Squatter problem on land

[tassieman]

Dear All, advice if possible. My wife owns a lovely piece of land outside of Chachoengsao which she used to run a prawn farm on in the 1990s and subsequently let to other farmers when she moved back to BKK. Anyway, to cut a long story short, we have started to clear up the property and leased two of the ponds to local farmers etc who have stocked them with fish. Another local (an fairly old woman) has been growing a few bananas in one corner of the block and has formed the deluded view that she has some rights to that area. After the ponds were restocked she had a fence hastily erected and lo and behold most of the fish have mysteriously died (obviously poisoned as a neighbour's dog died after eating one of the fish carcases and the local and abundant birdlife has shown no interest in what would normally be a feast of fish). The local constabulary (altho sympathetic) has advised our tenants they can knock the fence down and cut down the banana trees but will not act directly against this squatter until my wife obtains a court order confirming she owns the land. We have engaged a local lawyer in Phanon Sarakam to help. So, why write here asking for advice (more for moral support actually....)? For some inexplicable reason, the lawyer wants to set up a hearing with both "parties" (us and the squatter). I am trying to get it through to my dearest that all that's required is for us to obtain a court order that acknowledges her ownership of the land (based various documents of sale etc) which we then take to the police so they can then prosecute action against the squatter. There's absolutely no need to even tell the squatter of our intentions...just do what the police have advised and go from there. Someone PLEASE tell me that such an undertaking is possible (even quite routine?) in Thailand. Thanks in anticipation.

[ezzra]

The best advice will be is to pay the woman and get her out of your lives

because even if you were successful in obtaining court order against her

her wrath and loathing of a ' rich landowners' will not go away,

i believe that for the right amount she can be bought and made to go away

for good....

[cornishcarlos]

There is no logic where things like this are concerned... 

The woman probably does think she now owns the land, through her banana trees :) 

We've had similar issues with a couple of plots but luckily they got sorted very quickly.. 

[cooked]

I may well be wrong but as far as I know there is such a thing as squatters rights, if they have been allowed to cultivate land for (?) seven  years then they can continue to use it. I read about people allowing the neighbour's banana trees to spread onto their land only to learn that they had lost rights. So you don't lose ownership, just your rights to use the land.

I really would go for a hearing before going to court, you will gain respect in the village even though it will likely cost you. The old village justice system is still a major factor in many peoples' thinking. A court decision can be appealed, dragged out, involve further fees. 

[cornishcarlos]

6 minutes ago, cooked said:

I may well be wrong but as far as I know there is such a thing as squatters rights, if they have been allowed to cultivate land for (?) seven  years then they can continue to use it. I read about people allowing the neighbour's banana trees to spread onto their land only to learn that they had lost rights. So you don't lose ownership, just your rights to use the land.

I really would go for a hearing before going to court, you will gain respect in the village even though it will likely cost you. The old village justice system is still a major factor in many peoples' thinking. A court decision can be appealed, dragged out, involve further fees. 

 

I think it's 10 yrs ?? I made sure my wife got a rental contract from the guy she was letting cultivate the land, even though he wasn't paying anything.

This way she still retains owners rights, as he technically is leasing the plot and not squatting...

[sanemax]

22 minutes ago, tassieman said:

For some inexplicable reason, the lawyer wants to set up a hearing with both "parties" (us and the squatter)

That sounds like a good idea .

Try to sort the situation out amicably, rather then legally .

The squatter may leave , once she realises that lawyers are involved

[AsiaCheese]

The local land office will make an assessment (against a fee) and put markers at the corners. With the chanot and their report, you can go to the police and request a court order for eviction. But - as said above, paying the squatter off might be the less painful way.

Edited April 5, 2018 by AsiaCheese

[ThaidDown]

It depends how long this woman has been using the land. If less than 10 years then she can be summarily evicted.

 

If she can show that she has been using the land, unhindered, for more than 10 years she may have gained ownership rights by way of adverse possession.

 

The 'meeting'  is just a way to find an amicable solution before proceeding to court. Payment for her current crop (at wholesale rates) may be all that is required.

 

 

[Weddings Parties Anything]

It may be an 'arbitration' is advisable, even if it is doomed to failure. At least then the court can't order it or suggest it, as it has been tried. This will further delay hearings. We live next to a large plot in Bangkok which has taken about 4 years (and counting) to evict people. They had been there for decades and have dragged it out.

 

The owner has taken them to court piecemeal, and as each tenant is finally evicted, he puts big signs around the plots saying 'this is private land, no trespassing' etc etc. It confirms his rights to the land, but it is slow going.

[tassieman]

[OP reply] Many thanks for all helpful comments/advice. The old woman squatter  is both obstinate, mischievous and crafty. We have met with the Head of Village (HoV) who judged for my wife but the squatter is simply ignoring the HoV. A couple of years ago when my wife first learned of the problem she offered the woman BT30K but she rejected this and this year - once we started clearing - the squatter asked for BT300K...but at least the squatter has only grown a few bananas on a small section of the land for three years.

 

The core of the problem as I see it (other than my wife's inexcusable ignoring of what really is a beautiful piece of river frontage property as per attached!!!!) is that the parcel of land the old woman is trying to lay claim to is not on the larger property's chanot but was included in the purchase deeds when my wife first bought the land in the 1990s and was farmed by her for five years after which she leased all the property (that covered by the chanot and that included in the original sale) for approx. 10 years until about 2012.

 

Anyway, sadly, amicable/tradition problem solving mechanisms have been exhausted and the squatter's financial demands are exorbitant. Also, as I said to my wife, even if we paid her the 300K, given the squatter's bloodymindedness and lack of respect for the HoV, what's to ensure her departure and/or another local simply filling her spot as it were with hands outstretched for more $$.

 

The police at least have given us permission to knock the fence down and cut down the banana trees (which we will do) but won't physically evict the squatter without a court order that recognizes my wife as the owner of the land in question which will allow us to go back to the police and request summary, physical eviction. My issue is that my wife's lawyer doesn't want to simply achieve this but to set up a court hearing that will involve the old woman to determine the legitimacy of her claims to the land in question. My argument to my wife is that we will be doing the old woman's work for her! Get the court to acknowledge my wife's ownership of the all the land, and get the squatter evicted by the police (and hopefully charged with damage to property).

 

If the squatter then wants to challenge the court's ruling then let her do it at her expense and inconvenience.

 

 

 

[Scouse123]

You should try talking first, even though you know you are wasting your time because when you go to court the judge will adjourn and say just that! Compromise and reach a solution. Get witness statements via a lawyer from the HOV as you call him etc.

 

Atr least if you do this in advance, you can go to the Judge with evidence that the woman refuses to compromise and is making silly demands.

 

It could help you in the long run and avoid unnecessary adjournments in proceedings because they always ' kick the ball into the distant future ' so the next hearing could be six months down the line and so on...

[lemonjelly]

Don’t bother negotiating with her, just get a backhoe in and clear her stuff out, the police have given you the all clear, she’s taking the p1$$ and she knows it.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[weegee]

23 minutes ago, lemonjelly said:

Don’t bother negotiating with her, just get a backhoe in and clear her stuff out, the police have given you the all clear, she’s taking the p1$$ and she knows it.


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

I agree totally with this....If you have Papers for the land in hand, START digging. She cant stop you in time and when the trees (Banana) are gone the issue is over...if she wants to contest AFTER the trees are gone and you have marked the boundaries, she has to take you to court, and thats going to cost her money upfront. She wont do it as she knows she is in the wrong.... 

[chrissables]

20 minutes ago, weegee said:

I agree totally with this....If you have Papers for the land in hand, START digging. She cant stop you in time and when the trees (Banana) are gone the issue is over...if she wants to contest AFTER the trees are gone and you have marked the boundaries, she has to take you to court, and thats going to cost her money upfront. She wont do it as she knows she is in the wrong.... 

If she poisoned the pond, poison the land in return, just enough to kill the banana plants, cheaper than getting machinery in. As you said, then she has to take you to court.

[55Jay]

Never could wrap my head around squatter's rights.  Village I lived in for 4 years, everybody knows where the farangs live, who's shagging who, where to buy yabba, and who owns the land - if not directly, they know the family.   She knows and is just taking the piss.  Ask nicely, then plow it under.

Edited April 5, 2018 by 55Jay

[Formaleins]

1 hour ago, tassieman said:

[OP reply] Many thanks for all helpful comments/advice. The old woman squatter  is both obstinate, mischievous and crafty. We have met with the Head of Village (HoV) who judged for my wife but the squatter is simply ignoring the HoV. A couple of years ago when my wife first learned of the problem she offered the woman BT30K but she rejected this and this year - once we started clearing - the squatter asked for BT300K...but at least the squatter has only grown a few bananas on a small section of the land for three years.

 

The core of the problem as I see it (other than my wife's inexcusable ignoring of what really is a beautiful piece of river frontage property as per attached!!!!) is that the parcel of land the old woman is trying to lay claim to is not on the larger property's chanot but was included in the purchase deeds when my wife first bought the land in the 1990s and was farmed by her for five years after which she leased all the property (that covered by the chanot and that included in the original sale) for approx. 10 years until about 2012.

 

Anyway, sadly, amicable/tradition problem solving mechanisms have been exhausted and the squatter's financial demands are exorbitant. Also, as I said to my wife, even if we paid her the 300K, given the squatter's bloodymindedness and lack of respect for the HoV, what's to ensure her departure and/or another local simply filling her spot as it were with hands outstretched for more $$.

 

The police at least have given us permission to knock the fence down and cut down the banana trees (which we will do) but won't physically evict the squatter without a court order that recognizes my wife as the owner of the land in question which will allow us to go back to the police and request summary, physical eviction. My issue is that my wife's lawyer doesn't want to simply achieve this but to set up a court hearing that will involve the old woman to determine the legitimacy of her claims to the land in question. My argument to my wife is that we will be doing the old woman's work for her! Get the court to acknowledge my wife's ownership of the all the land, and get the squatter evicted by the police (and hopefully charged with damage to property).

 

If the squatter then wants to challenge the court's ruling then let her do it at her expense and inconvenience.

 

 

 

If the head man in the village has OK'd it for your wife then I would just hire a guy with a tractor and plough the lot of it up - I certainly would not be giving her one Satang!

Why not issue her with an extortionate rental agreement?

The cheek of some of these old gits is unbelievable - We have one who has been planting bamboo on government land that adjoins our plot - Under normal circumstances, we would normally have the right to use that land, but the fact that he has been on it for quite a few years sort of gives him more clout. A few years back, his bamboo began getting further and further into the edges of our land, (he was deliberately planting more and more) In the end I just marked out the border of our land, (local land office measured up and marked the chanotes) Then I got a tractor in and ploughed up the lot of it. Never had a problem since.

My wife wanted to offer him 50K to buy up his bamboo and get rid of him, like I say, I am not into paying these gits any money, so he can keep his bamboo, after all it is government land so it does not interest me at all.

[tassieman]

[OP reply] cheers n thnx again. Yes, I agree with the p%$$ take analysis (not-so) funnily enuf...the old xyz always wears this supercilious grin that somehow she is sticking it up the rich city folk (plus farang to boot etc).

 

I think I have managed to convince my dearest to instruct the lawyer to stay with the KISS principle and let the old so-n-so start her own proceedings if she wants after we knock down the fence n trees and bill her for the manpower $$$ (which I don't think she will cos I have a more than sneaking suspicion that there's some grotesque narcissism at play here in her behavior etc..."look at me...aren't I a clever peasant to cause so much angst blah blah blah").

 

It's been an interesting exercise trying to explain to my wife the notion of 'taking the p%$$' lol. Thanks again.

[Media1]

5 hours ago, ezzra said:

The best advice will be is to pay the woman and get her out of your lives

because even if you were successful in obtaining court order against her

her wrath and loathing of a ' rich landowners' will not go away,

i believe that for the right amount she can be bought and made to go away

for good....

LOL pay nothing hire a bulldozer and 3 boys. Have the land titles and mow her out.

Give her 24 hours notice 7 days eviction. Also give her a rental bill of the back rent she owes your wife The police do not own your land you do period 

Have your lawyer write the eviction  notice. You should not have to pay to remove trash from what is yours. This old cretin has no deed to land

Remove herself or the machinery will

Edited April 5, 2018 by Media1

[johnson36]

Media1

 

I agree.

 

Just cut the trees down, problem gone.

[Media1]

32 minutes ago, tassieman said:

[OP reply] cheers n thnx again. Yes, I agree with the p%$$ take analysis (not-so) funnily enuf...the old xyz always wears this supercilious grin that somehow she is sticking it up the rich city folk (plus farang to boot etc).

 

I think I have managed to convince my dearest to instruct the lawyer to stay with the KISS principle and let the old so-n-so start her own proceedings if she wants after we knock down the fence n trees and bill her for the manpower $$$ (which I don't think she will cos I have a more than sneaking suspicion that there's some grotesque narcissism at play here in her behavior etc..."look at me...aren't I a clever peasant to cause so much angst blah blah blah").

 

It's been an interesting exercise trying to explain to my wife the notion of 'taking the p%$$' lol. Thanks again.

dont be fooled by embeciles in this country. She is a criminal trying to steal land. Make another police report when you are 100% shore you have the land title that has been checked and boundaries are clear. Bring the dozer in clear your land 7 days notice. The police must remove this thief. It's enroachment and theft. She has nothing. Go steal from another. l had this happen to my wife. 2boys and myself. Goodbye and don't enter our land again. Or we charge you. The police will try to f you around and lie

I fenced it off left my 2 pit bulls.

They won't eat from anybody but me. Not even the wife no matter how hungry. And there not friendly to others unless they know there with us

Edited April 5, 2018 by Media1
spell

[eisfeld]

Do NOT pay her. She or someone else could see that as acknowledgement that she had some kind of right to the land. Establish your wifes rights to the land first via land office (they will do a survey for a fee and put concrete posts with government stamp in the ground) and then via court. After this, remove the fence she errected and the trees. Have her evicted and buy some cheap surveillance cameras. If she tries then anything funny, get the police and courts on her ass. Maybe at that point she'll realise that she better stop. If not, let it escalate until she gives up. Chances are, she will give up before that. Bullying works just as long as they think they can get away with it.

 

About the lawyer: he's not supposed to be an arbitor. There's no arbitration. You are paying him and he should solely work for your interests. If he doesn't do that, get another lawyer. You'd be surprised how bad the lawyers are in up-country.

[Media1]

36 minutes ago, tassieman said:

[OP reply] cheers n thnx again. Yes, I agree with the p%$$ take analysis (not-so) funnily enuf...the old xyz always wears this supercilious grin that somehow she is sticking it up the rich city folk (plus farang to boot etc).

 

I think I have managed to convince my dearest to instruct the lawyer to stay with the KISS principle and let the old so-n-so start her own proceedings if she wants after we knock down the fence n trees and bill her for the manpower $$$ (which I don't think she will cos I have a more than sneaking suspicion that there's some grotesque narcissism at play here in her behavior etc..."look at me...aren't I a clever peasant to cause so much angst blah blah blah").

 

It's been an interesting exercise trying to explain to my wife the notion of 'taking the p%$$' lol. Thanks again.

That's Prayut reforms in action lol. Obviously his Nyim project. Do good things never took off

[Media1]

6 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

There is no logic where things like this are concerned... 

The woman probably does think she now owns the land, through her banana trees :) 

We've had similar issues with a couple of plots but luckily they got sorted very quickly.. 

who cares what the fat rat thinks

[Media1]

6 hours ago, cooked said:

I may well be wrong but as far as I know there is such a thing as squatters rights, if they have been allowed to cultivate land for (?) seven  years then they can continue to use it. I read about people allowing the neighbour's banana trees to spread onto their land only to learn that they had lost rights. So you don't lose ownership, just your rights to use the land.

I really would go for a hearing before going to court, you will gain respect in the village even though it will likely cost you. The old village justice system is still a major factor in many peoples' thinking. A court decision can be appealed, dragged out, involve further fees. 

Bullshit 

[cooked]

12 minutes ago, Media1 said:

Bullshit 

great informative comment, thanks. What specifically?

[tassieman]

omg....it must be drinking time lol....hey guys (n gals?) I really appreciate the input/feedback about all of this...most importantly my wife (to whom I have read and tried to explain all of the comments) seems to have learned something and developed a bit of backbone about the situation (she's old school sweet Buddhist Thai who still believes in the Dream). She is intimidated by the old woman I think and your responses have helped to galvanise my advice in terms of some more direct action. So I thank you all for this. TM

[khunPer]

10 hours ago, tassieman said:

Someone PLEASE tell me that such an undertaking is possible (even quite routine?) in Thailand. Thanks in anticipation.

From what I remember to have read in various articles, squatters can actually claim habitation or right of land, i.e. legal ownership, after a number of years occupying the land without being removed. The length had to do with the title deed.

 

I instantly found two articles at usually reliable sources (search for squatter at the pages), both says almost the same...

Quote

Under Thai law, squatters who occupied another person's land without permission can eventually claim ownership of the said land parcels if the land's rightful owner was not able to evict them in a certain period of time. A Chanote title deed gives land owners 10 years to evict the squatters from their land before they lose their ownership.

[...]

Landowners who own land titled with a Confirmed Certificate of Use [Nor Sor 3] only have one year to remove squatters before the squatters gain ownership through hostile possession.

Source: Thai Title Deeds (Siam Legal)

and

Quote

Nor Sor Si (4) Jor (Chanote)

...If a squatter is in possession of land for an uninterrupted period of 10 years in case of a Chanote (section 1382) ('and have peacefully and openly possessed the property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner he acquires ownership of it'), they can apply to the Land Office for a deed of ownership. So, if you hold land under Chanote but a squatter takes possession and you do nothing to remove that squatter from the land for 10 years, then you could lose that land to the squatter. As this is only one year in case of possession (section 1374 Civil and Commercial Code) it is not uncommon for someone else to claim possession over (part of) such land.

Source: Thailand Land Title Deeds (SamuiForSale)

 

I also often hear that if you posses some land, making a fence around it shows that you use the land, and claim ownership. I've always been told that if I – or rather my Thai partner, or a company – buy unfenced land, make a fence, just a simple fence will often do, and clean the land to show it's being used. (I haven't looked for link references, I just mention it from memory).

 

Presume you need to let your lawyer to deal with this, as it might not be that straight forward.

[Media1]

7 hours ago, eisfeld said:

Do NOT pay her. She or someone else could see that as acknowledgement that she had some kind of right to the land. Establish your wifes rights to the land first via land office (they will do a survey for a fee and put concrete posts with government stamp in the ground) and then via court. After this, remove the fence she errected and the trees. Have her evicted and buy some cheap surveillance cameras. If she tries then anything funny, get the police and courts on her ass. Maybe at that point she'll realise that she better stop. If not, let it escalate until she gives up. Chances are, she will give up before that. Bullying works just as long as they think they can get away with it.

 

About the lawyer: he's not supposed to be an arbitor. There's no arbitration. You are paying him and he should solely work for your interests. If he doesn't do that, get another lawyer. You'd be surprised how bad the lawyers are in up-country.

she has no brains no money and is nothing more than a pest remove her trees remove all.including fence and erect a fence same day..Sign PRIVATE PROPERTY intruders prosecuted.

Skip the courts no need lol..She has no land deeds nothing..Just a low rat that needs to be locked up. 

She will.scurry away no money for lawyers. Thai lawyer brain dead useless you not need. You do need the land ownership.papers. The rest is history

Edited April 5, 2018 by Media1

[Media1]

13 hours ago, sanemax said:

That sounds like a good idea .

Try to sort the situation out amicably, rather then legally .

The squatter may leave , once she realises that lawyers are involved

Bad idea gives the thing the feeling she has rights. The lawyer is a clown 

[Media1]

10 hours ago, tassieman said:

[OP reply] Many thanks for all helpful comments/advice. The old woman squatter  is both obstinate, mischievous and crafty. We have met with the Head of Village (HoV) who judged for my wife but the squatter is simply ignoring the HoV. A couple of years ago when my wife first learned of the problem she offered the woman BT30K but she rejected this and this year - once we started clearing - the squatter asked for BT300K...but at least the squatter has only grown a few bananas on a small section of the land for three years.

 

The core of the problem as I see it (other than my wife's inexcusable ignoring of what really is a beautiful piece of river frontage property as per attached!!!!) is that the parcel of land the old woman is trying to lay claim to is not on the larger property's chanot but was included in the purchase deeds when my wife first bought the land in the 1990s and was farmed by her for five years after which she leased all the property (that covered by the chanot and that included in the original sale) for approx. 10 years until about 2012.

 

Anyway, sadly, amicable/tradition problem solving mechanisms have been exhausted and the squatter's financial demands are exorbitant. Also, as I said to my wife, even if we paid her the 300K, given the squatter's bloodymindedness and lack of respect for the HoV, what's to ensure her departure and/or another local simply filling her spot as it were with hands outstretched for more $$.

 

The police at least have given us permission to knock the fence down and cut down the banana trees (which we will do) but won't physically evict the squatter without a court order that recognizes my wife as the owner of the land in question which will allow us to go back to the police and request summary, physical eviction. My issue is that my wife's lawyer doesn't want to simply achieve this but to set up a court hearing that will involve the old woman to determine the legitimacy of her claims to the land in question. My argument to my wife is that we will be doing the old woman's work for her! Get the court to acknowledge my wife's ownership of the all the land, and get the squatter evicted by the police (and hopefully charged with damage to property).

 

If the squatter then wants to challenge the court's ruling then let her do it at her expense and inconvenience.

 

 

 

bulldozer and security bye