Yingluck verdict holds the key to reconciliation

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

My take on her 'crimes' is "Did she have her nose in the trough"

She was not charged as such and no evidence has been presented to the court of such.

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

or "Was she extremely naive"

Again, she was not charged as such.

She was charged just the opposite - malfeasance negligence that requires deliberation or intent having full knowledge of the adverse results of the program. One of the principle witnesses against her was the opposition party Democrats whom her party beat in the 2012 national election and expected to lose again in the 2014 election.

[Foozool]

Great show ?

[stephen tracy]

3 hours ago, halloween said:

Why should a defendant's popularity be of concern to the court?

 

Why pander to those who support criminals demanding they escape prosecution in the name of "reconciliation"?

 

What advance in Thai democracy is there if the ballot box over-rides the law?

When did you start caring about democracy all of a sudden?

[Becker]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

Very poor attempt at answering basic questions, really just a diversion. OTOH at least you made some attempt, your democracy loving mates will avoid them like the plague.

Well, as one of the "democracy loving" bad boys on this forum i tell you: Bring it on! Ask the questions we apparently avoid like the plague and I will answer them.

In return you will then answer some questions I have asked you junta fanboys for the last 3+ years, questions which you all run away from like little girls.

Deal?

 

[halloween]

10 minutes ago, Becker said:

Well, as one of the "democracy loving" bad boys on this forum i tell you: Bring it on! Ask the questions we apparently avoid like the plague and I will answer them.

In return you will then answer some questions I have asked you junta fanboys for the last 3+ years, questions which you all run away from like little girls.

Deal?

 

done

[Becker]

24 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

Neither Thaksin nor Yingluck were removed by a military coup. Thaksin has resigned as caretaker PM following his dissolution of parliament. A replacement caretaker PM was duly appointed. Several weeks later Thaksin decided he wanted the job back and just took it - on no authority but his own.

He was obviously trying to take the job of illegally seizing power from the military. The cheeky bugger - no wonder he had to go!

[scorecard]

4 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

 

I seem to have missed a few things...

 

What "momentum of reconciliation' is he talking about?

 

All is see is the Junta holding meetings with their own supporters on army bases.

 

 

Back to basics. What does reconciliation mean, what would it look like and feel like?

 

Does anybody have a clear answer to this question. 

 

Actually I (and others) have asked this same question on this board dozens of times and there has never been one answer.

 

The red support brigade have pushed the 'reconciliation' line a million time, but none of them have ever answered my question. Strange. Same for the other color groups, no clear answer.

 

If it means manipulate the law to make some people momentarily happy, regardless of their actual crimes (if proven of coure), then how is this 'reconciliation'.

 

This just perpetuates ignoring / playing games with the law as seen fit by whoever has a power base and condones and supports the judiciary playing games / playing with the law.

 

Reconciliation cannot be a short term this week scenario, it must be long-term, very long-term and forever.

 

Short-term 'reconciliation' is not and never be a stepping stone to a moral, just and fair civil society. 

Edited August 24, 2017 by scorecard

[tigermoth]

Reconciliation!!! What does this mean and it seems only the current junta knows and uses some fictional make up of the term to constantly delay electios and retain power.

[xylophone]

1 hour ago, HHTel said:

My take on her 'crimes' is "Did she have her nose in the trough" or "Was she extremely naive"

An interesting post and I was thinking the same, this especially after I read the details of the rice pledging scheme in the Nation newspaper yesterday, the details of which absolutely astounded me.

 

Here we have a scheme which was dreamt up by someone akin to the "mad professor" or a very cunning person indeed, because it is a convoluted scheme which was not really necessary and at every juncture it allowed corruption to thrive, from the landowners to the farmers to the millers to the warehouse owners to the big companies with contacts, through to some government officials.

 

It was a scheme which was open to corruption from the start and in this country where corruption is endemic, it was a dream come true for anyone involved in or around it.

 

Anyone with half an ounce of common sense would see that it was a scheme which was there to be abused, so I can't subscribe to the PM being "extremely naive", therefore I have to fall back on the "nose in the trough" description.

[ginjag]

On or off topic it is interesting that most of the Yingluck defenders agree are new-ish members, the same was the case 3 years ago when the reds were at it and Yingluck was in her fading days.  coincidence ???    for some years the old school were the base for this forum,   but again we have the snowdrops sprouting again.

Please leave the military out of this one, they were NOT IN POWER  when Yingluck never attended rice meetings as she was normally flying off shopping somewhere  TRUE

[MrPatrickThai]

3 hours ago, worgeordie said:

Suspended sentence,2000 THB fine...  seems the norm for HiSo influential  people here.

regards worgeordie

Yingluck is not hiso.

Noveau Riche thief maybe.

Edited August 24, 2017 by MrPatrickThai

[ginjag]

9 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Yingluck is not hiso.

Noveau Riche thief maybe.

Sometimes a 2,000 baht fine for a motoring offence ??

[JAG]

We

On or off topic it is interesting that most of the Yingluck defenders agree are new-ish members, the same was the case 3 years ago when the reds were at it and Yingluck was in her fading days.  coincidence ???    for some years the old school were the base for this forum,   but again we have the snowdrops sprouting again.

Please leave the military out of this one, they were NOT IN POWER  when Yingluck never attended rice meetings as she was normally flying off shopping somewhere  TRUE

1. Nice to see you back. I was only wondering the other day what had become of you!

 

2. The fact that you were on here several years ago doesn't, make justifying removing a democratic form of government (albeit flawed) and it's replacement by a military junta, ruling by decree and denying the electorate any choice, any more credible or reasonable.

 

3. Leaving the military out of this makes as much sense as leaving the serpent out of the tale of Adam and Eve!

 

4. Even newcomers are entitled to opinions.

 

5. I see you still have a sticky "caps" button on your keyboard.

[emoji3]

 

[ginjag]

1 minute ago, JAG said:

1. Nice to see you back. I was only wondering the other day what had become of you!

2. The fact that you were on here several years ago doesn't, make justifying removing a democratic form of government (albeit flawed) and it's replacement by a military junta, ruling by decree and denying the electorate any choice, any more credible or reasonable.

3. Even newcomers are entitled to opinions.

4. I see you still have a sticky "caps" button on your keyboard.

Never was away old chap,  typical response of old, Bringing up the JUNTA   oooppps sorry ,   skirting around an elected party that governed un-democratically, hence the reason she is in deep trouble.........always the same Trump is the problem  ha ha--Military are the problem  ha ha.      Plus your usual excuse to the implants (newbies)  they have a right to post---sure,  but just strange---get my drift.      Making a point and using a few capitols is not a criminal offense.  ( I see you are still a mega defender of the Shins,  amazing.)

Quote, "I was wondering the other day what become of you"   ha ha ha   you must think I fell off the back of a number nine bus.   Still in the quieter red shirt north,  always were.  In the picture really different to the bar stool brigade in Pattaya and BKK

 

[Becker]

26 minutes ago, ginjag said:

On or off topic it is interesting that most of the Yingluck defenders agree are new-ish members, the same was the case 3 years ago when the reds were at it and Yingluck was in her fading days.  coincidence ???    for some years the old school were the base for this forum,   but again we have the snowdrops sprouting again.

Please leave the military out of this one, they were NOT IN POWER  when Yingluck never attended rice meetings as she was normally flying off shopping somewhere  TRUE

So you haven't lost faith in the junta after all? I tool your long silence for just that. Guess it doesn't matter what the junta does for one of the few remaining supporters.

[Becker]

3 minutes ago, ginjag said:

In the picture really different to the bar stool brigade in Pattaya and BKK

 

I see your long absence hasn't cured you from making silly generalizations. Maybe you should take another long break.

[ginjag]

1 minute ago, Becker said:

So you haven't lost faith in the junta after all? I tool your long silence for just that. Guess it doesn't matter what the junta does for one of the few remaining supporters.

You long silence with few posts  ???    Junta really is off topic unless you want to try to divert the Lady who is accused. When did you do a national survey to see who has a % advantage  ??    I live in the red country and seemingly there are no uprisings,  locals are not bothering about the SHINS, they are interested in getting on with things--like making ends meet.  No locals are mentioning the military, if things are not bad they are oblivious to who is running the job.    Democratically and diabolical governing, or military intervention.

[ginjag]

10 minutes ago, Becker said:

I see your long absence hasn't cured you from making silly generalizations. Maybe you should take another long break.

Again typical reply,  just why in  hell cannot some of you Shin supporters condemn the Yingluck-Thaksin decisions , as well as not liking the military decisions.     Oh  sorry because the Military are not democratically elected ??    I have noted scores of things I have not agreed with (military)  subs,  land retakes for some and not others,   police actions here and there,  for not taking action against authority in Pattaya sea and beach clean up,      there is 2 sides to this topic, but the topic IS about the accused NOT me  or the powers that be now.

Never did take a break been here 37 years,  get on board, gen up-catch up

Edited August 24, 2017 by ginjag

[Siripon]

Just now, JCauto said:

Yes, expel the majority of the country. To where, one might ask. Is this the Yellow version of "Let them eat cake"? This is the true spirit of reconciliation, what a brilliant suggestion. 

I'm afraid my poor English has let me down . I was urging the red shirts and grassroots to expel the Shinawats, I was not implying all 3 groups should be removed from politics..

I should have written it as: 'Come on red shirts and grass roots, throw away the chains of the Shinawats, put your own interests first, not the vested interests of a super rich clan!'

[JCauto]

14 minutes ago, ginjag said:

Again typical reply,  just why in  hell cannot some of you Shin supporters condemn the Yingluck-Thaksin decisions , as well as not liking the military decisions.     Oh  sorry because the Military are not democratically elected ??    I have noted scores of things I have not agreed with (military)  subs,  land retakes for some and not others,   police actions here and there,  for not taking action against authority in Pattaya sea and beach clean up,      there is 2 sides to this topic, but the topic IS about the accused NOT me  or the powers that be now.

Never did take a break been here 37 years,  get on board, gen up-catch up

I don't know where you get your ideas from, but most of the people I know who are on the Red Shirt side have acknowledged repeatedly what a scumbag Thaksin was, and noted that the amnesty attempt was spectacularly stupid. That's the warts part of democracy, and you'd have to go back to Chuan's administration to find a PM who was not on the take, yet he couldn't keep his colleague's hands out of the till (the execrable Suthep). On the other hand, we're also still waiting for the first clean Junta. Hence my preference for democracy, the first step is to stop the endless cycle of coups.

[JCauto]

13 minutes ago, Siripon said:

I'm afraid my poor English has let me down . I was urging the red shirts and grassroots to expel the Shinawats, I was not implying all 3 groups should be removed from politics..

I should have written it as: 'Come on red shirts and grass roots, throw away the chains of the Shinawats, put your own interests first, not the vested interests of a super rich clan!'

Oh, that makes a lot more sense. I would only note that they WERE voting in their best interests. The Shins, for all their many faults, were the first who really provided some tangible benefits to the Reds at the grassroots. They probably assumed that anyone in power was going to loot the treasury, seeing as pretty much all of them have regardless of affiliation.

[Siripon]

Just now, JCauto said:

Oh, that makes a lot more sense. I would only note that they WERE voting in their best interests. The Shins, for all their many faults, were the first who really provided some tangible benefits to the Reds at the grassroots. They probably assumed that anyone in power was going to loot the treasury, seeing as pretty much all of them have regardless of affiliation.

But Thaksin only offers the grass roots crumbs, only a fish, never a fishing rod or boat. The working class need to guide themselves with long term sustainable policies that truly benefit them. It could happen if community politics can truly grow.

[JCauto]

Just now, Siripon said:

But Thaksin only offers the grass roots crumbs, only a fish, never a fishing rod or boat. The working class need to guide themselves with long term sustainable policies that truly benefit them. It could happen if community politics can truly grow.

Well, when they've never even been given crumbs, it's a start. Note that Thaksin provided them not only tangible populist benefits like the 30-baht health care, he also decentralized power both to the Provincial Governors and provided funds directly under the control of the Tambon Administrative Organizations. This is the start of giving them the fishing rod. 

You have to ask yourself, why did ALL the previous governments do nothing of the sort. If they had, they'd be able to compete in the elections, rather than rely on military coups to give them power. 

[ginjag]

12 minutes ago, JCauto said:

I don't know where you get your ideas from, but most of the people I know who are on the Red Shirt side have acknowledged repeatedly what a scumbag Thaksin was, and noted that the amnesty attempt was spectacularly stupid. That's the warts part of democracy, and you'd have to go back to Chuan's administration to find a PM who was not on the take, yet he couldn't keep his colleague's hands out of the till (the execrable Suthep). On the other hand, we're also still waiting for the first clean Junta. Hence my preference for democracy, the first step is to stop the endless cycle of coups.

You are saying that the red shirts funded and ruled by Thaksin acknowledged what a scumbag he was  ????   are you on this planet--------he paid for control of villages, funded and known reds busing down to BKK......what on earth are you on about  ??......canot speak much unless I drink the same potion as you------your post is all over the place.   OMG

[CaptHaddock]

5 minutes ago, Siripon said:

But Thaksin only offers the grass roots crumbs, only a fish, never a fishing rod or boat. The working class need to guide themselves with long term sustainable policies that truly benefit them. It could happen if community politics can truly grow.

Often the distinction between a lazy, uninformed opinion and sheer stupidity can be hard to discern.  The 30 baht scheme reduced infant mortality in Thailand by 13% in the first year according to researchers at MIT. 

http://news.mit.edu/2014/how-health-care-plan-quickly-lowered-infant-mortality-0430

 

That is a huge public health outcome.  Impoverished households also dropped from 3.4% in 1996 to 0.8 to 1.3% between 2006 and 2009.

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2013/04/new-research-continues-to-demonstrate-the-success-of-thailands-universal-coverage-healthcare-scheme/#7UhbVhRk6AqYjLhg.97

 

For starters.  Thaksin made political promises to the Thai majority and he kept those promises, for which they quite understandably love him. 

[LannaGuy]

38 minutes ago, ginjag said:

Again typical reply,  just why in  hell cannot some of you Shin supporters condemn the Yingluck-Thaksin decisions , as well as not liking the military decisions.     Oh  sorry because the Military are not democratically elected ??    I have noted scores of things I have not agreed with (military)  subs,  land retakes for some and not others,   police actions here and there,  for not taking action against authority in Pattaya sea and beach clean up,      there is 2 sides to this topic, but the topic IS about the accused NOT me  or the powers that be now.

Never did take a break been here 37 years,  get on board, gen up-catch up

Let's start but you cutting out the insults?  'Shin supporters'  does not cover the vast majority of well-informed and highly intelligent opinion on here.

 

The few Junta supporters, like yourself,  are a bit like the flat-earth society and no amount of obvious evidence will change your mindset.  It's ALL but, but, but, Thaksin

[owl sees all]

5 hours ago, Siripon said:

If Yingluk hadn't introduced the amnesty bill  Pheua Thai would still be in power today.

If I could read the future with such certainty I would be richer than Taksin.

 

I think a coup was inevitable although no-one can predict too far in front; especially in LOL.

 

 

 

[jayboy]

There can be no reconciliation whilst Thaksin is still alive. Pheua Thai need to be reborn, free of any Shinawat influence.
Pheua Thai needs realistic long term policies- education for example, to help the grass roots. not catchy superficial nonsense such as one scholarship ,one district.
Thailand is not AIS.
But then who will pay the village headmen and the canvassers? Who will pay the MPs to make sure they pay homage to whichever Shinawat is in power?
If Yingluk hadn't introduced the amnesty bill  Pheua Thai would still be in power today. But she couldn't resist her older brother's demands.
Expel the Shinawats, red shirts and grass roots!

Welcome back.Your knowledge and ability to articulate an argument are appreciated.Most of my Thai friends hold exactly the same views on this matter that you have expressed.Your post was however on this occasion trite and ignorant.

Let me explain why I think you are completely wrong.Politics should not be a zero sum game.In Thailand progress has been stymied because the opposing political forces want complete victory.But outside a state of open war this is not possible.In any solution there must be a give and take.In this process there will be concessions on both sides that feel profoundly uncomfortable.

For the time being opposition to the unelected elites cannot be separated from the Shinawatra influence.The Junta clearly believes this to be so with its steely determination to crush this altogether.It ( and its shadowy backers) believes as perhaps you do that the difficulties of the last decade or so have been created by Thaksin stirring up the rural voters simply for his own advantage.

Thaksin is clearly an opportunist but it was he that politicised millions of rural Thais who felt he had their interests at heart.There was a gap in the market since the other political parties were too Bangkok based and too influenced by Sino Thai middle class interests.Of course Thaksin wasn't much different in background- just sharper and quicker on the uptake, though often clumsy in implementation.

I do not think you can blame Pheua Thai for a lack of long term policies when their powerful enemies are bent on destroying them.It's like asking a drowning man what he going to have dinner when he reaches the shore.In any case populist PT policies have been copied by Abhisit and the Junta.But the Thai public knows who to credit.

Of course the Amnesty Bill was a mistake but something like that will be needed even if Thaksin is excluded.I presume you are having a laugh when you say Yingluck would still be in power if the Bill had not been introduced.

Thailand is one of the most unequal societies on earth.Wealth is mostly vested in Sino Thai interests and the fearful Sino Thai middle class in the main go along with a system that makes the majority second class citizens.Regardless of the verdict today nothing will be solved- with problems increased and stored up for the future.I have great faith in Thai ability to compromise and emerge triumphant.But to date the governing class has shown little evidence of any enlightened sense of its own interests.If they want things to remain the same things will have to change.

[CaptHaddock]

47 minutes ago, ginjag said:

Again typical reply,  just why in  hell cannot some of you Shin supporters condemn the Yingluck-Thaksin decisions , as well as not liking the military decisions.     Oh  sorry because the Military are not democratically elected ??    I have noted scores of things I have not agreed with (military)  subs,  land retakes for some and not others,   police actions here and there,  for not taking action against authority in Pattaya sea and beach clean up,      there is 2 sides to this topic, but the topic IS about the accused NOT me  or the powers that be now.

Never did take a break been here 37 years,  get on board, gen up-catch up

Perhaps because the corrupt actions and abuse of rights undertaken by Thaksin do not approach in severity the crime of stealing the entire government of a nation.  A discussion of mere policy differences entirely misses the point that one party took power by force against the will of the majority of Thai people.

[ginjag]

6 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

Let's start but you cutting out the insults?  'Shin supporters'  does not cover the vast majority of well-informed and highly intelligent opinion on here.

 

The few Junta supporters, like yourself,  are a bit like the flat-earth society and no amount of obvious evidence will change your mindset.  It's ALL but, but, but, Thaksin

Just because of my opposition to Thaksin and Yingluck does not make me a military supporter  (your biased thinking) I gave no insults, just plain fact  In fact I detest the word Junta,   and actually thought the word was outlawed on here.  I have shown my distaste to Red shirt brigade and military, but you prefer to not acknowledge that---I am posting about a PM that was completely neglegant, and not chairing the rice committee that is the biggest part of the summons.