Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge

[JungleBiker]

1 minute ago, khwaibah said:

 

Thai Danish Farm http://www.dpo.go.th or Farm Chokchai  http://www.farmchokchai.com/en/index_content.php?content_id=29

 

Nope. I doubt they are getting good milk yields because they are too low (= too hot). 

[farmerjo]

I used to have a bit to do with export oaten hay out of Australia that was sent to asian countries.

Farmers baled it in 8x4x4 bales then it was sent to the exporter where it was unbaled then put into huge presses to compress it into a couple of blocks to fill a shipping container.

Oaten hay is about 7 percent protein so i guess it had to be packed tighter for transport compared to small bales of alalfa at 15 percent.Still in a country where margins are minimal you would think there was a more viable option to get the alalfa here cheaper unless it is coming in bulk then being rebaled here.

[JungleBiker]

20 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Purple guinea is declining in popularity because of leaf diseases. I have just released another new guinea grass this year. Named it Mun River guinea grass after the big river here in Ubon. 

 

Thanks for letting me know that the 44,000 baht worth of your Purple Guinea seed that I recently purchased is prone to leaf diseases.

 

You might want to Google: Post Purchase Cognitive Dissonance 

 

[grollies]

1 hour ago, JungleBiker said:

 

Thanks for letting me know that the 44,000 baht worth of your Purple Guinea seed that I recently purchased is prone to leaf diseases.

 

You might want to Google: Post Purchase Cognitive Dissonance 

 

Ouch.

[grollies]

6 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

 

Thanks for letting me know that the 44,000 baht worth of your Purple Guinea seed that I recently purchased is prone to leaf diseases.

 

You might want to Google: Post Purchase Cognitive Dissonance 

 

Eagerly awaiting the apologetic reply and offer of exchanging your Purple Guinea seeds for the Mun River variety.

 

Go for it @Michael Hare

[farmerjo]

I'm no scientist but i think every variety of seed succumbs to some form of disease over time and depending on the season.Most can be controlled if monitered.A  lot depends on plant density,spacings,rainfall,weather etc.

What do you look for in a seed variety?

High yield,strong stem,rust resilient,no leaf disease.

You vary rarely get all you want in one.

Just my opinion.

[JungleBiker]

10 hours ago, farmerjo said:

I'm no scientist but i think every variety of seed succumbs to some form of disease over time and depending on the season.Most can be controlled if monitered.A  lot depends on plant density,spacings,rainfall,weather etc.

What do you look for in a seed variety?

High yield,strong stem,rust resilient,no leaf disease.

You vary rarely get all you want in one.

Just my opinion.

Well, in this case, since it will not be grown for animal forage, high yield and strong stem are not important, but it would be good if the grass did not succumb to disease.  

[kickstart]

On 6/13/2018 at 5:56 AM, JungleBiker said:

I can't mention any names but I know there is a large dairy farm in northeast Thailand that is owned by a major company and is getting very good milk yields (I can look up the yields if anyone is interested). They are importing container loads of the above product (bales of alfalfa hay from USA) to feed their cows. I guess they pay far less than the above retail price. Perhaps the above bales were imported by the same company. 

1

If it is the company I think it is they yields are good 18-20kg/cow/day ?,and they are milking 300 cows?,  which is good for Thailand, they manager is a Farang I meet the guy last year, he knows his cows.

 Buying in the imported hay, I  did not know, they use to feed Nappier grass, may still do .but not as much  .                         I live only 50 km from  Mortlec  and Packchon, and Chok Chie is another 40 km up the road, all 3 areas have a lot of cows  I have been up they in the new year on more than one occasion, and it is a top coat cooler than where I am,they must have more rain than us as they always seem to have grass growing ,but the do some irrigating .

At the Thai annual dairy show at Mortlec ,they have a 4day milking competition, cow that gives the most milk wins , one very frequent winner comes from Packchon. 

Back in 1963 the king of Denmark gave our late King 50 Danish red cows, the Thai DLD said Mortlec ,would be good for cows being a bit cooler, they still had big problems namely tick fever, a good few died, no resistance to tick fever,but heat-wise not much of a problem.

That is where the Thai -Danish milk brand name come from, the red cow and calf logo comes from the Danish red cattle. 

[kickstart]

On 6/13/2018 at 9:46 AM, farmerjo said:

I used to have a bit to do with export oaten hay out of Australia that was sent to asian countries.

Farmers baled it in 8x4x4 bales then it was sent to the exporter where it was unbaled then put into huge presses to compress it into a couple of blocks to fill a shipping container.

Oaten hay is about 7 percent protein so i guess it had to be packed tighter for transport compared to small bales of alalfa at 15 percent.Still in a country where margins are minimal you would think there was a more viable option to get the alalfa here cheaper unless it is coming in bulk then being rebaled here.

Why Thailand has to import hay beats me ,the alfalfa hay I looked at looked all stem and no leaf ,it is the leaf were protein is ,not the stem  I would say it would be no more than 9-11 % protein when the likes of Mombasa Guinea grass and Mulato II will ,if grown right will give you a fed of 10% .

And do not start on carbon footprints etc etc ,of sending a container of hay halfway around the world. 

[George Bowman]

Beef in Thailand has always confused me.  Around our place, there is a handful of farmers who raise small beef herds. They sell to some middleman from Bangkok. So where does the beef from these scraggly herds end up?

 

Throughout the years, I have eaten in tons of shops that sell Thai food and very seldom do I see beef on the menu. 

[JungleBiker]

3 hours ago, missoura said:

Beef in Thailand has always confused me.  Around our place, there is a handful of farmers who raise small beef herds. They sell to some middleman from Bangkok. So where does the beef from these scraggly herds end up?

 

Throughout the years, I have eaten in tons of shops that sell Thai food and very seldom do I see beef on the menu. 

 

 

I've heard that a lot of beef animals go to places near Bangkok where they are finished in feedlots. Besides steaks, I think a lot of beef goes into meatballs used in certain kinds of noodle soup (like "kwetio reua"). 

 

[JungleBiker]

On 6/16/2018 at 6:59 PM, kickstart said:

And do not start on carbon footprints etc etc ,of sending a container of hay halfway around the world. 

 

There is a lot of container traffic going from Asia to USA carrying consumer goods like T-shirts and iPhones, etc, that would otherwise come back empty. US alfalfa exporters can get very cheap rates shipping their hay to Asia. 

[JungleBiker]

On 6/15/2018 at 6:48 PM, kickstart said:

If it is the company I think it is they yields are good 18-20kg/cow/day ?,and they are milking 300 cows?,  which is good for Thailand, they manager is a Farang I meet the guy last year, he knows his cows.

 Buying in the imported hay, I  did not know, they use to feed Nappier grass, may still do .but not as much  .                         I live only 50 km from  Mortlec  and Packchon, and Chok Chie is another 40 km up the road, all 3 areas have a lot of cows  I have been up they in the new year on more than one occasion, and it is a top coat cooler than where I am,they must have more rain than us as they always seem to have grass growing ,but the do some irrigating .

At the Thai annual dairy show at Mortlec ,they have a 4day milking competition, cow that gives the most milk wins , one very frequent winner comes from Packchon. 

Back in 1963 the king of Denmark gave our late King 50 Danish red cows, the Thai DLD said Mortlec ,would be good for cows being a bit cooler, they still had big problems namely tick fever, a good few died, no resistance to tick fever,but heat-wise not much of a problem.

That is where the Thai -Danish milk brand name come from, the red cow and calf logo comes from the Danish red cattle. 

 

Is the company you are thinking of (with 300 cows and foreign manager) in the area you talk about (between Saraburi and Korat)?

 

[CLW]

 
I've heard that a lot of beef animals go to places near Bangkok where they are finished in feedlots. Besides steaks, I think a lot of beef goes into meatballs used in certain kinds of noodle soup (like "kwetio reua"). 
 

And other processed food that contains beef such as burger patties etc.

[kickstart]

10 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

 

Is the company you are thinking of (with 300 cows and foreign manager) in the area you talk about (between Saraburi and Korat)?

 

Sakon Nakhon is where this farm is.

There use to be a farang owned a dairy farm near Seekue, not far from Packchon,Korat , but he sold up 7-8 years ago, I know that a dairy farmer friend of mine near here brought some of his cows.

[kickstart]

11 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

 

I've heard that a lot of beef animals go to places near Bangkok where they are finished in feedlots. Besides steaks, I think a lot of beef goes into meatballs used in certain kinds of noodle soup (like "kwetio reua"). 

 

2

There are some feed lots in Patomtanie provence  , just north of Bangkok I found an article on a Thai beef feed lot in a Thai farming magazin Mrs. KS read some of it to me ,they seemed to buy stock in  and fatten them up, for up to a year, from the magazin photographs they are all Brahaman x breeds, a lot of Indo  Brazil blood in them, so they will not get that fat and they feeding,  I think it was a 14% concentrat, and they were feeding cassava wast, protien 1.9% ,75 % water, and rice straw, not a ration  to make anything fat,they  were thing only of costs ,at the time cassava wast was only 20-30 stang /kg ,haulage cost more , and the wife said a few die, and they were not certain why,I would say rumen acidoses, due to over feeding of cassava wast,so some management is needed they .

They is also a big slaughterhouse in Patomtahie, a farmer near here used to work they, he said they could slaughter a couple of hundred stock a day, a lot of the meat will go into, Look -Chin, meatballs. 

As for stakes, well I would say they stakes  would be like what the op brought and photographed on here, like chewing on car tyers    

[kickstart]

11 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

 

I've heard that a lot of beef animals go to places near Bangkok where they are finished in feedlots. Besides steaks, I think a lot of beef goes into meatballs used in certain kinds of noodle soup (like "kwetio reua"). 

 

2

There are some feed lots in Patomtanie provence  , just north of Bangkok I found an article on a Thai beef feed lot in a Thai farming magazin Mrs. KS read some of it to me ,they seemed to buy stock in  and fatten them up, for up to a year, from the magazin photographs they are all Brahaman x breeds, a lot of Indo  Brazil blood in them, so they will not get that fat and they feeding,  I think it was a 14% concentrat, and they were feeding cassava wast, protien 1.9% ,75 % water, and rice straw, not a ration  to make anything fat,they  were thing only of costs ,at the time cassava wast was only 20-30 stang /kg ,haulage cost more , and the wife said a few die, and they were not certain why,I would say rumen acidoses, due to over feeding of cassava wast,so some management is needed they .

They is also a big slaughterhouse in Patomtahie, a farmer near here used to work they, he said they could slaughter a couple of hundred stock a day, a lot of the meat will go into, Look -Chin, meatballs. 

As for stakes, well I would say they stakes  would be like what the op brought and photographed on here, like chewing on car tyers    

[JungleBiker]

On 6/19/2018 at 5:33 PM, kickstart said:

Sakon Nakhon is where this farm is.

There use to be a farang owned a dairy farm near Seekue, not far from Packchon,Korat , but he sold up 7-8 years ago, I know that a dairy farmer friend of mine near here brought some of his cows.

 

I know a large dairy farm in the Sakon Nakhon area, owned by Malee and managed by a German guy but I think it has 1,000 head. So I am not sure if it is the same farm you are referring to. 

 

The farm I was talking about, with high milk yields, is in a higher and cooler part of Isaan than the places you've mentioned. 

[kickstart]

7 hours ago, JungleBiker said:

 

I know a large dairy farm in the Sakon Nakhon area, owned by Malee and managed by a German guy but I think it has 1,000 head. So I am not sure if it is the same farm you are referring to. 

 

The farm I was talking about, with high milk yields, is in a higher and cooler part of Isaan than the places you've mentioned. 

That is the same place, they are up to 1000 cows, they have increased in numbers I suppose that is why they are importing hay (if it is them), finding enough feed in Issan for 1000 cows, plus calves, and heifers, cannot be easy.

Malee use to be a big player here in Thailand, in the milk industry, they even built a new factory in Ayutthaya, then they got flooded out in the big floods, then so I  was told, they collected the insurance money and closed down.

They  old factory was in Bangkok  shoehorned in between other buildings, down near the port they had a warehouse, full of imported milk powder ,and when I was they  once, there was  2 Thai's on top of a mixer emptying 50 kg bags of milk powder in the mixer,as fast as they could for reconstituting it in to  milk, at the time all bound for the flavored milk market.

But the fresh milk market was they main market.

[kickstart]

A lot has been written about Nappier grass, and this photo, is how not  to manage it  , this is part of a 20 rie field they use a large  chopper to cut it, and as Michal Hare said, more than once,  even when chopped up cattle  will still have a long  job digesting all this hard fiber ,and then they will not get anything out of it ,protein will not  more than 4-5 %, at the most ,and this field does not receive a lot of fertilizer, or any manure.

Nappier grass should not be more than 45 days old at cutting, to get the best out of it. 

[CLW]

A lot has been written about Nappier grass, and this photo, is how not  to manage it  , this is part of a 20 rie field they use a large  chopper to cut it, and as Michal Hare said, more than once,  even when chopped up cattle  will still have a long  job digesting all this hard fiber ,and then they will not get anything out of it ,protein will not  more than 4-5 %, at the most ,and this field does not receive a lot of fertilizer, or any manure.
Nappier grass should not be more than 45 days old at cutting, to get the best out of it. 

The picture is a very good (or bad) example.
The thinking here is more mass = more value not taking any nutrients in this calculation.
The same reason that I don't understand the purpose of feeding rice straw.
In Europe it is used as bedding / litter but I've never seen it in the feed.
The use hay, yes. But no straw.

[kickstart]

Hi CLW

           Thai' for some reason think only of bulk and not of quality, when I took this photo, to the left is some  Nappier that has been cut and is growing well ,now about 50 days old, a bit on the thin side, as it has had no fertilizer  or manure on it ,could be cut ,but I doubt if it will be, he will wait until it grows more ,and quality decreases, I would say Thai's think of bulk, as they would be afraid of running out ,and then they would have to buy in rice straw .

As for feeding rice straw, Thai's rear they cow's on the USA system, cows are kept in yards and feed is brought to them, grown on the farm ie maize and grass silage.

Here in Thailand, a lot of dairy farms are only 2-3 rie , no land to grow crops on, but some farms have land and grow maize or sugar cane, for selling not for feeding to the cows why don't they grow grass for the cows ?,some say grass will not grow ,not having the equipment to cut the grass,and some just can not be bothered to cut grass, easier just to pick up a bale of straw and feed that to the cows .

So, nearly all farms have to buy in all they feed, and the main roughage is rice straw, as you know they are plenty of it but now when they is not a lot of rice harvested, price is about 35 baht/ bale, not cheap in the main rice harvesting season it drops to 23-26 baht/bale .

Feeding rice straw is the biggest cause of infertility in Thai dairy cows and low milk yields , at its best it is only 5 % protein, when fresh when it about 6 months old drops to 3-4 % protein,the Thai way around this infertility problem according to the Thais  is to inject an A,D3, E , vitamin  supplement plus a phosphor supplement, both about as much use as a chocolate teapot, just does not have any effect on the fertility problem ,tell them  rice straw is the problem ,they normally say we can not grow any grass .

Actually in Europe some barley straw is feed, especially when cows are eating young fresh spring grass, cows milk well on fresh grass, but milk quality can be affected, young grass is all  protein  and very little fiber, and the BF, butterfat drops as milk protein rises and as dairy farmer get paid on milk quality ,and as it is the BF that makes butter and cheese, dairies need milk high in fat farmers ,and  farmers get a reduced payment on the milk for low BF .

So, farmers feed some straw, normal just after milking, 2-3 kg /cow /day is enough just prevents the BF dropping, some farms use  to feed hay, does the same job, but making hay now days is on the decline, most cattle are feed on big bale silage 

[CLW]

"but some farms have land and grow maize or sugar cane, for selling not for feeding to the cows why don't they grow grass for the cows ?,some say grass will not grow ,not having the equipment to cut the grass,and some just can not be bothered to cut grass, easier just to pick up a bale of straw and feed that to the cows ."

So they sell their crops and buy concentrate and straw from the income.

Sorry it may sound like bashing but to me the only reason why they are doing this because they are lazy.
And then complaining about reduced profit or income.

Same as the other reason you cited (and I heard this so many times already, I close my ears automatically now)

"It didn't work for us (to grow grass etc...)"

[George Bowman]

Growing up on a farm, we would this hay/straw for bedding. Around here it is fed to the cows, but it don't put much meat on the bone.

[kickstart]

5 hours ago, CLW said:

"but some farms have land and grow maize or sugar cane, for selling not for feeding to the cows why don't they grow grass for the cows ?,some say grass will not grow ,not having the equipment to cut the grass,and some just can not be bothered to cut grass, easier just to pick up a bale of straw and feed that to the cows ."

So they sell their crops and buy concentrate and straw from the income.

Sorry it may sound like bashing but to me the only reason why they are doing this because they are lazy.
And then complaining about reduced profit or income.

Same as the other reason you cited (and I heard this so many times already, I close my ears automatically now)

"It didn't work for us (to grow grass etc...)"

One farmer said to me they rent they land about 20rie, for growing sugar cane I said why do you not grow grass ,they said what they get from renting the land is more than they could grow in grass to feed to the cows, better to feed brought in rice straw  rice straw, Thai logic/lazy .

Before Nappier arrived some farmers did grow grass, mainly Rutize grass, but it was a cut and cart system, hardly any fertilizer was used  cows never walked the fields so no natural fertilizer, so within a few years the weed grasses took over, and you end up with a field of weed grass,

Have seen a few fields where cows do graze ,but Thai's are not good at putting up a simple electric fence ,afraid all the cows will break out, never to be seen again, to a Thai a fence is the concrete posts with 7 strands of barb  wire , never seen a 3 strand fence like we use, it costs a lot of money, so cows are feed on a cut and cart system .

That is why Nappier is so popular and easy to grow and cut and cart, for the ones that can be bothered.

[thoongfoned]

On 6/26/2018 at 12:29 PM, kickstart said:

Hi CLW

           Thai' for some reason think only of bulk and not of quality, when I took this photo, to the left is some  Nappier that has been cut and is growing well ,now about 50 days old, a bit on the thin side, as it has had no fertilizer  or manure on it ,could be cut ,but I doubt if it will be, he will wait until it grows more ,and quality decreases, I would say Thai's think of bulk, as they would be afraid of running out ,and then they would have to buy in rice straw .

As for feeding rice straw, Thai's rear they cow's on the USA system, cows are kept in yards and feed is brought to them, grown on the farm ie maize and grass silage.

Here in Thailand, a lot of dairy farms are only 2-3 rie , no land to grow crops on, but some farms have land and grow maize or sugar cane, for selling not for feeding to the cows why don't they grow grass for the cows ?,some say grass will not grow ,not having the equipment to cut the grass,and some just can not be bothered to cut grass, easier just to pick up a bale of straw and feed that to the cows .

So, nearly all farms have to buy in all they feed, and the main roughage is rice straw, as you know they are plenty of it but now when they is not a lot of rice harvested, price is about 35 baht/ bale, not cheap in the main rice harvesting season it drops to 23-26 baht/bale .

Feeding rice straw is the biggest cause of infertility in Thai dairy cows and low milk yields , at its best it is only 5 % protein, when fresh when it about 6 months old drops to 3-4 % protein,the Thai way around this infertility problem according to the Thais  is to inject an A,D3, E , vitamin  supplement plus a phosphor supplement, both about as much use as a chocolate teapot, just does not have any effect on the fertility problem ,tell them  rice straw is the problem ,they normally say we can not grow any grass .

Actually in Europe some barley straw is feed, especially when cows are eating young fresh spring grass, cows milk well on fresh grass, but milk quality can be affected, young grass is all  protein  and very little fiber, and the BF, butterfat drops as milk protein rises and as dairy farmer get paid on milk quality ,and as it is the BF that makes butter and cheese, dairies need milk high in fat farmers ,and  farmers get a reduced payment on the milk for low BF .

So, farmers feed some straw, normal just after milking, 2-3 kg /cow /day is enough just prevents the BF dropping, some farms use  to feed hay, does the same job, but making hay now days is on the decline, most cattle are feed on big bale silage 

funny that you should mention treating infertility with an ADE3 application..... only last week i was moaning about the infertility in younger sows and was told to up the dose of ADE3 from the company "vet" i will get them to give it a go and see if it works, he was very sure that this is the way to go..... most of the info we get from said guys seems to do the trick as the info is passed on by people high up in the company with actual experience/knowledge... time will tell...

[kickstart]

Interesting  post about pigs, In the cattle world infertility, is caused by the diet  being short of engage, not just the concentrate feed, but the whole diet, as I said the main cause being rice straw, the biggest infertility problem  is in first calving heifers, who suffer from very small non-functioning ovaries, very often the left ovary but some time both ovaries .

 

A young heifer all she does is eat and chew the cud, she comes on heat and 1st or 2ed service gets in calf, then when she calves  she is working to produce milk and needs a lot of energy, and importantly she is still growing, the diet  can provide enough energy  for her to produce milk and to grow, but not enough to make her fertile, hence the infertility problem .

, The answer is to increase the diet energy .mainty by increasing the quality of the forage, and minerals, Thai soil is shot of all minerals and a mineral supplement needs to be fed. As for injecting vitamin  AD3E, just a waste of time, Thai's think it is cheap and easy way out of a problem, just does not work.

As for pigs, you said it was younger gilts that are having the infertility problem, is it the same problem as cows? young gilts not getting enough energy in the diet, using the feed to nurse their litter of piglets, and to grow, and fertility is suffering? 

I am no expert on pigs  have a look at Google for the energy of a pig feed, then I would ask your feed company what the energy levels are in they feed, if they tell you is a different matter ,and if your feed rep even knows, I asked a CP rep what the ME/ TDN, ( a measurement  of energy  of a feed )is in there  16% dairy  concentrate and he had no idea at all, in the Uk a feed rep would most certainly know, or is it your feed company cutting corners on the quality of they feed.

As for Using AD3E,  cannot see a 5 cc injection of a vitamin doing any good, if it does work you will be better feeding a vitamin supplement .then  injecting the stuff. 

[thoongfoned]

no, for sure it has nothing to do with feed make up or even feed in take.... (these are both high end) (plus enviroment) for me its the prep that the gilt has not had....  i laughed when he said about the extra ad3e (sorry not ade3) i do like to re name things........ for me ad3e is more about condition/help, but he said the "E" bit could/should would help with fertility....... the instructions do mention fertility..... for me it dont make sense but i will give it a go, nothing to loose, its easy to see if it will/does have any affect because i have/keep very detailed records over the past 6/7 years. just though it was interesting that you mentioned it in the same space of time as our vet guy..... in the next month or 2 i will see if it has any extra benifit...... 200/250kg sow = 7/10cc on extra dose.... on late AI = after 5 day of empty day (this is quick, but time = feed = baht) (last month was a bad month and i can see a 50,000 baht loss on feed in 30 day......) i will report back if can see any benifit, he does assure me that he is right, i called him on this 3 times..... same responce (just to check my poor thai..)

i do hope it has an effect because it will  = more baht per month for the farm plus of course for them.....

[kickstart]

Vitamin E deficiency can result in poor reproduction and impaired immune system. Many of the signs of vitamin E deficiency are similar to those of selenium deficiency (see Mineral Deficiency).

The above comes from a veterinary manual 

The relationship with vitamin E and the mineral selenium is well known, in cattle as well as pigs, ask your feed company guy he should know? you can get a vitamin E selenium injection, could well be better than an AD3E.

[thoongfoned]

to be honest the vet guys or doctors as they are called just follow company regs/do what they are told to do, they do not like to get into  debates about this or that or other work that does not come under there control. i have found this to be the same in private hospitals and schools here also.(i do like to question things.....)

we are "given" the meds for the farm, no other meds are allowed in/used. this is understandable as the wife just provides the building/land and labor, the company control the rest.

so for me if there is a problem with the animals they just have to give/replace the non producing ones for news like they do month in month out taking a large hit in the pocket.....

the feed is checked by the mill all the time (very near to where you live) plus the local government and then the GMP and then some internation certificated people all take feed samples yearly when they do there checks then on top of that the "big" inspectors from bkk also take sample twice a year all from are feed store. 

blood tests are done on all live stock  before  coming into farm, then every month we do 5/7 random blood samples from animals in farm.

water  sample is taken to some company lab in bkk to be checked once a year (this we have to pay 8,000baht for)

water pressure is measured every month min 2 litres per minutes at the drinkers, plus alll the other environmental stuff once a month, all this is recorded in detail in daily/weekly ect reports, the standards are very high. the paper work is endless, i run a business back home and the paper work with this farm is crazyyyyy. every year there is more as the standards increase.....

so most things are covered, its just the things that you can not see or touch that are the main problems like fertility.....

like with most things time will usually sort it out one way or another....

Edited July 4, 2018 by thoongfoned