Russians not paying maintenance fees - legal

[elgenon]

Many Russians bought properties in Thailand and America to launder money.

 

 

[Pinot]

On 8/10/2017 at 7:00 PM, newnative said:

     I figured someone would post how I could have made so much money if I had only invested the money I spent on the condo I bought in stocks, bonds, mutual funds, or whatever.  Good advice, for sure.  But, not my thing.  Renting is  torture for me and I would buy even if I thought I would only break even on the purchase, or perhaps lose some, although I've never lost money on selling a condo either here or in the US. 

     You're right about one thing--it's an emotional decision.    At my age, knowing my years are finite, I prefer to be happy in my own space that I own and can do with what I want.  It's a cliché, but life is indeed short and I will not spend my precious time squatting in someone else's space.  Actually, I felt the same when I was young.  But, as I said, if renting makes you happy, by all means rent.

    And, buying condos has worked out ok for me. In 7 years I have bought and sold 16 condos, 2 in Rayong and 14 in Pattaya.  Average profit is around 600,000 Baht after all expenses.  Could I have done much better if I had invested in financials?  Probably.  But, not my thing.

Everyone I know has either sold or wishes they could. So far underwater they have no choice but to stay.

 

[csabo]

On 8/10/2017 at 5:28 PM, newnative said:

     Short story long answer.  If you are happy renting, by all means continue to rent.  I, myself, hate renting and living in someone else's usually poorly designed and decorated space--always feeling like I am visiting and having to be so careful not to damage any of the crappy furnishings.  And, then there is opening the window every month and throwing the month's rent out to the winds, benefiting me not at all.

     I've live in or owned in, let me see, 9 different condo projects in Pattaya.  I'm sure all of them had some delinquent owners, probably some more than others.  But, all of them were still being maintained nicely because, in the condos I have owned, the large majority were still paying their fees.  I can't think of any condo project that I have considered living in that has fallen into disrepair due to delinquent owners.

      I've gone back to visit condo complexes I used to own in 3, or 4, or more years ago and they are still being maintained--the pools are clean, the grounds are kept up, the hallways are clean, the elevators are working, gyms maintained, etc.  Delinquent owners not paying their fees is a problem--but not a big enough problem that it would stop me from buying a condo.

    I've been here 7 years.  If I had rented all that time, at, say 20,000 Baht a month, I would have thrown 1,680,000 Baht out that window I mentioned.  Instead, I've bought and have no regrets. Well, maybe a regret about not buying at least one more condo at The Base and Centric Sea.   And, maybe one or two more empty shells in foreign name at VT6 or 7 way back when. 

Renting is not throwing away money.  It gives you power and until you sell you have thrown your money away as well.  Assuming the market will increase and assuming you can find a buyer is a big assumption. For every guy who bought and had no problem there are a hundred who bought and regret it.  Never buy never buy never buy.  Look at the comment above me as a source.

Edited August 12, 2017 by csabo

[newnative]

4 hours ago, Pinot said:

Everyone I know has either sold or wishes they could. So far underwater they have no choice but to stay.

 

      Interesting that everyone you know wishes they could sell their condos but they are 'so far underwater' that they have to stay.  That has not been my experience with owning at 9 different condo projects in Pattaya.  I'm curious what condo complexes they are living at that have lost so much value? 

       

[newnative]

10 hours ago, csabo said:

Renting is not throwing away money.  It gives you power and until you sell you have thrown your money away as well.  Assuming the market will increase and assuming you can find a buyer is a big assumption. For every guy who bought and had no problem there are a hundred who bought and regret it.  Never buy never buy never buy.  Look at the comment above me as a source.

I'd have to disagree about renting giving me power.  The year I rented while waiting for  a condo to be finished I felt pretty darn powerless--couldn't do a thing with the condo since I didn't own it.  I'd also disagree with your statistic regarding 100 buyers out of 101 regretting a property purchase.  Is that a real statistic or did you pull it out of thin air?  All of my friends--none in the property business, most retired--own either a condo or house through company purchase and I don't think any of them regret their purchase--some own several properties.  But, as I said in my second sentence, if you are happy renting, by all means continue to do so. Whatever floats your boat.

[csabo]

3 hours ago, newnative said:

I'd have to disagree about renting giving me power.  The year I rented while waiting for  a condo to be finished I felt pretty darn powerless--couldn't do a thing with the condo since I didn't own it.  I'd also disagree with your statistic regarding 100 buyers out of 101 regretting a property purchase.  Is that a real statistic or did you pull it out of thin air?  All of my friends--none in the property business, most retired--own either a condo or house through company purchase and I don't think any of them regret their purchase--some own several properties.  But, as I said in my second sentence, if you are happy renting, by all means continue to do so. Whatever floats your boat.

You also live in Patts so your perspective about what's good and bad are obviously skewed.  Seems to me if you owned 9 condos in one location you left them all for a reason.  Whatever.  Do with you want with your money but don't come on here painting rainbows when everyone knows the hazards or buying in Thailand are extremely real.

[newnative]

10 minutes ago, csabo said:

You also live in Patts so your perspective about what's good and bad are obviously skewed.  Seems to me if you owned 9 condos in one location you left them all for a reason.  Whatever.  Do with you want with your money but don't come on here painting rainbows when everyone knows the hazards or buying in Thailand are extremely real.

Hmm. So living in Pattaya gives me an 'obviously skewed' perspective.  That's a new one--and yet another burden we poor, miserable Pattayans have to carry.  Oh, the humanity.  Your 'skewed' perspective dig might make, perhaps, a tiny bit of sense if we were talking about something like city nightlife but real estate?  Fail to see the connection.  The reason I left the condos is I sold them for a profit.  Despite the negative postings, it actually is possible to buy a condo in Pattaya and resell it, at a profit.  I'm not painting rainbows, just offering another viewpoint on my experiences, as you have on yours.  I assume I am allowed to do that, even as a 'skewed' Pattayan. 

[Nook225]

Well, it is another 'Russian bashing' exercise, indeed, as there are far more nationalities who do not pay. In my condo - thais and a few English (Particulatty, New Castle) people who are always are on the non-payers list. However there some legitimate reason why Russians are in majour non-payers. 

As you have noticed, the major % ownership in almost any condo - Russian or CIS nationals (anyone ,who earns roubles)

 

Contemplating about Reasons for non-payment" - well, this is very simple to understand if a few powerful counties (and their co-called "allies", countries-sattelites or simply vassals) one day would turn agains one's country, employing all the possibilities to suffocate the economy,- then it won't take long to understand why.

Since Russian rouble plummeted half - I believe, what we see now is the best case scenario. It could be even worse. I do not really understand why russians still go abroad if it's now twice expensive for them. Shall they totally refrain from coming to Pattaya, the situation could be far worse.

 

I concieve, many people in Russia just lost their ability to pay. Some of them, however, even borrow to pay these useless, burdensome condos that they can't neither sell not rent out, because the intrinsic value of those is close to zero.The bubble is bursted. 

 

What legitimate solutions could be: just do not vote for those in your government, who are inherently dishonest, who had totaly lost sovereignty and now is forced to conduct policies which are against your interests. 

 

To be honest, there is no simple solution. Help them to rent out their apartments. If you got a friend who is looking for an accomondation - let them rent it from the guy who is in trouble so the proceeds could be used to pay maintenance. (the agreement must be established with the owner to appropriate those proceeds)

 

Quote

An interesting discussion with juristic management and subsequent researching online has revealed that in Russia there are severe penalties for Russians sending money overseas unless it is through a Russian bank account.  The penalties range from 50% to 75% of the transferred amount and are a result of the government clamping down on the exodus of money from Russia.  

This has nothing in common with the truth and all the following conclusions, therefore, are misleading and false:

 

Quote

One can draw a conclusion that the initial purchase of the condo by the Russian investor was made by improper and/or illegal means in that the money was sent over in an undisclosed account or other money transfer facility, through a third party, via another country or it was brought over in cash or other valuable tangible form.  Tax evasion, money laundering and citizens just wanting a safe haven from the Russian economy come to mind as reasons why Russian citizens would opt for these methods.  

This resembles a good Fox News Saturday story as well as the following conclusions...

 

This, however, looks like to be a  somewhat reasonable :

Quote

 

I do understand as well that the Ruble-Baht exchange rate is not as attractive as it was prior to its crash.  This would impact on owners deciding on paying maintenance fees. 

 

 

All in all: the cheapes way to maintain your condo's balance is to make the assets work, that is to rent out (even at a discount) the apartments of underperforming accounts. Prior concent of the owner is required.

 

-----------

Went through the topic once, I noticed ppl are talking about the court of law as a remedy - my opinion - forget about that. First of all the costs of this transaction is extremely high, the process (as everything here) takes forever. Since there is no money to pay - nothing you can do. You can't even sell all those condo - no buyers ) There were this very russians who were buying, at most.

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Nook225

[blackcab]

9 hours ago, Nook225 said:

You can't even sell all those condo - no buyers

 

There are always buyers at the right price. It's simply that the right price is often unpalatable for the vendor.

[stud858]

11 hours ago, Nook225 said:

Well, it is another 'Russian bashing' exercise, indeed, as there are far more nationalities who do not pay. In my condo - thais and a few English (Particulatty, New Castle) people who are always are on the non-payers list. However there some legitimate reason why Russians are in majour non-payers. 

As you have noticed, the major % ownership in almost any condo - Russian or CIS nationals (anyone ,who earns roubles)

 

Contemplating about Reasons for non-payment" - well, this is very simple to understand if a few powerful counties (and their co-called "allies", countries-sattelites or simply vassals) one day would turn agains one's country, employing all the possibilities to suffocate the economy,- then it won't take long to understand why.

Since Russian rouble plummeted half - I believe, what we see now is the best case scenario. It could be even worse. I do not really understand why russians still go abroad if it's now twice expensive for them. Shall they totally refrain from coming to Pattaya, the situation could be far worse.

 

I concieve, many people in Russia just lost their ability to pay. Some of them, however, even borrow to pay these useless, burdensome condos that they can't neither sell not rent out, because the intrinsic value of those is close to zero.The bubble is bursted. 

 

What legitimate solutions could be: just do not vote for those in your government, who are inherently dishonest, who had totaly lost sovereignty and now is forced to conduct policies which are against your interests. 

 

To be honest, there is no simple solution. Help them to rent out their apartments. If you got a friend who is looking for an accomondation - let them rent it from the guy who is in trouble so the proceeds could be used to pay maintenance. (the agreement must be established with the owner to appropriate those proceeds)

 

This has nothing in common with the truth and all the following conclusions, therefore, are misleading and false:

 

This resembles a good Fox News Saturday story as well as the following conclusions...

 

This, however, looks like to be a  somewhat reasonable :

 

All in all: the cheapes way to maintain your condo's balance is to make the assets work, that is to rent out (even at a discount) the apartments of underperforming accounts. Prior concent of the owner is required.

 

-----------

Went through the topic once, I noticed ppl are talking about the court of law as a remedy - my opinion - forget about that. First of all the costs of this transaction is extremely high, the process (as everything here) takes forever. Since there is no money to pay - nothing you can do. You can't even sell all those condo - no buyers ) There were this very russians who were buying, at most.

 

Yes. Great idea. Those overdue and not living in their condo. Rent them out. Again, fight fire with fire. Takes a tough juristic person though and sadly I have ever only come across one person to do a tough hard line approach. I call him Super Falang.

[scubascuba3]

Reading the whole thread it appears cutting off elec and water isn't legal. But the person not paying maintenance is not wanting to spend money so i would cut him off then its up to him to spend money on legal help which he won't want to do.

Take the risk and cut them off.

[inThailand]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

Reading the whole thread it appears cutting off elec and water isn't legal. But the person not paying maintenance is not wanting to spend money so i would cut him off then its up to him to spend money on legal help which he won't want to do.

Take the risk and cut them off.

This could be very effective especially if owner or renter occupied. 

[Nook225]

7 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Reading the whole thread it appears cutting off elec and water isn't legal. But the person not paying maintenance is not wanting to spend money so i would cut him off then its up to him to spend money on legal help which he won't want to do.

Take the risk and cut them off.

The problem is that most of them want but can not.  I have never seen otherwise situation(working in real estate since 2014).

[Nook225]

9 hours ago, stud858 said:

Yes. Great idea. Those overdue and not living in their condo. Rent them out. Again, fight fire with fire. Takes a tough juristic person though and sadly I have ever only come across one person to do a tough hard line approach. I call him Super Falang.

One can fight them or even execute; the thing is that they do not have money and as they earn roubles this simply means that they will have to pay twice (in terms of rub -  thai baht rate). So let's say if you own 63 sqm and pay 45 THB per sqm - you come up with 34020 THB or 68040 RUB per year, which is sort of significant amount for a siberian high school single mother-of-two math teacher. I know... I know... then she had not to purchase it if she can't afford it. But who knew 3 years ago, that the whole world would turn upside down with all the Brexit, Cremea and the rest...

 

Just make an agreemen with owners to transfer their condos under juristic (ir its partners) management and rent them out (at a discount , if urgently). But there must be noted that, even if it is a forced measure, managing entity is in charge of safety of the property. So be aware, if you renting out someone's apartment at a discount to chinese (for example) or another guys  - make sure they do not ruin the place.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Nook225

[Nook225]

7 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Reading the whole thread it appears cutting off elec and water isn't legal

In my opinion, It is illegal and for him/her it would be very cheap to find a solution, just simply calling a police and checking CCTV. 

Applicable charges may include (but not limited by): hooliganism; trespassing (Since the electric and water meters are property of its owner).

[blackcab]

8 hours ago, Nook225 said:

Since the electric and water meters are property of its owner

 

If the meter is installed by the MEA/PEA or MWA/PWA the meter belongs to the Authority, not the condo owner.

 

This is why the Authority can remove a meter for non-payment.

[MaksimMislavsky]

On 10.08.2017 at 3:04 PM, KittenKong said:

On 10.08.2017 at 2:05 PM, MaksimMislavsky said:

Nope. Russian authorities are too busy minding their own business. Any such complaints from abroad will most likely be brushed off as mere nuisance. Unless a person owns dozens of units so a good shakedown could be expected. 

 

You miss the point. The idea is not to actually make a complaint (which would be fairly pointless as you mention) but to get the co-owners to think that a complaint will be made if they dont pay up.

Being aware of the above about the authorities in their home country, most of non-paying Russian co-owners just won't give a hoot re the threat of any such complaint. Asset seizure is the only potentially productive coercion method I can think of (as a Russian myself), although hardly legally feasible in the case.

[Pinot]

On 8/13/2017 at 0:39 AM, newnative said:

      Interesting that everyone you know wishes they could sell their condos but they are 'so far underwater' that they have to stay.  That has not been my experience with owning at 9 different condo projects in Pattaya.  I'm curious what condo complexes they are living at that have lost so much value? 

       

Every single one of them! Not some...everyone of them. Value has been halved on many of the condos and they can't be sold at half the price. 

 

Buying a condo is big financial mistake. You're stuck with it. No one I know (after 8 years) would buy a condo in the Phuket market. The only ones buying are new naive people who don't know any better. 

 

New condos will drop 35% in value the day you move in. Value on older condos will continue to fall as these poorly built condos deteriorate. That and a hundred other reasons not to buy. Maybe they decide to put in pig farm next to you. Or you get the neighbors from hell. Way to many scenarios of these that can go disastrously wrong to ever take a chance on buying. The most likely thing to have happen is they tear down the condos next door and build another one. You're living in a construction site for years. Or the management company decides to stop doing anything...no money. Pool closes and never gets fixed. The owners and management go to war and end up in court for years. You name it, I've seen it. 

 

Invest your money outside the country and rent here. When the poop hits the fan...move, like I've done half a dozen times. I can't believe things are any different in Patts then Phuket and it's probably worse. This guy is either a realtor or he's trying to unload his "9th" condo. 

[newnative]

4 minutes ago, Pinot said:

Every single one of them! Not some...everyone of them. Value has been halved on many of the condos and they can't be sold at half the price. 

 

Buying a condo is big financial mistake. You're stuck with it. No one I know (after 8 years) would buy a condo in the Phuket market. The only ones buying are new naive people who don't know any better. 

 

New condos will drop 35% in value the day you move in. Value on older condos will continue to fall as these poorly built condos deteriorate. That and a hundred other reasons not to buy. Maybe they decide to put in pig farm next to you. Or you get the neighbors from hell. Way to many scenarios of these that can go disastrously wrong to ever take a chance on buying. The most likely thing to have happen is they tear down the condos next door and build another one. You're living in a construction site for years. Or the management company decides to stop doing anything...no money. Pool closes and never gets fixed. The owners and management go to war and end up in court for years. You name it, I've seen it. 

 

Invest your money outside the country and rent here. When the poop hits the fan...move, like I've done half a dozen times. I can't believe things are any different in Patts then Phuket and it's probably worse. This guy is either a realtor or he's trying to unload his "9th" condo. 

I was going to invite all your friends who have condos that have lost half their value to private message me--I would be interested in any highrise, seaview condos in foreign name that have lost half their value.  Then I noticed that you are posting from Phuket.  Perhaps things are bad there but I don't think many Pattaya condos have lost half their value--certainly none of the highrise seaview projects that I have owned condos at. 

[KittenKong]

4 hours ago, MaksimMislavsky said:

Being aware of the above about the authorities in their home country, most of non-paying Russian co-owners just won't give a hoot re the threat of any such complaint.

 

That may be so, but to send a threatening letter to co-owners would cost just a few Baht each, so I would be inclined to try it first. Who knows how effective it may be?

 

 

4 hours ago, MaksimMislavsky said:

Asset seizure is the only potentially productive coercion method I can think of (as a Russian myself), although hardly legally feasible in the case.

 

It is very feasible (depending on the amount of the debt), but time-consuming and expensive. So a last resort, I think. Though it could also be included as another threat in the letter I described.

 

Edited August 15, 2017 by KittenKong

[KittenKong]

14 minutes ago, newnative said:

I was going to invite all your friends who have condos that have lost half their value to private message me--I would be interested in any highrise, seaview condos in foreign name that have lost half their value.  Then I noticed that you are posting from Phuket.  Perhaps things are bad there but I don't think many Pattaya condos have lost half their value--certainly none of the highrise seaview projects that I have owned condos at. 

 

I know people in Phuket and in Pattaya who have lost money in Baht terms (even on nice units with sea views) but most have broken even or made a profit when exchange rate fluctuations are taken into account. However I dont think that it is reasonable to take such fluctuations into account as the same benefit could have been achieved with a simple bank deposit.

[newnative]

7 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

I know people in Phuket and in Pattaya who have lost money in Baht terms (even on nice units with sea views) but most have broken even or made a profit when exchange rate fluctuations are taken into account. However I dont think that it is reasonable to take such fluctuations into account as the same benefit could have been achieved with a simple bank deposit.

Possibly, but half their value as Pinot claims?  I doubt it.  But, anybody who has a seaview highrise condo in Pattaya, Jomtien, or Wongamat in foreign name, that has actually lost half its value and wants to unload it, feel free to PM me and I'll consider it.  At this point I am mostly interested in 2 bedroom/2 bath.

[MaksimMislavsky]

29 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

depending on the amount of the debt), but time-consuming and expensive

exactly for the very three reasons above, asset seizure in case of non-payment of maintenance fees appears to be theoretically possible, but hardly a feasible solution. 

[stud858]

34 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

That may be so, but to send a threatening letter to co-owners would cost just a few Baht each, so I would be inclined to try it first. Who knows how effective it may be?

 

 

 

It is very feasible (depending on the amount of the debt), but time-consuming and expensive. So a last resort, I think. Though it could also be included as another threat in the letter I described.

 

Please be careful of the so called lawyer letters. My juristic indebted my condo 2000 baht per letter. And nothing ever eventuated. Grafting was the incentive. It's all about the juristic person. An honest hard working determined  one will get the job done. 

[KittenKong]

6 minutes ago, MaksimMislavsky said:

exactly for the very three reasons above, asset seizure in case of non-payment of maintenance fees appears to be theoretically possible, but hardly a feasible solution. 

 

I know buildings that have done it. It was no big deal though it took several months. It is the only final solution.

[KittenKong]

6 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Please be careful of the so called lawyer letters. My juristic indebted my condo 2000 baht per letter. And nothing ever eventuated. Grafting was the incentive. It's all about the juristic person. An honest hard working determined  one will get the job done. 

 

2000B for a letter is ridiculous, besides which it doesnt need to be sent by a lawyer. The building can send it. And if multiple co-owners are in breach then only one template letter is required, with the names and amounts changed for each copy of course.

 

The lawyer was probably your JPM's brother. Trust no one.

[KittenKong]

20 minutes ago, newnative said:

Possibly, but half their value as Pinot claims?  I doubt it. 

 

I have definitely seen units for sale at half what they originally cost. Not many, and not in the best locations, but I have seen them. However not everyone does buy in the best location, for whatever reason, and for the purposes of discussion the market has to be considered as a whole I think.

[stud858]

5 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

2000B for a letter is ridiculous, besides which it doesnt need to be sent by a lawyer. The building can send it. And if multiple co-owners are in breach then only one template letter is required, with the names and amounts changed for each copy of course.

 

The lawyer was probably your JPM's brother. Trust no one.

It would be good if the lawyer would just go ahead and book the court date but I'm thinking most lawyers would want to be certain of this letter by being involved in sending it. Can you recommend a no fuss lawyer?

[THAILIBAN]

5 hours ago, stud858 said:

It would be good if the lawyer would just go ahead and book the court date but I'm thinking most lawyers would want to be certain of this letter by being involved in sending it. Can you recommend a no fuss lawyer?

 

 

maybe ask one of the reputable real estate agencies ?

For example Mr. Heiner at Siam Properties, arguably one of Thailand's most reputable agents.

He regularly gives speeches at several of Pattaya's Expat Clubs, for example.

I am sure if you ask him nicely, he could name a few reputable no-fuss lawyers:

http://www.siamproperties.net/About-Us/2917

 

[Blinky62]

Thank you very much for the great advice.  Some very good points to follow up here.  They are as I believe already adding interest to unpaid debts but not chasing it up unless there is a sale.  But now you have detailed how a court can force a sale.  Plus all the other very valid info,  Thanks again.  

In my complex ,you can not lease out a condo unless the fees are paid . And they won't sign the proof of residents certificate for immigration. Many ways to make them pay , unless of course it's empty. Like a previous reply said you can not transfer title until jurisic signs to say 1 year paid in advance .


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app