Questions About Qualifications

[Ijustwannateach]

SK,

Not to disparage TEFL certs., but really they're more useful as an introductory qualification. What most employers want to see is that you'll be able to go into the classroom without embarrassing either yourself or (more importantly) your employer by your performance. There are several ways to demonstrate this, including some kind of TEFLing cert. and/or experience. I think the wiser places will take the experience (in decent places, and as long as it's not changing jobs every 2 months) over the cert., but the cert. is certainly helpful if you don't have the experience. Some places will require one no matter what for reasons of policy or lack of ability to determine who is a good candidate on their own.

I think the program you mention would be fine as an intro. TEFL cert., if not even a bit of overkill. The key thing is some classroom experience- do they make you actually teach any before letting you loose on the world?

"Steven"

[Storekeeper]

IJWT,

Thanks for the response. I think the program does have student teaching as part of the curriculum. I'm interested in several of their degrees to include their PhD in Educational Leadership. As I told you before TEFL will be something for me to do while I stay in Thailand for 2-3 years. I'll most likely land back in Japan somewhere after that and I'm trying to figure out which Assumption program gives me the most flexibility.

SK

[Warby24]

I was wondering if someone could answer this for me. I'm 24 years old, from the UK, have an English Lit degree with 1st Class Hons, an MA in Creative Writing - and would like to spend a year teaching English in Bangkok.

I have NO teaching experience or qualification and can't afford to do a course - so basically, my question is, is it worth flying over and looking for a job?? And if it is, do the schools provide enough support for teachers to do an adequate job?

Thanks!

Edited December 3, 2005 by Warby24

[Ijustwannateach]

Your question is too ambiguous and too wide in scope. Depending on what you mean by "worth it," "enough," and "adequate," and depending on which school you're asking about, my answer would be "yes," "no," or "depends." Take a look through this thread (and the links to suggested threads I posted a couple of pages ago) and do some reading, and see if that helps you to be more specific- or, alternatively, give more information about the ambiguous points and we'll try again.

If your answer is simply "can I get a job?" I would say yes. You'll be stuck at the 30K-40K level for a year or two, though, as pretty much everyone else is, and it might take that long to find a place that will give you a WP.

"Steven"

[Warby24]

Your question is too ambiguous and too wide in scope.  Depending on what you mean by "worth it," "enough," and "adequate," and depending on which school you're asking about, my answer would be "yes," "no," or "depends."  Take a look through this thread (and the links to suggested threads I posted a couple of pages ago) and do some reading, and see if that helps you to be more specific- or, alternatively, give more information about the ambiguous points and we'll try again.

If your answer is simply "can I get a job?" I would say yes.  You'll be stuck at the 30K-40K level for a year or two, though, as pretty much everyone else is, and it might take that long to find a place that will give you a WP.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for your reply. I'm not worried about the pay so much as long as it's enough to live on! I'd like some experience teaching before I apply for my PhD. I'm basically concerned about the level of training the schools provide. A number of people I know who've taught English abroad tell me not to do a TEFL, just to go & look for a job. But I can't understand how anyone can possibly teach with no training whatsoever. So I guess my query is regarding the level of training that schools provide. Is it just a case of sticking to the textbooks and improvising - or will I be thrown in at the deep end and have to do a lot of research/lesson planning? I'll have a read as you suggested.

[Neeranam]

I was wondering if someone could answer this for me. I'm 24 years old, from the UK, have an English Lit degree with 1st Class Hons, an MA in Creative Writing - and would like to spend a year teaching English in Bangkok.

I have NO teaching experience or qualification and can't afford to do a course - so basically, my question is, is it worth flying over and looking for a job?? And if it is, do the schools provide enough support for teachers to do an adequate job?

Thanks!

Bangkok - why?

Do you like pollution and traffic jams?

[Ijustwannateach]

Based on what you've said so far, I'd say the answer to your question is "yes," you can find a job for a year that will be enough to live on- barely. But your money will go much further and you will have more genuinely "Thai" experience if you live a bit out of the city- at least in the suburbs, or out in one of the provinces.

If you're only going to teach for a year, I don't suppose a TEFL will really be rewarding to you in the long run, although as you seem to suspect it will certainly cushion your landing. If you're fast on your feet, creative (you do have an MA in the subject, right?) and willing to do a bit of research on your own, you can probably compensate for not having the TEFL. However, not to have one would eventually limit your employment options, especially in Bangkok.

Since your plan is for the short term, I don't suppose you need to worry about that sort of thing, though.

Good luck!

[PeaceBlondie]

.... But I can't understand how anyone can possibly teach with no training whatsoever.  So I guess my query is regarding the level of training that schools provide.  Is it just a case of sticking to the textbooks and improvising - or will I be thrown in at the deep end and have to do a lot of research/lesson planning?  I'll have a read as you suggested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Warby, some schools provide no training at all, such as the two well established govt. schools where I taught full time in the provinces. There were about two in-house teaching seminars per year, but they weren't very valuable. The textbooks tend to be lousy or inappropriate. Indeed, they sometimes throw you into the deep end without a life jacket. You might luck out, in Bangkok, and get a staff of 102 native teachers with broad experience teaching. I never had one.

And instead of asking "Why Bangkok? Why not the provinces?" - which I would normally say, I'll ask, "Why Thailand? Why not a country that has a truly professional education system?" I would think that anybody heading for a Ph.D. would avoid Thailand like avian flu.

[Upcountry]

Here's a story:

North of BKK, I was introduced to folks at a secondary school, and offered a job, no teacher training at all. Perhaps my only qualifications were a university degree and English related professional experience, and connections via my wife.

I gave it as shot. Most of my fellow foreign teachers where somewhat of the backpacker/adventurist/economic opportunist variety. I was given a try, but after one semester I realized I was not cut out for it.

The cultural and bureaucratic nature of the work environment was challenging, after a background of "spoiled" hi-tech. I did enjoy intereacting with many of the sweet kids, but many of the not-so-sweet ones and realization that the school system was not geared to setting kids up for foreign languages, I became frustrated and tired of the ordeal.

My point is that the nature of English training intention in this environment has not been that serious. As in other places around the world, such as the US, talk is not followed by the necessary investment to "make it happen".

If the Thai powers were serious, the way JFK was after Sputnik, Thailand would be on parallel with India in terms of outsourcing and hi-tech outsourcing, etc. English and Western culture is just not taken that seriously in this "political economy" culture (never mind the highly regarded constitution).

Teaching English in Thailand, for the most part, seems to be an individual adventure, not for the faint and idealistic at heart. It seems to end up being an economic learning experience more than a rewarding teaching epiphany and reason for staying here.

Sorry to sound jaded.

[jjp]

Can anybody tell me what is required to get a work permit in a Lang School?

Mate has a degree (with transcripts) and a Trinity Cert. The school went with his Quals but they refused him the WP cos the degree has Francis( same as passport) written on it and the Cert has Frank written on it. I know he can go to Embassy and get a letter to sort this out but i am just wondering, have they changed the process over the last few months.

I know if you work in an International School you need Degree plus teaching Cert and + whatever but i always thought to work in a Lang School you only needed the degree to get the WP processed.

It seems to me they are just being fussy.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

Cheers

JJP

[Ijustwannateach]

^^ and ^^^

You're both right, naturally. I don't mean to rag Thailand in general, but nobody, and I mean nobody, would come here SOLELY for professional reasons (well, except maybe the NGO workers and various Mafia types). If work were the most important thing, Thailand would be very low on the list- fortunately, there are so many other reasons to be here.

In starting this thread, I certainly wasn't recommending anyone come to Thailand to teach- far from it. I think it would be better to ask yourself: do I really *have* to live in Thailand, and to do that do I *have* to work? If the answers to both these questions are a solid yes, then it might be worth the hassle.

I've said it elsewhere on this forum, and I'll say it again: if I'd known when I started what it would be like, I would still be in another country- but now that I've gone through most of the worst of it (at least I hope I have) I'm happy to stay- here in my cardboard box, of course.

Let's see if I can somehow tie this in to Qualifications so we'll stay on topic: I would argue that the minimum qualifications to have a pretty good chance of a pretty good run at things here would be a Bachelor's, preferably in some academically useful subject, plus either TEFL or some teaching experience. No, that's not the minimum you CAN have to work and survive here (which would be a TEFL), but my experience is beginning to say that's where any decent selection of options for a newbie starts. Of course there are exceptions- that's what makes the rule.

"Steven"

"Steven"

Edited December 9, 2005 by Ijustwannateach

[Ijustwannateach]

Can anybody tell me what is required to get a work permit in a Lang School?

Mate has a degree (with transcripts) and a Trinity Cert. The school went with his Quals but they refused him the WP  cos the degree has Francis( same as passport) written on it and the Cert has Frank written on it. I know he can go to Embassy and get a letter to sort this out but i am just wondering, have they changed the process over the last few months.

I know if you work in an International School you need Degree plus teaching Cert and + whatever but i always thought to work in a Lang School you only needed the degree to get the WP processed.

It seems to me they are just being fussy.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

Cheers

JJP

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ken can probably advise on these WP-related issues more, but I'd say either they're being fussy or there's some other reason they can't give a WP that they're not being honest about. Perhaps they've already used their quota for their company size and capital (there *is* a quota). Perhaps they haven't been paying their "dues" to the immigration police or MOE agent lately. Perhaps they've decided they want to hire your guy but only for a few months until someone else comes back, so they don't want to officially register him. It could be any of these things, or simple incompetence. No way to find out, either.

You don't typically have much choice over these things- take it or leave it. If he's desperate, he'll have to take it. If not, I'd suggest hoofing it to the next place. Good luck.

"Steven"

[jjp]

Ken can probably advise on these WP-related issues more, but I'd say either they're being fussy or there's some other reason they can't give a WP that they're not being honest about. Perhaps they've already used their quota for their company size and capital (there *is* a quota). Perhaps they haven't been paying their "dues" to the immigration police or MOE agent lately. Perhaps they've decided they want to hire your guy but only for a few months until someone else comes back, so they don't want to officially register him. It could be any of these things, or simple incompetence. No way to find out, either.

You don't typically have much choice over these things- take it or leave it. If he's desperate, he'll have to take it. If not, I'd suggest hoofing it to the next place. Good luck.

"Steven"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks wanna teach,

Its not the school who are refusing him, its the MOE or wherever they process the WP. They can get him the WP if he gets a letter from Brit Embassy or gets Trinity to send him a new Cert but its a waste of time and money really me thinks.

If he would have just given his Degree in, they probally would have processed it. He thought giving the Cert as well would make it run smoothly.He has a year contract and the school are one of the best Lang Schools to work for ( another friend works for them) so i think its just the MOE being over fussyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.

( TIT i suppose)

Cheers

JJP

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, now I understand what you mean. Yeah, the MOE can be a bit dense, as well as other government departments. I've heard of at least 3 people now who had to get LATIN TRANSLATIONS of the words "baccalaureum bla bla bal" from their transcript to prove it meant they had a bachelor's degree.

In that case, I guess he's got to get the official letter for them, otherwise give up.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Some schools, especially language schools, often require you to have a TEFL.

Your mate will need to get Trinity to change his name so it's the same as in the passport...we've had this problem before. Same as if the degree is different from the passport name etc.

Contact Trinity and get a new one, it shouldn't be too difficult at all.

[kenkannif]

It's the MoE and probably has to do with his TL not his WP (that's be Labour and once you have a TL you're pretty much good to go with the WP).

[jjp]

Cheers Wannteach, Ken,

I have told him to get in contact with Trinty ASAP and hopefully he should get it sent over after christmas. It takes about 30-45 days to process the WP i believe so i take it if he gets his Cert sorted before his NON B visa expires (feb 20) he should be ok as long as he gets all the documents in before then.

Cheers

guys

JJP

[Warby24]

.... But I can't understand how anyone can possibly teach with no training whatsoever.  So I guess my query is regarding the level of training that schools provide.  Is it just a case of sticking to the textbooks and improvising - or will I be thrown in at the deep end and have to do a lot of research/lesson planning?  I'll have a read as you suggested.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Warby, some schools provide no training at all, such as the two well established govt. schools where I taught full time in the provinces. There were about two in-house teaching seminars per year, but they weren't very valuable. The textbooks tend to be lousy or inappropriate. Indeed, they sometimes throw you into the deep end without a life jacket. You might luck out, in Bangkok, and get a staff of 102 native teachers with broad experience teaching. I never had one.

And instead of asking "Why Bangkok? Why not the provinces?" - which I would normally say, I'll ask, "Why Thailand? Why not a country that has a truly professional education system?" I would think that anybody heading for a Ph.D. would avoid Thailand like avian flu.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been thinking about going in cold and how daunting that would be and looking at the "TEFL International" 4 week course in Ban Phe. It's cheaper to do it over there than here at home. But if anyone knows anything about that course & whether it's a good prepatory course, I'd be interested.

The reason I'm thinking Thailand is because I'm at a loose end, between degrees, want to see some of the world. I have a friend who wants to come too. This is a break for me from academia. My plans for the PhD aren't really anything to do with it. I'm interested in the 18th century novel - not something I'm going to be able to find a job related to right now!! I think having taught in Asia will look VERY nice on a PhD application, especially when looking for Teaching Assistantships.

Otherwise I was thinking about Taiwan, but i decided it was worth going somewhere more beautiful - even if the pay doesn't really compare.

[Ijustwannateach]

Search through the rest of the threads (and there are a number of them) regarding TEFL courses for more info. They've all been done somewhere or another.

I have no idea how TEFL looks on a grad school application- maybe this would make a good topic for you to start, Warby?

"Steven"

[Ijustwannateach]

OP wrote:

I'm an attorney from the US and I am considering getting out of criminal defense. What kind of teaching position would I be qualified for in BKK? I would like to teach English- but willing to consider anything else that would be more profitable. I would appreciate any input, suggestions or criticism!! thanks

As I've emphasized before on this thread (would advise the OP to read it), having greater qualifications is not a road to greater pay in the teaching market here. Is NOT, is NOT. That doctorate, those post grad diplomas, that Nobel prize- all these qualifications do for you is make it more likely that you will any particular job and more likely to keep it. Even the True International schools won't be too interested because your degree is not in education and you have no teaching certificate.

High schools are still 25-50K, unis are 25-30K.

There are certain individuals who work as real professors (doing research, for instance) and make a bit more, but these are often through international exchange programs or the professor in question was headhunted for a specific reason (and is usually a leader in some desired field).

Nothing's impossible, but to start from the ground up here in the teaching field with a doctorate doesn't really get you anything more except respect.

"Steven"

[Oso]

Hi all, this is my first post on this forum and I hope I am in the right thread as essentially I want some info on my prospects and qualifications.

My degree is a Bsc Hons Biology and my intentions are to come to Thailand at the end of June with the aim of completing a course at either ECC Thailand or Text and Talk starting in early July (both at the schools located in Phuket), with the hope that I will be able to take advantage of the main recruitment drive and find work as an English teacher in a Thai school round about October time once I have finished the course.

I have no formal teaching experience but I have done a bit of sports coaching, for both adults and kids, so I don’t harbour as many illusions as to what it will be like as some other people who have never tried to teach at all.

I am 28 and graduated in 1999, unable to find decent work in the field of biology, without doing unpaid volunteer work, I have been drifting in and out of various jobs since then, (they didn’t tell me this would happen at uni).

I have considered teaching in Britain and have went through the motions of applying to do the years teaching course here, however complications arose and I was unable to go through with it at the time, and lets be honest if I wanted to deal with the scumbags that are Britain’s youth, (especially the part of it where I come from), I would have joined the police.

I have been reading Thaivisa.com and ajarn,com on and off for about six months (ever since my last trip to Thailand) and I appreciate that most of the information that I need has been covered in previous threads. I am hugely grateful that these excellent sites exist and were able to answer most of my questions without me even having to ask.

My dilemma is this, having sifted through all this information I now have to make the final decision between doing the CELTA at ECC Thailand and the TEFL at Text and Talk.

I have been advised by other teachers who are currently teaching English abroad and for those who have travelled and are now based back home that the Cambridge CELTA is by far the best, however I am not so convinced. Having read various threads and articles on this topic for example the one by Ken May at http://www.ajarn.com/Contris/kenmayjune2005.htm I am now being swayed strongly towards TnT. I have drawn up a list of pros and cons for each of the courses but I am still a little unsure as to which is going to provide me with the best base as a teacher and the best future prospects.

Obviously the CELTA is the most recognised across the world but would I be rejected for work in other countries as a qualified teacher if I didn’t have it?

Also what is the best way to advance your career? With the CELTA I know it is possible to go on and do the DELTA and try and advance this way but how about the TEFL from TnT? Online degrees?

To sumarise:

My short term goals are to come to Thailand (because I love it there, what other reason is there?), do a English teaching course, get a reasonably good teaching job (possibly also as a science teacher as this is where my background is) and be as good at it as I possibly can.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated (and to keep it in the thread assume that I will have the TEFL in one form or another before I start looking for work).

[PeaceBlondie]

As several of us have said before:

If you're serious about devoting decades of your professional career to teaching EFL overseas (and not just in Thailand, and not to children), take the CELTA and later the DELTA. While you're at it, get a B.Ed. or an M.Ed.

Otherwise, if you're going to do your best but not be too serious, and if you'll only be teaching a couple or months or years starting in Thailand, and probably to kids for about 290,000 baht take home pay per year - get on the next plane, take a non-CELTA course, and earn the right to whinge.

[Oso]

Ok, thanks. Looks like CELTA it is, then the rest to follow.

I am definitely looking at this as a long term career choice, starting in Thailand then who knows?

I have spoken to a couple of teachers today, one a Spanish teacher who is considering doing a CELTA course herself and the other is the head of the college language department and he has been there, done that and got the T-shirt teaching English in various countries around the globe.

Their advice was much the same. They also said that due to the influx of refugees into Britain the demand for TEFL teachers there is stronger than ever , hence the Spanish teachers interest in it.

So although I want to begin my career abroad it is comforting to know that when I eventually return home my new found skills wont be wasted. (I hope)

[kenkannif]

Certs are post grad quals generally. So as long as it complies to the international standard (100 plus hours class time, 6 plus hours OTP) it will be accepted worldwide (it's the degree that gets you the job). I know people using TEFL Int. and T&T certs worldwide (UK, America, Aus included).

[kenkannif]

Also there a chance your Spanish friend will be shunted onto their Intro course first of all mate. So do check with them.

[Oso]

Cheers Ken, I will pass that on to her.

I look forward to joining the distinguished ranks of certified and certifiable teachers in the LOS in the middle of this year.

[kenkannif]

Yeah don't let them push her into the other one.

All the best!

[Ijustwannateach]

Oso, you seem to be trying to head in several different directions at once- not so strange, as I was doing the same thing when I was your age. However, if you don't limit your goals it's hard to define the best path for you.

I'd say that you have excellent prospects as an EP science teacher in Thailand, but it's a hard thing to jump into without a bit of teaching experience. TEFL first might be just the thing.

As both the CELTA and Tnt have their own advantages, limitations, and uses, it's hard to tell you which one would be best. If you knew you were going to stay specifically in Thailand teaching kids, I'd say go for Tnt. If you knew you would be teaching adult immigrants in Bournemouth, I'd say go with CELTA. If you can't predict the future (and who can?) you'll just have to make a best guess like we all do. The reputable TEFL certs. here are, far as I'm aware, all "good enough" to get any of the types of job you mention; and really once you've had your first few jobs that matters a lot more than the cert. itself.

Good luck and let us know how things work out.

"Steven"

[Oso]

Thanks Steven, your advice it duly noted and taken on board.

It looks like I still have some decisions to make, I am still gunning for the CELTA at the moment, but I will probably change my mind several more times and toss a few coins before the crunch time of actually paying a deposit to secure a place on the course. ECC want a deposit a month or more before the start date.

I know I sound a little uncertain about where my future lies in my previous posts, this is because at some stage in my life I may want (need) to actually make some money and I am not daft enough to think that I am ever going to do that in Thailand, not teaching anyway, maybe in Japan (Bournemouth?) but again who knows? I always try and keep my options open but I appreciate what you are saying and I do have to have a more focused approach. For the moment just getting myself to Thailand and doing one of the courses is a goal in itself.

I am glad to hear that my prospects of getting a place a an EP science teacher are “excellent” and I agree that I need some experience in TEFL first, I will use being a science teacher as my goal for a year or two down the line, (holy sh1t, that means hitting the books again, glad I kept all my notes).

Anyway back to the hard part of saving up enough beer tokens to fund the start of this little lifetime expedition and the even harder task of learning English grammar, why weren’t we taught this at school? Verb phrases, past continuous tense…..blo@dy hel_l.

Thanks again to all who have replied.

[Ulysses G.]

CELTA rules!