New roof advice

[carlyai]

Sorry, sometimes my pictures post upside down. Look ok but post wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, wayned said:

The window frames are aluminum.  Raw aluminum needs to have an etching primer applied before painting.  A widely used primer is zinc chromate but it is highly carcinogenic.  I would recommend Rustolieum aluminum primer with the color coat also Rustolieum.  Rustolieum is available here as I use it on my farm equipment.

 

Having said that, the color coating on the aluminum frames is most likely the color of the anodizing treatment which also makes the surface of the aluminum inert and should accept paint without the etching primer, but I would still use the Rustolieum primer and color topcoat.

 

Do not use a water based emulsion paint.  If you don't use the Rustolieum you need to use an oil based paint.

Thanks! Just what I needed to know.

[carlyai]

Sorry, sometimes my pictures post upside down. Look ok but post wrong.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I tried to remove this post as pic upside down, looks like I didn't remove it all.
Was just saying with the roof off, good time to make provision for fans.

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[Kwasaki]

11 hours ago, scorecard said:

 

OIC!

Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.

[kelboy]

15 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.

Yea you love the Muslims 555

 

[Kwasaki]

5 hours ago, carlyai said:

From the books or TV series 'Rumpole of the Bailey'.

There's no disrespect intended. If you've been married for a long time you slowly figure out who the boss is.

Apology for off topic Sheryl but you like cats.

 

Love is different when married…

Last night I was sitting on the sofa watching TV  When I heard my wife's' voice from the kitchen.

" What would you like for dinner, my love? Chicken, Beef or Lamb? "

I said, " Thank you darling, I'll the have chicken."

She replied " You're having soup, arse-hole. I was talking to the cat."

[scorecard]

46 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Organisation of Islamic Cooperation.

No thanks.

[simoh1490]

I'm not too hopeful that painting the window frames will reduce heat that much but it's worth a punt, part of the problem is that there's no thermal block between the walls and the window frames so heat comes at the frames from two directions, direct sunlight and heat transfers from the walls. Even if you were able to put canopies over the windows to reduce the direct sunlight, heat transfer from the walls will still be considerable - now wood frames, that's another aspect entirely.

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

I'm not too hopeful that painting the window frames will reduce heat that much but it's worth a punt, part of the problem is that there's no thermal block between the walls and the window frames so heat comes at the frames from two directions, direct sunlight and heat transfers from the walls. Even if you were able to put canopies over the windows to reduce the direct sunlight, heat transfer from the walls will still be considerable - now wood frames, that's another aspect entirely.

To Add: I strongly suspect that by reducing or eliminating direct sunlight on the glass you will feel the benefit inside the house although the frames will remain very hot. As said previously, I use external bamboo blinds and whilst the frames they shield from sunlight remain hot, inside the room remains acceptably cool. Don't lose sight of the fact that you are only reducing the heat load, not eliminating it completely.

Edited November 28, 2017 by simoh1490

[simoh1490]

On 25/11/2017 at 3:18 PM, Sheryl said:

These would be great if they came in widths consistent with windows, but seem to be only in widths of 60 or 100cm. 60 cm is enough to shade the glass but not the metal frame of the windows. I would need 75 cm width where there are single windows and 150 width where double windows.  Anyone seen anything of this sort in those sort of widths?

Don't get hung up on trying to shield the frames, protecting the frames, that won't buy you much improvement - you need to shield the glass as much as possible but if you end up with ten percent that is not shielded for fifteen percent of the day, that's still very worthwhile doing.

 

Also, you might consider using 100 cm units to shield single windows and two 100 cm units side by side for the double windows (that wouldn't look out of place or odd since the ends of the units are flush). 

 

A final option is that any halfway decent small manufacturer of aluminium windows and doors, will be most happy to make you a canopy frame out of aluminium, into which you can fit coloured polycarbonate sheet (that's the plastic sheet used in the HomePro canopies we were discussing).

 

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

  On 11/25/2017 at 3:18 PM, Sheryl said:

These would be great if they came in widths consistent with windows, but seem to be only in widths of 60 or 100cm. 60 cm is enough to shade the glass but not the metal frame of the windows. I would need 75 cm width where there are single windows and 150 width where double windows.  Anyone seen anything of this sort in those sort of widths?

Can't the blinds be made to the widths you require.?

 

Replacing existing glass in a particular house area with heat mirror glazing is not that expensive and helps with reducing heat gains. 

[simoh1490]

2 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Can't the blinds be made to the widths you require.?

 

Replacing existing glass in a particular house area with heat mirror glazing is not that expensive and helps with reducing heat gains. 

I don't know, I've never tried.

[Kwasaki]

22 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

I don't know, I've never tried.

I have found it beneficial in downstairs rooms and able keep internal window curtains open, keep meaning to get upstairs bedroom window glazing replaced with it that faces south,  it darkens the room a bit but not see that as a problem.  

[Sheryl]

By heat mirror glazing do you mean the stuff on bathroom windows? If so, would not want that.

 

I highly value and unobstructed view and lots of natural light coming into the house (hence the 20 windows on the ground floor and glassed in observatory roiom on the second floor) -- my house is surrounded by glorious unspoiled nature, lots if rare birds etc and I want to preserve that view. Which is why I do not even have tinted windows on the ground floor, nor on the glassed in porch, only in the bedrooms.

 

Of course there are trade-offs in terms of heat.

 

What I am currently leaning towards is the following:

 

1. Extend out the small roofing under the 3 gables on the front (south facing) of the house so that the eaves come out say an extra meter. Probably replace what is now a single level of fibro tile with longer galavanized steel panels since they are lighter weight so easier in terms of the added beams/purlins required...my regular roofing guys would do that infrastructure and they aren't architects so don't want to get into anything where load bearing capacity would likely be a big issue. I can get Colorbond for that, in my abortive search to get it for the roof I found several places that have 40 - 100 meters of it left over they'd be glad to unload.

 

2. I think the above will completely shade the second floor windows and much of the second floor walls. if the glassed in area is still generating too much heat due to sun hitting the bottom of it, perhaps tint the bottom windows only - no big loss to me in terms of view, but my cat will not like it. (In my house it is the cat in my avatar who is SWBO).

 

3. Either add galvanized steel awning to the lower half of the house on the south and west sides, or those canopy things over the windows.. The awning will give more heat protection as it would cover the whole area, not just the windows. This too might be with colorbond. I need to price these two alternatives. . Wouldn't do it until well after the roof is finished, doesn't need the roofing crew as not so high up.

 

Thoughts?

[wayned]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

1. Extend out the small roofing under the 3 gables on the front (south facing) of the house so that the eaves come out say an extra meter. Probably replace what is now a single level of fibro tile with longer galavanized steel panels since they are lighter weight so easier in terms of the added beams/purlins required...my regular roofing guys would do that infrastructure and they aren't architects so don't want to get into anything where load bearing capacity would likely be a big issue. I can get Colorbond for that, in my abortive search to get it for the roof I found several places that have 40 - 100 meters of it left over they'd be glad to unload.

I think that the easiest, most aesthetic and cheapest way of proving the extra 1 meter overhang  would be to weld on pieces of steel to extend the rafters and install an extra purlin once the roof is off.  I would use the new composite tiles so the extension matches the new roof.

[Sheryl]

This would not be on the roof, it would be the small area under the gables.  So does nto directly exten or touch the roof which is above so  I think steel sheets in same color would look OK - I will certainly use that rather than tiles if I put an skirt awning above th first story so would match that. Using same tiles is certainly a possibility but then I need to be sure of the strength of the added beam and given that not an extension of the roof proper not sure makes much esthetic difference.

 

The bigger question is, how much added day-long shade am I likely to get from doing this? Would it make more sense to keep same length and then have something coming straight downward from the eaves a bit? (I've seen some awnings like that). I suppose I should experiment using tarp to see what happens.

[simoh1490]

I think that area is crying out for some kind of roller affair, something that can be height adjusted, fastened to the roof under the gable about one foot away from the window, you might even be able to extend/close through the window - it doesn't need to be very long because of the proximity of the roof to the window. 

[Sheryl]

I considered that but more complicated/more maintainence issues and then I just don't see when or how I would use it. I have inside drapes on those windows which make it cooler when closed but I never close them during the day because I want the view, roller blinds would block that. What I am hoping is that by extending the roofing under the gables I can get more shade while still keeping the full view.

[wayned]

I know that it's hind sight and maybe too late, but I went back and looked at the pictures of the three gables and wonder what their purpose is other the aesthetics and random leak generators!  You also posted pictures of the inside of one and there is nothing.  In hind sight I think that what I would do after the roof is removed is to totally eliminate all three gables and redo the structure were the roof is a the same slope of the connecting roofs and extend all of the rafters to get at least a 1 meter overhand the entire length of the house.  Your potential leak problem is eliminated and you get the shading that you need/want from the extended overhang.  Having said that it would be interesting to see exactly what structure exists after the existing roof is removed.  I know, hind sight is 20/20 and I'd go somewhere and have a pint but where I live there are no pubs and the closest 7-11 is 12 kilometers away and they don't sell beer at 0410!

[carlyai]

I know that it's hind sight and maybe too late, but I went back and looked at the pictures of the three gables and wonder what their purpose is other the aesthetics and random leak generators!  You also posted pictures of the inside of one and there is nothing.  In hind sight I think that what I would do after the roof is removed is to totally eliminate all three gables and redo the structure were the roof is a the same slope of the connecting roofs and extend all of the rafters to get at least a 1 meter overhand the entire length of the house.  Your potential leak problem is eliminated and you get the shading that you need/want from the extended overhang.  Having said that it would be interesting to see exactly what structure exists after the existing roof is removed.  I know, hind sight is 20/20 and I'd go somewhere and have a pint but where I live there are no pubs and the closest 7-11 is 12 kilometers away and they don't sell beer at 0410!

Yes me too, I was wondering what the 3 separate roofs are for, and to eliminate them would be more leak proof.

Also the louvered windows. I think Sheryl said she didn't want to replace these or that whole window set up. But, wouldn't one or two heat insulated/ lightly tinted windows be better for the view and heat defence properties?

I suppose the louver windows are there for air flow. No other way?

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[simoh1490]

I suspect Sheryl may be a bit delicate at this stage in the proceedings, suggesting a remake of the roof at this late stage in the game may push her over the edge into therapy hence I don't support the idea, the roof is just fine as is.

 

But your second para. is spot on! Getting rid of the louvres and replacing them with double glazed or heat reflective units (at some later stage) would be a sound idea, it doesn't have to be done straight away. The louvres are for air flow and given everything we've discussed thus far, they are now in the wrong place so they must remain closed, otherwise, they will defeat the objectives of what we've already discussed. if they are opened (because they are not on the cool side of the house).

[carlyai]

I suspect Sheryl may be a bit delicate at this stage in the proceedings, suggesting a remake of the roof at this late stage in the game may push her over the edge into therapy hence I don't support the idea, the roof is just fine as is.
 
But your second para. is spot on! Getting rid of the louvres and replacing them with double glazed or heat reflective units (at some later stage) would be a sound idea, it doesn't have to be done straight away. The louvres are for air flow and given everything we've discussed thus far, they are now in the wrong place so they must remain closed, otherwise, they will defeat the objectives of what we've already discussed. if they are opened (because they are not on the cool side of the house).

Yes sorry for the post about the roof. I forget how stressed we were with the house and pool build.

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[Kwasaki]

The three roof design as being stated now was discussed in the early proceeding pages.

The house was designed by an architect and the original horseshoe shape construction gave the house natural as far as possible coolness.

A bit like standing in a narrow alleyway.

 

The centre roof being added along with additional rooms defeated the cool design build strategy. 

[Sheryl]

4 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

I suspect Sheryl may be a bit delicate at this stage in the proceedings, suggesting a remake of the roof at this late stage in the game may push her over the edge into therapy hence I don't support the idea, the roof is just fine as is.

 

But your second para. is spot on! Getting rid of the louvres and replacing them with double glazed or heat reflective units (at some later stage) would be a sound idea, it doesn't have to be done straight away. The louvres are for air flow and given everything we've discussed thus far, they are now in the wrong place so they must remain closed, otherwise, they will defeat the objectives of what we've already discussed. if they are opened (because they are not on the cool side of the house).

LOL, don't worry, I'm actually less stressed now than I was at the onset.

 

But indeed, we went through the roof restructuring idea many pages back and rejected it. It is certainly true that the retrofitted 4th roof results in a bad design (and, now that we are working on that area, was done really, really badly and sloppily) but a restructure it is just more than I am up for. Would need to bring in an architect or civil engineer to get the design right, would have to remove and replace all the ceilings (which have all already been replaced once not too long ago) etc etc etc.

 

The louvre windows were selected not for air flow but because of ease of opening from inside the house without having to open the screens or manuever through the security grating.  Of course thsi was 20 years ago and I suppose there are windows now on the market with the screen and grating on the outside such that could still open if from inside and perhaps I will consider this for my bedroom at a later date. Pretty big expense given that I would have to replace the whole unit (window, screen and grating), the all-in-one units I've seen are very expensive.

 

My eaves already extend out a full meter...but that still does nto give enough shade to the upper floor of the house.  What I am trying to figure out is whether it would help more to further extend the eaves below the gables in a straight line or whether what I need is more of a vertical extension i.e. something dropping down a bit.  I may experiment with rigging up some temporary extensions out of bamboo and canvas to see what effect it has, shade-wise. The gable eaves at either end of the house are at a slant so extending them will continue that slant downward but the middle one (badly designed in every way - different workers did it than built the original house) go straight out and I can't extend that line, it would result in a flat projecting surface and the force of the rain on it would surely cause problems. So I would have to angle at least that one down a bit.

 

I did look at the Sunshield things at HomePro - in addition to the ones pictured here earlier (currently on sale, but small in size) they have a large 1.5 m width one but only in dark color. I am toying with getting 2 of those for the west side of the house so as to shield my bedroom window and one set of windows downstairs (the rest of that side of the house is bathrooms). Mainly an aesthetic issue since I likely won't take that approach to the front of the house -- just too expensive and at lower cost I could have an awning that would cover not just the windows but the first floor walls as well, which I assume would accomplish far more in the way of cooling.

 

 

[tutsiwarrior]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

The louvre windows were selected not for air flow but because of ease of opening from inside the house without having to open the screens or manuever through the security grating.  Of course thsi was 20 years ago and I suppose there are windows now on the market with the screen and grating on the outside such that could still open if from inside and perhaps I will consider this for my bedroom at a later date. Pretty big expense given that I would have to replace the whole unit (window, screen and grating), the all-in-one units I've seen are very expensive.

 

 

we had louvred windows installed when we moved in 15 years ago (original construction by previous owner) but the crank assemblies had already broken and were worthless...the wife got nice aluminum sliding windows installed with screens and etc by a local dude...cheap and easy...

 

we always got the AC on when sleeping so that they're never open anyway...ooohhh, just so nice and cuddly under the duvet...

 

 

[simoh1490]

An unrelated question from me, if you'll allow:

 

I'm constructing brick walls around my flower beds, tree rings in effect. The diameter is 2 meteres, the brick is an angled red brick that measures 15x9x3cms, four courses high, about 180 bricks in total. There's not much weight involved in the wall but the ground is not stable, it's reclaimed paddy land and during the rainy season the ground gets saturated, hence, some movement to be expected in the wall. The brick courses will be laid semi-dry, just tacked on the inside with mortar but dry on the front so no real extra weight from the cement.

 

I've dug a channel slightly wider than the bricks and about three inches deep, should I use concrete or a strong cement mix for the footing?

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

An unrelated question from me, if you'll allow:

 

I'm constructing brick walls around my flower beds, tree rings in effect. The diameter is 2 meteres, the brick is an angled red brick that measures 15x9x3cms, four courses high, about 180 bricks in total. There's not much weight involved in the wall but the ground is not stable, it's reclaimed paddy land and during the rainy season the ground gets saturated, hence, some movement to be expected in the wall. The brick courses will be laid semi-dry, just tacked on the inside with mortar but dry on the front so no real extra weight from the cement.

 

I've dug a channel slightly wider than the bricks and about three inches deep, should I use concrete or a strong cement mix for the footing?

Estimating long time use foundation posts maybe over the top but not knowing what the ground is like if clay just using a concrete cage will do fine. 

 

[simoh1490]

Just now, Kwasaki said:

Estimating long time use foundation posts maybe over the top but not knowing what the ground is like if clay just using a concrete cage will do fine. 

 

Eeeek!

 

Probably is overkill for what I need, I think I'll just go with a six inch concrete base since it wont be load bearing plus it's circular.

[Kwasaki]

9 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Eeeek!

 

Probably is overkill for what I need, I think I'll just go with a six inch concrete base since it wont be load bearing plus it's circular.

Well we don't mess about on the farm practical and ready made. 

 

[simoh1490]

Hey Sheryl, how's the roof coming along, are you done yet, we're getting geared up for the celebratory party.