Fault car accident....bill way too high?

[Lacessit]

14 minutes ago, gaff said:

Thanks to the genius OP, the thread is interesting.

 

Can you tell me what I could do if it happens to me, to screw him as much as possible ?

I am ready to take his house and all his belongings, even if he has to sleep in the street.

 

Could I ask as much money as I want, a lot more than it costs to fix my car ?

This is an expensive car, and I want it back as it was when I bought it.

 

What can do a lawyer to help me screw the guilty self insured idiot ?

 

This is a serious request, if it happens to me, I will have no pity, no mercy.

 

 

An 8 MB car? What are you driving, a Lamborghini?

Good luck with trying to sue an uninsured Thai. There are plenty of them around, and it would cost you more in lawyer's fees than you could possibly recover - assuming you were successful in the Thai legal system.

[jackdd]

24 minutes ago, gaff said:

 

You are clearly dreaming.

 

I will quickly find if what the OP owns, it is very easy thanks to Thailand snitches, then I will tell my lawyer to take everything possible.

If you read this forum you will soon see that many people here don't own anything, because everything is in the name of the GF and if they should have anything in their name, after they are in an accident and not willing to pay it's easy for them to just transfer it to somebody else.

 

23 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

An 8 MB car? What are you driving, a Lamborghini?

Good luck with trying to sue an uninsured Thai. There are plenty of them around, and it would cost you more in lawyer's fees than you could possibly recover - assuming you were successful in the Thai legal system.

Forgot about how expensive luxury cars here are?

For 8 million you get a bigger Benz or a cheap Porsche, a Lambo is 20 or 30 million up

Edited April 30, 2018 by jackdd

[cyril sneer]

2 hours ago, dotpoom said:

Just wondering why anybody would "self insure"....to save 15 or 16,000 Bt.

   Supposing, God forbid, one had an accident that caused a death...too terrible to think about.

Interested to know what the consequences would be for this.

 

Surely this happens on a daily basis to poor and uninsured Thai drivers. I assume a wai and 500 baht wouldn't cut it..

[gaff]

29 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

An 8 MB car? What are you driving, a Lamborghini?

Good luck with trying to sue an uninsured Thai. There are plenty of them around, and it would cost you more in lawyer's fees than you could possibly recover - assuming you were successful in the Thai legal system.

 

Any respectable Benz costs 8mb.

 

And of course I won't sue someone who has nothing, I will just use my insurance company, but in case of a genius as the OP, no pity.

 

 

[transam]

4 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

Interested to know what the consequences would be for this.

 

Surely this happens on a daily basis to poor and uninsured Thai drivers. I assume a wai and 500 baht wouldn't cut it..

I think grannies land comes into the equation....

[cheeryble]

Thanks to all the helpful comments a few have had very worthwhile information (and no thanks for those who obviously didn't read the facts but felt they had to pipe up)

I even thank those critical of me but polite as their point of view is valid too.

 

Fact is there are too many answers coming in to be useful, and I have learned more from wife.

 

For the person or people who called me a cheap charlie.........nearly right. i have several people for whom I'm the last resort.....a niece I want to help through medical school, and have the very early stages of a progressive disease which will have financial ramifications. So not cheap, but moderately thrifty, no need to show off, and perfectly happy to drive a 19yo car which suits me just perfectly and BTW now looks as new for my 13k baht. Also happy to pay all rightful obligations, and capable.

 

To be clear

I never said I did not want to pay what I rightly should.

I'm dealing only with their insurance company.

I questioned the amount given it looks like the rear bumper etc were designed to crumple and having looked carefully it looks like not the slightest structural movement or exhaust damage etc nor even rear side panels. The car was perfectly drivable all but having a rear lamp not straight. The rear wheels were true and no body or parts came near them or the axle. I also was guided by the lady's insurance man who mentioned 70k, and my own bill of one tenth what they're asking. (no I don't expect them to not expect a proper job or pay the price I did.......but hey)

Yes I know light lenses cost a good few thou and actually I have no problem with paying for a rental as long as it's reasonable.

SO I think it's reasonable to come on Thaivisa and ask others' opinions, it's a great resource.

 

This thread is now irrelevant really.

I hadn't realised statutory insurance covers so little and that good insurance was so much cheaper for an older car . I spoke to the missus and she'd beaten me to it.

Turns out I'm fully insured done by her since January.

 

So missus will speak to insurance company, and if happy we're not being ripped off, it will be paid promptly and in full.

If not she will deal with it.

Not much gets past her.

 

Thanks again to those who contributed in a useful way.

 

That's about it.

 

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by cheeryble

[jackdd]

6 minutes ago, cyril sneer said:

Interested to know what the consequences would be for this.

 

Surely this happens on a daily basis to poor and uninsured Thai drivers. I assume a wai and 500 baht wouldn't cut it..

The compulsary insurance pays 300k THB in case of death, so i would say that's about the region we are talking about.

[thailand49]

Sorry but here is my take?  Disregard the person being Thai, if the shoe was on the other foot?

 

When it comes to people who actually take great care of their car when they are involved in a accident for example the vehicle damaged beyond the cost of the actual vehicle it pissed the person off since they actually come out losing.  It is impossible with the money one gets to get a vehicle as good for the money.  I know I had a prestine  1991 Jeep  never been in a accident fully loaded everything worked as if it was the day I purchased it. A guy drunk ran into the back the cost to fix it was more than the actual blue book although the insurance up the price to double that was about it 3000 USD best! I really pissed me off!

 

That being said, aside from her rudeless none of it was her fault, you are making a judgment of someone else property because you were a bit scare of a mosquitoe can you imagine if it was a bee?    you also chose to self insure yourself and that is your choice so now take responsibilty instead of trying to nickel and dime the lady.  From the looks of the vehicle it looks in prestine condition and it is her right since you don't have insurance.  Here in Thailand, a guy was following me too close for a few KM, I try to stay away from the guy after a while I thought I did sitting at a red light all of a sudden a bump, it was the same guy although it wasn't much, he too uninsured, since the car was less that 2 years old my wife said Toyota the guy wasn't happy but he dealt with it get my point!  Sure it was more and dealers usually replace and paint instead of slapping bond and sand which is what you might be suggesting. The dealer she gets all original parts instead of copies and the paint although white will match.  

 

From the looks of your picture she has some custom items like the spoiler/light..  having body and fender experience the hood, lower bumper area is to be replace and painted, the rear light unit replaced, the worse part is the left side area which is large if underneat is bent which might be the case from the picture some looks off?  you can replace all the items I suggest but in the end if the undersize is bent even a bit you will have a large gap in the trunk area.

 

You should get the full detail quote and have you wife go to the Honda dealer and get the details. Then take all the information to you guy and examine the quote and speak to your lady in detail before assuming. 

 

In the end,  take responsibility you put yourself in this spot not the lady you could have gotten policy to cover the other vehicle for as little as 4-5 thousand baht and it would have more than cover this lady vehicle, if you had done that the Thai insurance would have dealt with her instead of you and told her this is who we use etc.  end of story.

 

The rental car now that is on you too if is rare but again you got yourself into the problem.  My saying is this " if you put yourself in a postion for something to happen it will ".  Good luck!

[Sapporillo]

I have no idea what a repair job usually costs here in Thailand, but it was certainly not a minor job. Of course the dealer replaced all the broken parts with new genuine Honda parts (I would have wanted that too), and they have a reputation of not being cheap at all, just like most Japanese cars. A rear light cluster alone can cost several hundred US$, you could try and find the prices of the damaged parts on a site like rockauto.com, but they can be a lot cheaper on this site if they’re not from Honda (but you still get an idea). 

As for the bodywork, apart from the trunk lid, they also had to fix the trunk floor, and the plastic bumper is certainly quite expensive as well. Also, behind the plastic bumper is a hard-foamy material (shock absorbant) which has to be replaced once it was compressed, and behind that is a steel or aluminum construction that holds everything together and fixes it to the car’s frame (or ‘underbody’). It looks like this was bent too, and then there was the paint job on top of it. 

So, while 128k seems a lot for Thailand, I’m not sure if you could have it much cheaper if you wanna do it right. It’s certainly not an obvious case of cheating/fraud in my eyes. 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Sapporillo

[Thaidream]

Since you have accepted fault-  here are the 2 options you  have :

 

1.   If the other party used her first class insurance to repair her own vehicle- they would not need to get your approval for anything.  They would have sent their customer to her shop of  choice and provided a rental car if she had that as part of her policy.  That Insurance company would pay the repair shop; the rental charges and the total bill would be sent to you.  You do have a right to see an itemized bill but it would be useless to attempt to fight it- since you have accepted liability.

 

2.  The other person may not have used her insurance and instead went to her Honda dealer- who had it repaired or used their own repair staff; provided a rental car and then billed their customer. Now the party is billing you.   Whoever did the repair- has a complete estimate of repairs, parts used, year make and model of the vehicle and mileage .  All of this should have been present to you prior to start any repairs so you knew what was being done and  the amounts to be paid.

 

JUst looking at the pics- I would say the  rear deck lid needed to be replaced and possible the rear bumper.  Due to the impact there may be damage underneath that can't be seen until the pieces are off.  In the United States this type of job would cost around $7,000  (220,000 Baht) using an average labor rate per hour of repair of  $50 per hour ( 1,500 Baht).   The rental car cost is added on or a person has a right to get Loss of Use which is the equivalent of a rental car paid in cash.  In the US this is about $30 per day (900 Baht)

 

Since the other party used a Honda affiliated repair which always costs more than a private repair shop as Honda charges extra on top of the repair shop for facilitating the repair and parts- the charges are probably correct. A rental car in Thailand is about 500-1000 Baht per day depending where one rents and size of vehicle. Remember also, a person in an auto accident is to be accorded a rental car but the rental cannot be better than what the person is driving. (For example:  The  not at fault party cannot drive a Honda and rent a BMW and expect payment except at the standard rate for a Honda)

 

As far as parts go-  if your insurance company was handling this they wouldn't necessarily authorized Honda parts. Insurance operates under the guidelines of  LKQ parts - Like -Kind and Quality which means they could use replacement parts.  However, in most countries where there is an insurance commission- if a customer requests factory original parts they can get them- However if a person's car is a 2010 Honda Civic- with 70,000 KM on it- they are not going to get a 2018 part-  they will get a 2010 part from a scraped  Honda with similar mileage  or a new 2010 Honda part.

 

I would go back to the person who sent the bill and ask them if the other party used insurance or not. If insurance- I would contact that company and ask for an itemized bill.

If insurance was not used- I would go back to the other party and ask the same- an itemized bill.  You do have a right to know what you are paying for.

 

It's best to have first class insurance asz your insurance then handles all of these type of issues. Insurance companies often dispute bills with each other; parts used; labor rates and rental charges.  I know this because I worked as an Insurance Claims Adjuster for 15 years in America. 

[HAKAPALITA]

This is getting boring. Can we get back to "My Fords better than all the Toyota's".

[gaff]

1 hour ago, gaff said:

Thanks to the genius OP, the thread is interesting.

 

Can you tell me what I could do if it happens to me, to screw him as much as possible ?

I am ready to take his house and all his belongings, even if he has to sleep in the street.

 

Could I ask as much money as I want, a lot more than it costs to fix my car ?

This is an expensive car, and I want it back as it was when I bought it.

 

What can do a lawyer to help me screw the guilty self insured idiot ?

 

This is a serious request, if it happens to me, I will have no pity, no mercy.

 

 

 

 

It is not relevant to the OP anymore as Mr Genius didn't even know that he was fully insured.

Great communication with Madam Genius :-)

 

 

Anyway, I think that it is still interesting to talk about what to do to screw anyone guilty of not having an insurance.

 

 

 

[Apiwan2]

Yes but read what limit they will pay out for other's property damage for your "poxy 7k" and once you see what that amount can cover I'll bet you'll not want to be parking too closely to a McLaren or a Ferrari lest you exceed the amount of coverage should you nip the corner of their car bumper 

Here's the limitations...

So what does happen here if the damage is greater than what the upper limit is ?

Interested to know

Sent from my SM-G935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[DJ54]

Price of repair can be negotiated. Wife with no DL drove the car while I was out of the country. Two lane country road hit the gas instead of brake. Left rear quarter panel replaced (new) Rear panel replaced left rear window replaced front right fender replaced. Broken transaxle replaced. Paint etc. Estimate was 170,000 negotiated down to 130,000. 

After repair received itemized bill with pictures before, after and during repair. Was done at dealer Suzuki Swift. No DL insurance would not pay. 

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, Apiwan2 said:

Here's the limitations...

So what does happen here if the damage is greater than what the upper limit is ?

Interested to know

Sent from my SM-G935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You are liable for any excess, so get proper insurance.

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, Apiwan2 said:

Here's the limitations...

So what does happen here if the damage is greater than what the upper limit is ?

What do you expect? Of course then you have to pay it by yourself.

That's the reason why many insurances (car, health, what not, are a joke, because the coverage sums are often way too low)

If you crash in a new Lambo at speed with your 5 million coverage there will be quite some overhead to cover out of your own pocket.

[shy coconut]

5 hours ago, 8OA8 said:

Surely your own insurance will sort out the repair of your vehicle regardless of the insurance status of the person that hit you.

They probably have done. 

What they are now doing is getting their money back from the insurer

of the car which caused the damage (in this case, the self insurance OP)

[Thaidream]

A First class insurance policy has two sections- Liability and First Party Coverage (your own car)

 

Liability covers damages to another person's car if you are at fault and possibly injuries if one does not have added coverage for this- in either case- the insurance will never pay over the  liability limit  on your policy- If the damages or other liability exceed what your liability coverage is- you pay the difference out of pocket.

 

Your first party coverage pays for your own  vehicle repairs- up to the limit of the value of your car.  Normally in Thailand the value for insurance purposes is stated on the policy.  If the repairs cost more than the value- you get the value only and the insurance company scraps the vehicle or allows you to buy it back. You never get paid more than the vehicle is worth. If you are at fault and you are injured- you will need to have a first party coverage clause  for medical or have private medical insurance.

 

Lawyers in Thailand normally do not pursue auto cases as the legal system is cumbersome so no one is going to lose their house over an auto accident unless there is loss of life and the party is well connected.

 

In the US/Western countries- lawyers are like maggots seeking out any opportunity to sue and recover.  Insurance companies in the West have  whole sections that handle litigation and it is costly and complicated- That is why insurance in the West is expensive while in Thailand reasonable.

[Apiwan2]

You are liable for any excess, so get proper insurance.

This is proper insurance , from a big company and fully comprehensive.

It's the going rate for my car after checking many.

I didn't buy it from somchai in the next soi.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[khunPer]

To me the damage on the back of that car looks like something that could cost 100,000 baht. If it was my car, I would demand some of the parts replaced, not fixed, as they might rust too easily after such a damage, and the repair should also be done in an authorized workshop.

 

I had a (Thai) lady driving into the door of my about 1-year old new car on a parking area (my girlfriend driving, or rather sitting in a stopped car, waiting in line) – the lady in the other car was too busy checking something else, luckily she drove slow speed, and she was also "self-insured" – I wished it repaired by the authorized dealer, a brand new door the work-shop said, and we also agreed 50/50 on rent for a cheap replacement car while it was fixed. Luckily for that lady it was (much) cheaper than OP's damage, being a new metal-door only (everything else moved from the old door).

 

I think the bill seem fairly fair when using an authorized shop; however, cannot say if it could have been a little lower.

[DJ54]

Forgot to note..... it took 3 months to repair

[thailand49]

53 minutes ago, HAKAPALITA said:

This is getting boring. Can we get back to "My Fords better than all the Toyota's".

Patience?  if it was a Ford and Toyota you would have gotten your wish! 

Edited April 30, 2018 by thailand49

[Thaidream]

The majority of people who have insurance have no idea what their cover is and how it all works- a good agent structures a policy based upon one's income and desires for coverage and risks based upon lifestyle. Thailand doesn't yet have the same issues witas the US and the West as the laws in Thailand are not comparable and lawyers are not frothing at the mouth to pursue cases due to the legal system and issues. Making A person whole is the purpose of insurance not making lawyers wealthy

 

It's a;ways better to have your own insurance work with all the parties involved and keep you out of it- That is why you pay your premium

[Thaidream]

Three months to repair?  Absolutely ridiculous unless they had to send to Japan for a replacement part not available in Thailand and even then no longer than a month. Your insurance company if paying rental should have been all over the repair shop and threatening to move the vehicle out and cut off the rental car. That is why insurance is essential.  Repair shops delay repairs and then charge storage for vehicles; inflate rental costs etc.  Insurance is supposed to control all this.

[jackdd]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

a good agent structures a policy based upon one's income and desires for coverage and risks based upon lifestyle

And a non-third-world country would just have a compulsory insurance that also covers damage to third parties property (and reasonable coverage sums), let's see how long it takes Thailand to do this.

 

[cheeryble]

58 minutes ago, Apiwan2 said:

Here's the limitations...

So what does happen here if the damage is greater than what the upper limit is ?

Interested to know

Sent from my SM-G935F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Funny enough my partner in the US picked me up in from SFO in his Testarossa and clipped his own car when parking in the garage. Not so bad.......$400 near 30 years ago though.

 

Seriously though the amount above looks OK ....100k per person in one's own car......but 2mil medical per person in the other car and does 5 mil for property damage mean their vehicle (or their house etc). If so it's adequate for all but Black Swans.

Edited April 30, 2018 by cheeryble

[mogandave]

While it’s not real clear to me, it seems the Op may have gotten insured after the incident, he claimed to be insured as of Jan, and stated the incident was many months ago.

In any event, it looks like a good bit of damage to me, and the victim has the right to have the vehicle repaired to a state as good as or better than it was, prior to the incident.

The victim is also entitled to full compensation for alternative transportation, inconvenience and lost work.

The cost does not seem excessive to me. When my neighbor backed into me, I got it repaired at Toyota, and got a rental car for almost a month. His insurance paid for everything.

[Airalee]

3 hours ago, janclaes47 said:

I didn't realise that a broken aircon was ever covered by a 1st class insurance, unless it is broken during an accident of course.

Anything that is damaged during an accident is covered.  The “catch” here, which is fully legitimate btw is something called “betterment”.  For example, let’s say you run your car into something and you pop your two front tires.  If the tires were already close to the end of their useful life, the insurance company doesn’t owe for two new tires.  Of course, the adjuster isn’t going to put a couple of used tires on the car, so the estimate will be written with new tires with a nominal deduction for betterment.  Usually, the adjuster will only deduct a small amount just in order to appease the auditors at the company to show that he is doing his job. (If the tires only have 10% tread remaining and are essentially bald, the adjuster will probably only pay for 50% of the cost of new tires which is completely fair).  This can extend to basically any component that has a “useful life”.  This can also be mitigated by using used parts (a radiator for example) but if the part is a “safety part” such as tires or suspension, the adjuster won’t want to open up a potential liability issue for the company.

 

hope that explains it for you.  Cheers ? 

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

Since you have accepted fault-  here are the 2 options you  have :

 

1.   If the other party used her first class insurance to repair her own vehicle- they would not need to get your approval for anything.  They would have sent their customer to her shop of  choice and provided a rental car if she had that as part of her policy.  That Insurance company would pay the repair shop; the rental charges and the total bill would be sent to you.  You do have a right to see an itemized bill but it would be useless to attempt to fight it- since you have accepted liability.

 

2.  The other person may not have used her insurance and instead went to her Honda dealer- who had it repaired or used their own repair staff; provided a rental car and then billed their customer. Now the party is billing you.   Whoever did the repair- has a complete estimate of repairs, parts used, year make and model of the vehicle and mileage .  All of this should have been present to you prior to start any repairs so you knew what was being done and  the amounts to be paid.

 

JUst looking at the pics- I would say the  rear deck lid needed to be replaced and possible the rear bumper.  Due to the impact there may be damage underneath that can't be seen until the pieces are off.  In the United States this type of job would cost around $7,000  (220,000 Baht) using an average labor rate per hour of repair of  $50 per hour ( 1,500 Baht).   The rental car cost is added on or a person has a right to get Loss of Use which is the equivalent of a rental car paid in cash.  In the US this is about $30 per day (900 Baht)

 

Since the other party used a Honda affiliated repair which always costs more than a private repair shop as Honda charges extra on top of the repair shop for facilitating the repair and parts- the charges are probably correct. A rental car in Thailand is about 500-1000 Baht per day depending where one rents and size of vehicle. Remember also, a person in an auto accident is to be accorded a rental car but the rental cannot be better than what the person is driving. (For example:  The  not at fault party cannot drive a Honda and rent a BMW and expect payment except at the standard rate for a Honda)

 

As far as parts go-  if your insurance company was handling this they wouldn't necessarily authorized Honda parts. Insurance operates under the guidelines of  LKQ parts - Like -Kind and Quality which means they could use replacement parts.  However, in most countries where there is an insurance commission- if a customer requests factory original parts they can get them- However if a person's car is a 2010 Honda Civic- with 70,000 KM on it- they are not going to get a 2018 part-  they will get a 2010 part from a scraped  Honda with similar mileage  or a new 2010 Honda part.

 

I would go back to the person who sent the bill and ask them if the other party used insurance or not. If insurance- I would contact that company and ask for an itemized bill.

If insurance was not used- I would go back to the other party and ask the same- an itemized bill.  You do have a right to know what you are paying for.

 

It's best to have first class insurance asz your insurance then handles all of these type of issues. Insurance companies often dispute bills with each other; parts used; labor rates and rental charges.  I know this because I worked as an Insurance Claims Adjuster for 15 years in America. 

I could tell that you were a fellow former claims adjuster before reaching the end of your post.  You pretty much nailed it.  Great post!  I wonder which company you worked for ? 

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

A First class insurance policy has two sections- Liability and First Party Coverage (your own car)

 

Liability covers damages to another person's car if you are at fault and possibly injuries if one does not have added coverage for this- in either case- the insurance will never pay over the  liability limit  on your policy- If the damages or other liability exceed what your liability coverage is- you pay the difference out of pocket.

I’m curious how this would work in Thailand.  

 

Back in the US, when I received a claim that would be in excess of the insured’s limits, I would first have to send a letter to the insured stating that we have received such a claim and that they may want to consult with an attorney regarding potential additional exposure above policy limits.  I would also have to notify the claimant of such limits and let them know that they would either have to (a) accept our limits and then release our insured from liability, (b) sue our insured directly or (c) use their own policy (letting them know that it wouldn’t count against them as it was fault free).   I would offer to pay their deductible and rental car and that their company would ultimately send me a subrogation letter.  The claimant always chose option C.   In most cases, the other company would settle for our insureds policy limits.

 

*This relates to property damage only and not BI (bodily injury)