SURVEY: Do you want Trump to finish his first term?

[Andaman Al]

9 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

One thing I do not understand is they seem to take it on the news like Trump's tweets are under oath. 

 

Theoretically, Trump or anybody can say anything in public, but the story he tells investigators is what counts. Isn't it?

 

If I brag at a party i robbed 10 banks, but my story to the feds was i didn't I was just boasting to impress people and my story checks out, i am innocent and nothing happens to me. 

 

We all know the guy is a liar, but that is not agaist the law. I am not a trump fan just making the point that his official statements in the investigation seems to me what would be what counted. To the other stuff, can't he just say "I am a politician, I was trying to rally my troops". I do not think lying is an actual offense. This does not seem to be reported this way in the news. 

You set a very low bar for Heads of State.

 

The issue is what Trump is actually saying. With his current batch of lies comes evidence of obstruction of justice and also conspiracy (that's collusion for the uneducated). Trump will go down, the question is will it be on his own or how many American lives will he take with him when he predictably tries to call on his base and incite violence in his last desperate throws to save himself and his three little piggies.

[dick dasterdly]

28 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I am not aware of the US doing any covert election meddling since the end of the Cold War.  The fact that Russia, and possibly other nations, are doing much more sophisticated meddling in US elections needs to be investigated and prevented.  Those involved need to be charged and, if possible, tried and convicted.

 

It's incredibly discouraging that Trump supporters seem to dismiss Russian election meddling as no big deal.  Clearly their support for democracy isn't deep.

Hang on a minute!

 

Grenada/Iraq/US giving financial and military support to the contras in Nicaragua - etc. etc.!

 

These were direct military actions, so please - let's not pretend for one minute that they're not heavily involved in covert election meddling in various countries....

[heybruce]

19 minutes ago, utalkin2me said:

One thing I do not understand is they seem to take it on the news like Trump's tweets are under oath. 

 

Theoretically, Trump or anybody can say anything in public, but the story he tells investigators is what counts. Isn't it?

 

If I brag at a party i robbed 10 banks, but my story to the feds was i didn't I was just boasting to impress people and my story checks out, i am innocent and nothing happens to me. 

 

We all know the guy is a liar, but that is not agaist the law. I am not a trump fan just making the point that his official statements in the investigation seems to me what would be what counted. To the other stuff, can't he just say "I am a politician, I was trying to rally my troops". I do not think lying is an actual offense. This does not seem to be reported this way in the news. 

Do you trust an obvious, habitual liar?  One that is an obvious, self-serving opportunist with no standards of personal behavior and who cheerfully associates with notoriously corrupt people? 

 

Do you think such a person should lead a nation?

[Andaman Al]

16 minutes ago, riclag said:

Is it wrong for me to assume or ponder, the NAFTA agreement negotiations has wording that will address the Mexican Government paying a handsome amount toward the wall!It's about  making deals.They want to trade! We have a 60 B TD with them! They can help pay for the wall!

Have you ever wondered why the US has such a huge deficit with every other country? It is greedy, most of it's major manufacturers have moved out of country and nobody else in the world wants crappy US cars, overpriced drugs and medicines and food full of fructose (designed to keep you on those expensive medicines all your life). Nobody needs to buy American (or wants to), but the US NEEDS to buy from the rest of the world. If they build a wall then US citizens will pay for it as they will pay the burden on any tariffs or trade adjustments the US impose on Mexico. Trump has you on the road to nowhere. 

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Hang on a minute!

 

Grenada/Iraq/US giving financial and military support to the contras in Nicaragua - etc. etc.!

 

These were direct military actions, so please - let's not pretend for one minute that they're not heavily involved in covert election meddling in various countries....

Grenada and Nicaragua were cold war events.  The first Iraq War was arguably justified (I could argue either way on whether it was necessary), the second Iraq War was a colossal mistake that had nothing to do with Iraq elections.

[Becker]

1 hour ago, mcambl61 said:

with ZERO factual evidence just a twisted opinion.

Zero factual evidence?? When did you Swamp King fans start worrying about facts?

Anyway, you're wrong (again):

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/senate-intelligence-committee-report-russia-election-interference-2018-7?r=US&IR=T&IR=T

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/07/16/us/elections/russian-interference-statements-comments.html

http://time.com/5340060/donald-trump-vladimir-putin-summit-russia-meddling/

 

 

[riclag]

2 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

Have you ever wondered why the US has such a huge deficit with every other country? It is greedy, most of it's major manufacturers have moved out of country and nobody else in the world wants crappy US cars, overpriced drugs and medicines and food full of fructose (designed to keep you on those expensive medicines all your life). Nobody needs to buy American (or wants to), but the US NEEDS to buy from the rest of the world. If they build a wall then US citizens will pay for it as they will pay the burden on any tariffs or trade adjustments the US impose on Mexico. Trump has you on the road to nowhere. 

That's what I love about forum's ,everybody is deserved a opinion. I express mine and so did you

[TGIR]

How long is this thing going to go one.  I am sick of getting multiple notifications on it daily without a way to stop them.  Five new ones in the time it has taken to post this.

 

 

[heybruce]

25 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

” The economy was going fine when Trump took office”

 

if your idea of a “fine” economy is 1.9 GDP and a decimated manufacturing sector
then yes it was great. combine the massive amounts of imposed regulations on businesses and 
a 9 trillion dollar addition to the debt, I guess that is all “fine” for you. reality speaks otherwise. including the wage growth. the majority of Obama jobs were low wage service industry sector.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/31/pay-gains-under-trumps-best-since-the-great-recession.html

https://dailycaller.com/2018/08/01/american-workers-pay-raise/?utm_medium=push&utm_source=daily_caller&utm_campaign=push

 

Bergdahl deserted his post, thus he was a deserter, you can not get around that no matter how bad you want to. giving up 5 terrorists for him is insulting and weak. Then the Obama administration pardoned him, even more insulting, just ask his platoon.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-defense-bergdahl/judge-to-decide-trump-impact-in-u-s-army-deserter-bergdahls-case-idUSKBN1CS1CX

 

“Trump's border policies, specifically the policy of separating parents and children, was such an embarrassment and generated so much bad press that Trump reversed the policy by Executive Order, after stating that he couldn't do that.”

 

Again, just an opinion, while still ignoring where the responsibility for ILLEGALLY crossing the border clearly belongs. And as usual, the cowardly congress refuses to fix the immigration laws. but that must mean he is a “racist”

 

“ISIS was in full retreat before Trump took office”

" Counting only sorties in which at least one weapon was released, about three fourths of the action took place during the Obama years. "

 

why count only sorties? what about the pace of offensive operations stepped up in 2017 and the change in rules of engagement?
I do not see how you can say they were in full retreat when they still occupied Iraqi cities.
so I guess that street fighting, the really hard stuff avoided during the Obama administration in mosul and raqqa were just a coincidence??

Not considered in your opinion were the clear ACCELERATION in stepping up the offensives in 2017.

Obama admin failed to properly support the defeat of ISIS that would be why from 2012 to 2016 after 4 years they were still occupying territory in Iraq. I guess those JV teams were tough?
We can only guess the thousands of innocents that were murdered while the Obama admin took a slow soft approach for 4 years.

no mention of the time frames involved and the slow progress during the strategic patience administration at all, was that on purpose?

 

As far a NATO goes, again Obama did nothing to get the EU to live up to the commitments and finally someone is putting pressure on where it should have been decades ago. how many more failed promises should we tolerate? is this leading from behind or strategic patience?
 

Manufacturing as a percent of GDP was in decline long before Obama took office.  https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.ZS?locations=US  Trump is unlikely to change that.  He is also unlikely to create wage growth that is higher than inflation, though he has a good chance of triggering significant inflation.  While  his massive deficit spending in an already strong economy might briefly increase GDP growth, it won't last and the debt consequences will be severe.

 

You ignored my statement of the obvious:  When times are good smart people, businesses and countries reduce their debt load.  Trump is running it up.  Pretty stupid, don't you think?

 

Try to keep your timeline straight.  Bergdahl was not charged or convicted of desertion until after he had been repatriated.  You think it's outrageous that the Trump campaign is being investigated, but you have no problem condemning a man before he was charged.

 

In your post #3803 you stated, as part of Trump's imagined accomplishments "Making NATO pay their share"  I pointed out that Trump has not received any commitment from NATO beyond those already made.  I assume you have now conceded that Trump hasn't "made" NATO commit to anything they haven't already committed to, and you are just expressing your approval of Trump's habit of offending democratic allies and sucking up to dictators.

 

 

Yes, ISIS was in full retreat, losing ground in cities and country and the ability to generate revenue before Trump took office.  Trump is just taking unearned credit for their collapse, but you obviously won't acknowledge that. 

 

It is not an opinion that Trump reversed himself of family separation, it is a fact.

[mcambl61]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

You think that openly supporting democracy is election meddling?

 

You and Putin think a lot alike.

I did not say that Bruce, jeez get some perspective. you said they was no meddling. but now you say it is ok because it was for the right reason. you really do need to get some fresh air or something

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

if you do not think this is politically motivated, you are living on another planet, possibly on Uranus. and when I mean politically motivated, it is not just one party. you can not be so blind as to the rampant hatred from the state dept and doj/fbi/cia leadership.

 

Mueller interviewed for the FBI director job and was turned down, immediately after that he is appointed special counsel. on what planet is that normal?

 

Jeannie Hae Rhee is an American lawyer. Jeannie Rhee has previously served as a Deputy Assistant Attorney General during the Obama administration, how is that not a conflict of interest?

 

Notably, Zebley represented Justin Cooper, a former Clinton aide, and Rhee represented the Clinton Foundation. how on earth is that not a conflict of interest?

 

you actually had one of Mueller's top attorneys attending the Hillary victory party, are you that biased you think this all on the level?

 

Bruce please have some objectivity

Limiting the talent pool to people who had only voted Republican, donated to Republicans, and served under Republicans would have severely limited the ability to hire skilled investigators, and resulted in a highly biased investigation.  Would you have accepted a similar "Democrats only" investigation of Hillary Clinton?

 

All US intelligence agencies agreed that Russia meddled in the 2016 Presidential election.  Even Trump occasionally agrees, but then quickly reverses himself.  A crime of that magnitude must be investigated by the best available people.    Once the investigation is completed by this bipartisan team you can look for evidence of bias.

[heybruce]

4 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Bruce,

 

I know you will defend the messiah obama until the end regardless of what happened or will happen, that is your choice.

 

so far most of the grave predictions from the massively biased press has been wrong, so sdo not get too upset if you are too

 

You defend Trump on all things but think I have a messiah complex? 

 

I don't follow Fox News and other massively biased news sources, so I don't know what you are posting about.

[mcambl61]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

Limiting the talent pool to people who had only voted Republican, donated to Republicans, and served under Republicans would have severely limited the ability to hire skilled investigators, and resulted in a highly biased investigation.  Would you have accepted a similar "Democrats only" investigation of Hillary Clinton?

 

All US intelligence agencies agreed that Russia meddled in the 2016 Presidential election.  Even Trump occasionally agrees, but then quickly reverses himself.  A crime of that magnitude must be investigated by the best available people.    Once the investigation is completed by this bipartisan team you can look for evidence of bias.

never said that, but more than one lawyer on the team is severely conflicted and it is a blatant and shameful tactic that should not be allowed.

[mcambl61]

15 minutes ago, heybruce said:

I didn't see any mention of any of this being covert, or that the accusations of corruption were false.  I've been to Nicaragua, accusations of corruption there are generally true and understate the problem.

 

How does anything in your article support your claim "and this is being used to undermine a legally elected president in our own country."?

 

Even if one accepts the charge that the US has, in the recent past, illegally meddled in other countries elections, that does not change the fact that such meddling in our elections must be investigated and prevented.

 

GET IT?

never said anything about it should not be prevented, as that would be stating the obvious.

just be mature enough to realize our intelligence services have been woefully inept at doing something about it. or is that trump's fault too?

 

if you do not think the entire russian collusion circus was not part of the "insurance policy" then you are being purposely blinded by a bias of epic proportions

[heybruce]

7 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

never said anything about it should not be prevented, as that would be stating the obvious.

just be mature enough to realize our intelligence services have been woefully inept at doing something about it. or is that trump's fault too?

 

if you do not think the entire russian collusion circus was not part of the "insurance policy" then you are being purposely blinded by a bias of epic proportions

Law enforcement is generally reactive:  A crime has to be committed and investigated before charges can be brought and defenses set up to prevent similar crimes.  That is what is being done by the Mueller investigation.  People who object to the Mueller investigation are objecting to defending our elections from future meddling.

 

What "insurance policy" are you referring to?

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, heybruce said:

...

 

What "insurance policy" are you referring to?

Likely some bizarre "trump" cult fan conspiracy theory crapola, Q or another flavor. 

[Ramen087]

DT bested HRC for the simple reason she's mastered the art of second best when competing for the presidency. HRC did it in '08 with Obama, and again in '16.  DT won fair and square, as both played under the same set of rules. So, of course, any reasonable person wants him to complete his term of office.

[heybruce]

15 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

Look Bruce, 

 

If you are actually Naive enough think the meddling had any real effect at the ballot box in the presidential election, that would be your choice, zero evidence of that.

 

Give me precise examples of the dossier (created by a fervent Trump hating foreign agent) where the information is verifiably true. and you can't. I have not seen one verifiable fact from anywhere, but you would think that would have been done before presenting evidence to the fisa court, but we know that never happened.

 

I get it, you want him to be guilty, no matter what it takes.

 

 

 

I am sure I will have a moderator time me out again, as the left leanings are obvious here.

 

until then, good luck with the narrative you are trying so hard to propagate.

 

It is impossible to know what impact Russian meddling had on the election, which means you can not prove it did not have an impact.  In an election that close, I think it did have an impact, though not as much as Comey's ham-fisted handling of the Clinton investigation.

 

You now seem to have decided that lack of evidence supporting a claim is equivalent to disproving the claim.  Please pass this on to the Qanon people.  Regarding parts of the Steele dossier that have been verified:

 

" Newsweek stated that "the dossier's main finding, that Russia tried to prop up Trump over Clinton, was confirmed by" this assessment.^[86]ABC News stated that "some of the dossier's broad implications—particularly that Russian President Vladimir Putin launched an operation to boost Trump and sow discord within the U.S. and abroad—now ring true."^[41] " 

 

" In The New Yorker, Jane Mayer has stated that the allegation that Trump was favored by the Kremlin, and that they offered Trump's campaign dirt on Clinton, has proven true.^[8] "    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump–Russia_dossier#Veracity_of_certain_allegations

 

I'm limited in how much I can post, but I encourage you to read more.  Of course the dossier's conclusion that Putin favored Trump has since been confirmed by Putin himself at the Helsinki press conference. 

 

I honestly don't know if Trump is guilty of knowingly accepting material assistance from Russia (though it now appears clear Trump Jr at the very least attempted to do this).  I do he think is incompetent and a threat to the US.  I think the best hope of getting him out of office before the next election is through proof of massive conflicts of interest and use of the Presidency to enrich himself, though Republicans will not act on this unless Trump becomes a political liability to them.

[mcambl61]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Likely some bizarre "trump" cult fan conspiracy theory crapola, Q or another flavor. 

A controversial figure at the FBI, deputy director Andrew McCabe was seemingly referenced by Page and Strzok in their text messages.

“I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in Andy’s office - that there’s no way he gets elected - but I’m afraid we can’t take that risk,” Strzok texted in August 2016. “It’s like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you’re 40.” 

 

 

the texts are a fact. a fact we would have never known along with all the other FBI texts if HRC was elected. if you refuse to see the blatant bisa in the top echelon of the FBVI that is your choice.

[heybruce]

2 minutes ago, mcambl61 said:

you have to be kidding

 

A controversial figure at the FBI, deputy director Andrew McCabe was seemingly referenced by Page and Strzok in their text messages.

“I want to believe the path you threw out for consideration in Andy’s office - that there’s no way he gets elected - but I’m afraid we can’t take that risk,” Strzok texted in August 2016. “It’s like an insurance policy in the unlikely event you die before you’re 40.”

Oh that.  An agent who should have known better bragging to his mistress.  He was removed from the investigation when this came to light, and no evidence of him doing anything contrary to Trump's campaign has been found.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

No, the current FBI has stated that it can not say if there was an effect, because it is impossible at this time to know.

 

An election won inspite fo losing the popular vote by 3 million is very close.

"trump" won by a teeny tiny margin in four swing states. Those numbers were so small that yes the Russkies may have tipped it for him. They were targeted to specific voters in the swing states, after all. However, the biggest overall factor was clearly COMEY. But every little bit or big bit makes a difference to the total. I don't think Comey had evil intentions but what he did was very wrong. The Russkies did have evil intentions. 

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Trump having no political experience, hated.because of his hair and wealth,  speaking with unprofessionalism and still coming up and being president to me means he one by a mile. Quite and amazing achievement whichever way you spin it really.  He will be a historians delight 

He will be historian's worse president in American history, that if, unless the "trump" fans permanently take over the academies and purge all dissent. 

[Jingthing]

Things are only going to get worse. Thanks a bunch, mr. president.

 

Quote

Everything you need to know about today’s Republican Party is summed up by a photograph from President Trump’s political rally in Ohio on Saturday. Two men in the crowd look defiantly at the camera, proudly displaying the slogan on their matching T-shirts: “I’d Rather Be a Russian Than a Democrat.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trumps-rally-rhetoric-is-going-to-get-somebody-killed/2018/08/06/d3bccad8-99ac-11e8-b60b-1c897f17e185_story.html

[Jingthing]

Desperate presidents. But Nixon didn't have Fox news.

 

"It’s hard to believe that, 45 years later, we may be in store for another damaging attack on the foundations of our democracy. Yet the cynical conduct of this president, his lawyers and a handful of congressional Republicans is frightening to me and should be to every citizen of this country. We are not playing just another Washington political game; there is much more at stake."

 

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/only-one-other-president-has-ever-acted-this-desperate/2018/08/06/7eed964e-9994-11e8-b55e-5002300ef004_story.html

 

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

 

 

 

[beechguy]

4 hours ago, heybruce said:

Manufacturing as a percent of GDP was in decline long before Obama took office.  https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NV.IND.MANF.ZS?locations=US  Trump is unlikely to change that.  He is also unlikely to create wage growth that is higher than inflation, though he has a good chance of triggering significant inflation.  While  his massive deficit spending in an already strong economy might briefly increase GDP growth, it won't last and the debt consequences will be severe.

 

You ignored my statement of the obvious:  When times are good smart people, businesses and countries reduce their debt load.  Trump is running it up.  Pretty stupid, don't you think?

 

Try to keep your timeline straight.  Bergdahl was not charged or convicted of desertion until after he had been repatriated.  You think it's outrageous that the Trump campaign is being investigated, but you have no problem condemning a man before he was charged.

 

In your post #3803 you stated, as part of Trump's imagined accomplishments "Making NATO pay their share"  I pointed out that Trump has not received any commitment from NATO beyond those already made.  I assume you have now conceded that Trump hasn't "made" NATO commit to anything they haven't already committed to, and you are just expressing your approval of Trump's habit of offending democratic allies and sucking up to dictators.

 

 

Yes, ISIS was in full retreat, losing ground in cities and country and the ability to generate revenue before Trump took office.  Trump is just taking unearned credit for their collapse, but you obviously won't acknowledge that. 

 

It is not an opinion that Trump reversed himself of family separation, it is a fact.

You're wrong about ISIS, they wouldn't have had anywhere to retreat from, if Obama hadn't given it to them. I was there (Anbar Province & Tikrit 2008-2010), were you? Pretty easy to BS people, that haven't been there.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, beechguy said:

You're wrong about ISIS, they wouldn't have had anywhere to retreat from, if Obama hadn't given it to them. I was there (Anbar Province & Tikrit 2008-2010), were you? Pretty easy to BS people, that haven't been there.

To save civilian lives ISIS was sometimes allowed to retreat, leaving behind heavy weapons.  That is still going on with other rebel groups.  However a retreat is a retreat, and involves the surrender of territory.  By the start of 2017 ISIS held less than half the territory they held at their peak.  That's a retreat.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISIL_territorial_claims

[beechguy]

1 minute ago, heybruce said:

To save civilian lives ISIS was sometimes allowed to retreat, leaving behind heavy weapons.  That is still going on with other rebel groups.  However a retreat is a retreat, and involves the surrender of territory.  By the start of 2017 ISIS held less than half the territory they held at their peak.  That's a retreat.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISIL_territorial_claims

And you're still not getting it, they would not have anywhere to retreat from, except for Obama's piss poor policy. Again, were you there?

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, beechguy said:

And you're still not getting it, they would not have anywhere to retreat from, except for Obama's piss poor policy. Again, were you there?

No, I was not there.  I seriously doubt you were "there" in the military planning meetings when options, costs and benefits were evaluated. 

 

Do you know if the decision to allow a retreat was made by Obama or delegated to his generals?  If made by Obama, do you think it was following a military recommendation from his generals, or overruling it?  Were you there?

[Scott]

Please get back on topic.   The topic isn't Obama, Hillary or the myriad of off-topic posts already removed.  

 

[beechguy]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

No, I was not there.  I seriously doubt you were "there" in the military planning meetings when options, costs and benefits were evaluated. 

 

Do you know if the decision to allow a retreat was made by Obama or delegated to his generals?  If made by Obama, do you think it was following a military recommendation from his generals, or overruling it?  Were you there?

I was there working on reconnaissance and surveillance programs, no didn't sit in on the meetings with the Generals, just heard their, and their subordinate's comments as we conducted operations. You think Wikileaks was?

 

The feeling I got, is they, commanding officers, didn't think it was a good idea, but that didn't stop Obama, with help from Hilary. But, it didn't stop there, Obama and Hilary have a lot of blood on their hands from their positions on the Arab Spring. A lot of bodies in the dirt, and floating in Med, from Syria, Egypt, Libya, etc. I don't see how you all could call Hilary qualified, when she couldn't even mange classified material, never mind make a good policy decision. 

 

So for 2016, many of us felt that Trump was a better choice than Hilary, both domestically and for foreign policy issues. If you guys don't like it, give us better options for future elections.