Myanmar men appeal against death sentences over British murders in Thailand

[tigermoth]

A total savage miscarry of procedure and justice. Whether these two are guilty or not the evidence to convict them was entirely missing or corrupted. It is a sad truth but in Thailand, as in many other countries ruled by despotic governments tou are guilty until proven innocent.

[xylophone]

2 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I have yet to see any Rock Solid Evidence, like a Good Alibi, which doesn't place them at the scene of the crime on the time and night it happened, or anything solid proof it was not them.

Like you I have followed this from the very beginning and there is absolutely no rocksolid evidence which suggests they are guilty.

 

None of their DNA on the murder weapon, nothing attributed to them as to how poor David had multiple stab wounds in his head, no mention of them meeting the British couple at any time that evening, no samples of DNA which can be tested by an independent authority to prove guilt or otherwise and no professionally recognised watertight process followed in the collection of evidence during the investigation.

 

The only thing against them is some cigarette butts which they may have smoked on the beach that evening and discarded.

 

In any civilised country this case would have never got to court, as it is "face", money, power and contacts won the day, as they always do in Thailand.

[transam]

10 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Like you I have followed this from the very beginning and there is absolutely no rocksolid evidence which suggests they are guilty.

 

None of their DNA on the murder weapon, nothing attributed to them as to how poor David had multiple stab wounds in his head, no mention of them meeting the British couple at any time that evening, no samples of DNA which can be tested by an independent authority to prove guilt or otherwise and no professionally recognised watertight process followed in the collection of evidence during the investigation.

 

The only thing against them is some cigarette butts which they may have smoked on the beach that evening and discarded.

 

In any civilised country this case would have never got to court, as it is "face", money, power and contacts won the day, as they always do in Thailand.

Lesson for all, do not leave fag butts on a beach...

[GOLDBUGGY]

14 minutes ago, xylophone said:

Like you I have followed this from the very beginning and there is absolutely no rocksolid evidence which suggests they are guilty.

 

None of their DNA on the murder weapon, nothing attributed to them as to how poor David had multiple stab wounds in his head, no mention of them meeting the British couple at any time that evening, no samples of DNA which can be tested by an independent authority to prove guilt or otherwise and no professionally recognised watertight process followed in the collection of evidence during the investigation.

 

The only thing against them is some cigarette butts which they may have smoked on the beach that evening and discarded.

 

In any civilised country this case would have never got to court, as it is "face", money, power and contacts won the day, as they always do in Thailand.

Oh Yeah! The Old Famous Plea of nNo Finger Prints on the Weapon, where a 5 year old is smart enough to know to wipe them off after using the gun. 

 

Or that old "No Proof" of them ever meeting them on the beach that night, when they admitted to being there all night, and even going for a swim later, and even finding David Millers Black Sun Glasses, in the dark on the beach, and yet the crime scene was only 50 meters away. But yet claiming they never saw them. 

 

Or that these DNA Standards, don't meet the Best World Standards, but yet not proof any of there DNA was tampered with, or was faulsified. 

 

Yeah! I already heard this old news many times, which prvoves nothing. I am still waiting for Rock Solid Evidence, like a decent alibi!

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

I have followed this case from the very begining, like many other people here. I have heard countless times these guys are innocent of this crime. Claims of DNA being tampered or falsified with no proof other than them saying they wanted them as scapegoats. Young Boys are innocent becasue they look innocent. Are too small to hit some bigger guy with a hoe, even when it would be 2 against one. And so on! 

 

I have yet to see any Rock Solid Evidence, like a Good Alibi, which doesn't place them at the scene of the crime on the time and night it happened, or anything solid proof it was not them. But I have seen plenty to not only suggest but indicate with certainty, it was them! 

Maybe a revisit of the court evidence and judgement

In court it is claimed that the dna analyses started at 8:00am , but the autopsy commenced at 11:00.

From the court judgement, it was only as the result of the autopsy that it was decided to take semen samples.

[balo]

This thread is about stopping the death sentence snd I hope they suceed with that. But discussing the same topic over and over again if they are guilty or not will lead to nowwhere here on TV.

[rockingrobin]

7 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Oh Yeah! The Old Famous Plea of nNo Finger Prints on the Weapon, where a 5 year old is smart enough to know to wipe them off after using the gun. 

 

Or that old "No Proof" of them ever meeting them on the beach that night, when they admitted to being there all night, and even going for a swim later, and even finding David Millers Black Sun Glasses, in the dark on the beach, and yet the crime scene was only 50 meters away. But yet claiming they never saw them. 

 

Or that these DNA Standards, don't meet the Best World Standards, but yet not proof any of there DNA was tampered with, or was faulsified. 

 

Yeah! I already heard this old news many times, which prvoves nothing. I am still waiting for Rock Solid Evidence, like a decent alibi!

Even the court judgement acknowledges that no chain of custody was provided

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 minute ago, rockingrobin said:

Even the court judgement acknowledges that no chain of custody was provided

So why have they lost there Court Case, there Appeal, and now fighting the Death Sentence?

 

Which some in the Know knew a very long time ago that it was would lead to this?

 

I am waiting on Solid Evidence which shows they did not do this? Not some theories and imperfectons to suggest this possibility as things may not have been done perfectly in Thailand. Never heard that a Murder Convicetion was done perfectly in the US either!

[xylophone]

As has already been said, there is no real point over discussing a case in which the verdict has already been reached.

 

I, like the majority of other posters on here and other threads, including just about all of the Thais I know, don't trust this verdict in any way, shape or form.

 

I cannot bring myself to trust this because this country has a reputation for corruption at the highest level, from the BIB, through the military and just about every other aspect of life here, not to mention the disgraceful way which the investigation was carried out, against all of the accepted norms (again civilised norms I should say).

 

It's not hard to understand those feelings because they are "in your face" every day, from the Red Bull heir fiasco, people trafficking by the BIB and the military, the totally corrupt rice pledging scheme, the unusual wealth of those people in power and the fact that many crimes can be carried out, and are to some extent accepted, under the guise of "saving face".

 

Perhaps like a few posters here I know close friends who have had verdicts go against them in cases of swindling and corrupt lawyers, so I have seen what can happen and it's not pretty.

 

So you believe what you want to believe in light of your view of this uncorrupted and law-abiding country and other realists will believe that which their moral compass leads them to believe.

 

 

[rockingrobin]

30 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

So why have they lost there Court Case, there Appeal, and now fighting the Death Sentence?

 

Which some in the Know knew a very long time ago that it was would lead to this?

 

I am waiting on Solid Evidence which shows they did not do this? Not some theories and imperfectons to suggest this possibility as things may not have been done perfectly in Thailand. Never heard that a Murder Convicetion was done perfectly in the US either!

You are wanting to alter the standard and internationally recognised principle of a fair trial , namely the accussed is innoncent untill proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. The burden lies with the prosecution to prove its case.

 

Two further principles to be satisfied are that were the facts of the case are disputed the onus of validity relies with the person making the claim. As the accused is innocent untill proven guilty then untill proven otherwise is account is taken as the truth

 

The validity of the claim is required to be proved beyond reasonable doubt.

[JLCrab]

Indeed the international standard for a guilty verdict is for the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The judges in the case and appeal determined that there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Most on here disagree. I disagree. Not they asked.

Edited August 24, 2017 by JLCrab

[bannork]

4 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

why?

Because I was told by someone with experience in legal matters that a judge could not preside over the same case in 2 courts so I would like to know if that is actually the case or not.

[GOLDBUGGY]

14 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Indeed the international standard for a guilty verdict is for the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

The judges in the case and appeal determined that there was proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Most on here disagree. I disagree. Not they asked.

And may I add that none of them, or us, was in the Court Room and heard all the evidennce. 

 

Would have it been better if it was a Jury Trial? There are a lot of things that would have made this trial better! But was it fare? With the Best Lawyers, they did not have the money to buy, I think it was.

[transam]

May I add, Dave's head injuries did NOT come from the hoe....Any fool can see that...Knuckle duster, fancy ring giving a knockout blow, yes....Did the B2 have any of these or something to do the same damage...?

Forget a knife cos that would have been used in soft tissue areas...

 

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by transam

[yellowboat]

3 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

We know and have proof that the BiB have executed foreign diplomats in central Bangkok, and killed women and children to cover up their crimes.

 

We know and have proof that the BiB have executed foreign tourists, and with the help of their colleagues in the force, escaped overseas to avoid punishment. 

 

We know and have proof that the BiB have planted evidence in cases of murder of foreigners before, in order to obtain convictions of innocent people. 

 

We know and have proof that the BiB kill people in their custody.

With all this knowledge and evidence of criminal activity, you ask us to take them on their word that the DNA was all done properly, with no proof of that being the case whatsoever? Bearing in mind, further, that the DNA report was scribbled on an A4 piece of paper (unacceptable reporting in any way, shape or form), results were obtained in an impossibly short period of time, and all samples were conveniently 'used up' (destroyed or gone).

 

I know what I think. 

An overwhelming justification for a mistrial. 

[Briggsy]

4 hours ago, AGareth2 said:

why?

The names of judges are not revealed in Thailand.

 

In addition, it is quite normal for judges to change during trials in Thailand, particularly long trials. I think there was more than one judge in the initial trial, not totally sure about that.

[AGareth2]

Just now, Briggsy said:

The names of judges are not revealed in Thailand.

 

In addition, it is quite normal for judges to change during trials in Thailand, particularly long trials. I think there was more than one judge in the initial trial, not totally sure about that.

3

[AGareth2]

1 of which I read was also involved with the appeal

[JLCrab]

31 minutes ago, Father Fintan Stack said:

We know and have proof that the BiB have executed foreign diplomats in central Bangkok, and killed women and children to cover up their crimes.

 

We know and have proof that the BiB have executed foreign tourists, and with the help of their colleagues in the force, escaped overseas to avoid punishment. 

<snip>

Who is 'We'?

[bannork]

57 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Who is 'We'?

He is referring to the deaths of the Saudi diplomats back in 1990 and the murder by Chalor of the wife and son of the gem dealer who is supposed to have received the stolen jewelry from the Saudi palace.

Zero to do with the Koh Tao case.

We is the general public- after all Chalor got the death sentence- later commuted.

[JLCrab]

Oh -- I thought maybe he was talking about Siamese Revolution 1688.

[sambum]

15 hours ago, wakeupplease said:

Gen Prayuth Chan-ocha, who installed himself as prime minister, appeared to blame the victims, stating that tourists “think our country is beautiful and is safe so they can do whatever they want. But I ask: will they survive in Thailand if they dress in bikinis? [Only if] they are not beautiful.”

 

And when he later apologised for this remark, he made a second blunder, implying that foreign migrant workers, of which there are about 3,000 in Koh Tao, were guilty.

 

The man who knows everything about everything knows nothing about his big mouth and little brain

 

The police case was further damaged when the head of the Thai forensics institute, Porntip Rojanasunand, told judges DNA on a garden hoe found bloodied near the deceased did not match that of the defendants.

 

Few Thai media organisations reported from the court for much of the trial. One translator employed by Sky News said she was “warned off” helping journalists by the Thai “mafia” after working for them for one day.

It makes you think that they were doomed from Day One, if the self appointed Prime Minister himself makes such biased statements. 

And the fiascoes that followed in terms of "investigation" should at least have got the case thrown out of court on technicalities.

Unfortunately, TIT, and things don't happen the same way as they do in the West. IMHO, this is a prime example of why Thailand will not be accepted on the World "stage", and will always be a 3rd World country.

Edited August 24, 2017 by sambum

[sambum]

1 hour ago, Briggsy said:

The names of judges are not revealed in Thailand.

 

In addition, it is quite normal for judges to change during trials in Thailand, particularly long trials. I think there was more than one judge in the initial trial, not totally sure about that.

"it is quite normal for judges to change during trials in Thailand"

 

Why?

[greenchair]

2 hours ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

And may I add that none of them, or us, was in the Court Room and heard all the evidennce. 

 

Would have it been better if it was a Jury Trial? There are a lot of things that would have made this trial better! But was it fare? With the Best Lawyers, they did not have the money to buy, I think it was.

They had lawyers from 3 countries working on their case. All paid for by the Thai government. They had in excess of a million baht and some have said up to 20 million in donations. They had embassy officials from their government and indeed their own government had taken an interest in their case. 

They had top dna experts all working for free to help them. They had more backup probably than any other case in the history of the world. 

The best they could come up with is gaet analysis, I drunk I don't remember, and our human rights have been violated. I am sorry to say it, but it was pathetic. 

The maid would have done a better job. 

[JLCrab]

Well if the Supreme Court turns out to be not of help to the convicted B2 and their sentence stands, they would be able to submit a Petition for a Royal Pardon.

If so, it would maybe be a help in the petition if some of those we've been reading about here the past few days, who were in the bar that night and observed all that went down, would (at last) come to aid of these 2 -- what would then turn out to be -- wrongfully convicted persons.

That is if such persons really exist.

Edited August 24, 2017 by JLCrab

[greenchair]

Now Robin, I do agree with you, the onus is clearly on the prosecutor to prove guilt, and not the defense to prove innocence. 

 

In saying that, if the prosecutor has enough evidence to show guilt , then the defense have a duty to defend that. If they can't, then the prosecutor evidence will weigh on their side. 

 

I guess that's why they are called. .

THE DEFENSE ??

[greenchair]

5 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

Well if the Supreme Court turns out to be not of help to the convicted B2 and their sentence stands, they would be able to submit a Petition for a Royal Pardon.

If so, it would maybe be a help in the petition if some of those we've been reading about here the past few days, who were in the bar that night and observed all that went down, would (at last) come to aid of these 2 -- what would then turn out to be -- wrongfully convicted persons.

That is if such persons really exist.

Now if I was interested I would just go and visit those innocent "lads"

And tell them to get down on their knees ,  apologise and beg the king for a royal pardon based on their age and crappy legal advice. 

I would tell them to stop all this crap and fess up 

But no, these lawyers will rave on right to the royal pardon, 

The chain of custody was broken, therefore please don't sentence them to death. 

They will not win supreme with the same arguments. 

 

[Briggsy]

40 minutes ago, sambum said:

"it is quite normal for judges to change during trials in Thailand"

 

Why?

Because that is the system. Thai trials stretch over months and years. Judges are scheduled in and make notes on the proceedings. Judgement is made on the various judges' notes.

 

Your question appears to assume the Western concept of a single judge 'owning' a case. The system here is very different.

[sambum]

6 minutes ago, Briggsy said:

Because that is the system. Thai trials stretch over months and years. Judges are scheduled in and make notes on the proceedings. Judgement is made on the various judges' notes.

 

Your question appears to assume the Western concept of a single judge 'owning' a case. The system here is very different.

Yes, I agree with everything you say about the system, and in retrospect, I should have been a bit more specific in my question. 

 

The fact that there is no jury, but 3 judges could be a good thing in some ways because it lessens the risk of the people responsible for making life and death decisions being "got at".

 

However, the part that I find extraordinary is the fact that these judges are frequently changed in the middle of cases, and that  "Judgement is made on the various judges' notes."

 

So, life and death decisions are made on 3 judges' interpretations of another 3 judges' notes, opinions, and interpretations of the "facts"?

 

 

[rockingrobin]

58 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Now Robin, I do agree with you, the onus is clearly on the prosecutor to prove guilt, and not the defense to prove innocence. 

 

In saying that, if the prosecutor has enough evidence to show guilt , then the defense have a duty to defend that. If they can't, then the prosecutor evidence will weigh on their side. 

 

I guess that's why they are called. .

THE DEFENSE ??

What you describe is more akin to a civil prosecution, where preponderance and clear and convincing is adequate level of threshold to gain a guilty verdict.

In a criminal case the threshold is set much higher , due to the severity of a guilty verdict in such cases is more extreme. The prosecution has to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt, this does not mean that doubt cannot exist, but it must be unreasonable. The guilt proven must be that any reasonable person would conclude no other alternative exists with moral certainty

Edited August 24, 2017 by rockingrobin