Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Orac]

Parliamentary democracies are there to serve the will of the people and there is no greater will than a referendum because the result is a direct result of their will. This will is further strengthened by a poll which says 65% of the people want them to get on with it. To overturn it or ignore it would be political suicide.
 

As I said, the poll is disingenuous to say the least because it avoids asking the obvious questions so that the one it does ask can be interpreted in a way to suit those that commissioned it.

If there is ‘no greater will than a referendum’ then why all the fuss about not having a second one though personally I am against the idea. The Referendum Act of 2011 mandates one if any further powers are ceded to the EU and the transition bill currently appears to do this as would what appears to be the Labour position of Customs Union - one could also claim that the CU position now has the support of 65% since it meets their requirements.


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[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-agree-that-the-uk-economy-will-be-permanently-damaged-by-leaving-the-eu-or-that-even-if-there-is-a-short-term-economic-hit-the-uk-economy-will-be-back-to-business-as-usual-within-a-couple-of-3/

Are you Nontabury's butler now? ?

[aright]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Are you Nontabury's butler now? ?

Yes I'm here to serve him Grouse on a platter

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

Read the attachment. I know it's dry and boring but it does explain the situation well. Certainly the system could be improved/simplified/clarified but it is democratic

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

looks like attachment didn't work so here it is again. For those with a serious interest (obsessive even) this gives a balanced view of a complex issue. I look on it as work in progress; it should be improved not trashed.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

I think you are saying we should support the EU for what it could and should be rather than what it is and does. One of the greatest mistakes in politics is to judge something by its intentions rather than its outcomes.

For over 40 years Britain has urged the EU to accept fundamental reform. Our failure to convince them resulted in a Referendum which voted to leave the EU. We accepted the EU wanted a different path.

 

Edit I forgot Mr Macron.....I am not as comfortable with him as you seem to be. Either way whatever his vision is it will only be realised on German terms.

OK, at least you give a rational BALANCED opinion! Happy to debate the issues with you ?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Orac said:

 

The problem with this poll is it does not ask the question “do you support Brexit” or “how would you vote if if there was another referendum” which is an odd one to miss off unless you were looking to mislead people with the overall result of your survey.

Personally I would have voted for getting on with it as I think there should never have been a referendum in the first place and this should be the task of parliament to decide what is right for the country along with the decision to move forward with the current governments Brexit plan, change the plan to include remaining in the Customs Union or remaining fully in the EU - they also retain the right to request the advice of the people by holding a further referendum though I do think this would be a bad idea.


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Yes, well said.

 

Much as I could not abide the woman, Thatcher would have negotiated improvements to the EU and would not have allowed the Eastern European inrush 

 

When one looks at the diplomatic and negotiating skills of this incompetent bunch it is no wonder we didn't wield our strength more effectively over the last 30 years

 

I see the problems very clearly but I don't think leaving is the optimal solution 

 

A bit like pulling out all the connections to your life support machine just because the thing that goes beep is broken. You believe you can connect to other life support machines before you expire!

[nauseus]

9 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Yes, well said.

 

Much as I could not abide the woman, Thatcher would have negotiated improvements to the EU and would not have allowed the Eastern European inrush 

 

When one looks at the diplomatic and negotiating skills of this incompetent bunch it is no wonder we didn't wield our strength more effectively over the last 30 years

 

I see the problems very clearly but I don't think leaving is the optimal solution 

 

A bit like pulling out all the connections to your life support machine just because the thing that goes beep is broken. You believe you can connect to other life support machines before you expire!

Thatcher saw the light too late. As soon as the TUC (Tory Europhile Club)  realised that she was likely to fight with and possibly pull out of the EEC, the daggers were out and she was gone. In 1990, Major and his like feared an EEC exit.

 

It would have been interesting to see the results, if she had been given a chance, If she had we probably would left before the EEC mutated into the EU. Sad really.

[nauseus]

8 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

The article was written by Zoe Williams in the pro-EU Grauniad.

You need to study this subject a little more before you comment!

Game is over anyway...

I didn't see who wrote that but now I understand the bias, inaccuracies and lack of real information in it. 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

The battle against brexit is a battle with the hard right.It seems that many Brexiteers are in denial about this ... Racists protesting they aren't racist (a sure sign that they are) and sadly many who are failing to recognise the hard right before it is tooa late.....

"There are fascists pretending to be humanitarians like cannibals on a health kick eating only vegetarians" -  Roger McGough 

 

 

Yes. I deny and resent this because the statement is untrue. Political name-calling is easy isn't it? Some hard right wingers probably formed a component of the leave vote but only as a very small minority. 

 

And you might have a good look the lives and histories of some of the original EU "founders" before you start slinging that fascist rock about! 

 

[darren1971]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:23 AM, CGW said:

Ah - the "globalist" view point, you were easily swayed! but they are pumping as much time and money into getting their way, despite a clear vote to get out. Why would anyone want to be ruled by non elected officials in another country!

mainly because we will still be ruled by them after we leave but will have no say in those rules. Switzerland are out of the union but still need to agree to the 4 main principles to get their trade deal.

[nontabury]

4 hours ago, Orac said:

 

The problem with this poll is it does not ask the question “do you support Brexit” or “how would you vote if if there was another referendum” which is an odd one to miss off unless you were looking to mislead people with the overall result of your survey.

Personally I would have voted for getting on with it as I think there should never have been a referendum in the first place and this should be the task of parliament to decide what is right for the country along with the decision to move forward with the current governments Brexit plan, change the plan to include remaining in the Customs Union or remaining fully in the EU - they also retain the right to request the advice of the people by holding a further referendum though I do think this would be a bad idea.


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The right to request another referendum. And then if the result still favored Brexit, 

would you then demand a further referendum, and then another, in the hope that perhaps the British people would finally accept project fear, as you seem to have.

[Orac]

The right to request another referendum. And then if the result still favored Brexit, 

would you then demand a further referendum, and then another, in the hope that perhaps the British people would finally accept project fear, as you seem to have.

 

You seem to be a bit hard of reading there - sorry I didn’t get my crayons out to draw a picture for you.

 

I said I do not support a further referendum and I think having one would be a bad idea.

 

 

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[The manic]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Yes. I deny and resent this because the statement is untrue. Political name-calling is easy isn't it? Some hard right wingers probably formed a component of the leave vote but only as a very small minority. 

 

And you might have a good look the lives and histories of some of the original EU "founders" before you start slinging that fascist rock about! 

 

Indeed.http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-myth-of-a-post-brexit-surge-in-hate/21267#.WsXU8MsxUwB

The Brexit race hate myth was just a smoke screen.

[aright]

3 hours ago, Orac said:

 

As I said, the poll is disingenuous to say the least because it avoids asking the obvious questions so that the one it does ask can be interpreted in a way to suit those that commissioned it.

 - one could also claim that the CU position now has the support of 65% since it meets their requirements.


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You are subject to some interpretation yourself.

The poll did not say 65% supported Brexit it said 65% wanted the result respected and the Government to get on with implementing it. A subtle difference.

[Orac]

9 minutes ago, aright said:

You are subject to some interpretation yourself.

The poll did not say 65% supported Brexit it said 65% wanted the result respected and the Government to get on with implementing it. A subtle difference.

 

That is not my claim - it was you who introduced this poll to back up the claim that 65% of British people now support Brexit.

 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, nontabury said:

You do like posting articles from the Independent. Why not mention articles from other newspapers, which state that 65% of British people now support Britexit.

 

5 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Perhaps you would care to cite these hapless journals yourself?

Or are you concerned that some may find the quality of your sources risible?

 

5 hours ago, aright said:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-agree-that-the-uk-economy-will-be-permanently-damaged-by-leaving-the-eu-or-that-even-if-there-is-a-short-term-economic-hit-the-uk-economy-will-be-back-to-business-as-usual-within-a-couple-of-3/

 

[Chomper Higgot]

41 minutes ago, The manic said:

Indeed.http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/the-myth-of-a-post-brexit-surge-in-hate/21267#.WsXU8MsxUwB

The Brexit race hate myth was just a smoke screen.

Says website run by communists that has also argued against laws punishing pedophiles. 

 

[aright]

5 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

That is not my claim - it was you who introduced this poll to back up the claim that 65% of British people now support Brexit.

My poll was introduced not to back up a claim but to show Remainers the issue (another referendum) is not as black and white as they think. You can however interpret what I said in any way you wish, as I do yours.

 - one could also claim that the CU position now has the support of 65% since it meets their requirements.

 

[Orac]

My poll was introduced not to back up a claim but to show Remainers the issue (another referendum) is not as black and white as they think. You can however interpret what I said in any way you wish, as I do yours.

 - one could also claim that the CU position now has the support of 65% since it meets their requirements.
 

Maybe you could have pointed that out when you posted that link rather than letting us jump to the obvious conclusion that the poll backed up claim that was made.

As I said, the poll is clearly designed to give a false impression as is backed up by a poster on here falling for it. My claim that the CU has 65% support is obvious wrong and an example of what sort of mistruths can be made using dubious polls.


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[Airbagwill]

19 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

That is not my claim - it was you who introduced this poll to back up the claim that 65% of British people now support Brexit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

poll of 1600 sponsored by the times.

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Airbagwill said:

poll of 1600 sponsored by the times.

Who also brought us 'The Hitler Diaries'.

[Orac]

poll of 1600 sponsored by the times.

Maybe a different poll hence the confusion - the linked poll is Daily Express and 2019 ppl polled.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/do-you-agree-that-the-uk-economy-will-be-permanently-damaged-by-leaving-the-eu-or-that-even-if-there-is-a-short-term-economic-hit-the-uk-economy-will-be-back-to-business-as-usual-within-a-couple-of-3/?notes


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[Airbagwill]

Really referendum is irrelevant - the original is flawed in concept and basically the whole kit-and-caboodle should be thrown out... period.

[aright]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_deficit_in_the_European_Union

looks like attachment didn't work so here it is again. For those with a serious interest (obsessive even) this gives a balanced view of a complex issue. I look on it as work in progress; it should be improved not trashed.

Firstly This from Wikipedia itself.

Wikipedia editors know that the site should not be used as a primary source for research.

Many schools and universities do not accept Wikipedia as a source, except most of them do not want any encyclopedias used - they want primary sources instead.

Firstly I can accept much of what Wiki says although I find it too formulaic, but when I try to conjoin it with independent??? opinions and my own anecdotal opinions/experience I can find no cadence.

If Wikipedia is as good as some people think it could rule the world.

Secondly a simple question.

What is so frightening about standing on our own two feet, politically and socially, in a developing world, trading with whom we like? What are you afraid of?

An answer to this question might help me make your journey to Damascus easier. 

 

 

[sandyf]

23 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

A pity it is mostly about Denmark and written in a pro remain newspaper that gives it the slant against Brexit. Nothing like a bit of bias to keep stirring the pot.

A danish poll would be about Denmark but there are those that maintain that member states are queuing up to leave the EU. I think the the 28 percent could be considered outside any margin of error.

At the end of the day the source is immaterial, statements, reports, meetings or events either happen or they don't, its the facts that count not journalistic opinion. The Independent just happens to be one that does not try and con you into a subscription.

[Johnnyondaspot]

You'll get what you deserve.  Oh, how far you've fallen, Britain

[aright]

20 minutes ago, sandyf said:

 The Independent just happens to be one that does not try and con you into a subscription.

Neither did Der Sturmer. Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

[dunroaming]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes. I deny and resent this because the statement is untrue. Political name-calling is easy isn't it? Some hard right wingers probably formed a component of the leave vote but only as a very small minority. 

 

And you might have a good look the lives and histories of some of the original EU "founders" before you start slinging that fascist rock about! 

 

The sooner we scrap treating Brexit as if it is a right versus left issue the better.  It isn't.  The constant need to put people in boxes is boring, futile and just plain dumb.

[Airbagwill]

5 hours ago, nauseus said:

Yes. I deny and resent this because the statement is untrue. Political name-calling is easy isn't it? Some hard right wingers probably formed a component of the leave vote but only as a very small minority. 

 

And you might have a good look the lives and histories of some of the original EU "founders" before you start slinging that fascist rock about! 

 

Not all Brexiteers are racists, but all RACISTS are Brexiteers, which box are you most comfortable with?

I find it rather disturbing that some Brexiteers don't realise that they are wholeheartedly aligning with the hard right.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, nauseus said:

Thatcher saw the light too late. As soon as the TUC (Tory Europhile Club)  realised that she was likely to fight with and possibly pull out of the EEC, the daggers were out and she was gone. In 1990, Major and his like feared an EEC exit.

 

It would have been interesting to see the results, if she had been given a chance, If she had we probably would left before the EEC mutated into the EU. Sad really.

I honestly feel she would have worked well with Merkel and sorted the thing out

[Orac]

I honestly feel she would have worked well with Merkel and sorted the thing out

At least Mrs T had a sense of purpose and self belief about her - the current PM has as much charisma as a damp sponge. I think the low point must have been the speech she gave to a herd of cows last week that Sky cut away from half way through because it was so boring.

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/979386470904549376/pu/pl/Myn5RHFtSu9qQ8Eb.m3u8



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