Australian gold mining company takes legal action against Thailand

[maximillian]

22 hours ago, farcanell said:

Exploitation?

 

how?

 

wasnt a deal made under an agreed treaty?

 

this is called business.... a business whereby shareholders are now being cheated on the return on their investment.

 

the suing should be against the powers that have tried to change the agreement without proper consultation.... not against the powers that made what was deemed to be a fair deal at the time

 

if government mismanagement can be proven, then those Thai people should be hauled up on charges.

 

A fair deal ?  I don't believe that.  Bribes and corruption ain't fair deal.

Selling a countries ressourses to a foreign company isn't fair towards the own people.

And the poor shareholders...  shedding no tear for them; they took the risk.

[farcanell]

16 minutes ago, maximillian said:

 

A fair deal ?  I don't believe that.  Bribes and corruption ain't fair deal.

Selling a countries ressourses to a foreign company isn't fair towards the own people.

And the poor shareholders...  shedding no tear for them; they took the risk.

Seemingly you have more information than everyone else about the actual nature of what went into the negotiations for a multinational country to open a mining operation within Thailand.

 

”selling a countries resources..... “ etc is a naive concept. Regardless of who mined them, the rousourses would be still be sold.... you assume, (perhaps per paragraph one, above) that The Australian company would return less to the country than a wholly owned Thai company.

 

you don’t have to shed a tear for the shareholders, if you don’t want to.... some of these being pensioners investing life savings ( ok... gambling if you want) in a legitimate enterprise to hopefully better their life, whilst providing jobs in a foreign country, but now seemingly being cheated by a general with self appointed dictatorial powers... but you could sympathize a little, as losses are not solely born by the locals (still awaiting proof of that loss, by the way, as Thai authorities and medical experts ruled against local claims)

 

anyway... my response to you in regards to your claims about exploitation... please feel free to demonstrate how the deal was unfair, and if so, I would be interested in who made it unfair (thai vs Thai, or Australian company verses Thai)

 

normal (legally entitled) protocol was ignored... trashed... spat on. But I do appreciate your bleeding heart towards those that you personally see as the victims.... that’s cool too

[FritsSikkink]

6 hours ago, Cadbury said:

Both Kitchensink and Goldfinger are starting to sound like cracked records. They know the facts but just refuse to accept them because they don't fit their personal points of view. Now they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to try to save their arguments.

No hope I am afraid. Kingsgate's got PM Prayut and the Thai government by the short and curlies.

Kingskate will get nothing. who will force them to pay?

[GOLDBUGGY]

7 hours ago, Cadbury said:

Both Kitchensink and Goldfinger are starting to sound like cracked records. They know the facts but just refuse to accept them because they don't fit their personal points of view. Now they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel to try to save their arguments.

No hope I am afraid. Kingsgate's got PM Prayut and the Thai government by the short and curlies.

Well if this is how you really feel then good luck to you and Kingsgate in your 3 or 4 year Arbitration Process. Should they also by chance win, then trying to collect that to.

 

Just wondering how Kingsgate plans to survive that long paying for this and everything else when that don't have any other Gold Mine or money coming in?

[Cadbury]

Just now, GOLDBUGGY said:

Well if this is how you really feel then good luck to you and Kingsgate in your 3 or 4 year Arbitration Process. Should they also by chance win, then trying to collect that to.

 

Just wondering how Kingsgate plans to survive that long paying for this and everything else when that don't have any other Gold Mine or money coming in?

You're up late Goldfinger. Way past your bedtime. Goodnight, don't stress yourself worrying about Kingsgate and give your pillow a hug. Sleep well. 

[GOLDBUGGY]

13 minutes ago, Cadbury said:

You're up late Goldfinger. Way past your bedtime. Goodnight, don't stress yourself worrying about Kingsgate and give your pillow a hug. Sleep well. 

Well this time I agree with you. It is just going to end as usual with a bunch of Thai Bashers bashing anything about them with no rym or reason behind anything they say.

[MadMuhammad]

18 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Well if this is how you really feel then good luck to you and Kingsgate in your 3 or 4 year Arbitration Process. Should they also by chance win, then trying to collect that to.

 

Just wondering how Kingsgate plans to survive that long paying for this and everything else when that don't have any other Gold Mine or money coming in?

The have another mine in Chile with outstanding prospects. They also have a substantial dent facility on hands at the moment. 

Long term what does this mean, if Yu can tell me that you’d be the guru. 

I still feel this arbitration has been entered into lightly or without due dilligence. I’m sticking with my holding and gonna see which way the chart heads over time 

[GOLDBUGGY]

25 minutes ago, MadMuhammad said:

The have another mine in Chile with outstanding prospects. They also have a substantial dent facility on hands at the moment. 

Long term what does this mean, if Yu can tell me that you’d be the guru. 

I still feel this arbitration has been entered into lightly or without due dilligence. I’m sticking with my holding and gonna see which way the chart heads over time 

Yes, they have potential prospects in Chile, but no mine like you said. They are just doing the drilling and before a feasibility study to determine if this prospect is worthy of a mine. If in the future it turns out this could be a Gold Mine, then it will still take another 5 to 10 years to get all the permits and build the mine.

 

In the mean time they don't have any money coming in from any Gold Mines but yet they are still paying high wages for all there Management Staff, Drilling in Chile, and expensive Legal Fees for this Arbitration. So where is all this money supposed to come from?

 

The answer is simple. By selling many more company shares that are now Pennies on the Dollar. So as a Shareholder, what do you think this will do to your stock price? I don't have to be a Guru to be able to figure this out, and neither do you. Sure the ones who buy huge quantities of this stock are the stock price quote, plus the option to buy twice as many at half this price will make money. The Management Staff will still get paid there high wages, and benefits, so they will do okay to. But not so for the average stock holder. I can't count how many times this happens with stock holders holding nothing more than hope. .

 

Look at it this another way. This mine in Thailand was given back to Kingsgate in August. In the last year of production, if I recall correctly, it produced about 125,000 Ounce of Gold and about 850,000 Ounces of Silver. The Cash Cost of this mine is quite high, and again if I recall was around $900 / Ounce. But they were still making a profit of about $300 / Ounce of Gold Equivalent.

 

So now my question to you. If this company can't come up with the $50 Million Dollars to re-open this proven mine and get it up and running in 5 months, how are they going to come up with 5 or 10 times this amount of money to build a new mine in Chile, that will take at least 5 years before it turns a profit?

 

Oh Yeah! I almost forgot. Kingsgate it taking Thailand to Arbitration. Then here is an interesting story about this and a company called "Crystallex" who had it's 20 Million Ounce Gold Mine taken away by the Venezuela Government in 2008 under Hugo Chavez. There stock price dropped from just over $10 a Share to Pennies! Since they have been actively suing the Venezuela Government through Arbitration and US Courts to recover there money, and winning in most cases, there stock price has risen back to $3 a Share.

 

If you are prepared to wait for 10 years, and watch your stock get cut into small pieces, and yet hold, you could make some money here. Provided the company does win Arbitration, which hasn't been proven yet. But no matter how you see it, you are trying to catch a falling knife right now. Good Luck!

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-crystallex/crystallex-wins-u-s-court-order-to-seize-venezuela-funds-idUSKCN1B527D

[MadMuhammad]

1 hour ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Yes, they have potential prospects in Chile, but no mine like you said. They are just doing the drilling and before a feasibility study to determine if this prospect is worthy of a mine. If in the future it turns out this could be a Gold Mine, then it will still take another 5 to 10 years to get all the permits and build the mine.

 

In the mean time they don't have any money coming in from any Gold Mines but yet they are still paying high wages for all there Management Staff, Drilling in Chile, and expensive Legal Fees for this Arbitration. So where is all this money supposed to come from?

 

The answer is simple. By selling many more company shares that are now Pennies on the Dollar. So as a Shareholder, what do you think this will do to your stock price? I don't have to be a Guru to be able to figure this out, and neither do you. Sure the ones who buy huge quantities of this stock are the stock price quote, plus the option to buy twice as many at half this price will make money. The Management Staff will still get paid there high wages, and benefits, so they will do okay to. But not so for the average stock holder. I can't count how many times this happens with stock holders holding nothing more than hope. .

 

Look at it this another way. This mine in Thailand was given back to Kingsgate in August. In the last year of production, if I recall correctly, it produced about 125,000 Ounce of Gold and about 850,000 Ounces of Silver. The Cash Cost of this mine is quite high, and again if I recall was around $900 / Ounce. But they were still making a profit of about $300 / Ounce of Gold Equivalent.

 

So now my question to you. If this company can't come up with the $50 Million Dollars to re-open this proven mine and get it up and running in 5 months, how are they going to come up with 5 or 10 times this amount of money to build a new mine in Chile, that will take at least 5 years before it turns a profit?

 

Oh Yeah! I almost forgot. Kingsgate it taking Thailand to Arbitration. Then here is an interesting story about this and a company called "Crystallex" who had it's 20 Million Ounce Gold Mine taken away by the Venezuela Government in 2008 under Hugo Chavez. There stock price dropped from just over $10 a Share to Pennies! Since they have been actively suing the Venezuela Government through Arbitration and US Courts to recover there money, and winning in most cases, there stock price has risen back to $3 a Share.

 

If you are prepared to wait for 10 years, and watch your stock get cut into small pieces, and yet hold, you could make some money here. Provided the company does win Arbitration, which hasn't been proven yet. But no matter how you see it, you are trying to catch a falling knife right now. Good Luck!

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-crystallex/crystallex-wins-u-s-court-order-to-seize-venezuela-funds-idUSKCN1B527D

All very valid points and I don’t discount the facts that Chile is a way off and the money pit regarding arbitration is not infinite. 

I cant help but speculate that the legal costs have been factored into the equation somewhere and the expectant result will be in KCN’’s favour, otherwise it is one of the biggest corporate gambles I’ve been involved in via investing.

 

Yes, I am prepared to wait 10 years and ride the stock price. I got in @ 13c a little while ago when I felt it had bottomed. I’m riding a substantial gain now it has reached 47c but I’m of the feeling if KCN get a win either way regarding Chatree and Nuevo Esperanza comes on line this could easily return to $1+.

 

If, as many are speculating, it does dog it my holding was a pure gamble and I was prepared to take a hit should I be wrong. Personally I think the upside based on the information I can glean far outweighs the negative considering the penny cost of a ticket on the ride.

 

I thank you also for your in depth analysis of KCN. I’m only a rookie investor and your comments are very educational.

Edited November 4, 2017 by MadMuhammad

[Elkski]

12 hours ago, Aussieroaming said:

Kingsgate are a Cyanide Code Signatory and to become a signatory you have to have demostrated through practice that your operation controls all stages of cyanide handling, use and disposal and that the waste disposal cyanide concentration is always below the permitted international threshhold. Having participated in getting a gold processing facility accepted as a cyanide code signatory I understand without a shadow of a doubt that Kingsgate wouldn't have been discharging any cyanide related waste or wastewater. The auditing is all carried out by a third party and is extremely comprehensive. If I had any concerns in regards to the emissions from a mine like Chatree it would more likely be environmental disturbance or dust related pollution. Cyanide is used to leach the ore and is then subsequently destroyed prior to discharging into the tailings empoundment and Kingsgate wouldnt have passed their audits if they couldn't conclusively prove that their Cyanide Destruction Treatment Process was producing waste water within tolerance. For those interested in understanding the rigors imposed on responsible mining companies the following link assists http://www.cyanidecode.org/about-cyanide-code/faq

 

For those who prefer to scaremonger about cyanide then please at least take the time to understand the effort it takes for responsible miners to obtain and achieve this level of compliance. 

 

Based on my experience in Asia it usually small illegal miners working outside the lease boundary's that are the real problem, as they pollute the water ways with cyanide and mercury and are completelly uncontrolled.

 

Sounds so good in theory.. but in practice who knows what happens during the darkness of night or during a heavy rain? your telling me the monitoring equipment never went down or needed calibration.  It seems like blood testing of the local population would have been a smart baseline to obtain... but oh wait that effects profit..  I'm not saying they didn't know how to transform the cyanide to a safe effluent level but did they for the entire time.... I bet no one knows.   I am just saying I never trust big corporations to do the right thing...

But its quite possible that these minerals were in the native soil in this area.  Either way this is going to be a big black eye on Thailand and will undoubtedly effect future investment. If the arbitrators rules against Thailand and they don't pay why would the Chinese feel they have any protections in the high speed train project.   And if they don;t they will require other assurances.   

I dont see how you can say they sold the mineral or gave them away....  Thailand didn't have any company with the money or knowledge to open this mine.. no matter who operates the mine there are royalties paid to a countries government.   I'm sure it did irk many people to see such amounts of gold and silver taken and profited by a company other than  from a Thailand company.   

 

[joecoolfrog]

On Friday, November 03, 2017 at 3:38 AM, emanphoto said:

Yes. never mind the health problems of the locals due to mine runoff.  Lets make $.   Profits before people!

 

"The cabinet decided this month to halt all gold mining and exploration nationwide by the end of the year over health concerns.

HEAVY METALS IN THE BLOOD
About 400 residents of both provinces have been found to have unusually high levels of heavy metals in their blood.

Akara Resources and its Australian owner, Kingsgate Consolidated, denied that its 1,200-rai mining operation used toxic substances to extract the gold ore.

TRIP TO BANGKOK COURT TO FILE LAWSUIT

The Lawyers Council of Thailand brought some 30 residents representing the plaintiffs' group to the Civil Court on Ratchadaphisek Road in Bangkok.

The 300 residents were from the tambon of Thai Dong in Phetchabun's Wang Pong district and Khao Jed Luk in Phichit's Thab Khlo district.

The residents demand compensation of 1.58 million baht each and a 50-million-baht contribution by the company to an environmental clean-up fund.

The compensation is for medical treatment, health deterioration, household survival and lost benefits from natural resources.

Attorney Phadungsak Thianphairoj said more villagers are likely to join the class-action lawsuit.

GOLD MINING SPEED-UP BEFORE END-OF-YEAR BAN

The government has ordered Akara to halt gold-mining by the end of the year.

Due to this deadline, there could be more fallout from accelerated operations, lawyer Somchai Ameen said. 

If work is sped up, the plaintiffs would seek a court injunction to prevent such activities."

 

 

But the 64 million dollar question is ;

Would the mine have been closed if it were owned by an influential Thai individual or conglomerate ?

[GOLDBUGGY]

3 hours ago, MadMuhammad said:

All very valid points and I don’t discount the facts that Chile is a way off and the money pit regarding arbitration is not infinite. 

I cant help but speculate that the legal costs have been factored into the equation somewhere and the expectant result will be in KCN’’s favour, otherwise it is one of the biggest corporate gambles I’ve been involved in via investing.

 

Yes, I am prepared to wait 10 years and ride the stock price. I got in @ 13c a little while ago when I felt it had bottomed. I’m riding a substantial gain now it has reached 47c but I’m of the feeling if KCN get a win either way regarding Chatree and Nuevo Esperanza comes on line this could easily return to $1+.

 

If, as many are speculating, it does dog it my holding was a pure gamble and I was prepared to take a hit should I be wrong. Personally I think the upside based on the information I can glean far outweighs the negative considering the penny cost of a ticket on the ride.

 

I thank you also for your in depth analysis of KCN. I’m only a rookie investor and your comments are very educational.

My advice to you is that if you bought this stock at 13c and can sell it for 47c, then take your profit and run. You will still have bragging rights at the kitchen table as very few can make 300% Profit in a few months or less.

 

I told you that Crystallex had a share price of $10 before the start of all this, and now has a share price of about $3. But what I never told you was all the consolidations they were forced to do with there stock to prevent Penny Stocks and going Bankrupt. Trading 10 shares for 1 share is consolidation. So this $3 may actually be 30c or less. At 100 shares for 1 makes it 3c. 

 

No! Legal Cost are not factored into this equation. How can they be? If you read about Crystallex they not only took this to Arbitration, and had to win that first. They also Sued Venezuela in China, Japan, and also the United States. How can that be factored in from the start?

 

You did the right thing and seemed to buy this stock at a low price. But that is not what will make you a success. You also need to sell this stock higher than what you paid for it, to be a success. Waiting for a Dollar Share Price is just greed, that will cut your own throat one day. Many stocks especially Gold Mining Stocks have been over $5 and sit Bankrupt today. Selling at 5c a share, but nobody willing to buy even at that price. I have a list as long as your arm.

 

I gave you Crystallex as an example as I used to own this stock and sold out at $6 when it was on it's way down for $10, and people were shocked Venezuela took that huge Gold Mine away from them. But I bought in at $2 so I was happy. After I sold it dropped to Pennies, so I was very happy to get what I got. But because of my previous interest I kept one eye on it and followed it through and during the hard times. Which makes it about 10 years now.  

 

But Crystallex never gave up and fought Venezuela in Arbitration, and then through other courts in Japan, China, and the USA. I never really thought they would do this so my hat is off to them. But then they are fighting for a claim of about 1.2 Billion Dollars from this Gold Mine, plus interest. Which they have not collect on as yet. Kingsgate is fighting for 50 Million. A very big difference. So I highly doubt they will take it as far as Crystallex did.  

 

Don't be Greedy! Take your huge profit and run!

[GOLDBUGGY]

15 hours ago, Cadbury said:

I couldn't be bothered reading much after that comment. What on earth has the UK and the UK Prime Minister got to do with Thailand.

With Thailand government anything goes whenever the time is most opportunistic; most people know that.

 

That is arrant nonsense. PM Prayut shut it down using Article 44. How many times do you have to be told. I give up!

 

Whether it is Article 44, or Article 944, it doesn't matter! Any Government and any Prime Minister from that Government from any part of this World, has the right to shut down any Gold Mine, if they feel there people are in Danger. What part of that do you not understand?

 

But I am glad you are giving up and off to bed. I think a good place to be for you.   

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 hour ago, joecoolfrog said:

But the 64 million dollar question is ;

Would the mine have been closed if it were owned by an influential Thai individual or conglomerate ?

The answer to your question is very simple, so I will only charge you $1.

 

Yes! And No!

 

Yes! The mine would have been closed no matter who owned it.

 

But No, because no Thai Individual has the Technology needed to operate a Gold Mine. This was the only operating Gold Mine in Thailand. So we are not talking about opening a new 7-11 Store here. If Thailand wanted to send a Man to the Moon next week, do you think they could do all this on there own right now?

 

So when they agree to a Gold Mine, they also are paying for the Technology and Experience to Operate one. People talk about giving there resources away. But in reality it is just a hill until someone else can turn that into a profit.

 

Getting 1,000 Workers to work on good paying jobs, and collecting a nice Royalty, is far better than just a hill. But then they also expect this one with this Technology to stay within the rules and keep the Environment Safe. Being left with a polluted Gold Mine Site is not good for any country. So they have to be careful as Gold Mine have a Bad Name to begin with.

 

 

[steven100]

I am familiar with this gold mine and the court case ensuing.

It's not just Thailand owning a piece of dirt and the Aussie company leasing the dirt of them  .....  It's all the work and know how to get the mine running properly to enable a profit.

Thailand doesn't know how to mine gold properly and the Aussie company does. It's getting x amount of gold from x amount of dirt ...

[GOLDBUGGY]

1 minute ago, steven100 said:

I am familiar with this gold mine and the court case ensuing.

It's not just Thailand owning a piece of dirt and the Aussie company leasing the dirt of them  .....  It's all the work and know how to get the mine running properly to enable a profit.

Thailand doesn't know how to mine gold properly and the Aussie company does. It's getting x amount of gold from x amount of dirt ...

I believe this is exactly like I said. So I am glad you agree with me. But I am not sure what your point is, as I am sure it was not to agree with me.

 

That Governments should give up the safety and health of there citizens just so there Government can make money from a Hill that they do not know how to turn into a Gold Mine?

[Aussieroaming]

4 hours ago, Elkski said:

Sounds so good in theory.. but in practice who knows what happens during the darkness of night or during a heavy rain? your telling me the monitoring equipment never went down or needed calibration.  It seems like blood testing of the local population would have been a smart baseline to obtain... but oh wait that effects profit..  I'm not saying they didn't know how to transform the cyanide to a safe effluent level but did they for the entire time.... I bet no one knows.   I am just saying I never trust big corporations to do the right thing...

But its quite possible that these minerals were in the native soil in this area.  Either way this is going to be a big black eye on Thailand and will undoubtedly effect future investment. If the arbitrators rules against Thailand and they don't pay why would the Chinese feel they have any protections in the high speed train project.   And if they don;t they will require other assurances.   

I dont see how you can say they sold the mineral or gave them away....  Thailand didn't have any company with the money or knowledge to open this mine.. no matter who operates the mine there are royalties paid to a countries government.   I'm sure it did irk many people to see such amounts of gold and silver taken and profited by a company other than  from a Thailand company.   

 

For code compliant signatory's (which isn't mandatory) there isnt any incentive to lie or cheat. To cheat means keeping multiple sets of books, altering figures in databases and hard copy documents etc, very easy to pick up in the audit. For company's who arent audited, not divulging an environmental release is easier but inherently risky. You will also find that in big company's the top tier management team might be dumb enough to try and hide incidents but that sentiment and ideology is rarely followed by the general workforce because there are no benefits to the general workforce in doing that, hence word of environmental incidents can't be contained by underhanded management teams. Thailand has company's or consortiums big enough to raise 5-800M to fund a project and kick off a gold mine, its more whether they want to take the risk associated with that type of venture, when it isnt the core type of business that they are used to funding and managing. Also bankers or project financiers tend to lend to company's with previous relevant experience, hence why Kingsgate is the majority share holder, as it has the right background and experience to reduce the risk to the financiers.I havent looked at the shareholder spread of the project but it would surprise me if there weren't Thai company's holding reasonable stakeholdings.

[GOLDBUGGY]

20 hours ago, Srikcir said:

Wrong.

Unless there is international contract law allowed by the trade agreement, ie., under the World Trade Organization.

One last time - the laws of a nation as a signatory do not apply to the subject trade agreement except for example with regard to the operating license in the subject case. Any alleged contract violation in the Australia-Thailand Free Trade Agreement that cannot be reconciled between Kingsgate and Thailand (which it has not) can only be addressed according to the remedies specified in the ATFTA. Australia and Thailand contract laws are irrelevant except to an extent provided under the ATFTA.

Please read the AFTA cited in my post #50.

Oh Yeah!

 

Please check out this link that really happened and applies to an Arbitration Case going on 10 year now. Instead of just your Blah! Blah! Blah! and I know everything attitude. It may enlighten you.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-crystallex/crystallex-wins-u-s-court-order-to-seize-venezuela-funds-idUSKCN1B527D

 

What you said was that with Free Trade, Legal Action, or Contracts in other countries cannot be used in Arbitration and has no legal effect.

 

I say: Like a Pig's Patoony it doesn't!

 

Read an actual case on this as I posted instead of listening to talk around the Beer Table.

[Cadbury]

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

Thailand doesn't know how to mine gold properly

The fact of the matter this present government doesn't know much about running anything properly let alone a gold mine. There is a relevant story in today's Thaivisa about this government and the economy which you should read.

WARNING: Make sure you have your huggie rug and your hanky ready. This story could cause you some distress.

 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Cadbury

[AboutThaim]

23 hours ago, FritsSikkink said:

According to the doctors of those people there was

Do doctors take brown envelopes too?  Do they all work for the government?

[ExpatOilWorker]

2 hours ago, Cadbury said:

The fact of the matter this present government doesn't know much about running anything properly let alone a gold mine. There is a relevant story in today's Thaivisa about this government and the economy which you should read.

WARNING: Make sure you have your huggie rug and your hanky ready. This story could cause you some distress.

 

U have a link to that story?

[Cadbury]

1 minute ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

U have a link to that story?