Trump clashes with sports world over player protests, invitation

[stevenl]

32 minutes ago, amvet said:

To all concerned.  Of course kneeling down is disrespectful.  That's the point.  Those guys feel that America disrespects black people and the black people want to show disrespect in return.  Normal behavior during the playing of a National Anthem is standing up with hand on heart.  A fist, the bird, mooning, turning your back, kneeling down or standing on your head, sticking out your tongue or throwing a shoe are elements of disrespect. 

 

Before you can have a discussion one should agree on the terms being discussed.  If I punch you in the face that is not a sign of liking you. 

You feel it is disrespectful, others have a different opinion.

[Thakkar]

17 minutes ago, amvet said:

Any half brained idiot knows disrespect is not a crime in the USA.

 

Again, kneeling during the anthem is not, and has never been about disrespecting anythything. Continuously repeating this canard is an attempt to delegitimize a peaceful, respectful airing of long-standing grievances over treatment most white people never experience, but far too many black Americans do.

[amvet]

11 minutes ago, stevenl said:

You feel it is disrespectful, others have a different opinion.

Is wearing a mini skirt disrespectful? Is wearing a mini skirt in a Buddhist temple disrespectful? 

 

Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2)  when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[amvet]

10 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

Again, kneeling during the anthem is not, and has never been about disrespecting anythything. Continuously repeating this canard is an attempt to delegitimize a peaceful, respectful airing of long-standing grievances over treatment most white people never experience, but far too many black Americans do.

The disrespect of norms established while the American Anthem is playing is done to express dislike of the American system of treating black people.  To try and insist otherwise flies in the face of logic.  If it was not disrespectful why would they do it?  That's the point.  Showing disrespect.  The same as civil disobedience as opposed to violent protest.  

[Thakkar]

3 minutes ago, amvet said:

 

18 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

 

Again, kneeling during the anthem is not, and has never been about disrespecting anythything. Continuously repeating this canard is an attempt to delegitimize a peaceful, respectful airing of long-standing grievances over treatment most white people never experience, but far too many black Americans do.

The disrespect of norms established while the American Anthem is playing is done to express dislike of the American system of treating black people.  To try and insist otherwise flies in the face of logic.  If it was not disrespectful why would they do it?  That's the point.  Showing disrespect.  The same as civil disobedience as opposed to violent protest.  

 

 

“Express dislike of the American system of treating black people”

 

the American system currently falls short of the American ideal as laid out in the constitution and the Bill of Rights. This peaceful, quiet and respectful protest is a reminder that the system falls short of the ideal and needs reforming. That makes it as much (if not more of) a patriotic endeavor as standing with your hand on your heart.

 

There is no disrespect.

[Opl]

10 minutes ago, amvet said:

The disrespect of norms established while the American Anthem is playing is done to express dislike of the American system of treating black people.  To try and insist otherwise flies in the face of logic.  If it was not disrespectful why would they do it?  That's the point.  Showing disrespect.  The same as civil disobedience as opposed to violent protest.  

 

 

"If we would have started out by ignoring what players were saying and pointing out how humbled they must be to live in America it could have nipped this in the bud."

https://vets-for-trump.com/09/kneeling-and-the-nfl/

 

 

[stevenl]

1 hour ago, LannaGuy said:

Just watched Malaysian F1 and all 3 on podium removed their hats to respect the winning anthem. It's about politeness and respect not about party politics and making a 'point'. let sports stay sports. 

Many here will say they were disrespectful since their hand was not on their heart.

[stevenl]

45 minutes ago, amvet said:

Is wearing a mini skirt disrespectful? Is wearing a mini skirt in a Buddhist temple disrespectful? 

 

Conduct During Playing.—During a rendition of the national anthem—

(1) when the flag is displayed—

(A) individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;

(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and

(C) all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

(2)  when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.

Military rules are not applicable.

[amvet]

8 minutes ago, Opl said:

Amvet, you stick to the symbolism , and carefully avoid the substance;

Even thoudh, IMO, Trump is not entitled to define what patriotsim is ( - Donald Trump Calls Sleeping Around, Avoiding STDs His ‘Personal Vietnam’  http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/donald-trump-calls-sleeping-around-as-his-personal-vietnam-w432176.)

Nothing to do with symbolism rather polite deference to tradition like taking off one's shoes before going into a Buddhist Temple or women not wearing shorts or short skirts.  There are many places in Buddhism where women are not allowed.  Maybe right maybe wrong and you may protest but know everyone knows you are showing disrespect if you wear shoes or a short skirt in a Temple.

[amvet]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Military rules are not applicable.

I guess English is not your first language.  I wrote, " (C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

To all concerned.  Of course kneeling down is disrespectful.  That's the point.  Those guys feel that America disrespects black people and the black people want to show disrespect in return.  Normal behavior during the playing of a National Anthem is standing up with hand on heart.

 

Well here's yo man.

 

 

Now WE ALL make mistakes, that was 5 or 6 months ago. Respect for the flag is the thing that is in built, you see how Trumps son needed no prompting. So lets give Trump the benefit of the doubt, he made a mistake. Now lets look at just two months ago at the commissioning of the Gerald Ford!

 

 

 

And you think this man has ANY RIGHT to tell anyone that they are disrespecting the flag and the anthem! Give us all a break!!

 

You see, the reason you should be worried is that psychologically Trump does not see that the national anthem being played is for the country and the flag, he thinks it is being played for him! A bit like we do in the UK for the Queen, but Donny does not realise this anthem is not for him

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Andaman Al

[amvet]

7 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

 

Well here's yo man.

 

 

Now WE ALL make mistakes, that was 5 or 6 months ago. Respect for the flag is the thing that is in built, you see how Trumps son needed no prompting. So lets give Trump the benefit of the doubt, he made a mistake. Now lets look at just two months ago at the commissioning of the Gerald Ford!

 

 

 

And you think this man has ANY RIGHT to tell anyone that they are disrespecting the flag and the anthem! Give us all a break!!

 

If one man forgot and was reminded and that is one thing.  As opposed to players planned kneeling or sitting during the National Anthem.  And lets not pretend sitting is also respectful. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[Andaman Al]

2 minutes ago, amvet said:

If one man forgot and was reminded and that is one thing.  As opposed to players planned kneeling or sitting during the National Anthem. 

 

You make it up as you go along. You are trolling. But he is not just 'one man', he is POTUS. Seems Donald keeps forgetting. What was the excuse at the Gerald Ford? The reason he keeps forgetting is simple - no respect. Why we are even having this discussion I have no idea. We are discussing whether POTUS respects the anthem and the flag when he has colluded with the USA's main adversary in an attempt to bring down the US democratic system Now that IS no respect. But I have news for you. Too many good people will stop him from succeeding while you and your like enable him.

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, amvet said:

If one man forgot and was reminded and that is one thing.  As opposed to players planned kneeling or sitting during the National Anthem.  And lets not pretend sitting is also respectful. 

Removed, given up.

Edited October 1, 2017 by stevenl

[amvet]

Just now, Opl said:

 

Yes they put their carreers if not their lives on line -for these peaceful protests . This at least deserves the minimum respect to at least focus on the cause. Instead, Trump manipulâtes anger and racial antagonism and it works .. forget aboujt the substance  ..and again, there is no disrespect. 

You disagree, it's your choice. 

Tell me with a straight face this is not disrespect. 

[Opl]

9 minutes ago, amvet said:

Tell me with a straight face this is not disrespect. 

 

In the eyes I would tell you , disrespect is when Trump quietly accepts the Purple Heart from a veteran. 

("I always wanted to get the Purple Heart. This was much easier," Trump said.)

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Opl

[Thongkorn]

Its ironic that many Military personnel all over the world put their lives on the line to fight for the cause of freedom, Right or wrong they do as they are commanded, Then people use the freedom to disrespect the flag the military people fought under to provide them with the right to protest,

[amvet]

7 minutes ago, Opl said:

 

Yes they put their carreers if not their lives on line -for these peaceful protests . This at least deserves the minimum respect to at least focus on the cause. Instead, Trump articulates anger and racial antagonism - depending on opinion polls - and it works .. forget about the substance  .. again, there is no disrespect. 

You disagree, it's your choice. 

I have no problem with protests against the way America handles race relations.  It's legal.  I don't care.  Protesting by showing disrespect of the American Anthem or flag or President is legal.  I could care less.  But it is what it is.  Anyone can disrespect any American symbol and any American including the President can have an opinion about it.  It don't bother me.   

[Andaman Al]

 

1 hour ago, Thongkorn said:

Its ironic that many Military personnel all over the world put their lives on the line to fight for the cause of freedom, Right or wrong they do as they are commanded, Then people use the freedom to disrespect the flag the military people fought under to provide them with the right to protest,

 

What is more ironic is that people who have never even come close to conflict other than watching 'Saving Private Ryan', would presume to understand what upsets the Military and what doesn't. I have fought in 3 conflicts and frankly it does not bother me in the least that one man chose to protest by taking a knee. I have no problem fighting for that man and his rights to protest for equality. What I have a problem with is fighting for 50 million retards that voted for Trump, a man that now endangers the lives of my brothers and sisters in arms more than any other President in living memory. Now those voters displayed a SERIOUS case of disrespect for the USA, the Constitution and the Flag. Trump's supporters are enabling a man guilty of treason, just how disrespectful to the flag do you get? Give me a stadium full of kneelers for a minute on a Sunday every time.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Rimmer
Grammar police text removed

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, Thongkorn said:

Its ironic that many Military personnel all over the world put their lives on the line to fight for the cause of freedom, Right or wrong they do as they are commanded, Then people use the freedom to disrespect the flag the military people fought under to provide them with the right to protest,

Stop already with claiming that the NFL protesters are somehow offending all or most veterans. Who authorized you to speak for them?

[amvet]

3 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

Stop already with claiming that the NFL protesters are somehow offending all or most veterans. Who authorized you to speak for them?

Officials from two of the nation’s largest veterans groups attacked this weekend’s National Football League protests as “disrespectful” to the American flag and the country.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/veterans/2017/09/25/vfw-slams-nfl-players-for-anthem-protests/

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

I have no problem with protests against the way America handles race relations.  It's legal.  I don't care.  Protesting by showing disrespect of the American Anthem or flag or President is legal.  I could care less.  But it is what it is.  Anyone can disrespect any American symbol and any American including the President can have an opinion about it.  It don't bother me.   

 

You say it doesn’t bother you, and it shouldn’t. But judging by your posts, I’d say it bothers you at least a little. I’d further suggest that it bothers you for a good reason, that reason being you consider it disrespectful.

 

But it isn’t disrespectful at all. It is a peaceful and dignified way of reminding Americans at a venue and event that is “all-American” that America’s laudable ideal of equality and freedom for all has bypassed a large swathe of Americans by virtue of their race. It is a peaceful call to arms to confront this ugly, uncomfortable scab in the American body politic, and to treat it so that America can achieve the ideal statehood it was founded to achieve.

 

The players who started this put their careers and fortunes on the line to show what true respect for *The Idea of America* should look like. THAT’S patriotism. That’s true respect—to peacefully hanker for a better Union rather than insincerely salute a deeply flawed Union. What can be more American?

[ilostmypassword]

4 minutes ago, amvet said:

Officials from two of the nation’s largest veterans groups attacked this weekend’s National Football League protests as “disrespectful” to the American flag and the country.

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/veterans/2017/09/25/vfw-slams-nfl-players-for-anthem-protests/

The VFW's membership skews elderly and white. Politically it's always been right of center. It's no surprise about where they stand.  They certainly can't claim to speak for most veterans.

Younger veterans bypass VFW, American Legion for service, fitness groups

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/19/younger-veterans-bypass-vfw-american-legion-for-se/

[amvet]

5 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

The VFW's membership skews elderly and white. Politically it's always been right of center. It's no surprise about where they stand.  They certainly can't claim to speak for most veterans.

Younger veterans bypass VFW, American Legion for service, fitness groups

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/19/younger-veterans-bypass-vfw-american-legion-for-se/

You asked, " Stop already with claiming that the NFL protesters are somehow offending all or most veterans. Who authorized you to speak for them?"  In the absence of any other representative groups I'd say the VFW and American Legion speak for the majority of vets which was your initial question.    

[amvet]

18 minutes ago, Thakkar said:

You say it doesn’t bother you, and it shouldn’t. But judging by your posts, I’d say it bothers you at least a little. I’d further suggest that it bothers you for a good reason, that reason being you consider it disrespectful.

 

But it isn’t disrespectful at all. It is a peaceful and dignified way of reminding Americans at a venue and event that is “all-American” that America’s laudable ideal of equality and freedom for all has bypassed a large swathe of Americans by virtue of their race. It is a peaceful call to arms to confront this ugly, uncomfortable scab in the American body politic, and to treat it so that America can achieve the ideal statehood it was founded to achieve.

 

The players who started this put their careers and fortunes on the line to show what true respect for *The Idea of America* should look like. THAT’S patriotism. That’s true respect—to peacefully hanker for a better Union rather than insincerely salute a deeply flawed Union. What can be more American?

You miss the point of the protest.  If it wasn't disrespectful it wouldn't be a protest now would it?  When football players sit down during the playing of the National Anthem that is disrespect.  It is supposed to be after all that is the point. 

Edited October 1, 2017 by amvet

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, amvet said:

You asked, " Stop already with claiming that the NFL protesters are somehow offending all or most veterans. Who authorized you to speak for them?"  In the absence of any other representative groups I'd say the VFW and American Legion speak for the majority of vets which was your initial question.    

Which is another way of saying for want of anything better... 

In this case it's just not good enough.  Once again, they skew old and white.  So no, they are definitely not a representative sample of veterans.  

Membership in the Veterans of Foreign Wars has dropped from 2 million in 1986 to 1.3 million today as the organization searches for ways to bounce back, the San Antonio Express-News reported.

Only 15 percent of its members are Iraq and Afghanistan vets and the average age is 68

http://www.newsmax.com/US/aging-VFW-veterans-of-foreign-wars-benefits/2017/01/02/id/766431/

 

 

[amvet]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Which is another way of saying for want of anything better... 

In this case it's just not good enough.  Once again, they skew old and white.  So no, they are definitely not a representative sample of veterans.  

Membership in the Veterans of Foreign Wars has dropped from 2 million in 1986 to 1.3 million today as the organization searches for ways to bounce back, the San Antonio Express-News reported.

Only 15 percent of its members are Iraq and Afghanistan vets and the average age is 68

http://www.newsmax.com/US/aging-VFW-veterans-of-foreign-wars-benefits/2017/01/02/id/766431/

If you have a better source feel free to post it but until you do the combined total of almost 4 million members trumps your suspicions.

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, amvet said:

You miss the point of the protest.  If it wasn't disrespectful it wouldn't be a protest now would it?  When football players sit down during the playing of the National Anthem that is disrespect.  It is supposed to be after all that is the point. 

The point wasn't to protest the flag,  the anthem, or patriotism. You know that right? trump has cynically twisted and inflamed for purposes of base loyalty and deflection. 

[metisdead]

Off topic trolling posts and replies have been removed. 

[ilostmypassword]

2 minutes ago, amvet said:

If you have a better source feel free to post it but until you do the combined total of almost 4 million members trumps your suspicions.

Again these organization skew old and white. If a political poster surveyed only mostly old white men would you give credence to their results?