buy can be an easy emotional decision, but it's rarely an easy economic decision based on so many factors.  The thing that makes buying in Thailand even more so is the added risks from issues just like this thread and the guys whose condos are being inundated with hotel guests, and all the other risks that go along with a legal system that has very little to do with protecting the rights of the little guy.

 

[newnative]

25 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

And if you had taken that purchase money and invested it somewhere else, a lot of that 1.68MM baht would be in your portfolio in 7 years at a few %.

 

Rent vs buy can be an easy emotional decision, but it's rarely an easy economic decision based on so many factors.  The thing that makes buying in Thailand even more so is the added risks from issues just like this thread and the guys whose condos are being inundated with hotel guests, and all the other risks that go along with a legal system that has very little to do with protecting the rights of the little guy.

 

     I figured someone would post how I could have made so much money if I had only invested the money I spent on the condo I bought in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, or whatever.  Good advice, for sure.  But, not my thing.  Renting is  torture for me and I would buy even if I thought I would only break even on the purchase, or perhaps lose some, although I've never lost money on selling a condo either here or in the US. 

     You're right about one thing--it's an emotional decision.    At my age, knowing my years are finite, I prefer to be happy in my own space that I own and can do with what I want.  It's a cliché, but life is indeed short and I will not spend my precious time squatting in someone else's space.  Actually, I felt the same when I was young.  But, as I said, if renting makes you happy, by all means rent.

    And, buying condos has worked out ok for me. In 7 years I have bought and sold 16 condos, 2 in Rayong and 14 in Pattaya.  Average profit is around 600,000 Baht after all expenses.  Could I have done much better if I had invested in financials?  Probably.  But, not my thing.

[inThailand]

1 hour ago, newnative said:

     I figured someone would post how I could have made so much money if I had only invested the money I spent on the condo I bought in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, or whatever.  Good advice, for sure.  But, not my thing.  Renting is  torture for me and I would buy even if I thought I would only break even on the purchase, or perhaps lose some, although I've never lost money on selling a condo either here or in the US. 

     You're right about one thing--it's an emotional decision.    At my age, knowing my years are finite, I prefer to be happy in my own space that I own and can do with what I want.  It's a cliché, but life is indeed short and I will not spend my precious time squatting in someone else's space.  Actually, I felt the same when I was young.  But, as I said, if renting makes you happy, by all means rent.

    And, buying condos has worked out ok for me. In 7 years I have bought and sold 16 condos, 2 in Rayong and 14 in Pattaya.  Average profit is around 600,000 Baht after all expenses.  Could I have done much better if I had invested in financials?  Probably.  But, not my thing.

BS! 

[JohnLick]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

And, buying condos has worked out ok for me. In 7 years I have bought and sold 16 condos, 2 in Rayong and 14 in Pattaya.  Average profit is around 600,000 Baht after all expenses.  Could I have done much better if I had invested in financials?  Probably.  But, not my thing.

So you make 1.3 million a year with your condo flipping in Thailand?

[inThailand]

1 minute ago, JohnLick said:

So you make 1.3 million a year with your condo flipping in Thailand?

Of couse he did! And hes a handsome fat bastard balding slop real estate agent.

[alex8912]

9 hours ago, Henryford said:

The moral of the story is don't buy into a unit which has a high non western ownership. Non payment of fees WILL be an issue.

 

9 hours ago, Henryford said:

The moral of the story is don't buy into a unit which has a high non western ownership. Non payment of fees WILL be an issue.

I thought all condo buildings had to have over 50% Thai owners so your theory is quite flawed. That means ALL condo buildings have a high non western ownership. 

Edited August 10, 2017 by alex8912

[bazza73]

1 hour ago, JohnLick said:

So you make 1.3 million a year with your condo flipping in Thailand?

Fishy smells don't only come from fish.

[inThailand]

8 minutes ago, bazza73 said:

Fishy smells don't only come from fish.

Let me guess... he has a prime money making condo that won't sell for sale? 

[zaZa9]

On 8/7/2017 at 6:28 PM, observer90210 said:

Know thy neighbours before getting into condo purchase....

 

Better of to buy a house, even on leasehold...you have less maintenance issues or surprises..

Dont agree at all. Houses usually have much greater maintenance issues than apartments , much more with private pool and gardens.

Usually a bigger investment to.

What happens if all the other home owners around are irresponsible as well ?

Noise , parking issues , burning off , illegal property uses ,  barking dogs ,  it goes on and on ...

Best to RENT.

If theres an issue -  you can move out !

Dont waste your holidays or retirement trying to fight people who have the authorities on their side , or simply are  never here !

[inThailand]

I love my condo! Can leave my windows and doors (with no bars) open 24x7, have services maintained for me, except electric, have no garden or real maintenance, have a pool, garage parking, etc and can lock and leave without a worry. And I actually own it unlike you home owners.

[newnative]

3 hours ago, inThailand said:

BS! 

Not BS but think what you want if it makes you feel better.  And for that other poster, no I am not a realtor, but I suppose I could lose a pound or two.

[inThailand]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

Not BS but think what you want if it makes you feel better.  And for that other poster, no I am not a realtor, but I suppose I could lose a pound or two.

Yes BS maak!

 

You say in some posts you have bought and sold 9 properties all for profit and then you say you rent.

Your full of s...!

 

[newnative]

2 hours ago, JohnLick said:

So you make 1.3 million a year with your condo flipping in Thailand?

That's probably the average over 7 years.  But, remember, there didn't use to be the large number of condos that we have now.   It use to be easy to buy a View Talay condo studio shell in foreign name for around 2MB, spend around 250,000 Baht to finish it, and easily sell it for around 3.3MB because 5 or 6 years ago there weren't as many highrise condos with seaviews.  7 of the condo flips were View Talays.  I'm sure there were lots of people doing the same thing and there wasn't anything remarkable about it.  It's more of a challenge now with lots more condos for sale and a changing buyer demographic--my last 4 buyers were Asian.

[inThailand]

Can someone help! Alot of smoke is being blown up the a...

[newnative]

33 minutes ago, inThailand said:

Yes BS maak!

 

You say in some posts you have bought and sold 9 properties all for profit and then you say you rent.

Your full of s...!

 

All my condos have sold for a profit, otherwise I wouldn't have sold them--what would be the purpose?   I don't remember ever mentioning the figure 9.  You are correct that I did say I rented for a year while my Centric Sea condo was being finished--you can rent and flip at the same time.

[Goethe]

During the past year I have been involved in pursuing legal redress against condo owners who gave not been paying their maintenance fees. Here are some facts:

1. The Condo Act (2008) prescribes interest penalties for accounts that are delinquent for more than 6 months. After 12 months the Act states that delinquent owners MUST pay interest of 20%.

2. The amount owing may be collected if the owner wishes to sell a unit: the "clearance certificate" (certifying that there are no outstanding  debts and necessary for the sale) is issued by the juristic person/Manager only after the debt has been paid. Of course, the Condominium may have wait for a number of years before a delinquent unit is sold.

3. Suing delinquent owners is both expensive and time-consuming. Depending on the amount of the annual condo maintenance fee, it may not be worthwhile suing a delinquent owners until after three or more years of non-payment. Legal fees are likely to be 20 000 baht per case.

4. The process is as follows: 1. Your lawyer sends a demand notice for the outstanding debt. The delinquent owner has 15 days to respond. 2. Failing a response from the owner, the lawyer sends a second, identical letter. 3. If the owner still does not respond, the lawyer files a lawsuit (filing fee: 2% of the debt). 4. The delinquent owner has 45 days to respond. 5. If there is still no response, two meetings are arranged with the judge, 30 days apart. These meetings are designed to reach a settlement (i.e. a payment schedule). 6. If no agreement is reached, the judge will order the unit to be sold at auction. 7. If the auction does not result in a sale, the judge may set a lower reserve price for the unit and order another auction.

5. Thus the entire process may take up to a year.

6. Clearly, the Condo Act is deficient in not containing provisions to enable a Condominium to collect outstanding maintenance fees without a lengthy and expensive legal process. Unscrupulous owners can exploit this weakness in the Act and not pay for several years (or ever!).

7. With regard to the suspension of services to delinquent owners, every Condo is different. In each case the Condo Committee will have to decide what is possible. 

 

[stud858]

10 hours ago, inThailand said:

I love my condo! Can leave my windows and doors (with no bars) open 24x7, have services maintained for me, except electric, have no garden or real maintenance, have a pool, garage parking, etc and can lock and leave without a worry. And I actually own it unlike you home owners.

I think so too. If I lower my shoulders and relax , buying a condo isn't  that horrible.

[stud858]

3 hours ago, Goethe said:

During the past year I have been involved in pursuing legal redress against condo owners who gave not been paying their maintenance fees. Here are some facts:

1. The Condo Act (2008) prescribes interest penalties for accounts that are delinquent for more than 6 months. After 12 months the Act states that delinquent owners MUST pay interest of 20%.

2. The amount owing may be collected if the owner wishes to sell a unit: the "clearance certificate" (certifying that there are no outstanding  debts and necessary for the sale) is issued by the juristic person/Manager only after the debt has been paid. Of course, the Condominium may have wait for a number of years before a delinquent unit is sold.

3. Suing delinquent owners is both expensive and time-consuming. Depending on the amount of the annual condo maintenance fee, it may not be worthwhile suing a delinquent owners until after three or more years of non-payment. Legal fees are likely to be 20 000 baht per case.

4. The process is as follows: 1. Your lawyer sends a demand notice for the outstanding debt. The delinquent owner has 15 days to respond. 2. Failing a response from the owner, the lawyer sends a second, identical letter. 3. If the owner still does not respond, the lawyer files a lawsuit (filing fee: 2% of the debt). 4. The delinquent owner has 45 days to respond. 5. If there is still no response, two meetings are arranged with the judge, 30 days apart. These meetings are designed to reach a settlement (i.e. a payment schedule). 6. If no agreement is reached, the judge will order the unit to be sold at auction. 7. If the auction does not result in a sale, the judge may set a lower reserve price for the unit and order another auction.

5. Thus the entire process may take up to a year.

6. Clearly, the Condo Act is deficient in not containing provisions to enable a Condominium to collect outstanding maintenance fees without a lengthy and expensive legal process. Unscrupulous owners can exploit this weakness in the Act and not pay for several years (or ever!).

7. With regard to the suspension of services to delinquent owners, every Condo is different. In each case the Condo Committee will have to decide what is possible. 

 

I've also heard from a juristic person going to court that the judge gave 2 years to settle the overdue amount and no interest at all was allowed by the judge. I guess judge trumps the law sometimes. The person strangely paid up his bill same day once he saw juristic was for real and didn't bother taking up the 2 year offer.

There's the matter of statute of limitation period too for bigger amounts. 

[Bung]

Quite simple, cut off the water and electricity to the condo.  This is quite standard procedure. A guy in my condo development had this happen to him and he's using candles and showering in the cleaners closet. 

[observer90210]

12 hours ago, zaZa9 said:

Dont agree at all. Houses usually have much greater maintenance issues than apartments , much more with private pool and gardens.

Usually a bigger investment to.

What happens if all the other home owners around are irresponsible as well ?

Noise , parking issues , burning off , illegal property uses ,  barking dogs ,  it goes on and on ...

Best to RENT.

If theres an issue -  you can move out !

Dont waste your holidays or retirement trying to fight people who have the authorities on their side , or simply are  never here !

My turn to say you have it all wrong!

Chose a proper developpment with civilised owners....unfortunately, the higher the price, the lower are your chances to bump in to colonies of drunk jerks who will make trouble...as for private pools and gardens, what is the problem if you have a private pool all for yourself at your own cost? Either you can afford it or not!!

What parking issues?  If each owner has his private parking in his villa???

But you have points in your post as many developpments have the isssues you have cited....wish you all the best in your stay in Thailand and take care.

 

[zaZa9]

29 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

My turn to say you have it all wrong!

Chose a proper developpment with civilised owners....unfortunately, the higher the price, the lower are your chances to bump in to colonies of drunk jerks who will make trouble...as for private pools and gardens, what is the problem if you have a private pool all for yourself at your own cost? Either you can afford it or not!!

What parking issues?  If each owner has his private parking in his villa???

But you have points in your post as many developpments have the isssues you have cited....wish you all the best in your stay in Thailand and take care.

 

I never said you " have it all wrong".

Thats not how I speak.

But I would question how you will know you have "civilised owners" as neighbours  in the development you choose?

Do you interview them all , or just believe the agents??

I have friends in good moo baans. 

Ones old lady neighbour left to live with her daughter , and that neighbouring house has never had a baht spent on it since , the pool is black , and the grass is 2 metres high. He says that snakes and vermin are becoming a problem.

A friend in a very nice moo baan in CM now wants to move , as a neighbour opposite , who is a politician , has a son who builds racing cars in their ever expanding ( piecemeal ) garage. He says engines scream and fumes belch , and NOBODY will complain about that one. He estimates his house may take 2 years to sell !

Its up to the individual , and while you are advocating spending a LOT , Im advocating never spending more than you can afford to lose in Thailand !

[maxpower]

4 hours ago, Bung said:

Quite simple, cut off the water and electricity to the condo.  This is quite standard procedure. A guy in my condo development had this happen to him and he's using candles and showering in the cleaners closet. 

From not paying service charge, a condo in my building has lost its water and electricity service even though they are private metered accounts.

The management refuse to allow the services to pass through shared public areas unless the condo owner pays to use the shared area.

Both electricity and water meters nave been removed from a shared area. How this was done with private meters I have no idea.

[Goethe]

4 hours ago, Bung said:

Quite simple, cut off the water and electricity to the condo.  This is quite standard procedure. A guy in my condo development had this happen to him and he's using candles and showering in the cleaners closet. 

In many cases (such as the 350 units in my Condominium) it is the condo occupant who has an account with the Electricity Authority, not the condo management. Thus the latter cannot cut off the electricity.

With regard to water: We cut off a unit's water supply, whereupon the owner went court -- and WON! The judge ruled: as long as the water bill was paid, the water supply must be maintained.

[stud858]

1 hour ago, Goethe said:

In many cases (such as the 350 units in my Condominium) it is the condo occupant who has an account with the Electricity Authority, not the condo management. Thus the latter cannot cut off the electricity.

With regard to water: We cut off a unit's water supply, whereupon the owner went court -- and WON! The judge ruled: as long as the water bill was paid, the water supply must be maintained.

I recommend in this case to play the game. Have the juristic "quietly" flick his breaker in the breaker room every day but when the owner complains about power outage let him know he'll have to deal with the problem himself as he had not paid juristic fees. Fight fire with fire.

Edited August 11, 2017 by stud858

[newnative]

34 minutes ago, stud858 said:

I recommend in this case to play the game. Have the juristic "quietly" flick his breaker in the breaker room every day but when the owner complains about power outage let him know he'll have to deal with the problem himself as he had not paid juristic fees. Fight fire with fire.

Agree.  And if the case can be appealed to a higher court I would do that, too.  And, since he is not paying his common fees I would ban him from using the pool, the elevators, the parking, gym, etc.

[observer90210]

6 hours ago, zaZa9 said:

I never said you " have it all wrong".

Thats not how I speak.

But I would question how you will know you have "civilised owners" as neighbours  in the development you choose?

Do you interview them all , or just believe the agents??

I have friends in good moo baans. 

Ones old lady neighbour left to live with her daughter , and that neighbouring house has never had a baht spent on it since , the pool is black , and the grass is 2 metres high. He says that snakes and vermin are becoming a problem.

A friend in a very nice moo baan in CM now wants to move , as a neighbour opposite , who is a politician , has a son who builds racing cars in their ever expanding ( piecemeal ) garage. He says engines scream and fumes belch , and NOBODY will complain about that one. He estimates his house may take 2 years to sell !

Its up to the individual , and while you are advocating spending a LOT , Im advocating never spending more than you can afford to lose in Thailand !

A sensible move, for instance could be to first rent a place in an area targetted for purchase, Many developpments that sell homes also do have some to rent. The odds of running into noisy or vindicative trouble with neighbours also arises depending on the city in which you live. The patrons in homes in party towns for instance may not be the same as those in more laid back towns. No golden rule however as it remains a bit of a lottery. But if you do a minimum of your homework with some common sense, one could avoid certain issues in the future. Afterwards it's all a matter of luck, how to talk to people and if you have the ability to dialogue in case of trouble. No hard feelings, take care.