Israeli forces kill dozens in Gaza as U.S. Embassy opens in Jerusalem

[JimmyTheMook]

11 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 

A pastor regurgitating Zion spin. Israel has stolen land what reaction do you EXPECT?

 

Actually he is a well known CIA black operative in retirement, the upside down US label pin is a call sign.

 

But he's correct about who's got Israel back and that is the gist of his sermon, the message is pretty clear now if you listen and understand.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

The problem for Israel is that it left its colonialist enterprise about 100 years too late. "Might is right " was the mantra for European colonialists 15th to 19th Century and all the atrocious things they did, but you cant behave like that today and get away with it. We now have international law.

 

There was and still is a majority Palestinian population in historic Palestine.  The only way a religious minority, Israeli Jews, can rule an indigenous Palestinian majority (Muslims and Christians) is by means of apartheid and the brutal repression as seen in the OP,  killing protesters who want to return to their homes from which they were ethnically cleansed.

 

In history no minority has ever succeeded in ruling over a majority without ultimately granting them civil and human rights.

 

Trump in sponsoring that minority supremacy in his recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital is on the wrong side of history... at the moment anyway...the OP building straddles the border with East Jerusalem, the future capital of Palestine.

 

Are you suggesting that before the 15th century there was a country called Palestine in which a people called Palestinians lived and were ruled by fellow Palestinians? And that this country and it's people were a distinct country apart from other Arab nations and tribes?

[Jingthing]

4 hours ago, Thailand said:

Israel , the Jewish lobby and the NRA, Trumps few remaining "friends".

I would include Christian evangelicals in your list. You know the ones that think Jews will go to hell. Ironic, huh?

 

"Jewish lobby"? Are you sure? 

 

Quote

 

WASHINGTON POSTNothing says ‘peace’ like 58 dead Palestinians

...

Trump has further driven the partisan wedge over Israel, and it’s splitting not just Democrats from Republicans but American Jews from Netanyahu’s government.

A poll last year by the American Jewish Committee found that American Jews, only 21 percent of whom view Trump favorably, were overwhelmingly (68 percent) opposed to an immediate move of the embassy.

Perhaps American Jews recognize that Trump, and the messianic Christians driving his policy, are leading Israel away from democracy and security. And perhaps they don’t trust claims of “peace” when their own eyes see the opposite.

 

 

 

 

http://www.paywallnews.com/life/Opinion-|-Nothing-says-‘peace’-like-58-dead-Palestinians.HJfCctovCG.html

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

What trump did is the equivalent of throwing a firework into a room full of powder kegs.

 

 

Exactly...

[dexterm]

10 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

And what about the lands that belong to the Jewish tribes? Those Romans have a lot to answer for. Or was it the Templars or maybe wars among tribes in the Middle East before Europeans got there? 

 

It's a phenomenon how people want to got to one point in history to justify their nationalistic claims or blame others.

The Palestinians who want to return home have been ethnically cleansed in living memory. It is a war crime under the Geneva Convention and international law to prevent refugees from returning  and a war crime to use live ammunition and disproportionate force against children, journalists and disabled rather than the cornucopia of non lethal methods that Israel has at its disposal....they've even made an export industry out of it.

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by dexterm

[BobBKK]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Are you suggesting that before the 15th century there was a country called Palestine in which a people called Palestinians lived and were ruled by fellow Palestinians? And that this country and it's people were a distinct country apart from other Arab nations and tribes?

This is not smart Bearboxer and not like you. Anyone can go back 100s of years but it's a very weak, weak argument. Discuss 1900 forwards please?  Modern wars hand back territory ( a la WW2 etc) after winning. Stealing house and land in the modern era is disgraceful and if any OTHER nation did it there would be outcries of 'ethnic cleansing' and the like.

[dexterm]

10 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Are you suggesting that before the 15th century there was a country called Palestine in which a people called Palestinians lived and were ruled by fellow Palestinians? And that this country and it's people were a distinct country apart from other Arab nations and tribes?

You're trying to regurgitate an old chestnut, debunked many times on this forum, to justify the atrocities in the OP.

 

Just try for one moment to imagine what it must be like for a refugee herded and imprisoned into a ghetto.

 

[Stargeezr]

Shame on Hamas, and shame on the people who are protesting and getting them selves

killed.  Isreal, defend your borders and keep up the good fight, you have my support...

Geezer

[Harveyg]

4 hours ago, Thailand said:

Israel , the Jewish lobby and the NRA, Trumps few remaining "friends".

And who pray tell are our friends?  Palestinians perhaps, or Iran?.  You can have them.  Listing Israel and the 'Jewish Lobby'...  hmm    Any other comments you'd like to make?

[dexterm]

37 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

President Trump isn't causing anyone's death. These people want to die.

 

If you want the deaths to stop, tell your arab friends to stop attacking. Israel aint going anywhere. I suggest you listen closely to the kindly compassionate  Pastor John Hagee said at the closing benediction for the opening of the US embassy.  A wonderful, thoughtful, stirring statement. Give it a listen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The irony is of course that Christian Zionists, part of Trump's large elector base, such as Hagee only support the Zionist state of Israel because they believe it will lead to Armageddon, when all Jews will go to Hell unless they convert to Christianity.

[Harveyg]

3 hours ago, nobodysfriend said:

From BBC - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44116340

 

The Palestinian Authority's leader condemned a "massacre". The UN spoke of "outrageous human rights violations".

 

It really is disgusting how Israel shows to the world that they just do not care about what someone else thinks about them .

Israeli snipers kill palestinian protestors ... it looks to me that killing palestinians became some kind of " sport " for Israeli soldiers , just shoot them and laugh ...

 

On one side we have high tech equipment designed to kill , on the other side stones and burning tires ... Israelis say that some palestinians had been armed ... of course they try to justify their acts by always accusing the other side of their own behaviour ...

On one side we have 58 death and 2400 hurt , on the other side ... nothing !

 

Israel had been prepared for these demonstrations in advance and merciless killed them , I call this a massacre ! And I am not the only one ...

The Israelis demonstrated to the world that , once again , they do what they want only  . They do not obey to international laws , they do not respect other peoples rights or land .

 

Always the same excuses : " they want Israel to disappear from the map ... they want to kill us all etc ... the facts are that they accuse the palestininans of their own behaviour , being aggressive , wanting to kill them etc ...

 

Just look at the facts - how many Israelis have died , and how many Palestinians ? ---- Why ? On one side high tech killers , on the other side people who see their land stolen and destroyed and being killed when they demonstrate for justice ...

 

I am not pro palestinian , I really think Israel has a right to exist ... but make some efforts to find a diplomatic solution and give back the occupied territories to their rightful owners .

Respect international law and stop showing to the world how ugly people can become ...

 

Yes , I know the holocaust ... horrible and traumatising , but a long time ago ... remember but do not try to become like the nazis yourself ...

 

Only a peaceful Israel will earn the respect of the world . \\\ make love , not war /// 555

 

I am scared that the WW III will start when Israel thinks that Iran comes closer to the atomic bomb ... they will not hesitate to bomb the Iran just to prevent them from coming close to this ...

 

It's a mad world we are living in ...

 

Yes remember.   Remember and learn - from WW2 and from arab behavior since 1948.   I wonder how you might respond as an Israeli soldier.  Go ahead and turn the other cheek...

[Harveyg]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

It's the religious supremacist Jewish State of Israel Hamas won't recognize because that would automatically make the majority indigenous Palestinian population second class citizens to the minority Jewish population. And I am against such discrimination too.

 

If Zionists can only maintain their dominance by means of the OP bloody repression, which the whole world is watching, then their apartheid state is built on shaky ground, and will ultimately self destruct into a secular democracy.

 

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice" (Martin Luther King, Jr)

"If Zionists"....     yes the name calling....   Zionism made to look like a bad word.  Perhaps some questionable things done, but the basic foundation, a homeland for Jews, I have no problem with.  Do you?

[dexterm]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

Resistance is not the same as aggressive hostile attacks.  The Israeli territory on the other side of the Gaza border is not occupied land. The arabs are attacking Israel.  Gaza residents are for the most part descendants of the  arbs who lived there during Egyptian rule. They didn't flee Israel. The people you  claim lost their lands are primarily residents of Lebanon and Jordan, countries which will not give them citizenship. 

The arabs who are dying at the Israel border have decided that  their future in paradise is of more value than life here on earth. Who are you to deny them their  wish? They are attacking Israel and seek to gain entry to cause death and destruction. Israel has the moral and legal right to repel violent attackers.

 

It's wonderful that you have such empathy for the arabs who left on the  advice of the attacking arab armies who promised that Israel would be wiped out. Where is your advocacy on behalf of the nearly 1 million arabs of the jewish faith forced out of their homes and who had their lands, property and assets confiscated? Where are your tears for jews slaughtered in the riots of baghdad, of Cairo, of Algiers, of Tunis of Tehran, etc?  Your double standard is rich.

 

BTW your hyperbole as to these poor people holding keys for their homes is absolute BS. Rather than point out the fallacy of the claim, I will direct you to basic math. 1948-2018  is a span of 70 years.   male life expectancy for Gaza residents is 72.5 years. (despite the violence, lifestyle related mortality is the leading cause of death particularly  heavy tobacco use, heart disease, obesity). Your claim would require  that these people  would have  taken possession of their real estate  at an average  age of 2.5 years.

 

Adn BTW, did you know that Israeli Arabs have the highest life expectancy among 21 Islamic or Arab countries, even higher than that of wealthy Gulf States, such as Qatar and Bahrain.  And guess what, the life expectancy of arab males in the contested areas of Israel, the lands you call occupied, is 3+ years higher than in Gaza.  Gosh darn, that occupying hardship sure adds years to their lives.

I would suggest that with over 100 Palestinians killed including children, diasabled and clearly marked PRESS, and not a scratch on a single Israeli the hostile activities are patently the responsibility of the murderous IDF. They are the ones pulling the trigger repeatedly and with apparent impunity.

 

Perhaps an independent transparent inquiry into the reasons for such carnage would be helpful. But the US has blocked it in the UN.

 

Perhaps if you provided credible links for your claims that the majority of Gazans were not ethnically cleansed from Israel, your assertion might resemble something other than the usual Zionist mythological pseudo history designed to create the perfect narrative that Israel can never do wrong, and is always forced by the victims to commit their war crimes.

 

70% of the Palestinians in Gaza (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians) either themselves or their parents or grandparents once lived on the other side of the fence in what is now Israel. That's why they are called refugees. People flee or are pushed out in time of war. Never mind if you disagree about Zionist militias committing war crimes by ethnically cleansing back then, it is a war crime today according to international law not to allow refugees to return to their homes.

 

I am fully supportive of compensation/repatriation (if they want it) of any victim of ethnic cleansing: Palestinian or Jewish. Said so on this forum many times.

 

Many Palestinians still hold the keys to their confiscated family homes in Israel. Perhaps there aren't inheritance laws where you come from.

[BobBKK]

8 minutes ago, Harveyg said:

"If Zionists"....     yes the name calling....   Zionism made to look like a bad word.  Perhaps some questionable things done, but the basic foundation, a homeland for Jews, I have no problem with.  Do you?

Yes I, for one, do. But as we are where we are the only practical solution is two-States but it will never happen as the greedy Zionists keep stealing other peoples land and I have a problem with THAT do you?

[dexterm]

25 minutes ago, Harveyg said:

"If Zionists"....     yes the name calling....   Zionism made to look like a bad word.  Perhaps some questionable things done, but the basic foundation, a homeland for Jews, I have no problem with.  Do you?

Jews are people who follow the religion of Judaism.
Zionism is a hateful political ideology that promotes the religionist supremacy of Jews within Palestine. I despise all forms of discrimination.
Not all Zionists are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists. The nutjob Pastor Hagee mentioned above is a Christian Zionist.

 

I believe that the way the state of Israel was established at the expense of dispossessing the indigenous Palestinian population was a mistake.

 

I have no objection to Israel being a haven for genuinely persecuted Jews. Most of world Jewry (and especially younger American Jews) have voted with their feet and do not want to be a part of the apartheid state that Israel has become, because it seems to be the Israelis who are now doing the persecuting against the Palestinians in the OP. History is full of irony.

[pegman]

4 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Jews are people who follow the religion of Judaism.
Zionism is a hateful political ideology that promotes the religionist supremacy of Jews within Palestine. I despise all forms of discrimination.
Not all Zionists are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists. The nutjob Pastor Hagee mentioned above is a Christian Zionist.

 

I believe that the way the state of Israel was established at the expense of dispossessing the indigenous Palestinian population was a mistake.

 

I have no objection to Israel being a haven for genuinely persecuted Jews. Most of world Jewry (and especially younger American Jews) have voted with their feet and do not want to be a part of the apartheid state that Israel has become, because it seems to be the Israelis who are now doing the persecuting against the Palestinians in the OP. History is full of irony.

Great post. 100% agree. 

[CGW]

1 minute ago, pegman said:

Great post. 100% agree. 

Likewise, if people took the time and trouble to understand the situation instead of believing what they read in the "Zionist" controlled press they would be more willing to condemn!

[sukhumvitneon]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

 

A pastor regurgitating Zion spin. Israel has stolen land what reaction do you EXPECT?

Because evangelical Christians believe the rapture/day of judgment/second coming of Jesus will not occur until all of the Jews move back to Israel.

[Morch]

3 hours ago, dexterm said:

Palestinians have the right to resist illegal occupation. Their lands have been stolen by European colonists. They want their land back, and the right to return to the homes for which many of them still hold the keys.

 

Resisting an illegal occupation is not a free pass for violence, or doing whatever comes to one's mind. That you interpret it as such is irrelevant. The lands of the Gaza Strip are not "stolen", nor are there Israeli troops there. And while you may repeat that the Palestinians have a Right of Return, it does not imply or compel Israel to commit national suicide. Such things are handled through agreements and negotiations. The "hold the keys" chestnut is just some nonsense thrown in for vibe.

[billd766]

5 hours ago, jimmyyy said:

outrage and sorrow at the killing of Palestinian civilians

 

The ones who were shooting at Israelis, those civilians, by civilians you mean hamas....

 

So more than 2,800 people were shooting what? at the Isreali military who replied by using excessive force and killing protestors using snipers. I didn't see any casualty reports from the Israeli side on the number of dead and wounded.

 

I do see a pariah country defending stolen land, building illegal settlements and crying to the world how hard done by they are and that their only friends are the USA.

 

Take a good look at a map of the area and at the size of Isreal with a population of around 8.5 million people and then look at the size of the Gaza Strip and a Palestinian population of around 2 million. Yet Isreal wants more and more land and more and more people.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-44116340

 

Look at the video from 1:00 in at listen to Netanyahu speaking.

Edited May 15, 2018 by billd766
edit for bad spelling after I had posted

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You have verifiable evidence of this?

 

Yawn.

 

Some of those killed during the protests (yesterday and before that) were carrying out various actions against IDF troops or attempting to sabotage the fence. There were posts documenting such with pictures, clips and even Hamas statements. Pretending otherwise do not lend your repeated "requests" for "evidence" much credibility.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The protests are a response to politics not religion.

 

The commentary used by Hamas leaders often mixes the political and the religious, especially when referring to matters related to Jerusalem. The same, if to a lesser extent, applies for the PA leadership.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

This is not smart Bearboxer and not like you. Anyone can go back 100s of years but it's a very weak, weak argument. Discuss 1900 forwards please?  Modern wars hand back territory ( a la WW2 etc) after winning. Stealing house and land in the modern era is disgraceful and if any OTHER nation did it there would be outcries of 'ethnic cleansing' and the like.

 

There is no imperative to choose 1900 as a starting point for the discussion.

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, sukhumvitneon said:

Because evangelical Christians believe the rapture/day of judgment/second coming of Jesus will not occur until all of the Jews move back to Israel.

This would mean that the stage 2 of this mission would be deporting all the Jews to Israel. 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

You're trying to regurgitate an old chestnut, debunked many times on this forum, to justify the atrocities in the OP.

 

Just try for one moment to imagine what it must be like for a refugee herded and imprisoned into a ghetto.

 

 

Considering the bulk of your rants is made of regurgitated old chestnuts, debunked many times on this forum, the above is rather disingenuous.

 

It was never "debunked" that there was no Palestinian State. Ever. This has nothing to do with justifying this or that, just a fact some find hard to accept and acknowledge.

 

Just for a moment, try to imagine what it must be like not being led by a daft leadership such as Hamas. The attempt to disassociate between the policies and rule of Hamas, and between the circumstances of the people of Gaza is, again, blatantly disingenuous.

 

 

[billd766]

1 hour ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

Shame on Hamas, and shame on the people who are protesting and getting them selves

killed.  Isreal, defend your borders and keep up the good fight, you have my support...

Geezer

 

There is nothing stopping from going to Israel and fighting on the front line is there? I am sure that the Israelis would welcome you with open arms.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

You're trying to regurgitate an old chestnut, debunked many times on this forum, to justify the atrocities in the OP.

 

Just try for one moment to imagine what it must be like for a refugee herded and imprisoned into a ghetto.

 

 

Not very nice. Just the same as it wasn't for Jews, homosexuals, left wing sympathizers or gypsies and disabled peoples targeted by the Nazis; or the Armenian men, women, young and old targeted by the Ottoman Turks. Only they were targeted for extermination and mass murder. 

 

So go on, please indulge me. At what point in history was their a sovereign country called Palestinians, occupied by a people whose nationality was Palestinian and rules by Palestinians? Was it before the Templars and Europeans? Before or after the Romans? 

 

Your're the expert - please enlighten us?

[Morch]

54 minutes ago, dexterm said:

I would suggest that with over 100 Palestinians killed including children, diasabled and clearly marked PRESS, and not a scratch on a single Israeli the hostile activities are patently the responsibility of the murderous IDF. They are the ones pulling the trigger repeatedly and with apparent impunity.

 

Perhaps an independent transparent inquiry into the reasons for such carnage would be helpful. But the US has blocked it in the UN.

 

Perhaps if you provided credible links for your claims that the majority of Gazans were not ethnically cleansed from Israel, your assertion might resemble something other than the usual Zionist mythological pseudo history designed to create the perfect narrative that Israel can never do wrong, and is always forced by the victims to commit their war crimes.

 

70% of the Palestinians in Gaza (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians) either themselves or their parents or grandparents once lived on the other side of the fence in what is now Israel. That's why they are called refugees. People flee or are pushed out in time of war. Never mind if you disagree about Zionist militias committing war crimes by ethnically cleansing back then, it is a war crime today according to international law not to allow refugees to return to their homes.

 

I am fully supportive of compensation/repatriation (if they want it) of any victim of ethnic cleansing: Palestinian or Jewish. Said so on this forum many times.

 

Many Palestinians still hold the keys to their confiscated family homes in Israel. Perhaps there aren't inheritance laws where you come from.

 

I would suggest that children and disabled people have no business attending violent protests. Their leadership cannot by exempt from any responsibility in this regard, nor are accusations of using casualties as propaganda fodder unwarranted.

 

The "not a single scratch" equation betrays once more an underlying desire for some "eye for an eye" balance. There is no obligation to satisfy such fantasies.

 

The "independent inquiry" cries are not routinely raised whenever similar (and worse) instances of violence occur in other places. Nor is there much comment from the the same posters on UNSC resolutions blocked by other parties in these cases.

 

I, for one, never claimed Israel can do no wrong. That does not imply your standing position, that Israel is always in the wrong, holds much merit.

 

Rights of Return and such will not be decided on by violence as described in the OP. This is usually a matter of compromise and negotiations. The Hamas stance is not one embracing this point of view, nor are Hamas leadership calls during these protests convey such an attitude - quite the opposite.

 

The "hold the keys" trope is just fluff, and I seriously doubt you could even begin to demonstrate it.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

Yes I, for one, do. But as we are where we are the only practical solution is two-States but it will never happen as the greedy Zionists keep stealing other peoples land and I have a problem with THAT do you?

 

You are aware that Hamas is not quite supportive of the two-state solution thing, right? This isn't something one side is all for and the other side opposes.

[ezzra]

Millions of words and even more opinions will not change one bit of what the 2 sides are going through,

and if you think that this is the end of it, than think again, many years from now some people in some forumas will be still saying pretty much what we're saying here but with many more death and destruction to come...

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by ezzra