Trump cancels summit with North Korea's Kim, warns that military ready

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

Some interesting points, however, Trump failed to get his ducks in order, diplomatically speaking.   He's been making his threats to China (mostly Trade) and without them being on the same page, it was going to fall apart quickly.   

 

What we have now is a Kim who is seen, to some degree, as a victim and sanctions are going to be hard, if not impossible to enforce.   We already know that Russia was breaking the sanctions along with China.   I am sure Iran will be more than happy to resume a friendly relationship.   We are exactly back to the axis of evil days.   

 

Trump was played.   

 

If what you are saying is true then it looks like we never left.

[mrmicbkktxl]

2 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Uh huh. You really think they're going to do that? Remember it was South Korea that was making the pitch to the US that North Korea was willing to give up all its nukes, which apparently, they are not. What's SK's upside in your scenario?

The Russians and Chinese will kick out the USA  from Asia.The USA never wanted peace between SK and NK.If they have peace then there is no need for US soldiers in SK or Japan.Trump is a total loser.If trump stays any longer in office the USA  will be kicked out allover Asia and soon the EU will also turn their back and open to the east.If the USA are isolated from the rest of the world,then what?Since trump USA is more like an enemy than a partner and friend to the Europeans.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The alternative is to leave a loser maniac with nukes all by himself to stew....

 

 

I'd slightly revise your prior comment to:

 

The alternative is to leave two loser maniacs with nukes all by themselves to stew....

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As much as I despise Trump, in truth, he's only failing pretty much where every U.S. administration has failed with NK before. No one's been able to resolve the issue. Can't get them to give up their nukes. Not willing to start a war over it either, at least, not thus far.

 

I wonder if the world will ever really find out what went on here:

 

--Was Kim playing the U.S. and others all along with the summit talk, similar to NK's past conduct?

 

--Did Bolton's Libya talk sour the deal with Kim being reminded of what happened in Libya and getting cold feet?

 

--Did Trump's trade war with China prompt China to lean on NK to back out of talks?

 

So many questions. So few clear answers.

 

 

[lannarebirth]

7 minutes ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

The Russians and Chinese will kick out the USA  from Asia.The USA never wanted peace between SK and NK.If they have peace then there is no need for US soldiers in SK or Japan.Trump is a total loser.If trump stays any longer in office the USA  will be kicked out allover Asia and soon the EU will also turn their back and open to the east.If the USA are isolated from the rest of the world,then what?Since trump USA is more like an enemy than a partner and friend to the Europeans.

 

Man, that is my dream scenario.

[Credo]

17 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

If what you are saying is true then it looks like we never left.

First don't modify someone's quote, it's against the forum rules.

 

We did move away from the Axis of Evil when the Iran deal was in place.   Now with that gone, we are back to square 1 with them and NK.   

 

 

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, Credo said:

First don't modify someone's quote, it's against the forum rules.

 

We did move away from the Axis of Evil when the Iran deal was in place.   Now with that gone, we are back to square 1 with them and NK.   

 

 

 

I didn't change your quote. It appears as you wrote it. I simply boldened the part I was responding to. I could have deleted all of your quote and only left the part I was responding to but that would have changed your quote and given what I was replying to no context.

[attrayant]

7 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I didn't change your quote. It appears as you wrote it. I simply boldened the part I was responding to. I could have deleted all of your quote and only left the part I was responding to but that would have changed your quote and given what I was replying to no context.

(emphasis added)

 

The commonly accepted nettiquette is to make a comment just below the quoted text that shows what formatting changes you made, as I have done here. 

[lannarebirth]

6 minutes ago, attrayant said:

(emphasis added)

 

The commonly accepted nettiquette is to make a comment just below the quoted text that shows what formatting changes you made, as I have done here. 

 

Gotcha, thanks.

[lannarebirth]

28 minutes ago, Credo said:

First don't modify someone's quote, it's against the forum rules.

 

We did move away from the Axis of Evil when the Iran deal was in place.   Now with that gone, we are back to square 1 with them and NK.   

 

 

 

Despite the agreements in place which were only used to legitimise large multinational corporations doing big business with Iran, we never left square one. Both countries are projecting malice to their neighboring countries at a greater level than before agreements were signed.

[connda]

There are no profits in Peace.  Only Endless War is profitable.

"Release the Dogs of War!!!"   $$$Cha-Ching$$$ 

 

"Smell that? You smell that? Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' d**k body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like… Victory." 
- Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore, played by Robert Duvall, in the 1979 film Apocalypse Now.

Edited May 25, 2018 by connda

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, attrayant said:

(emphasis added)

 

The commonly accepted nettiquette is to make a comment just below the quoted text that shows what formatting changes you made, as I have done here. 

The rule here is never change the formatting in quoted text. You can just include SNIPPETS if that's all you're replying to as long as the edit doesn't blatantly distort the original meaning when seen in context. 

So to be clear, your characterization as "accepted" does not apply here.

[4MyEgo]

I dare say might be a good time to be buying some shares in GOLD ?

 

[mfd101]

4 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

What do you imagine is the "middle ground" solution between crippling sanctions and Kim giving up his nukes?

Mentioning Libya was hardly something that anyone would do who (1) had a brain and (2) actually wanted to meet for discussion, compromise & deal.

 

Meanwhile, Iran is watching. Reminding them of Khadafi's fate is scarcely helpful in current circumstances.

[mfd101]

4 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Negotiations are a two way street.

 

NK might offer not to do any more nuclear weapon testing, I doubt they’ll give up their weapons.

 

Meanwhile you assume the US controls NK’s access to international acceptance and prosperity.

 

The world has changed and NK is not in the US’s back yard.

 

China!

Yes, I suspect we are witnessing the beginnings of the breakup of the US alliance system in the north Pacific: SK neutralized and Japan left scratching its head & looking to warm up relations with China ... Australia watching anxiously.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Re some comments made above:

 

--Trump and his various actions have undoubtedly strained and hurt the U.S.'s international standing and its relations with various allies. Trump's public and borderline racist rants against Mexico, pulling out of the Climate accord, planning to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal, cozying up with Putin, etc etc.

 

--However, I don't see any indication that this latest turn with the called off North Korea summit in some way harms the U.S.'s relationships with either South Korea or Japan. They both know what it's like trying to deal with, and make any deal, with North Korea. And they haven't been any better at it than the U.S. has. And I see no sign that Japan & S.K., Trump notwithstanding, would prefer to be in China's camp, none whatsoever.

 

[Jingthing]

"trump" basically wanted a big political win, a Nobel Prize, more ego glory to feed his bizarre narcissistic mentality. But he wasn't willing or able to put in the work to actually do what was possible in such a meeting, which was potentially something. Too boring. Too slow. Not "trump" enough. So weirdly it's probably for the best that he bailed. The result would not have been good. Either a blowup in Singapore instead of the abortion that happened, or "trump" caving to the much better prepared "Kim" for a B.S. deal that would have been a huge win for Kim but something "trump" could dishonestly brag about in the very short term. 

Kim's noises now that he still wants to talk are just a game. He is reinforcing his message that he is the sane one, and "trump" is the mad warmonger. Like I said before, this all may lead to actual war but it may also lead to everyone eases sanctions on NK and the previous status quo getting more so, and a final acceptance that NK is a nuclear power like it or not. Don't like it of course, but how to stop it now? 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Jingthing

[mfd101]

2 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Re some comments made above:

 

--Trump and his various actions have undoubtedly strained and hurt the U.S.'s international standing and its relations with various allies. Trump's public and borderline racist rants against Mexico, pulling out of the Climate accord, planning to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal, cozying up with Putin, etc etc.

 

--However, I don't see any indication that this latest turn with the called off North Korea summit in some way harms the U.S.'s relationships with either South Korea or Japan. They both know what it's like trying to deal with, and make any deal, with North Korea. And they haven't been any better at it than the U.S. has. And I see no sign that Japan & S.K., Trump notwithstanding, would prefer to be in China's camp, none whatsoever.

  

I guess that if you live in Seoul, relying on Usofa seems like a less and less useful insurance policy. And not just since the DTs arrived on the scene.

 

Being in China's camp is not, from SK's point of view, and no doubt Japan's, the same thing as no longer entirely in Usofa's. SK & Japan are learning/relearning to stand on their own feet. And liddle ol' Oz is inching along unsteadily in the same direction.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

I guess that if you live in Seoul, relying on Usofa seems like a less and less useful insurance policy. And not just since the DTs arrived on the scene.

 

Being in China's camp is not, from SK's point of view, and no doubt Japan's, the same thing as no longer entirely in Usofa's. SK & Japan are learning/relearning to stand on their own feet. And liddle ol' Oz is inching along unsteadily in the same direction.

 

When either the Japanese or SK governments start telling the U.S. that they want the U.S. to reduce it's military presence / commitments to those two respective countries, then I'll start to put some credence in your idea. But I don't see that happening any time soon, nor does the current demise of the Koreas summit make that more likely to happen in either case.

 

 

[Srikcir]

15 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

However, I don't see any indication that this latest turn with the called off North Korea summit in some way harms the U.S.'s relationships with either South Korea or Japan.

We haven't heard from Japan but have from South Korea:

"South Korean President Moon Jae-in, who worked hard to help set up the summit and urged Trump at a White House meeting on Tuesday not to let a rare opportunity slip away, said he was "perplexed" by the cancellation."

Apparently Trump didn't see it relevant to forewarn Moon just two days after meeting that he was cancelling the meeting. "Perplexed" is pure diplomacy as an understatement but actually covers a lot of political ground. "Double crossed" comes to mind, no matter Trump's reason.

Equally perplexing is the diplomatic "silence" from Japan.

Trump acted without regard to positions of South Korea and Japan. That does "harm in some way" the US's relationship with the two countries. Some mea culpa from Trump to those two nations might ease his turnaround but Trump doesn't do apologies. At best he'll send Pompeo to smooth talk these allies to assure them that Trump does have a grand strategy, albeit one Pompeo knows not.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

No one has ever suggested Trump was keen on diplomatic niceties. Needless to say.

 

But the SK's and the Japanese both knew and saw that NK seemed to have changed its posture in recent days and was no longer engaging. It's not like the failure to have a summit suddenly came out of left field.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Baerboxer]

7 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Kim wins. Now nations are going to ease on the sanctions blaming "trump" for the failure in diplomacy. Art of the schlemiel.

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

 

No he doesn't. He's lost face and his master in China won't be happy.

 

Trump has now made Kim say he's ready to meet "any time, any where' rather than been seen to be the one deciding if, when and where and calling the shots.

 

Trump certainly has his faults, and isn't exactly Mr. Charisma, but he's playing these games well albeit in a very different way to the double speak of the career politicians.

 

 

[Baerboxer]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

No one has ever suggested Trump was keen on diplomatic niceties. Needless to say.

 

But the SK's and the Japanese both knew and saw that NK seemed to have changed its posture in recent days and was no longer engaging. It's not like the failure to have a summit suddenly came out of left field.

 

 

 

True. But because of Trumps reaction Kim is now saying he'll meet anytime anywhere. The Donald isn't a career politician with all their double talk and economies of the truth. But he seems to know how to play Kim.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

True. But because of Trumps reaction Kim is now saying he'll meet anytime anywhere. The Donald isn't a career politician with all their double talk and economies of the truth. But he seems to know how to play Kim.

 

This whole saga kind of reminds me of the old "good cop, bad cop" routine.

 

The Obama Admin, and others prior, had tried the good cop approach with NK -- offers of economic aid, etc etc -- and it didn't produce much.

 

Then Trump comes along and -- either being legitimately crazy or just employing a bad cop negotiating stance -- comes across like he's willing to nuke NK on a whim. Name calling, mine is bigger than yours, etc etc. And while it looked for a while like that might produce some results, at least now, it's looking like it won't... Outcome TBD.

 

Does Trump know how to play Kim, or is Trump getting played by Kim. I'm not sure which...

 

[Enoon]

 

 

NK is no more interested in talking about disarmament than it ever was.

 

What China is interested in is maneuvering the US (under Trump) into the position of being the problem.

 

US (Trump) the intransigent, US (Trump) the petulant, US (Trump) the untrustworthy, US (Trump) the insincere, US (Trump) the reneger.

 

US (Trump) the least likely to have the regions best interests at heart.

 

The best interests of the region are, of course, what China has as it's first priority.

 

Trump, for China, is a gift from the Gods.

 

 

 

 

[attrayant]

1 hour ago, Baerboxer said:

Trump certainly has his faults, and isn't exactly Mr. Charisma, but he's playing these games well albeit in a very different way to the double speak of the career politicians.

 

 

And getting the same results.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Everyone knows China is in control of North Korea's actions. That's not the issue. The issue is what happens next.

 

I don't think China is in control of North Korea's actions. At least not to the degree some imply. Relations between Kim's regime and the PRC were not always great or even cordial. That the PRC wields serious leverage with NK is a given - that NK's is a puppet regime, questionable. IMO, the PRC is aware of how far it can push Kim around, and it not being  limitless.

[Morch]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

You should visit SK, there is significant and growing popular pressure to get the US off the peninsula, added to which China is fast becoming the trusted international partner of choice.

 

It is not at all unlikely that this whole episode has been managed by China and NK to expose US weakness.

 

Even if no such Chinese/NK plot exists, US diplomatic weakness has been exposed.

 

Have you visited SK? Seen and polled such "significant" (whatever that stands for) sentiment against US military presence? To be clear, I do not doubt such a sentiment exists, just the accuracy of the offered portrayal.

 

As for China "fast becoming the trusted international partner of choice" - more like political wishful thinking. IMO, most countries and governments differentiate between Trump and the US, and most expect things to get back on track in the not so far future. Also, I doubt that this is a zero sum game. Trump causing the US to lose credibility does not directly imply that the PRC's credibility rises. Would have been easier, globally, if things were that simple and straightforward. The US's lose of credibility under Trump results with a more chaotic and precarious state of things, rather than a clear emergence of alternatives.

 

[Morch]

5 hours ago, attrayant said:

 

That goes without saying.  The meeting was just days away, so of course specifics wouldn't be expected.  That's not what  "without precondition" means.

 

Canceling a summit before the ironing-out of any details have even been attempted is just insane.  I don't care what either side is or isn't saying.  Have the summit and work those details out.  That's why we have summits.  If, after the summit, things still can't be worked out, then at least Trump would have had something to stand on when it all falls apart.  At least he could have said he tried.

 

Now, if the two Koreas continue to make progress - even limited progress that doesn't include full denuclearization - that will have happened in Trump's absence and mark him as the fool that he is.

 

I think that often, much of the issues (or at least framework) are agreed upon and ironed-out before summits take place. That's what preparatory meetings are for. It's not like they set a date and expect things to be sorted within the couple of days the summit is conducted.

Edited May 25, 2018 by Morch

[Morch]

4 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

The Russians and Chinese will kick out the USA  from Asia.The USA never wanted peace between SK and NK.If they have peace then there is no need for US soldiers in SK or Japan.Trump is a total loser.If trump stays any longer in office the USA  will be kicked out allover Asia and soon the EU will also turn their back and open to the east.If the USA are isolated from the rest of the world,then what?Since trump USA is more like an enemy than a partner and friend to the Europeans.

 

This is almost like a warped version of Playboy's Readers' fantasies.

 

In reality, neither SK nor Japan fully subscribes to the "no need for US soldiers" bit. Neither trusts China much. The EU, for all the talk, is not about to turn it's back on the US, nor "open to the east". Similarly, despite all of Trump's nonsense, the US is not more like an enemy" when it comes to Europe - unless people haven't learned from history what enemy actually means. But hey...whatever gets ya off.

 

This too shall pass.