Is One Million Baht Enough?

[gk10002000]

I am 61 male, non smoker, no pre-existing conditions.  Looking at the Bupa/Aetna site they have a range of plans.  The basic platinum covers 1 million baht for each "disability" which define as each illness.  So if one had a heart attack, they would cover 1 Million, then if one had broken legs they would also cover 1 million, etc.  Not withstanding fine print that may raise your rates at any time, but that is a different issue.  Is one million enough for reasonable major procedures or treatments?  Say broken legs, or an appendix removal.  I am not expecting any major issues, but suppose some intestinal surgery, some cancer treatment, etc.  Any experience and costs along those lines would help.

 

Thanks

[FritsSikkink]

Depends if you go to a private hospital or a government one.

[moonseeker]

An absolute NO!!! Not even with the special tariffs the insurances have with hospitals. There are numerous diseases, acute or chronic that could cost you many Mio's to get proper treatment in one of the better private hospitals. 

Your 1 Mio might be used after a basic invasive surgery and a few days in ICU. To give you an example. I am non-smoker, non-drinker, was top-fit and have been diagnosed with 2 different cancers in 2 years. Cost me a total of min. 15 Mio easily so far, incl. surgeries and ongoing cancer treatment.

Had a friend with lung-cancer, smoker. Spent 7,5 Mio within 2 years until he dropped dead. Have a friend with a serious fall and head trauma. Spent 15 days in ICU and 2 more weeks in regular room in one of the cheaper private hospitals, was treated well and fully recovered after many  scans and problems. Cost almost 2.2 Mio. Could give many more examples. O.c. you can hope for the best, BUT prepare for the worst, I feel is much better and safer. Good luck.  MS>

 

[stevenl]

1 mio is enough for one off treatments like appendicitis in any hospital. It may even be enough for something more complicated in a government hospital.

[XGM]

11 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

  Is one million enough for reasonable major procedures or treatments?  Say broken legs, or an appendix removal.  I am not expecting any major issues, but suppose some intestinal surgery, some cancer treatment, etc.

It will be more than enough for "broken legs", but if you have anything serious that requires lengthy ICU hospitalization, it will probably not be enough. In Bumrungrad you can easily get a bill of 100,000 - 200,000 baht a day for ICU hospitalization not including any expensive operations.

 

Any cancer treatments AFAIK are not covered by Bupa/Aetna anyway so you will have to pay for that out of your own pocket.

Edited March 12, 2018 by XGM

[moonseeker]

To give u an idea........Newer immune-system cancer therapy can run from 200K - 800K PER INFUSION in TH!!!! And cancer can hit anytime, anyone.

Even more basic and older therapies are very costly. Another recent case. Very early throat cancer a 75 yr. old friend is going through. Treatment in Chonburi Public Hospital and some earlybasic investigations & interventions in cheaper private hospital. About 45 days total hospitalization, radiation and scans and usual tests.....in last few months. Total spent, all his savings of......1.4 Mio.......And read the small print!!!!!  Have a nice day.  MS>

[GinBoy2]

I seem to recall a while back Sheryl, our resident medical expert did a review of the then Bupa policies and concluded that with the exclusions & exceptions the 1M policy was hardly worth the paper it was written on.

Sheryl, sorry if I'm paraphrasing or misquoting.....my memory ain't what it used to be, and no health plan is going to fix that!

[Sheryl]

15 hours ago, GinBoy2 said:

I seem to recall a while back Sheryl, our resident medical expert did a review of the then Bupa policies and concluded that with the exclusions & exceptions the 1M policy was hardly worth the paper it was written on.

Sheryl, sorry if I'm paraphrasing or misquoting.....my memory ain't what it used to be, and no health plan is going to fix that!

There is no issue with exclusions and exemptions, though individual people might face exclusions due to pre-existing conditions.

 

1 million is an insufficient level of cover unless one is prepared to use only government hospitals, and even there it is possible to run up a tab of over 1 million.

 

You can get 5 million with BUPA Platinum and that would be more approrpaite.

 

Issues with BUPA specifically had to do with raising rates on an individual basis based on changes in health status. This is legal for Thai-based insurers but not usually allowed under insurance regulations in western countries. BUPA Thailand has now been bought out by Aetna so not sure how that will influence things.

 

There have also been issues with BUPA staff's lack of medical knowledge and misinterpretation of medical information leading to worng assumptions about pre-exisitng and current health problems. As this is more of a human resource than policy issue, not sure we can expect much change there. That said, healthy people with no pre-exisitng conditions who do not have a major claim in the first 1-2 years of their policy usually do nto have a problem.

 

OP - you are focusing in the wrong issue in wanting to know what things like a simple appendectomy would cost. If that were all that could happen you would do better to self-insure. Insure is necessary because no one - and I mean NO ONE no matter how young or healthy now - is immune form major accidents and catastrophic illnesses.

 

 

[JLCrab]

44 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

<snip>

Issues with BUPA specifically had to do with raising rates on an individual basis based on changes in health status. This is legal for Thai-based insurers but not usually allowed under insurance regulations in western countries. BUPA Thailand has now been bought out by Aetna so not sure how that will influence things.

<snip2>

CIGNA (per the cigna.co.th website) was licensed as a non-life insurer in Thailand in 2006. The official name for CIGNA Global in Thailand since 2007 is Cigna Insurance Public Company Limited.

 

The official name for Aetna (formerly BUPA) in Thailand as of 2017 is Aetna Health Insurance (Thailand) Public Company Limited.

Edited March 13, 2018 by JLCrab

[ExpatOilWorker]

On 3/12/2018 at 11:49 AM, stevenl said:

1 mio is enough for one off treatments like appendicitis in any hospital. It may even be enough for something more complicated in a government hospital.

1 million is plenty!

 

Bumrungrad is expensive and they quote:

Surgery :

appendectomy : 135,170 baht(4,128 USD)

coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) : 993,480 baht (30,340 USD).

coronary angiogram : 96,382 baht (2,943 USD)

percutaneous coronary artery angioplasty (one vessel, PTCA) : 414,911 baht (12,671 USD)

total hip replacement : 547,910 baht (16,733 USD)

arthroscopic anterior cruciate ligament knee surgery : 316,093 baht (9,653 USD)

total knee replacement : 460,322 baht (14,058 USD)

TUR-prostate : 181,742 baht (5,550 USD)

tonsillectomy : 114,870 baht (3,508 USD)

mastectomy : 160,534 baht (4,903 USD)

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/bumrungrad-prices.asp

 

Others shop around: "I had appendicitis surgery recently. Did it at a government hospital in Victory Monument (Rajavithi Hospital). Total cost, including the surgery, CT scan, four-day stay, and scoping for kidney stones cost me 24,000 baht."

 

 

[XGM]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

1 million is plenty!

 

Bumrungrad is expensive and they quote:

The numbers there are one item in the final bill you receive. Just for the operation itself. Not including ICU, room cost, doctors examinations, X-Rays / CT / MRI / lab tests (those can be very high), medicines, nurses fees, followup procedures, etc, etc. 

 

By the way, if the procedure does not require hospitalization (as can be the case with gallbladder removal), it will not be covered at all by the standard Bupa In-Patient policies, or if it's an emergency, just as "emergency accidential treatment" (up to 10,000 baht in their 1 million baht plan, or up to 20,000 baht in their 5 million plan).

Edited March 13, 2018 by XGM

[Sheryl]

1 million is plenty!
 
Bumrungrad is expensive and they quote:

Surgery :

appendectomy : 135,170 baht(4,128 USD)

coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) : 993,480 baht (30,340 USD).

coronary angiogram : 96,382 baht (2,943 USD)

percutaneous coronary artery angioplasty (one vessel, PTCA) : 414,911 baht (12,671 USD)

total hip replacement : 547,910 baht (16,733 USD)

arthroscopic anterior cruciate ligament knee surgery : 316,093 baht (9,653 USD)

total knee replacement : 460,322 baht (14,058 USD)

TUR-prostate : 181,742 baht (5,550 USD)

tonsillectomy : 114,870 baht (3,508 USD)

mastectomy : 160,534 baht (4,903 USD)

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/bumrungrad-prices.asp

 

Others shop around: "I had appendicitis surgery recently. Did it at a government hospital in Victory Monument (Rajavithi Hospital). Total cost, including the surgery, CT scan, four-day stay, and scoping for kidney stones cost me 24,000 baht."

 

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These costs are for the procedure only. They do not factor in complications, repeat surgeries, prolonged ICU care etc. . I have seen countless cases of bills in excess of 3 million on a single hospitalization here.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[simoh1490]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

1 million is plenty!

 

Bumrungrad is expensive and they quote:

Surgery :

appendectomy : 135,170 baht(4,128 USD)

coronary artery bypass surgery (CABG) : 993,480 baht (30,340 USD).

coronary angiogram : 96,382 baht (2,943 USD)

percutaneous coronary artery angioplasty (one vessel, PTCA) : 414,911 baht (12,671 USD)

total hip replacement : 547,910 baht (16,733 USD)

arthroscopic anterior cruciate ligament knee surgery : 316,093 baht (9,653 USD)

total knee replacement : 460,322 baht (14,058 USD)

TUR-prostate : 181,742 baht (5,550 USD)

tonsillectomy : 114,870 baht (3,508 USD)

mastectomy : 160,534 baht (4,903 USD)

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/bumrungrad-prices.asp

 

Others shop around: "I had appendicitis surgery recently. Did it at a government hospital in Victory Monument (Rajavithi Hospital). Total cost, including the surgery, CT scan, four-day stay, and scoping for kidney stones cost me 24,000 baht."

 

 

Those prices seem way too high to me, even for Bumrungrad. Also, there are packages prices for many ops/procedures, CABG is typically about 650k, an angiogram with PCTA is around 200k and a hip replacement is also about 250k. https://www.bumrungrad.com/en/packages-promotions

[JLCrab]

BTW I realize with my post above that one can purchase CIGNA Global policy directly from the office in London UK which would be subject to UK regs but you can also do the same with Aetna International in UK.

[Suradit69]

On 3/12/2018 at 1:35 AM, gk10002000 said:

I am 61 male, non smoker, no pre-existing conditions.

I thought the cut-off age for initiating coverage was 60 if you expected to be allowed to continue coverage past 70.

At 61, I believe, their standard coverage would only be "guaranteed" up to age 70.

 

[pby92]

So what is the good coverage plan 7.5 millions 11.5 millions?

[Jonmarleesco]

A serious illness - cardiac arrest, for instance - might well go beyond the million Baht. Hence international companies have annual limits in excess of $250,000, just for their low-cost plans. Higher-cost plans will likely come without sub-limits. But I would avoid Aetna like the plague. Their 'competence' has to be experienced to be believed.

[gk10002000]

12 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

I thought the cut-off age for initiating coverage was 60 if you expected to be allowed to continue coverage past 70.

At 61, I believe, their standard coverage would only be "guaranteed" up to age 70.

 

That's fine. At 65 I will do USA Medicare, and travel back to the USA as needed, or conversely, travel to Thailand from the USA if my health allows it

[Suradit69]

2 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

That's fine. At 65 I will do USA Medicare, and travel back to the USA as needed, or conversely, travel to Thailand from the USA if my health allows it

Yes, I dropped BUPA when my pension linked medical coverage kicked in. It pays for everything related to health, dental and glasses even in Thailand.

 

But if you happen to feel fine while in Thailand and suffer a stroke or heart attack, or have a serious accident, traveling back to the US for treatment won't be an easy thing to do.

[gk10002000]

40 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

Yes, I dropped BUPA when my pension linked medical coverage kicked in. It pays for everything related to health, dental and glasses even in Thailand.

 

But if you happen to feel fine while in Thailand and suffer a stroke or heart attack, or have a serious accident, traveling back to the US for treatment won't be an easy thing to do.

yep.   USA Medicare is problematic when out of the USA.   And Thai Medical is and is getting very expensive for seniors.  Still have a few years before having to worry about it.  And at the moment, future years won't require Obamacare plans from the Health gov website, so there may be other insurance products out there.   It is a challenging and evolving environment

[gamesgplayemail]

ACS is 500000 USD.

[impulse]

16 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Still have a few years before having to worry about it.

 

If you don't need it tomorrow...  My CABG cost 2,000,000 baht, all in, plus another 30-50,000 a month for the next year for follow ups, therapy, meds, etc.  (Bumrungrad)  Two days before I had it, I'd have claimed "no pre-existing conditions", and I had the signed medical certificates to prove it.

 

My question is more like, "what do you do after you reach the limit?"  (Or when the Thai insurance company raises your rates to the point you can't afford their coverage, and nobody else will pick you up because of your condition)   Do you derail your entire retirement dream and go back home where you can get covered?   Don't get me wrong, that's a viable plan.  But a dream killer.

 

One million would cover you for about 95% of a typical expat's medical needs.  But you buy insurance to spread the risk, just in case you're in the unlucky minority.  Which happened to me, and I didn't pay a baht out of my pocket.  Sadly, it was employer provided insurance so not everyone can be as lucky.

 

Edit:  BTW, as bad as 2,000,000 Baht sounds, I recently read about a guy in the USA that went $900,000 (27 million baht) into debt for the same surgery back home.  Yikes.

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by impulse

[HampiK]

That's the problem which many like to forget, that an Insurance is not for the small problems.
It is there for the bad luck case, where the costs are really high. And hopefully 95% of the people have insurance will never use/have this incident.
But in the small case you will be one of the unlucky guys you can be lucky when you have an Insurance which will cover for you.
Of course if you die with 90 years and never had to go into hospital or something then you can tell that you throw out the money on a window but... you were safe in the case of an incident.
 

Edited March 15, 2018 by HampiK

[XGM]

53 minutes ago, HampiK said:

That's the problem which many like to forget, that an Insurance is not for the small problems.
It is there for the bad luck case, where the costs are really high. And hopefully 95% of the people have insurance will never use/have this incident.

And, the chances rise with age.

And, if you wait until you have a problem and only then consider insurance, it will be a pre-existing condition and you won't be covered.

[gk10002000]

10 hours ago, impulse said:

 

If you don't need it tomorrow...  My CABG cost 2,000,000 baht, all in, plus another 30-50,000 a month for the next year for follow ups, therapy, meds, etc.  (Bumrungrad)  Two days before I had it, I'd have claimed "no pre-existing conditions", and I had the signed medical certificates to prove it.

 

My question is more like, "what do you do after you reach the limit?"  (Or when the Thai insurance company raises your rates to the point you can't afford their coverage, and nobody else will pick you up because of your condition)   Do you derail your entire retirement dream and go back home where you can get covered?   Don't get me wrong, that's a viable plan.  But a dream killer.

 

One million would cover you for about 95% of a typical expat's medical needs.  But you buy insurance to spread the risk, just in case you're in the unlucky minority.  Which happened to me, and I didn't pay a baht out of my pocket.  Sadly, it was employer provided insurance so not everyone can be as lucky.

 

Edit:  BTW, as bad as 2,000,000 Baht sounds, I recently read about a guy in the USA that went $900,000 (27 million baht) into debt for the same surgery back home.  Yikes.

 

What is CABG?

[impulse]

37 minutes ago, gk10002000 said:

What is CABG?

 

Coronary Artery Bypass Graft, AKA Bypass surgery.

[simon43]

I just renewed my policy with Healthcare International, (a UK policy).

I have their ''lowest' policy. But it still provides about 16.5 million baht medical cover each year, plus emergency medical evacuation (I work in Myanmar, so that's a definite requirement).

$915 USD per annum ==> about 2,500 THB per month. I'm 59 years old.

As HampiK said:

Of course if you die with 90 years and never had to go into hospital or something then you can tell that you throw out the money on a window but... you were safe in the case of an incident.

... and that's how I regard medical insurance. It's to pay for treatment in case of serious illness or accident, and to provide peace of mind that I will hopefully be able to afford decent medical treatment if those events happen.

[campyk]

3 hours ago, simon43 said:

I just renewed my policy with Healthcare International, (a UK policy).

I have their ''lowest' policy. But it still provides about 16.5 million baht medical cover each year, plus emergency medical evacuation (I work in Myanmar, so that's a definite requirement).

$915 USD per annum ==> about 2,500 THB per month. I'm 59 years old.

 

It seems it’s pretty cheap for a reason. They cover only up to $20k per lifetime in case of “dread” disease in their bottom 3 plans. Is it same insurer/policy? I found this table at  https://www.healthcareinternational.com/medical-plans-usd

Edited March 16, 2018 by campyk

[campyk]

3 hours ago, campyk said:

It seems it’s pretty cheap for a reason. They cover only up to $20k per lifetime in case of “dread” disease in their bottom 3 plans. Is it same insurer/policy? I found this table at  https://www.healthcareinternational.com/medical-plans-usd

Sorry i found a refutation to my words. It seems this clause is only about palliative treatments. Which makes this policy pretty nice to have  (and to pay for) i guess.

[gamesgplayemail]

In case some people are looking, you should try ACS.