stop feeding street dogs

[wildewillie89]

2 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Mostly nonsense - you have tried to dichotomise rubbish disposal and made assumptions about how the whole thing should b financed.

which "ministry: are you talking about and what kind of bins?

As for your negative views on costing they are mostly ill-founded......firstly if the government can afford roads railways utilities they can have a national policy.

disposing of garbage does not specifically require an incinerator or a specific amount and if the dog problem was nationalise then economies of scale would be available.

Whatever way the rubbish is disposed of it CAN be done it ways that it is inaccessible to dogs and does not get dispersed from within the confines of where it is put......every European country has achieved that. It doesn't require a revolutionary method of garbage collection it just requires that it is done properly

To see the problem of dogs village by village is a blinkered approach, it needs a national change. If one region doesn't cooperate then the next region will be invaded by their dogs and all their efforts will have been wasted.

 

Environmentally friendly waste disposal systems are not necessarily expensive either as they produce usable bi-products such as energy or even recycled materials and fertilisers.

 

Ministry of Interior deal with local governments. The budget is so stretched the ministry's only solution was to increase the household fee by 7 times. If the budget is as big as you think, then why have they been forced to go down this path? 

I was under the impression these systems changed the attitude, that some places now have the mindset that they have to create rubbish just to keep the system going. I think the opponents of the incinerator system in Norway discussed this idea. I personally like it if it can bring in energy, however, Thai will need to have rubbish imported to run it. This could make them money, however, you can bet your life that process will not be dog proof. If not an incinerator, then what are the alternatives? You failed to answer this. As far as I know it is mostly landfills and incinerators that are discussed at the conferences. We are kidding ourselves if we think all landfills will ever be dog proof across the country.  

Regions are in competition in Thailand, you do realise this? Even municipalities within each province are in competition. The figures of how many tonnes of rubbish are collected are fixed because of this. Some residents in some provinces even travel to dump their rubbish to get lower weights further adding to the problem. To fix a problem you must look at it from the actual country's way of looking at it and go from there, not from extremely developed ways that Thai people will turn off to as soon as you open your mouth. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 4:13 PM, dick dasterdly said:

And there we go.

 

A few of us are honest enough to admit that we think dogs are more worthy than people - but of course this view will horrify the majority....

I've owned or taken care of many dogs, and while I think dogs and humans exhibit many similarities of character, I've met many humans whom I consider a lower life form than our 4 legged friends. 

Want unconditional love- get a dog.

[mogandave]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I've owned or taken care of many dogs, and while I think dogs and humans exhibit many similarities of character, I've met many humans whom I consider a lower life form than our 4 legged friends. 

Want unconditional love- get a dog.

I like dogs, but quit feeding them and see how long they stick around.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, wildewillie89 said:

For starters, the direction the ministry wants to now go is away from bins. My workplace have removed all their bins already as the municipality decided to to go with the government. Where I live decided to go against what the government wanted and kept their bins (every municipality had the choice).

The environmentally friendly ways are expensive and need more rubbish than provinces actually have. I think a few provinces around us looked into getting one of those incinerators (that create energy) and then realised the amount of rubbish needed wasn't possible. So landfill remained the better option. 

Where is the money coming from for these initial investments, and what are the actual investments that are dog proof? Yes, the bigger municipalities own things like hotels etc, however the smaller municipalities still need to pay those big municipalities to use their garbage disposal system. Like I said, even now if a municipality charged 7x what they currently do it doesn't even break even for even a dog friendly landfill system. Let alone a system that is protected from dogs. Smaller municipalities (majority of the country) without things like hotels or tax from businesses have no hope.

Garbage disposal therefore does need to be a fee on the household, which will inevitably mean the result will be dogs are a lesser problem than the fee. Garbage was the biggest issue last year and this year for municipalities due to strain on the budget it is causing, which is why the push to increase the fee was put forward. 

I think a few provinces around us looked into getting one of those incinerators (that create energy) and then realised the amount of rubbish needed wasn't possible. So landfill remained the better option. 

 

Not trying to attack you, but that is rubbish ( sorry ). If those provincial authorities can't work together to combine the rubbish so they can use an incinerator that is down to their lack of .....................

Landfill is absolutely the worst way of disposing of mankind's garbage. Recycling and composting the best ( composting also creates useable fuel [ gas ]) If they can't do the best, at least incinerate and make electricity.

[wildewillie89]

11 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think a few provinces around us looked into getting one of those incinerators (that create energy) and then realised the amount of rubbish needed wasn't possible. So landfill remained the better option. 

 

Not trying to attack you, but that is rubbish ( sorry ). If those provincial authorities can't work together to combine the rubbish so they can use an incinerator that is down to their lack of .....................

Landfill is absolutely the worst way of disposing of mankind's garbage. Recycling and composting the best ( composting also creates useable fuel [ gas ]) If they can't do the best, at least incinerate and make electricity.

The problem comes to run them requires significant amounts of garbage, so many are turned off. Norway and Sweden have them and have to have rubbish imported to keep them going. I am not sure how much rubbish you think provinces make, but it was decided it wasn't enough. I can PM you the notes/discussion this weekend probably, but they would be in Thai so need to be translated. 

I completely agree with the last part. The municipalities have worked hard on trying to recycle and compost, but they can only work within their means. A cultural shift is required which would probably have to start with the younger generation.

*

An environmentalist's dream, you might have thought. Not necessarily, cautions the chair of Friends of the Earth Norway, Lars Haltbrekken.

"The overall goal from an environmental perspective should be to reduce the amount of waste, reuse what we can reuse, recycle, and then the fourth option is to burn it and use the energy.

"We have created such an overcapacity in these power plants in Norway and Sweden. We have made ourselves dependent on producing more and more garbage."

Edited February 21, 2018 by wildewillie89

[mogandave]

They do a pretty good job of recycling here. Likely why they don’t have enough to keep an incinerator going.

Trucking garbage around the country to consolidate it probably does make environmental or economic sense.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[wildewillie89]

One of the areas where the bins used to be at my workplace. The garbage bags had just been picked up by the municipality (twice a week), the rest of the time bags obviously have to be left there - field day for street dogs. Heavy reliance on the maintenance guy to sort through as best he can. 

From memory, I think it was an American who had a phd relating to garbage who did his thesis on a municipality in the US, which had no bins. Thailand paid him to come and give a lecture. The idea was if no bins then less rubbish, as the ministry was sick of subsidizing so much rubbish disposal. Now that would have worked if the country also outsourced companies to fine people littering, dumping or even if the country's municipalities had fining powers. Thailand do not have either of these for the most part. If someone litters/dumps, then you must go to the police with evidence, or if someone dumps/burns the official must get the elected Mayor to sign it off and ask the police to act on the fine.

So in Thailand it was obviously going to be a disaster. Dogs are left to eat rubbish due to no bins and other Mayors were never going to go around fining every man and his dog for burning off rubbish due to no bins (political suicide) - which is why many Mayors didn't follow this idea and kept bins and didn't increase fees. But the point is the direction the government wants to go is very far from dog proof so new ideas need to be thought of to tackle the dog issue. 

On the incinerator, it is probably also due to the fierce competition the ministry sets between municipalities. They are awarded for the least amount of garbage tonnage they can achieve. Numbers are naturally not accurate because of this. So there could be enough rubbish around the place to warrant a few more, but the numbers will never show this in many provinces.  

Edited February 21, 2018 by wildewillie89

[Airbagwill]

9 hours ago, KMartinHandyman said:

Slept in and skipped a lot. For me shit is shit and there are no qualifiers. To each his own.

Not really unless you want "your own" to be quite incorrect ... the difference is quite significant both composition and the health risks that each kind of excrement presents. 

As I said before, when did you last see a house built of dog shit?

[KC 71]

You cant polish a turd,but you can sprinkle it with glitter


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[wildewillie89]

Probably depends a lot on where people live as to how concerning it is for them. I live in a village and I have never stepped in dog shit as usually the dogs do it in the grass (away from cars/people's walk ways). Not to mention it decomposes quicker than back home as the food Thai dogs consume rarely includes actual meat, and also due to the warm climate. 

Buffalo and cow shit is all over the roads as they don't move for cars and causes already non-skilled drivers to swerve at high speeds. 

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, KC 71 said:

You cant polish a turd,but you can sprinkle it with glitter


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

I think you need to get yourself better informed on the uses, values and hazards of excrement.

It might result in your comments being less tainted with the same.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

Stepping in poop is the least of your problems.....

Decomposition of dog poop........

A soi dog will poop about 250 to 300 lbs of crap every year.
It takes about a year for dog shit to decompose completely.... but pathogens may remain in the ground around it.
Dogs are omnivores, meaning they eat animal and plant material. If your dog primarily consumes meat, his feces take longer to decompose than that of a canine eating food filled with grains.
Dog poop can take a year or more to decompose.  It can even mummify in a landfill, especially if it is in non degradable plastic bags used for poop-scooping.
Dodshit isn't a fertiliser... as dog poop is higher in protein compared to cattle pat, it is quite acidic and will damage any vegetation it is left to rot on.....
You can compost dog poo; it takes about 2 months but it is possible that the pathogens from a dogs diet may still persist so the resulting compost is not recommended for use with food, fruit and vegetable production..........  Fine for flower beds etc. so long as kids don't play in it.

One gram of dog waste can contain as many as 23 million fecal coliform bacteria , this seeps into ground water and into local wells and water supplies, spreading such diseases as salmonella and giardia.
Chopping it up (e.g. grass cutting) or spreading it around only exacerbates the problem and of course allows it to be trasferredunseenon people's feet or shoes...and into houses.
In a tropical climate storms and flooding can deposit a film of dog shit over everything...it is left there after the water recedes. It also enters the domestic water supplies.
Dogpoop in the States has the same status as toxic chemicals; it is regarded as a dangerous pollutant.
 Dog poop can contain hookworms, ringworms, tapeworms and Salmonella. Long after the poop itself is no longer visible such things as parasite eggs can linger on in the soil and vefetation....This could be for over a year. Kids playing outside are particularly vulnerable from hand to mouth contamination.

[johng]

18 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Dog poop can contain hookworms, ringworms, tapeworms and Salmonella. Long after the poop itself is no longer visible such things as parasite eggs can linger on in the soil and vefetation....This could be for over a year. Kids playing outside are particularly vulnerable from hand to mouth contamination.

Sometimes dogs will eat feaces  then go and give their owners or anyone else a nice lick 

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, wildewillie89 said:

Probably depends a lot on where people live as to how concerning it is for them. I live in a village and I have never stepped in dog shit as usually the dogs do it in the grass (away from cars/people's walk ways). Not to mention it decomposes quicker than back home as the food Thai dogs consume rarely includes actual meat, and also due to the warm climate. 

Buffalo and cow shit is all over the roads as they don't move for cars and causes already non-skilled drivers to swerve at high speeds. 

Whereas I live on Phuket (not exactly a village!) and have also never stepped on dog shit - and rarely seen it.

 

As you say, dogs generally shit in out of the way areas, and it decomposes v quickly in such a hot environment.

[dick dasterdly]

I feel v sorry for any person or animal obviously suffering and will always help if possible.

 

I made a very bad mistake once when a homeless 'farang' I'd previously helped, turned up at my door a few months later (having found a job in the interim period), and I wasn't overly sympathetic.  When I didn't offer him help the next morning, he committed suicide a couple of hours later .

[Airbagwill]

17 minutes ago, johng said:

Sometimes dogs will eat feaces  then go and give their owners or anyone else a nice lick 

Regardless of country, I'm always taken aback by the amount of close physical interaction some owners have with there dogs.......

[dick dasterdly]

But this is way off-topic, which boils down to some people have compassion towards those (in this case soi dogs) in unfortunate circumstances, whilst others only care about whether those unfortunates are annoying them in some way....

[Airbagwill]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Whereas I live on Phuket (not exactly a village!) and have also never stepped on dog shit - and rarely seen it.

 

As you say, dogs generally shit in out of the way areas, and it decomposes v quickly in such a hot environment.

No, you are grossly misinformed -  it doesn't decompose quickly even in a "hot" environment it can take up to a year and the pathogens linger on.... Furthermore, in a wet environment it ends up in suspension in the rainwater drainage etc and is spread all over the place, you may not see it but your treading on it all the time.

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, johng said:

Sometimes dogs will eat feaces  then go and give their owners or anyone else a nice lick 

Very true.  Fortunately this repulsive behaviour is generally restricted to puppies/young dogs - and their owners are v aware of this stomach-turning behaviour.....

 

Not sure what it has to do with soi dogs?

[dick dasterdly]

5 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

Regardless of country, I'm always taken aback by the amount of close physical interaction some owners have with there dogs.......

And that explains why you have zero compassion for soi dogs....

 

I was less than 'keen' when my beloved whippet tried to stick his tongue in my mouth...., and not overly keen on face licks either - but can't imagine not having cuddles and 'licks' with my dogs.  You'll be horrified to hear that they also sleep on the bed , and yet I've somehow managed to survive without any pet-related illnesses.....

[dick dasterdly]

14 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

No, you are grossly misinformed -  it doesn't decompose quickly even in a "hot" environment it can take up to a year and the pathogens linger on.... Furthermore, in a wet environment it ends up in suspension in the rainwater drainage etc and is spread all over the place, you may not see it but your treading on it all the time.

I've no reason to disbelieve you, but I don't know anyone that has become ill as a result. 

[Airbagwill]

20 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

due to the fierce competition the ministry sets between municipalities.

What is this fierce competition of which you speak and please explain what bins were "removed" and why.

[JLCrab]

20 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

<snip>  You'll be horrified to hear that they also sleep on the bed  <snip2>

No -- but thanks for the warning.

[metisdead]

A number of profane posts and replies have been removed.  Some posts containing inflammatory comments have been removed, the replies were removed as well. 

[mogandave]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I feel v sorry for any person or animal obviously suffering and will always help if possible.

 

I made a very bad mistake once when a homeless 'farang' I'd previously helped, turned up at my door a few months later (having found a job in the interim period), and I wasn't overly sympathetic.  When I didn't offer him help the next morning, he committed suicide a couple of hours later .

"A permanent solution to a temporary problem..."

[wildewillie89]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

What is this fierce competition of which you speak and please explain what bins were "removed" and why.

You didn't know municipalities compete re garbage? You are talking a lot about garbage, but so far none of it is actually relevant to Thailand - all relevant to other countries. So I wonder what you are trying to achieve. A hypothetical that is not in line with the direction the ministry has stated it wants to go in? Good luck on that one.  

I have already explained, and even posted a photo of an example of it. Go and speak to your local municipality about the direction the ministry wants to go in as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about (re Thailand). It would explain the 'nonsense' comment, and then not being able to explain why it was nonsense and then also offering incredibly vague comments relevant to other countries (not Thailand). 

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, wildewillie89 said:

You didn't know municipalities compete re garbage? You are talking a lot about garbage, but so far none of it is actually relevant to Thailand - all relevant to other countries. So I wonder what you are trying to achieve. A hypothetical that is not in line with the direction the ministry has stated it wants to go in? Good luck on that one.  

I have already explained, and even posted a photo of an example of it. Go and speak to your local municipality about the direction the ministry wants to go in as you clearly have no idea what you are talking about (re Thailand). It would explain the 'nonsense' comment, and then not being able to explain why it was nonsense and then also offering incredibly vague comments relevant to other countries (not Thailand). 

I think you are misinformed...how do they compete?

How does the photo illustrate either competition or bins

What point are you trying to make.

I've stated that the waste disposal system is unsatisfactory and allows large dog populations to thrive....you come back with nonsense about competition and no bins.

I'm aware of the responsibility hierarchy for domesticrefuse collectionandnoneofit fits into comments which appear to be based on a misunderstanding of what goes on.

I also don't understand how you think this connects to the dog population...I have stated how I consider it relevant in respect of the accepted assertion that without reducing the food supply you can never reduce the dog population

[mogandave]

I think you are misinformed...how do they compete?
How does the photo illustrate either competition or bins
What point are you trying to make.
I've stated that the waste disposal system is unsatisfactory and allows large dog populations to thrive....you come back with nonsense about competition and no bins.
I'm aware of the responsibility hierarchy for domesticrefuse collectionandnoneofit fits into comments which appear to be based on a misunderstanding of what goes on.
I also don't understand how you think this connects to the dog population...I have stated how I consider it relevant in respect of the accepted assertion that without reducing the food supply you can never reduce the dog population

Yes, everyone that does not agree with you is clearly misinformed.

[Airbagwill]

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, everyone that does not agree with you is clearly misinformed.

 

Only someone as illinformed as yourself could come up with that.....you have demonstrated time and again a lack of understanding on this subject which you seem think you can replace with quasi-cynical comments that are not actually even related to the discussion ...It may not be apparent to yourself but it seems abundantly clear to me.

Can you actually cite a single comment on this thread you made that has any direct relevance to the topic and isn't in reality an ad hominem attack?

[mogandave]

Only someone as illinformed as yourself could come up with that.....you have demonstrated time and again a lack of understanding on this subject which you seem think you can replace with quasi-cynical comments that are not actually even related to the discussion ...It may not be apparent to yourself but it seems abundantly clear to me.
Can you actually cite a single comment on this thread you made that has any direct relevance to the topic and isn't in reality an ad hominem attack?

At least I understand how different provinces could be competing to provide numbers to satisfy their environmental targets.