International Driving Permit

[jackdd]

Recently we had discussions in different topics regarding the International driving permit, so i wanted to know how the legal situation really is and had a look at the law and the treaties. Here is my summary.

This is only what the law and the treaties say. How a police officer handles this on the street may be totally different.

 

This is what the Thai law says, i assume the translation to english is about correct

English: http://driving-in-thailand.com/motor-vehicle-act/#03

Thai: https://www.baanjomyut.com/library/law/02/146.html

Quote

 

Section 42
[...]

If the driver is an alien who doesn’t have an immigrant visa, he may drive a motor vehicle with a driver’s license specified in the Section 42-2. In such a case, he must carry documents specified by the treaty between the Thai government and the government which issued such driver’s license, and show them to competent officers upon request.

Section 42-2
In case there’s a treaty between the Thai government and a foreign government regarding mutual acceptance of driver’s license, an alien who doesn’t have an immigrant visa may drive a motor vehicle with a driver’s license issued by such a foreign government, or an automobile association authorized by such a foreign government.

 

 

A bit confusing here is the "doesn't have an immigrant visa" because the term "immigrant visa" is nearly never used anywhere. In Thai it says "อนุญาตให้อยู่ในราชอาณาจักรเป็นการชั่วคราว" which means temporary permit to stay, so anybody who is here on any visa (exempt / extension) can use the international driving permit. Just foreigners who are permanent residents can't use it, but that's not really surprising.

 

The next point is "In case there’s a treaty between the Thai government and a foreign government regarding mutual acceptance of driver’s license"

What is the treaty?

Generally regarding international driving permits,

there is a treaty from 1949:

https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetailsV.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-1&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg5&clang=_en

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1952/03/19520326 03-36 PM/Ch_XI_B_1_2_3.pdf

and there is a treaty from 1968:

https://treaties.un.org/Pages/ViewDetailsIII.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=XI-B-19&chapter=11&Temp=mtdsg3&clang=_en

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Treaties/1977/05/19770524 00-13 AM/Ch_XI_B_19.pdf

 

Let's start with the one from 1968:

Thailand signed the treaty back then, but the treaty requires that it is ratified by the country, which as far as i know, Thailand never did.

So it seems that this treaty is not valid in Thailand and thus does not have legal grounds here.

 

Now the treaty from 1949:

There is a section that says that it's not valid if somebody stays in the other country for more than a year, but the international driving permit which you can get from it is only valid for one year anyway:

 

And there is another section which specifies the requirements regarding the license:

 

Annex 8 defines things like that you have to be over 18

Annex 9 defines how a driving license looks like, but i think today nobody has a license that looks like this anymore

Annex 10 defines how the international driving permit has to look like

(See the source linked above if you want to know the details)

 

The Thai law says "he must carry documents specified by the treaty"

And the treaty says "A Contracting State may however require ..."

So you could argue now that you are not required to carry an IDP in Thailand (doesn't have to do anything with in which language it is).

 

To be on the safe side we better assume Thailand requires it and because hardly anybody will have a license according to Annex 9 you better carry the IDP according to Annex 10. And of course you have to carry your original driving license plus the international driving permit together for it to be valid.

 

 

As i showed before, only the 1949 treaty is valid for Thailand, the 1968 is not.

This causes problems, for example Germany is only a contracting party of the 1968 treaty, but not of the 1949 treaty. This means if your license is from Germany, there is no way to use it to drive legally in Thailand, you would have to get a Thai driving license.

 

[Kwasaki]

Many topic's on this subject simply put tourist visa can drive with home drive-license with IDP whether needed or not,  non imm visa Thai licence required.

[jackdd]

34 minutes ago, Kwasaki said:

Many topic's on this subject simply put tourist visa can drive with home drive-license with IDP whether needed or not,  non imm visa Thai licence required.

If you are here on a temporary permit to stay (this includes non-imm visas) you can use the IDP, that's what the Thai law says, as quoted above.

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, jackdd said:

If you are here on a temporary permit to stay (this includes non-imm visas) you can use the IDP, that's what the Thai law says, as quoted above.

Don't think you've got it understood correctly I still stand by my post #2 which has been explained and told to me by a Thai person at our local DLT.

 

I wouldn't trust a English translation from Thai anyhow.

 

With TV members long time experience giving advice here of what's best for a foreigner in Thailand is pretty good IMHO.  

 

If you stay for more than 90 days you need a Thai DL so the consensus is if someone comes to Thailand regularly get a Thai driving licence.

 

The other consensus is in coming to Thailand and wanting drive, bring an IDP with home DL whether it's needed or not to save inconvenience. 

 

As for farangies bleating on about Thai Law, on a good day a Thai Judge may be fair on a bad one it's deep pocket time. ?

 

 

 

[Peterw42]

22 hours ago, jackdd said:

A bit confusing here is the "doesn't have an immigrant visa" because the term "immigrant visa" is nearly never used anywhere.

Its not confusing they mean non-immigrant visa, there is no immigrant visa. They are just using a generic term for a long stay visa. If you dont have a long stay visa (over 90 days) you can use home license, if you have a long stay visa you need a Thai license.

There are 127 web sites, insurance companies, direct quotes from DLTs and police, who all say the same thing. Longer than 90 days, you need a Thai license.

One person says otherwise, YOU.

Its the same all over the world, after a couple of months residing in a country, you need a local license. why would Thailand be any different.

[Peterw42]

23 hours ago, jackdd said:

As i showed before, only the 1949 treaty is valid for Thailand, the 1968 is not.

This causes problems, for example Germany is only a contracting party of the 1968 treaty, but not of the 1949 treaty. This means if your license is from Germany, there is no way to use it to drive legally in Thailand, you would have to get a Thai driving license.

 

Lots of countries also have not ratified the 1968 treaty, UK, US, Australia. 

 

Map below also shows that Thailand abides by the 1968 treaty.

 

[jackdd]

7 hours ago, Kwasaki said:

I wouldn't trust a English translation from Thai anyhow.

Neither do i, this is the reason why i quoted the Thai law as well

 

7 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Its not confusing they mean non-immigrant visa, there is no immigrant visa. They are just using a generic term for a long stay visa. If you dont have a long stay visa (over 90 days) you can use home license, if you have a long stay visa you need a Thai license.

There are 127 web sites, insurance companies, direct quotes from DLTs and police, who all say the same thing. Longer than 90 days, you need a Thai license.

One person says otherwise, YOU.

I'm always open to correct my opinion, post an official statement that says over 90 days it's not valid and i'm willing to accept it, but for now you didn't provide any prove for your claims, while i posted a source for everything i said.

 

For you two guys (i quoted it before) here a bit longer (original Thai law, see source above), this is the part that was translated as "doesn't have immigrant visa"

Quote

ในกรณีที่ผู้ขับรถเป็นคนต่างด้าวซึ่งได้รับอนุญาตให้อยู่ในราชอาณาจักรเป็นการชั่วคราวตามกฎหมายว่าด้วยคนเข้าเมือง

Ask your Thai GF or any Thai speaker who speaks some reasonable english what this means

 

Hint: Foreigner who has received a permit to stay in the Kingdom (Thailand) temporary

And a non-immigrant visa is a permit to stay temporary (limited to one year), so is everything else but permanent residency

[jackdd]

I came across something which confirms what i said before, that international driving permits based on the 1968 convention are not valid in Thailand

From the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/aussenpolitik/laender/thailand-node/thailandsicherheit/201558

Quote

Deutsche Führerscheine und in Deutschland ausgestellte internationale Führerscheine werden in Thailand offiziell nicht anerkannt.

Translation: German driving licenses and international driving permits issued in Germany are officially not accepted in Thailand.

[transam]

31 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I came across something which confirms what i said before, that international driving permits based on the 1968 convention are not valid in Thailand

From the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/aussenpolitik/laender/thailand-node/thailandsicherheit/201558

Translation: German driving licenses and international driving permits issued in Germany are officially not accepted in Thailand.

The UK Royal Automobile Club (RAC) "recommends" having an IDP in LOS...They also quote countries where you don't need an IDP...

Think they have their reasons for the advice which the smart will take notice of.....

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, transam said:

The UK Royal Automobile Club (RAC) "recommends" having an IDP in LOS...They also quote countries where you don't need an IDP...

Think they have their reasons for the advice which the smart will take notice of.....

In the UK you get an IDP according to the 1949 convention which both UK and Thailand signed and ratified, so that's valid, as explained in my opening post.

[tifino]

47 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I came across something which confirms what i said before, that international driving permits based on the 1968 convention are not valid in Thailand

From the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/aussenpolitik/laender/thailand-node/thailandsicherheit/201558

Translation: German driving licenses and international driving permits issued in Germany are officially not accepted in Thailand.

Is this, from 1949, being so soon after the war, and los distanced itself from old recent allies?  

[stevenl]

26 minutes ago, transam said:

The UK Royal Automobile Club (RAC) "recommends" having an IDP in LOS...They also quote countries where you don't need an IDP...

Think they have their reasons for the advice which the smart will take notice of.....

Your translation is wrong. The correct translation is '... international driving licenses', which are of no legal value. How would you translate 'permit' into German? Maybe 'erlaubnis' or 'genehmigung'?

[transam]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Your translation is wrong. The correct translation is '... international driving licenses', which are of no legal value. How would you translate 'permit' into German?

I didn't translate anifink....

[jackdd]

10 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Your translation is wrong. The correct translation is '... international driving licenses', which are of no legal value. How would you translate 'permit' into German?

Permit would translate to "Erlaubnis" or "Berechtigung", but in German the international driving permit is called "internationaler Führerschein" (it says so on my IDP) which if you translate it word by word translates to international driving license but does of course mean the international driving permit

[stevenl]

Just now, jackdd said:

Permit would translate to "Erlaubnis", but in German the international driving permit is called "internationaler Führerschein" (it says so on my IDP) which if you translate it word by word translates to international driving license but does of course mean the international driving permit

So I think there may be some misunderstandings here.

 

Just edited my post BTW, came to the same translation as you did.

[jackdd]

Here an example of a German international driving permit. As you can see on the front it says "Internationaler Führerschein" because that's just how it is called in German, probably somebody made a miskate when translating it many years ago. But that's what the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs is referring to and this is the regular 1968 IDP, which is officially not accepted in Thailand.

[jackdd]

I just found this site which gives a nice overview over which country issues which international driving permit: https://maricar.com/en/drivers-license/

Japan is similar to Thailand, because it also only accepts the 1949 IDP and not the 1968 IDP.

This website also says that in some cases a translation to Japanese is accepted, this does of course not apply to Thailand ?

 

What i saw after clicking on a few countries, this is a very incomplete list:

Austria, Greece, Norway, Finnland -> You can get both IDPs, but you would have to make sure to get the 1949 IDP for Thailand, if they give you the 1968 IDP this would not be accepted in Thailand

Belgium -> Signed and ratified both IDP conventions, but the authorities only issue a 1968 IDP, so effectively you can't drive in Thailand

Germany, Mexico, Ukraine -> Only 1968 IDP, not accepted in Thailand, can't drive in Thailand

Russia -> Issues a 1949 IDP, but it doesn't match the convention, so not valid and can't drive in Thailand

 

If the cops in Pattaya knew about the russian IDP... would be big money.

[stevenl]

25 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Here an example of a German international driving permit. As you can see on the front it says "Internationaler Führerschein" because that's just how it is called in German, probably somebody made a miskate when translating it many years ago. But that's what the German Ministry of Foreign Affairs is referring to and this is the regular 1968 IDP, which is officially not accepted in Thailand.

This IDP accepted in Thailand, although it was not ratified by Thailand.

 

The ministry gets its information from the ADAC, and the ADAC from the ministry. Lots of misinformation on this, also on official sites.

[stevenl]

3 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I just found this site which gives a nice overview over which country issues which international driving permit: https://maricar.com/en/drivers-license/

Japan is similar to Thailand, because it also only accepts the 1949 IDP and not the 1968 IDP.

This website also says that in some cases a translation to Japanese is accepted, this does of course not apply to Thailand ?

 

What i saw after clicking on a few countries, this is a very incomplete list:

Austria, Greece, Norway, Finnland -> You can get both IDPs, but you would have to make sure to get the 1949 IDP for Thailand, if they give you the 1968 IDP this would not be accepted in Thailand

Belgium -> Signed and ratified both IDP conventions, but the authorities only issue a 1968 IDP, so effectively you can't drive in Thailand

Germany, Mexico, Ukraine -> Only 1968 IDP, not accepted in Thailand, can't drive in Thailand

Russia -> Issues a 1949 IDP, but it doesn't match the convention, so not valid and can't drive in Thailand

 

If the cops in Pattaya knew about the russian IDP... would be big money.

Please stop spreading this misinformation.

 

Belgiums can legally drive here on their home license, as can Germans and many others. IDP recommended to avoid issues with police.

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, stevenl said:

This IDP accepted in Thailand, although it was not ratified by Thailand.

You are not the first person who says this in this thread. Can YOU provide any source (Thai law, ministerial order or similar) which says that a 1968 is valid in Thailand even though Thailand never ratified the 1968 convention? You are probably spreading misinformation

[stevenl]

7 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You are not the first person who says this in this thread. Can YOU provide any source (Thai law, ministerial order or similar) which says that a 1968 is valid in Thailand even though Thailand never ratified the 1968 convention? You are probably spreading misinformation

Do a search, done that many times already, and getting tired of people who are now trying to invent the wheel, when all they come up with is some square contraption.

[Peterw42]

19 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You are not the first person who says this in this thread. Can YOU provide any source (Thai law, ministerial order or similar) which says that a 1968 is valid in Thailand even though Thailand never ratified the 1968 convention? You are probably spreading misinformation

You yourself got a Thai license using a German license/IDP, what more proof do you want !!!!!!

If a German license/IDP is not accepted in Thailand, You would not have got a Thai License.

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if you had an accident in the future and the insurance company denied your claim based on an in valid license, based on your interpretation of the 1968 treaty.

 

Are you on forums in UK, US, Australia etc advising Germans that their licenses and IDP are invalid, none of those counties have signed the 1968 treaty either.

[jackdd]

5 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Do a search, done that many times already, and getting tired of people who are now trying to invent the wheel, when all they come up with is some square contraption.

I can't search for something that doesn't exist, so if you think it exists provide a source

 

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

You yourself got a Thai license using a German license/IDP, what more proof do you want !!!!!!

If a German license/IDP is not accepted in Thailand, You would not have got a Thai License.

Once I saw people passing a police checkpoint on a motorbike without helmets and the police didn't stop them. So if i apply your logic we don't have to wear a helmet when driving a motorbike, because the police there didn't stop/fine them.

 

I hope in this topic we keep to: If you say something is in a specific way, then provide an official source which confirms your opinion, preferably a Thai law, ministerial order or similar from the Thai government.

[stevenl]

Do you have any examples of insurance companies refusing pay-out because the responsible party only had an 1968 IDP? Of course valid and person not living here.

Or I'll give you more, do you have examples of people getting fined by the police (you know, those people that people on here keep saying will do anything to make money) for having a 1968 IDP? Of course valid and person not living here.

[jackdd]

17 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Are you on forums in UK, US, Australia etc advising Germans that their licenses and IDP are invalid, none of those counties have signed the 1968 treaty either.

In the UK and most states of the US and Australia you don't need an IDP, the domestice license alone is enough, because other than Thailand they have laws which say this, but i don't stay there so i don't care about this

 

7 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Do you have any examples of insurance companies refusing pay-out because the responsible party only had an 1968 IDP?

We didn't get much details, but the judge said his IDP is not valid, and the person is from Belgium, so according to the other website i posted before he can only get a 1968 IDP, which is most likely the reason.

[stevenl]

9 minutes ago, jackdd said:

In the UK and most states of the US and Australia you don't need an IDP, the domestice license alone is enough, because other than Thailand they have laws which say this, but i don't stay there so i don't care about this

 

We didn't get much details, but the judge said his IDP is not valid, and the person is from Belgium, so according to the other website i posted before he can only get a 1968 IDP, which is most likely the reason.

The judge said is IDL is not valid, not IDP. On top of that he was living here.

 

Your conclusion 'which is most likely the reason.' is your conclusion only and most likely incorrect.

 

So no, that is not ' Do you have any examples of insurance companies refusing pay-out because the responsible party only had an 1968 IDP? Of course valid and person not living here. '.

[jackdd]

22 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The judge said is IDL is not valid, not IDP. On top of that he was living here.

 

Your conclusion 'which is most likely the reason.' is your conclusion only and most likely incorrect.

 

So no, that is not ' Do you have any examples of insurance companies refusing pay-out because the responsible party only had an 1968 IDP? Of course valid and person not living here. '.

I'm quite sure the judge talked Thai and said neither IDL nor IDP

But something like an IDL doesn't even exist so when people say IDL they usually mean IDP

It's ok if you don't like it, i don't like examples anyway, see my example with the helmets from before. I prefer to stick to what is written in the law.

 

In the first post of this thread i provided quotes of Thai law and the 1968 convention according to which 1968 IDPs are not valid in Thailand, so that's currently the fact.

Of course i might be wrong, i never said that that's the whole truth, maybe some ministerial order exists somewhere that makes them valid, but nobody could provide it yet, so most likely it doesn't exist. If you know where to find this, post the source

[stevenl]

17 minutes ago, jackdd said:

I'm quite sure the judge talked Thai and said neither IDL nor IDP

But something like an IDL doesn't even exist so when people say IDL they usually mean IDP

It's ok if you don't like it, i don't like examples anyway, see my example with the helmets from before. I prefer to stick to what is written in the law.

 

In the first post of this thread i provided quotes of Thai law and the 1968 convention according to which 1968 IDPs are not valid in Thailand, so that's currently the fact.

Of course i might be wrong, i never said that that's the whole truth, maybe some ministerial order exists somewhere that makes them valid, but nobody could provide it yet, so most likely it doesn't exist. If you know where to find this, post the source

Exactly, if coming with an invalid IDL, for sale everywhere, the judge will say 'not valid'. And no, for sale everywhere so many people have them, far from 'they usually mean IDP'.

 

Your helmet example is not relevant, still waiting for examples from police or insurance companies or judges rejecting 1968 IDP.

 

Since you don't have them, stop scaremongering.

[jackdd]

42 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Exactly, if coming with an invalid IDL, for sale everywhere, the judge will say 'not valid'. And no, for sale everywhere so many people have them, far from 'they usually mean IDP'.

And you think somebody who bought his license at Kao San road would take his insurance to court over it? (Not impossible... but highly unlikely)

 

42 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Since you don't have them, stop scaremongering. 

 

I provided nearly only facts, i'm sorry if facts scare you.

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, jackdd said:

And you think somebody who bought his license at Kao San road would take his insurance to court over it? (Not impossible... but highly unlikely)

 

I provided nearly only facts, i'm sorry if facts scare you.

Sad that despite your research you still don't know what you're talking about. Do a search for International Driving Licenses, and be astounded by the offers.