Testosterone, steroids, etc.

[Destiny1990]

6 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Yes, my back problem is not an issue anymore! 

 

Back problems is also a stress related syndrom, so again, what comes first? 

So u also take specific vitamins like vitamin D?

[mokwit]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I can trace vitamin d back 20 years, but at 47 was my first T check. I believe from 36 I started on my low T because of back problems, lack of activity and vitamin D. Before that I exploded in energy everytime I travelled to sun, or we had summer back home, and during the fall and winter less energy, but still enough to be active and happy. 

 

Many factors leads to depression and low T, and what comes first is hard to know for most, but for me, it was back problems and inactivity. It is my best guess. 

My ability to function is very strongly affected by seasons - exactly following the monthly pattern in graph of Vit D and Test below (may be chart crime). I recognise the symptons of Seasonal Affective Disorder in myself and when living in Europe absolutely had to go for a walk outside  at lunchtime - like an addiction. That said I tried Vit D and High doses of Proviron and Andriol but seemingly no effect and I traced it right back to my twenties. When I looked there was a lot of research in Nordic countries on Testosterone levels seasonally but they found no correlation with T levels and season. I looked more recently and found papers suggesting correlation.

[Hummin]

11 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

So u also take specific vitamins like vitamin D?

Yes, when needed, I also monitor vitamin d when necessery. Buy from Iherb. And make sure I good over half of what is middle recomended range. 

 

I have a L4 and L5 lower back problem with 3 prolapses during the last 15 years. Last one 9 years ago. I also have/had spondylosis, but now I feel good, and no tendency at all. 

 

My prostate is normal!

Edited June 29, 2018 by Hummin

[mokwit]

What Vit D D3 or D2 and what daily dose?

[Hummin]

5 minutes ago, mokwit said:

What Vit D D3 or D2 and what daily dose?

I used this one on daily basis until I reached almost max level of recomended value 144 out 150 nmol/l, and since then I have lived in the sun and do not take any supplements for the moment, but it did take time to get up to that level. 

https://il.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Vitamin-D-3-High-Potency-5-000-IU-120-Softgels/10421

 

I also did eat fish and take fish oil supplements, and Dr recomended doses before that, but at no help before I started with this one. 

[Destiny1990]

3 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I used this one on daily basis until I reached almost max level of recomended value 144 out 150 nmol/l, and since then I have lived in the sun and do not take any supplements for the moment, but it did take time to get up to that level. 

https://il.iherb.com/pr/Now-Foods-Vitamin-D-3-High-Potency-5-000-IU-120-Softgels/10421

 

I also did eat fish and take fish oil supplements, and Dr recomended doses before that, but at no help before I started with this one. 

Did u have dry skin on some areas before and or dry eyes, wrinkles etc and did this improve once u started with TRT?

[Hummin]

16 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Did u have dry skin on some areas before and or dry eyes, wrinkles etc and did this improve once u started with TRT?

Yes I have lost my hair slowly since 16, very little body hair (now I get little bit) early wrinkles, and always used skin lotion, and had dry eyes as long I can remember. I only use lenses doing sport, and can not wear them to long if I watch movie and so on. Now I do not know have not used them for a long time. And my allergies is much better, gras, birch and so on. 

Edited June 29, 2018 by Hummin

[Destiny1990]

17 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Yes I have lost my hair slowly since 16, very little body hair (now I get little bit) early wrinkles, and always used skin lotion, and had dry eyes as long I can remember. I only use lenses doing sport, and can not wear them to long if I watch movie and so on. Now I do not know have not used them for a long time. And my allergies is much better, gras, birch and so on. 

Yep because how i see things if ur T levels are lower then the minium for ur age range then basically u begin to age faster as u should so then there’s big chance for joint pains, dry skin,memory , etc etc and about 1000’s of other problems just because of low T.. TRT will likely reverse these complaints just as in your case and probably in mine case also..

 

[mokwit]

On 6/29/2018 at 9:18 AM, robblok said:

Of course you need to change your life a bit too, seems logical to me. How can you have loads of energy if your drinking too much every day. The TRT helps but you need to help yourself too, i got fat (pre TRT) from drinking and eating too much. I was still exercising a lot but it did not help. You can't out-train a bad diet. 

Robblock Quick Q for you also - Do you think you might have had Low T levels all your life? You are currently in your 40's right (exactly how old, how long on TRT)? How many years back from how old you are now was everything OK, i.e. no reason for TRT?

[robblok]

18 hours ago, mokwit said:

Robblock Quick Q for you also - Do you think you might have had Low T levels all your life? You are currently in your 40's right (exactly how old, how long on TRT)? How many years back from how old you are now was everything OK, i.e. no reason for TRT?

Hi, to be honest I don't really know. I only know that when i tested during my diet (I lost 25 kg) my T levels were just a bit below normal. I wanted to go for optimal and found information and with a lot of blood tests and a bit of experimenting i found a range i liked energy wise and all. It also took some experimenting to get my estrogen to the low normal (better to lose fat). I could have kept it high normal but just felt low normal was better. I also am on thyroid medicine, also discovered around the same time but for that i knew i was always low as i always had problems with eating food (meaning a lil got me fat)

[mokwit]

Robblok, thanks to you and Hummin for responding. Two is not a meaningful sample size but I note you are both in your fourties and specifically below the threshold of around 48 when things start to fall off a cliff. At 44 I was like 24, at 46 I started using 1/4 Viagra, at 49 I started using clomid and Proviron.

 

It seems to me from reading and talking with people that the symptons in men under say 48 with low T are similar to those in guys 48+ with low T but I get the impression there is a big difference in responsiveness to TRT. A young guy whose levels are taken back to normal levels seems to get good remission of symptons, whereas guys over 48 may show some improvement in some areas but not a remission of all symptons as with younger men. One study gave men in their 70's a level of 1200 ng DL High range of young men - they reported nothing whatsoever, no effect.

 

This obviously is a consideration  for people like me in their mid fifties - I may permanently shut down my own T for little or no improvement over what I am obtaining with Proviron + Clomid, but then committed to TRT for the rest of my life as a result. I still have symptons - particularly with respect to sexual and other motivation, and ability to concentrate,  but my body clearly is still producing T as evidenced by recently switching to heavy free weights and putting on 10 pounds in a month (or somebody moved the scale - but I could feel how much tighter my shirts were across the shoulder and I was visibly bigger/more defined). Getting back to the OP In my mid fifties I now look like a Greek god* using primarily a compound regarded as having no anabolic qualities - but maybe I have a lot of T bound to SBHG which P is known to displace thus raising free T and I take it 2 hours before gym to get peak T levels whilst working out.

 

*don't ask for pic as currently due to carelessness with eating  I look like a Greek god who has been attending too many banquets - good muscle tone but a belly - also I don't know how to pose.

 

 

[robblok]

On 7/1/2018 at 12:39 PM, mokwit said:

Robblok, thanks to you and Hummin for responding. Two is not a meaningful sample size but I note you are both in your fourties and specifically below the threshold of around 48 when things start to fall off a cliff. At 44 I was like 24, at 46 I started using 1/4 Viagra, at 49 I started using clomid and Proviron.

 

It seems to me from reading and talking with people that the symptons in men under say 48 with low T are similar to those in guys 48+ with low T but I get the impression there is a big difference in responsiveness to TRT. A young guy whose levels are taken back to normal levels seems to get good remission of symptons, whereas guys over 48 may show some improvement in some areas but not a remission of all symptons as with younger men. One study gave men in their 70's a level of 1200 ng DL High range of young men - they reported nothing whatsoever, no effect.

 

This obviously is a consideration  for people like me in their mid fifties - I may permanently shut down my own T for little or no improvement over what I am obtaining with Proviron + Clomid, but then committed to TRT for the rest of my life as a result. I still have symptons - particularly with respect to sexual and other motivation, and ability to concentrate,  but my body clearly is still producing T as evidenced by recently switching to heavy free weights and putting on 10 pounds in a month (or somebody moved the scale - but I could feel how much tighter my shirts were across the shoulder and I was visibly bigger/more defined). Getting back to the OP In my mid fifties I now look like a Greek god* using primarily a compound regarded as having no anabolic qualities - but maybe I have a lot of T bound to SBHG which P is known to displace thus raising free T and I take it 2 hours before gym to get peak T levels whilst working out.

 

*don't ask for pic as currently due to carelessness with eating  I look like a Greek god who has been attending too many banquets - good muscle tone but a belly - also I don't know how to pose.

 

 

I wont ask for pics .. i feel i always look small on pics and I also don't know how to pose. 

 

You are right free weighs and compound exercises are the way to go. You must have been a relative new trainer to put on 10 pounds. Meaning you havent trained serious with heavy weights and compounds before otherwise you would not have gotten that response. 

 

Well done.

[mokwit]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

You must have been a relative new trainer to put on 10 pounds. Meaning you havent trained serious with heavy weights and compounds before

Absolutely that was the case - had been using a multigym for years with maximum weight already and no further increases possible - but I did notice I bulked up when using same weights as for many years when started using proviron - more than DHT derivative reducing water via Oestrogen reduction - definite change in shape and bulking as described by bodybuilders using known anabolics. Friends I had not seen for a few weeks were looking at me and saying "<deleted>! you must have been hitting the gym hard".

 

I would add that I am maintaining those gains with considerably less gym time than when I started.

Edited July 2, 2018 by mokwit

[robblok]

19 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Absolutely that was the case - had been using a multigym for years with maximum weight already and no further increases possible - but I did notice I bulked up when using same weights as for many years when started using proviron - more than DHT derivative reducing water via Oestrogen reduction - definite change in shape and bulking as described by bodybuilders using known anabolics. Friends I had not seen for a few weeks were looking at me and saying "<deleted>! you must have been hitting the gym hard".

 

I would add that I am maintaining those gains with considerably less gym time than when I started.

Maintaining takes far less time and effort then to build. Its a world of difference.

[Destiny1990]

Starting with an daily low dose of Proviron 25/50 Mg seems to give many a good results with few side effects.

Does anyone know its possible to have it injected?

[mokwit]

Have seen Injectable Proviron made by an Indian generic but not available here. Schering issued a recipe for making injectable from powder.

 

A close alternative to Proviron as injectible would be Masteron (Drostanolone Propionate)  or a longer lasting long chain Ester Mastebolan/Mast Depot [Drostanolone Enanthate]. I think both are available here as UGL. With injectable you are going to get higher plasma levels - oral Proviron is only 3% absorbed.

 

I am not medically qualified and the above is not medical advice, just genera lnfo  - Standard disclaimer: you should seek medical advice.

 

If you want some anabolic as well as adrenergic effect then Primobolan is an expensive alternative with high risk of fakes - Pharma Primobolan is manufactured as Rimobolan by Schering in Turkey but also professionally counterfeited.

 

My experience is that Proviron gives good results at 50mg and I know of two Doctor who prescribes it at that dose or higher for LT use. Officially key risks are hair loss, prostate enlargement, and T suppression as opposed to shut down (but if that occurs at all it is seemingly not a factor below the 75-100mg dose level)

Edited July 15, 2018 by mokwit

[mokwit]

My experience with Proviron cut and paste from elsewhere:

 

I have been taking it daily in doses of 50-250mg/day for 5 years now.

 

Note I am not giving medical advice and am NOT medically qualified - I am merely describing my experience/research.

Abbreviations: P = Proviron T = Testosterone C = Clomid I use P for Testosterone supplementation (SUPPLEMENTATION not replacement) at age 54 - I still obviously produce T and don't want to shut down my T production by injecting T and can get the needed boost with Proviron. There is a Belgian Doctor who I found I had previously come to the same conclusions. His view is that as T drops DHT is disproportionately affected (opposite of what Proscar/Finesteride research support shows? But they only have to publish what they want to.....)

 

If you are young, you have no idea what happens to a guy 'round about 48 onwards. Someone who might occasionally have struggled at 3x afternoon 5x all night can find himself struggling at 3x 1 week. When sex drive started falling away my initial feeling was one of relief- it was nice to have the intensity turned down - I doubt I could have taken P at younger age. I found libido effect kicked in around 10 days just as it is supposed to but it is a very base libido - not a generator of erotic imagery, more like what a dog or maybe an amoeba or a worm probably feels.

 

Dosage: 50mg day Stopped the occasional losing rigidity halfway through proceedings. If the conventional wisdom is correct must have a lot of T bound to SHBG because after a month doing same reps as last 10 years friends were saying "<deleted>!, you've been hitting the gym hard" - looks like more than just anti E stripping out water. Bulked up and changes Natty vs Gear size shape. Stopped night sweats. Word memory improved.

Using Clomid to boost T - no discernible effects when used C alone - none psychological, male sexual or in the Gym. Nothing.

 

100mg Day Stopped not getting rigidity (not talking skeletal muscle here folks) 250mg day Reason for this high dose is counter aging effects - primarily CNS effects e.g stopping brain fog/poor concentration, the loss of memory where you can't remember a word - that is low T related - It is a known syndrome named after someone whose name I have forgotten ? .......but its on the Wiki t page.

 

250Mg day aggression in the Gym (3x 1 hr/ per week) and very real feeling of strength gains (felt this with 50mg also when started). Even if I say so myself, look quite muscular/lean and ripped for a 54 yr old guy who does 3x 1hr/week (but genetics are muscularity).

250mg contrary to the literature increases semen volume IME. Could 3x 1 week in winter – before could not finish.

No signs of T suppression in me. There is maybe a 50"50 split in the literature between no suppression and mild suppression - most I have seen up to 30% suppression of T on 200mg day - the key point here is suppression NOT SHUT DOWN - in one study they checked people not suppressed by high doses Proviron by giving them Methyltestosterone - the MT immediately shut them down. If you go beyond the BB forums Pub Med papers circular referencing you will find many more studies showing no confirmed/material suppression even at 200mg for 1 yr. Fertility use seems to be around/up to100mg to 200mg day, antidepressant use 350mg- I remember one study cited used 600mg. Also those on forums generally don't have the scientific background to consider the statistical and empirical rigour of studies quoted, or may not understand how some terms are used - e.g. "significant" in that context means STATISTICALLY significant. So "significant suppression" could mean 95 out of 100 showed 5% suppression - this may be statistically significant, but arguably not material. etc. One key point is that when Proviron is referred to as a 'weak' androgen in the literature/textbooks they are actually referring to inability to suppress HPTA compared to other androgenic/anabolic steroids - I went back to the original papers that were quoted in the textbooks and that is what ;'weak' meant then. DHT itself in one study that dosed massively super-physiological levels of DHT said T was suppressed to "castrate levels" but total circulating androgen (DHT and T) was higher than pre study base level.

 

Stopped getting up in the night on 250 - likely T:E ratio is cause of Prostate enlargement - it was fear of this and T suppression that kept me on 50mg/day for maybe 2 years until sure - if your prostate enlarges it may not go down and you will never sleep the whole night through again. My experience is contrary to conventional wisdom but not contrary to the research i have done. Side effects: One reason for going back down to 125 when can is seeming all night rigidity on 250 - risk of damage as highlighted by Bayer- Otherwise none discernible even at 250 in winter months - Initial Psychiological boost does seem to wear off. Hair loss may be preceding at a faster rate than it would anyway but I am Ok with paying that as a price for other benefits. After a few months on 250 (4x x2 x4), back down to 125 for summer months when needed less and now back up to 250. If anybody has any Q or if of enough interest to want more of my experiences feel free to ask. Logical conclusion is that I am hard wired the wrong way 'round from everyone else of much of the conventional wisdom on P just aint so. I reiterate am using P for T SUPPLEMENTATION while I am still producing T (no I have not done any blood work, much to the dissaproval of a couple of Doctors I have run this past - "you really should have established what your base levels were". P may NOT be suitable for T REPLACEMENT Therapy in older guys - not sure if it stimulates Bone Mineral Density for example.

 

Found this useful in determining what is maybe DHT mediated and what is maybe T mediated. Post-Finasteride / 5ARI Syndrome Post-drug: symptoms start to manifest within weeks of quitting drug (typically when Testosterone levels drop) On drug + post-drug: symptoms manifested while on drug http://www.propeciahelp.com/symptoms

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by mokwit

[mokwit]

Comparison of Proviron and Masteron written on a web board by "halfcenturian" and cut and paste by me from there

 

 

Masteron

Pharmaceutical Name: drostanolone (as propionate)
Chemical structure: 2 alpha-methyl-17 beta-hydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-3-one

Effective dose: 100 mg every 2-3 days
Average Street-price: $15-25 per ampul ($30-50 per two ampul package)
Available Doses: 50 mg/ml in 1 or 2 ml vials



Characteristics:

Drostanolone is structurally a 2-methylated form of the hormone dihydrotestosterone (dihydrotestosterone), which is formed when testosterone interacts with the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme. dihydrotestosterone is dreaded by many who fear androgenic side-effects such as increased acne and body hair, loss of hair and prostate hypertrophy. 5-alpha-reduction often mediates or speeds up such processes because dihydrotestosterone binds to the androgen receptor 3-4 times better than testosterone. That means androgenically speaking, no steroid is quite as powerful as dihydrotestosterone.

For those looking to reduce body-fat and water retention such a compound is literally a dream. Drostanolone, being 5-alpha reduced, cannot form estrogen upon interaction with the aromatase enzyme yet still shows a very high affinity for it. Because it takes up so much of the aromatase enzyme, yet is refrained from actually using it by its structural make-up, it reduces the amount of estrogen formed1 from other steroids as well because there are less aromatase enzymes to be used by those compounds to form estrogen with. This made stacking with slightly aromatizing compounds such as boldenone much more bearable as it eliminated even the slight aromatisation of such substances. So for bodybuilders the use of drostanolone is not only in limiting estrogens in question, but also eliminating possible estrogen formation from other steroids used during this time for increased anabolic or anti-catabolic activity. This because, especially for larger bodybuilders, drostanolone alone does not suffice to retain the maximum amount of weight.

The reduction of estrogenic capacity of course made drostanolone ill-suited for use as a mass-builder. In fact the gains on it were quite limited. Someone seeking to gain muscle mass rarely, if ever, resorted to a dihydrotestosterone compound. But coupled to its extreme androgenic qualities it lead to the perfect compound to retain strength and mass while shedding body-fat. The absence of estrogen refrained it from increasing water or salt retention, and there is evidence that the androgenic component may expedite the fat loss process2. The exact mechanims by which a rise in androgens stimulates fat loss is not known, but it is theorized that it may be due to catecholamine-induced (epinephrine, norepinephrine and dopamine) lipolysis, caused by the androgen increasing the number of beta-adrenergic receptors (the primary triggers for fat mobilization) on the membrane surface of fat cells. It is my understanding however that the noted decrease in body-fat is mainly due to a slight increase in lean mass and a stagnation of the body-fat, automatically resulting in a loss of body-fat in percentages, after recalibration.

This would also highly promote its use for power- and weightlifters as they compete in weight classes. Drostanolone can promote the increased strength while keeping body-fat the same or even lowering it. Allowing for an increased perfomance without the risk of being cast into a higher and more difficult weight class.

One possible use for drostanolone during the off-season, when gaining mass, may be dihydrotestosterone's affinity for the binding proteins of sex steroids : sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin. Normally a large amount of testosterone cannot be used by the body in anabolic functions because it is mostly bound to these plasma proteins. When testosterone is administered along with a dihydrotestosterone-compound, the dihydrotestosterone will take up most of the protein and allow the testosterone to exert its massive anabolic effects, thereby increasing the possible gains, especially in lower doses. Of course, due to the limited availability of drostanolone and its high price, this is the type of situation one usually resorts to mesterolone (1-methyl-dihydrotestosterone as in proviron) for. Its cheaper and equally effective to serve this particular purpose (but notably weaker in other aspects, since like dihydrotestosterone its readily deactivated in muscle tissue by the 3-alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme).

When discussing the side-effects, for once I'm going to go easy. This is because most people are well aware of the side-effects of dihydrotestosterone compounds and scared to death of them because androgenic side-effects caused by mass compounds like testosterone are largely attributed to the formation of dihydrotestosterone at the 5AR receptor enzyme. This may be a time to step back and look what sort of damage dihydrotestosterone can realistically do. An increase in acne is almost always noted, but if that doesn't seem to bother you with other steroids, then why with a short-acting androgen like drostanolone ? Hair loss seems to be the major concern, but if you've dealt with the use of steroids before or are educated to their effects you are aware that it merely speeds up a genetically pre-existing condition of male pattern hair loss (androgenetic alopecia). This condition only occurs in 30% of men and can easily be detected by examining the men on your mother's side of the family. Androgenetic alopecia is passed on through the X chromosome and thus in matri-linear fashion (mothers side). The rule of thumb being quite simple : if you have it, don't touch this compound, if you don't, then you don't have to worry. Yes, it really can be that simple.

That only leaves benign prostate hypertrophy (enlarged prostate) and the related conditions such as prostate cancer. Recent evidence shows that estrogen too is a mediator in the development of this condition, which would lead us to draw the conclusion that a purely androgenic compound, lest taken with a highly aromatizing substance, has considerably less risk for aggravating such a condition than dihydrotestosterone formed by testosterone. These last two paragraphs to show that perhaps the side-effects of dihydrotestosterone are largely exaggerated. But that doesn't mean they just went away because I said so, extreme caution needs to be exercised by individuals at risk for hair loss and prostate problems. But to add one last bit of perspective, keep in mind that this compound is injected and spread across the body evenly. When dihydrotestosterone is formed by testosterone, its formed in androgen specific tissues, meaning its mostly concentrated in scalp, skin and prostate, which isn't the case here.

Perhaps the most favorable effect of drostanolone is that it can increase muscle hardness and density in the athlete, giving him a more complete and finished look when he steps on stage. A lot of pure androgens have this effect. But with all of them you need an already rather low body-fat level for it to take full effect. A lot of people who had heard of this effect experimented with drostanolone and were sorely disappointed because they were too fat when they started.

Drostanolone is usually a propionate, which is a short-acting ester. That means frequent injections (every 24-48 hours) are needed for maximum effect. This can be quite a pain and cause abscesses due to the many injection marks at the same site, but this has positives too : Drostanolone propionate can be hid from detection in two weeks or less, making it safe for use up to that point without fear of being exposed at a drug test. Not that it would necessarily interrupt plans if it was, because eventhough chromatographic tests have been able to detect dihydrotestosterone compounds since 1997, they are rarely implemented in most sports. No doubt that gave it an edge over things like stanazolol for many athletes.

One major downside is that as time goes by the odds of finding Masteron are quite slim. It hasn't been made in quite a while and its safe to say that 90% of all you'd find out there are fakes. On some foreign markets there are some masteron analogs available, but even these are quite rare and very expensive on European and American domestic markets.

Stacking and Use:

Drostanolone is not a drug that requires the use of alternate drugs. People with a tendency for hypertension may want to take the necessary precautions, but drostanolone does not aromatize at any rate making the use of anti-estrogens irrelevant, both during a cycle to prevent side-effects as post-cycle to boost natural testosterone (E.g. Clomid). There is simply no need for alternate drugs and because its an esterified injectable there is no hazard to the liver worth mentioning either.

Best use is to inject 50-100 mg every day to every other day, depending on your degree of expertise in training and your size of course. Most beginners will be quite satisfied with either 50 mg every other day or 100 mg every 3 days. Mostly used in conjunction with other drugs as dihydrotestosterone is quite easily de-activated in the body (althouth drostanolone's 2-methyl group protects it somewhat from deactivation by stabilizing the 3-keto group).

Drostanolone is best stacked with something in the nature of boldenone (Equipoise) at 300 mg a week. The boldenone gives increased vascularity and the drostanolone adds muscle density while the stack as a whole preserves muscle mass. Although its rare that someone opts for a stack of two compounds with largely similar action, something can be said about stacking drostanolone with Stanazolol (Winstrol/stromba). The drostanolone doesn't stay active at the AR very much, often being drawn to SHBG, albumin, aromatase or 3bHSD, but still adds distinct hardness and boosts strength to some degree. Adding Winstrol, which has higher activity at the Androgen Receptor and some affinity for the progesterone receptor may form quite a synergistic stack. It would also be safe to throw in some nandrolone (Deca-Durabolin - nandrolone decanoate - -Durabolin) at 200-300 mg per week.

One would almost never use drostanolone while trying to gain mass, except in order to block the aromatase enzyme, which forms estrogen. But a better option there is Proviron, an analog dihydrotestosterone-compound (mesterolone) which is basically only used for that purpose. Drostanolone is too expensive and too hard to come by to employ it for that reason.


PROVIRON

Pharmaceutical Name: Mesterolone
Chemical structure: 1 alpha-methyl-17 beta-hydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-3-one

Effective dose: 25-100 mg / day orally
Average Street-price: $0.80 - 1.50 per 25 mg tab
Available Doses: 10, 20, 25 and 50 mg tabs


Characteristics:

Mesterolone is an orally active, 1-methylated dihydrotestosterone. Like Masteron, but then actually delivered in an oral fashion. dihydrotestosterone is the conversion product of testosterone at the 5-alpha-reductase enzyme, the result being a hormone that is 3 to 4 times as androgenic and is structurally incapable of forming estrogen. One would imagine then that mesterolone would be a perfect drug to enhance strength and add small but completely lean gains to the frame. Unfortunately there is a control mechanism for dihydrotestosterone in the human body. When levels get too high, the 3alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme converts it to a mostly inactive compound known as 3-alpha (5-alpha-androstan-3alpha,17beta-diol), a prohormone if you will. It can equally convert back to dihydrotestosterone by way of the same enzyme when low levels of dihydrotestosterone are detected. But it means that unless one uses ridiculously high amounts, most of what is administered is quite useless at the height of the androgen receptor in muscle tissue and thus mesterolone is not particularly suited, if at all, to promote muscle hypertrophy.

Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, dihydrotestosterone has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing "harder" muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated dihydrotestosterone compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone, with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don't have the same affinities as dihydrotestosterone does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone, nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease Libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. dihydrotestosterone plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone, or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse.

Mesterolone is generally well liked nonetheless as it delivers very few side-effects in men. In high doses it can cause some virilization symptoms in women. But because of the high level of deactivation and pre-destination in the system (albumin, SHBG, 3bHSD, aromatase) quite a lot of it, if not all simply never reaches the androgen receptor where it would cause anabolic effects, but also side-effects. So its relatively safe. Doses between 25 and 250 mg per day are used with no adverse effects. 50 mg per day is usually sufficient to be effective in each of the four cases we mentioned up above, so going higher really isn't necessary. Unlike what some suggest or believe, its not advised that Proviron be used when not used in conjunction with another steroid, as it too is quite suppressive of natural testosterone, leading to all sorts of future complications upon discontinuation. Ranging from loss of Libido or erectile dysfunction all the way up to infertility. One would not be aware of such dangers because Proviron fulfills most of the functions of normal levels of testosterone.

Stacking and Use:

Mesterolone is an oral alkylated steroid. If used primarily as an anti-aromatase drug, using it throughout a longer cycle (10-12 weeks) of injectables may elevate liver values a little bit, though much, much less than one would expect with a 17-alpha-alkylated steroid. Eventhough instead of inhibiting gains, mesterolone may actually contribute to gains. So that's a bit of a shame. Its not quite as toxic since its not alkylated in the same fashion, but at the 1 position, which reduces hepatic breakdown, but not like 17-alpha alkylation. The reason for the change of position I assume, is because alkylating at the 17-alpha position has been shown to reduce affinity for sex hormone binding proteins. This would in turn decrease its ability to free testosterone. Nonetheless the delivery rate is quite good. Its taken daily in 50-100 mg doses.

The best thing to stack it with is testosterone of course. Its most easily bound to SHBG and albumin, and deactivated for up to 98%. Since the dihydrotestosterone can compete for these structures with higher affinity it would naturally lead to a higher yield of whatever testosterone product you stacked it with. Since dihydrotestosterone levels are notably higher now there is also more stimulation of the androgen receptor causing more strength gains, and because of its affinity for aromatase the overall estrogen level decreases as well. This has as a result that gains are leaner, and once again the overall testosterone yield is increased as less I converted at the aromatase enzyme.

It's of course used in other stacks with products such as methandrostenolone, boldenone and nandrolone to reduce estrogenic activity and increase muscle hardness. The addition of proviron makes boldenone a dead lock for a cutting stack and for some may even make it possible to use nandrolone while cutting, although the use of Winstrol or a receptor antagonist in conjunction is wishful as well. The benefit of adding it to a nandrolone stack is that it may also help you reduce the decrease in Libido suffered from nandrolone, since the latter is mostly deactivated by 5-alpha reductase, an enzyme that makes other hormones more androgenic.

Proviron is an anti-aromatase, so obviously anti-estrogens would be futile and redundant. Blood pressure medication for those prone to hypertension may be wise, as this dihydrotestosterone can increase the blood pressure.

[vinegarbase]

Check out Testopel. It's a pellet they inject in your butt that gives you a steady dose of test for 3-6 months. There is nothing wrong with getting a little low dose test when you are approaching 60 or over. It is actually good for your health at that point.

Edited July 15, 2018 by vinegarbase

[Destiny1990]

3 hours ago, mokwit said:

Have seen Injectable Proviron made by an Indian generic but not available here. Schering issued a recipe for making injectable from powder.

 

A close alternative to Proviron as injectible would be Masteron (Drostanolone Propionate)  or a longer lasting long chain Ester Mastebolan/Mast Depot [Drostanolone Enanthate]. I think both are available here as UGL. With injectable you are going to get higher plasma levels - oral Proviron is only 3% absorbed.

 

I am not medically qualified and the above is not medical advice, just genera lnfo  - Standard disclaimer: you should seek medical advice.

 

If you want some anabolic as well as adrenergic effect then Primobolan is an expensive alternative with high risk of fakes - Pharma Primobolan is manufactured as Rimobolan by Schering in Turkey but also professionally counterfeited.

 

My experience is that Proviron gives good results at 50mg and I know of two Doctor who prescribes it at that dose or higher for LT use. Officially key risks are hair loss, prostate enlargement, and T suppression as opposed to shut down (but if that occurs at all it is seemingly not a factor below the 75-100mg dose level)

Yes so this can work for TRT and used Mono in a low dose without adding additional  T.?

[mokwit]

1 hour ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yes so this can work for TRT and used Mono in a low dose without adding additional  T.?

Very difficult to give definitive answer - I think the key to it is how much T you are still producing and the extent to which the Masteron dose might suppress that, but i note you are talking low doses - as a DHT derivative it is only one leg of a three legged stool - the other legs are Testosterone itself which DHT substitutes for in many tissues but not very much in muscle due to enzymatic breakdown, and Oestrogen which is needed for erections, bone mineral density. The Medical profession uses T for this reason.

 

Short answer: Masteron may be OK for SUPPLEMENTATION in low doses at the margin when T levels are maybe lower with age/lower than normal but not collapsed, but NOT as REPLACEMENT for T where T levels are very low.

 

You could have a situation where the Masteron suppresses T to a material degree, but generally it seems DHT derivatives suppress T production but don't fully shut it down (have seen one study using DHT in hugely supra-physiological doses where T was shut down to "castrate levels".) Also if Masteron suppresses Oestrogen similar to the way Proviron does there is a possibility it could reduce Oestrogen too much - Oestrogen has to be in a range not to high or low.

 

That said I am essentially doing the same you are suggesting thing with Proviron but NOTE it seems that my body is still producing Testosterone (and I am helping that with Clomid) and thus I am using P for T SUPPLEMENTATION not REPLACEMENT. If you are still producing T and use a Masteron dose that is enough to give an effect but not enough to materially suppress your own T you could benefit with little risk of side effects/problems. Bodybuilders use a Testosterone base when using other compounds, even with Primabolan but they are using high steroid doses. If using Masteron for cutting they use it maybe 2 weeks before a contest and maybe dispense with T base.

 

Any particular reason you want to go with an injectable rather than use e.g. 50mg of Proviron which is a dose that seems to give benefit but not suppress T and is a dose used by 2 specialist docs I know of, but note once T levels are really low with age T itself is regarded as more suitable. If you inject a DHT derivative to give higher levels of DHT analog than you would get with oral Proviron the higher Plasma levels would mean a blood test would probably be necessary to see what is really going on.

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by mokwit

[Destiny1990]

54 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Very difficult to give definitive answer - I think the key to it is how much T you are still producing and the extent to which the Masteron dose might suppress that, but i note you are talking low doses - as a DHT derivative it is only one leg of a three legged stool - the other legs are Testosterone itself which DHT substitutes for in many tissues but not very much in muscle due to enzymatic breakdown, and Oestrogen which is needed for erections, bone mineral density. The Medical profession uses T for this reason.

 

Short answer: Masteron may be OK for SUPPLEMENTATION in low doses at the margin when T levels are maybe lower than normal but not collapsed, but NOT as REPLACEMENT for T where T levels are very low.

 

You could have a situation where the Masteron suppresses T to a material degree, but generally it seems DHT derivatives suppress T production but don't fully shut it down (have seen one study using DHT in hugely supra-physiological doses where T was shut down to "castrate levels".) Also if Masteron suppresses Oestrogen similar to the way Proviron does there is a possibility it could reduce Oestrogen too much - Oestrogen has to be in a range not to high or low.

 

That said I am essentially doing the same you are suggesting thing with Proviron but NOTE it seems that my body is still producing Testosterone (and I am helping that with Clomid) and thus I am using P for T SUPPLEMENTATION not REPLACEMENT. If you are still producing T and use a Masteron dose that is enough to give an effect but not enough to materially suppress your own T you could benefit with little risk of side effects/problems. Bodybuilders use a Testosterone base when using other compounds, even with Primabolan but they are using high steroid doses. If using Masteron for cutting they use it maybe 2 weeks before a contest and maybe dispense with T base.

 

Any particular reason you want to go with an injectable rather than use e.g. 50mg of Proviron which is a dose that seems to give benefit but not suppress T and is a dose used by 2 specialist docs I know of, but note once T levels are really low with age T itself is regarded as more suitable. If you inject a DHT derivative to give higher levels of DHT analog than you would get with oral Proviron the higher Plasma levels would mean a blood test would probably be necessary to see what is really going on.

 

Well my body still makes T..i only have a low T level for my age 48 years.  my doctor tells me to take daily androgel low dose.. but So far i never started with trt mainly for side effects hesitations especially smaller testicles...

Maybe Proviron don't have that side effect especially in a low dose?

i read somewhere that Proviron injections are even better then tablets but i willing try either way..

i read there are lot of guys feeling good with P.. good mood energy libido few side  effects only..

 

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, hyku1147 said:

Do you have high estrogen?

Its a good question and weirdly enough   In 3 bloodtest i did never some Doctor told me about testing estrogen while that number might explain while i have low T anyway..

Because i dont smoke or drink live healthy sleep good so why my T low i wonder.. so it makes good sense checking first my estrogen before any TRT?

[Destiny1990]

My T levels are 278 nglm or 2,78..

thats on the real low side for an 48 years of age.. my PSA perfect, kidneys good all others the measured was fine except low T however Estrogen not yet been measured..

 

Edited July 15, 2018 by Destiny1990

[Destiny1990]

3 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

High estrogen causes many problems for men. The culprit [in many cases] is the aromatase enzyme:

http://roguehealthandfitness.com/testosterone-arimidex/

Seems that link doesn’t open but are u saying that high estrogen can cause low T levels? Seems the common doctor approach is if ur T level are low then they recommend to start adding TRT.. 

[mokwit]

10 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

My T levels are 278 nglm or 2,78..

thats on the real low side for an 48 years of age.. my PSA perfect, kidneys good all others the measured was fine except low T however Estrogen not yet been measured..

 

This is below the 300 ng dl that the medical profession almost universally agree is hypogonadal and is the level you would expect to see in an 80 year old man not a 48 yr old.

 

This should really be addressed by someone medically qualified and a specialist endocrinologist to boot. If your levels are that low you are at risk of health being affected - especially if it continues to decline as you age. It would seem that you should really be on TRT rather than trying to supplement at the margin with Proviron.

 

It is more likely that your Estrogen is low on an absolute basis BUT high relative to T i.e. poor T:E ratio - your E could be high at these levels if you have some pathology with aromatase being high or if you are obese and have a lot of fat where conversion of T to E takes place.

 

Did none of the docs try and find out why levels are so low? It is more likely to be pathology than diet unless your diet is devoid of Cholesterol or its precursors, or you are extremely deficient in e.g. Vit D or Zinc. That said as you are nearly 50, maybe the Docs felt the best response is likely to be from TRT rather than trying to stimulate the HPTA with clomid (secondary hypogonadism) or HCG (primary hypogonadism)

 

You can still try Proviron at 25-75 mg as there is little/no T suppression at these doses BUT if your oestrogen is LOW not high it could further suppress it. I use Proviron because I don't want to shut down my own T but I am way overdue for checking I am not adversely affecting Oestrogen levels and thus e.g. bone mineral density - my oestrogen is likely not at zero as I would not function sexually if it was.

 

I have taken Proviron in doses of 250mg for 2-3 months with no sign of testicular atrophy and have never read/heard of it causing this. Testicular atrophy tends to come from shut down by T and steroids that convert to oestrogen, whereas DHT anologs tend to suppress but not shut down. Taking T in a dose to cause high enough blood levels to put you in a normal range is likely to cause testicular atrophy unless you inject HCG.

 

Enclosed below is the package insert for Proviron (Australia). You can buy it for Bt500 in BKK and there is info in the package insert

 

 

 

 

 

ProvironBayer.pdf

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

This is below the 300 ng dl that the medical profession almost universally agree is hypogonadal and is the level you would expect to see in an 80 year old man not a 48 yr old.

 

This should really be addressed by someone medically qualified and a specialist endocrinologist to boot. If your levels are that low you are at risk of health being affected - especially if it continues to decline as you age. It would seem that you should really be on TRT rather than trying to supplement at the margin with Proviron.

 

It is more likely that your Estrogen is low on an absolute basis BUT high relative to T i.e. poor T:E ratio - your E could be high at these levels if you have some pathology with aromatase being high or if you are obese and have a lot of fat where conversion of T to E takes place.

 

Did none of the docs try and find out why levels are so low? It is more likely to be pathology than diet unless your diet is devoid of Cholesterol or its precursors, or you are extremely deficient in e.g. Vit D or Zinc. That said as you are nearly 50, maybe the Docs felt the best response is likely to be from TRT rather than trying to stimulate the HPTA with clomid (secondary hypogonadism) or HCG (primary hypogonadism)

 

You can still try Proviron at 25-75 mg as there is little/no T suppression at these doses BUT if your oestrogen is LOW not high it could further suppress it. I use Proviron because I don't want to shut down my own T but I am way overdue for checking I am not adversely affecting Oestrogen levels and thus e.g. bone mineral density - my oestrogen is likely not at zero as I would not function sexually if it was.

 

I have taken Proviron in doses of 250mg for 2-3 months with no sign of testicular atrophy and have never read/heard of it causing this. Testicular atrophy tends to come from shut down by T and steroids that convert to oestrogen, whereas DHT anologs tend to suppress but not shut down. Taking T in a dose to cause high enough blood levels to put you in a normal range is likely to cause testicular atrophy unless you inject HCG.

 

Enclosed below is the package insert for Proviron (Australia). You can buy it for Bt500 in BKK and there is info in the package insert

 

 

 

 

 

ProvironBayer.pdf

Hi,

i have pm u my T level blood test cause maybe i wrongly typed the numbers.

Yes so far noone bothered to check why its low..

 i am 188 cm and 95 kg eat and live mostly healthy. I walk daily 5000/7000 steps..

me too i like to know why its low in the first place..

maybe i should Take instead of Proviron  Nebido shots or Test E and or Androgel not sure all of this available in Bangkok?

[vinegarbase]

Yes, Arimidex is a great solution if you can find it in Thailand. If you want to go the natural route to help lower your Estrogen levels buy a DIM supplement and take a couple pills a day. Either that or eat broccoli every meal, it helps metabolize estrogen.

[mokwit]

4 hours ago, Destiny1990 said:

Nebido shots or Test E and or Androgel not sure all of this available in Bangkok?

Nebido shots or Test E and or Androgel not sure all of this available in Bangkok?

 

Test E virtually any Pharmacy. Nebido Bt5400 from big open Nana Pharmacy and I think 12,000 all in Blood tests etc at Bumrungrad. Androgel apparently scarce/not available in BKK until September at the earliest.

 

Answered your PM

[mokwit]

If anybody really wants to understand the HPTA/Testoterone this is probably the best explanation, albeit assumes medical knowledge.

 

 

hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal.pdf