Providing First Aid (CPR) the legal consequences?

[Thaifish]

Yesterday I came across a motorbike accident. The victim was male probably in his early 40's and fit looking. He was only wearing shorts and no helmet. There were around 15/20 Thais standing around just looking and one person waving a nose inhaler under his nose. By looking at his skin colour alone it was pretty apparent that he was probably not breathing and at the least he was unconscious. In Australia if you provide First Aid assistance to an unconscious person then there is no recourse in a Court of Law against the First Aider. It is considered that if the unconscious person could talk they would  request that you Aid them. 

My last First Aid refresher was done maybe 3 or 4 years ago. I was wondering how would the Thai Legal System/Police System work if Khun Fellang steps in to help Somchai in his moment of need. Also would the family members of Somchai likely request a payment from said First Aider Fellang if Somchai didn't pull through or had some other condition if he was to recover?

[Langsuan Man]

See this:  pretty well lays out what you can and  cannot do as a "Good Samaritan " 

 

https://www.firstaidtrainingbangkok.com/about/good-samaritan-laws.html

[Sheryl]

To my understanding there is actually a provision in the criminal code that requires anyone with first aid training to provide assistance. (Though I have not heard of anyone being prosecuted for failure to do so).

 

I am not sure if the law explicitly protects against being sued but I have not heard of anyone being sued for this. I seem to remember something in the not too recent past where a family tried to file a charge against someone (Thai) for this and the police/courts refused to accept the complaint.

 

Personally I do nto hesitate to render first aid if it is needed and no one as or better qualified yet on the scene.

 

 

[drtreelove]

12 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

 

Personally I do not hesitate to render first aid if it is needed and no one as or better qualified yet on the scene.

 

 

I also have considerable EMS experience and am inclined to help if I determine there are no competent first-aiders or emergency medical services yet on scene. Yes I have read the posts and warnings by others about bad experiences in Thailand from good intentions with first aid, including being arrested and blamed for the accident, and having to pay lots of money to clear oneself. I usually will still step up if I think I can do some good.

But I may stand back for a second and assess the quality of what is being done.  Unless you really think you can do a reasonably good job of assessment and administering of aid, sometimes the best thing you can do is making sure that EMS has been called and directed to the patient and a clear access opened up, crowd control, information and witness gathering, calming family members, getting pertinent medical history about the patient for EMS . 

 

If you have first aid / CPR training then you know that the first thing to do, after you make sure it is safe to approach the victim, and that emergency services has been called, is to assess the status of the victim/patient, level of consciousness, breathing and heartbeat. Don't just jump in and start CPR until you have determined that it is necessary. If you are not sure then it may be best to stay out of it. 

 

BTW, a traumatic full arrest like the OP may have witnessed (heart stopping due to trauma) is a real bad situation and less likely for recovery with CPR than say a a witnessed heart attack, if treatment started right away. 

 

From the link that LM provided, these are excellent guidelines, legal issue or not:  

To be protected by a Good Samaritan law, typically you should;

• Only provide care that is within the scope of your training as an Emergency Responder
• Ask for permission to help - child, parent or guardian
• Act in good faith
• Do not be reckless or negligent
• Act as a prudent would do so
• Do not abandon the patient once you have begun care.
  *The exception to this is if you must do so to protect yourself from imminent danger

[Monkeyrobot]

I thought it was the other way around with the political correctness in Australia, if they are lying there with blood gushing out and you try and stop the bleeding are you saying if they dye , you are held responsible ????

[Katia]

12 minutes ago, Monkeyrobot said:

I thought it was the other way around with the political correctness in Australia, if they are lying there with blood gushing out and you try and stop the bleeding are you saying if they dye , you are held responsible ????

Pretty much.  Grieving families can do and think interesting things, and yes, they may turn on "the last person to touch the patient."

 

Or, say, broken ribs from vigorous CPR.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

10 hours ago, drtreelove said:

Yes I have read the posts and warnings by others about bad experiences in Thailand from good intentions with first aid, including being arrested and blamed for the accident, and having to pay lots of money to clear oneself.

 

I'm pretty sure I recall having read and seen those same kinds of reports here in Thailand in the past.

 

Which makes me wonder how that could be, if the law in Thailand is as represented in the linked website above:

 

Quote

According to the Criminal Code, Section 5, 5th paragraph, if you have training in first aid that enables you to save lives, you are by law required to help, but if you are a normal Samaritan with no training you are not legally required to help. You normally are not responsible of the outcome if you tried to help.

 

Perhaps it's more the law of the jungle that governs here. Same reason that bus drivers tend to flee after a bad crash, fearing they'll be set upon by the survivors or those nearby.

 

[drtreelove]

9 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Perhaps it's more the law of the jungle that governs here. Same reason that bus drivers tend to flee after a bad crash, fearing they'll be set upon by the survivors or those nearby.

 

I think its more like the 'law' or reality of human nature and all the potential reactions to a situation, and the incredible chaos and turmoil of emotions and extreme reactions that can go along with an accident scene or critical health crisis: Anywhere!  

I've not been a military combat medic, which is the ultimate experience of trying to save a life in the midst of chaos, but I have been a medic on the streets of big city America, and it can get crazy there too, with violence against first responders, accusations and lawsuits. 

 

My recommendation would be that a person should think seriously about their training and ability to help in a medical or accident emergency, and also their ability to communicate with potential language barriers and cultural differences in dealing with situations. And also think about your resources if things went downhill; do you have financial means, language and legal help if you need it. If not, think about a plan of action to stand back and provide scene management assistance, designate a bystander to witness and help you gather the victim's scattered belongings, especially wallet and phone. In the case of an unconscious victim, these may be critical in establishing identity and contacting family so that the hospital can provide emergency treatment. 

 

If you come upon a situation where you perceive that you are really needed and that you can take a lead and do better than others at the scene, communicate and not complicate, then I don't see how one could walk away from helping another person if you have the power to do so, regardless of possible complications. That's just my opinion. 

 

It's really difficult to keep your cool and remember details of assessment and treatment in the heat of the moment of an emergency, especially if you have only had occasional First Aid/CPR training, or even once a year or two years renewal.  

 

 

 

[HLover]

 

An alien and an emotionally charged group of Thais in this situation is a recipe for disaster.

[drtreelove]

3 minutes ago, HLover said:

 

An alien and an emotionally charged group of Thais in this situation is a recipe for disaster.

And on the other hand it can be a recipe for the exercise of intelligence and confidence and the willingness to help another human being in spite of it all.

[Swimman]

6 minutes ago, HLover said:

 

An alien and an emotionally charged group of Thais in this situation is a recipe for disaster.

Agreed -- One should take great care to assess the situation before becoming involved. Personally, I choose not to involve myself unless I am accompanied by my wife(a Thia lady) who will explain that her husband has skills which may be of help.

[HLover]

1 hour ago, drtreelove said:

And on the other hand it can be a recipe for the exercise of intelligence and confidence and the willingness to help another human being in spite of it all.

Then reality happens and you are at fault, even if your not.  Many forget where they are and their place in the social hiearchy.

Intelligent, confident and willing are not 3 adjectives heard often to describe the locals.

Your well intentioned plan is commendable though.

[cooked]

Almost any response is better than the Thai response. which is pull out your phone and wander around. 

At the very least you can: make sure that oncoming traffic for example, doesn't endanger things any further.

You can stay very near the guy so he knows he's being looked after and get him some privacy, security and dignity.

Unless you have had training it is difficult to react correctly in an emergency. A colleague at a swimming pool did everything right, except: she forgot to telephone for an ambulance... 

 

Good luck to anyone that does the right thing here, I have seen two cases here where the guy was trying to scam.

 

[drtreelove]

One thing that is disturbing here is the tendancy to move an injured person without taking precautions for spinal injury. Some people don't know any better. If you have some training or experience, you know one wrong move and the spinal cord can be damaged, if it isn't already, which can result in permanent paralysis or even respiratory arrest. 

 

Years ago, my wife and I were waiting to pick up our daughter from high school in Chiang Mai. There were a lot of other parents and vehicles waiting. There were kids pouring out of the school and crossing the busy road in front. Passing cars were slowing down, - but then I saw a pick up full of workers approaching really fast on the opposite side of the road. It came barreling through without due caution, a girl ran out into the lane, the pickup swerved, went up over a curb and hit a low concrete structure. I witnessed as the pickup did a complete end-over-end and about eight men in the open bed of the truck went flying in the air every direction. What a sight!

 

I'm thinking OMG here we go, I told my wife "come with me, stay by my side, speak Thai for me". She's holding me back and saying 'don't go', I told her "I have to, people are hurt, come with me". 

I'm thinking triage multiple victims, administer to the most critical as best possible, designate bystanders to help the less critical and stabilize from possible spinal injuries . 

 

Well I was very wrong. By the time we got across the road and through the chaotic scene, all the victims were gone, thrown in the back of pickups and SUVs and carted off to the hospital. I mean they were all gone, really fast.  I was relieved to be off the hook, but I wondered and worried, what further damage was done by the careless handling of the injured like that.  

 

[Thaifish]

This video clip is Graphic CPR done by Thais. I think I would rather die than have this done. Watch at your own discretion.

 

https://www.ems1.com/international/video/1970237-Graphic-feet-only-CPR-shows-need-for-better-civilian-education/

[drtreelove]

22 minutes ago, Thaifish said:

This video clip is Graphic CPR done by Thais. I think I would rather die than have this done. Watch at your own discretion.

 

https://www.ems1.com/international/video/1970237-Graphic-feet-only-CPR-shows-need-for-better-civilian-education/

If he wasn't dead before ...

BTW, The caption says video from VietNam. 

[cooked]

4 hours ago, drtreelove said:

One thing that is disturbing here is the tendancy to move an injured person without taking precautions for spinal injury. Some people don't know any better. If you have some training or experience, you know one wrong move and the spinal cord can be damaged, if it isn't already, which can result in permanent paralysis or even respiratory arrest. 

 

Years ago, my wife and I were waiting to pick up our daughter from high school in Chiang Mai. There were a lot of other parents and vehicles waiting. There were kids pouring out of the school and crossing the busy road in front. Passing cars were slowing down, - but then I saw a pick up full of workers approaching really fast on the opposite side of the road. It came barreling through without due caution, a girl ran out into the lane, the pickup swerved, went up over a curb and hit a low concrete structure. I witnessed as the pickup did a complete end-over-end and about eight men in the open bed of the truck went flying in the air every direction. What a sight!

 

I'm thinking OMG here we go, I told my wife "come with me, stay by my side, speak Thai for me". She's holding me back and saying 'don't go', I told her "I have to, people are hurt, come with me". 

I'm thinking triage multiple victims, administer to the most critical as best possible, designate bystanders to help the less critical and stabilize from possible spinal injuries . 

 

Well I was very wrong. By the time we got across the road and through the chaotic scene, all the victims were gone, thrown in the back of pickups and SUVs and carted off to the hospital. I mean they were all gone, really fast.  I was relieved to be off the hook, but I wondered and worried, what further damage was done by the careless handling of the injured like that.  

 

Did you see the video last week of a kid that went flying off a motorbike? First the mother took our her phone, then she worried about the bike and then she picked up her kid, that was hardly moving, and shook it.

Maybe better that Thais do nothing.