how to attract clients for purchase or rent of condos

[newnative]

8 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

You are not passively investing you are a remodeling contractor working on your own properties. I have been a Florida GC for 35 years and what you describe can result in 100% upside in many cases. Same for well placed spec houses. Difference it is work not to be compared to most folks here on TV. Besides that it is a slippery slope if you aren't contracting out 100% and doing this "investing" on a repetitive basis. You are acting as a business however you paint it. Even if you fly under a limited company you cant be director because signing docs is "work". One disgruntled Thai worker, vendor, buyer or bitter neighbor drops a dime and the labor boys show up, bye, bye. There is considerable risk involved beyond the risk which Thailand brings to the table.

        With all except 4 of the condos my Thai partner and I lived in them before we sold them.  The other 4 were bought to rent out long-term, which we did for at least a year each before they were sold.  As far as I know, you don't need  a work permit to decorate and furnish your condo or your rental property, which is what we do.   

       

[xylophone]

14 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

Do you actually believe a condo investment in a saturated market creating ultra cheap rents that depreciates 7% over 5 years located in a country with an unstable government whose policies shift like the breeze is risk free, nonsense! 

I have to agree with this, even though I did buy here at one time, because I would never do so again now I know how things work here.

 

The rule of law here does not favour foreigners and investing in condos/apartments/property where you have very little going for you is risky indeed.

 

Try complaining about noisy neighbours or short-term renters next to your condo and see how far you get, this especially if the development is owned by someone who is "connected".

 

And you may have a nice condo with one of the best views in the world, but you can be built out just like that and have absolutely no say in the matter.

 

Furthermore, buying off the plan is also a risky business as people have found here with the ACE and The Park condos and apartments, whose basic shells stand deteriorating, where there should have been around 1200 units standing, and as for the investors getting their money back, well nothing seems to have happened a few years down the track, despite protestations to the BIB and others in supposed positions of power.

 

As JAZZDOG has said, this is indeed a risky environment in which to invest and nobody knows when the rules and regulations will change, usually to suit the rich and powerful, rather than the everyday farang investor.

 

Sometimes one's last hope is the local lawyer, however with so many of them also beholden to those in power, it's highly unlikely that much will be done.

[JAZZDOG]

The case for buying vs renting a condo. Let's take a 70 m/2/ 2 bedroom/2 bath at The Base. Good location, nice amenities, ocean view, shopping etc. In todays market one would pay 9M for a nicely appointed unit with upgraded furniture, bedding etc.

The rent one would expect to receive on annual rental would be 35K/month. Assuming no appreciation based on past sales how would this play out from the question if one is better off renting or buying. Good thing about buying is if you live here full time you have 100% occupancy. If you intend to live part time or rent out asan investment that's another story. Likely you are looking at 70-75%.

So if you live full time here's the deal over 5 years.

 

equity invested           9,000,000 purchase + 270,000 closing costs = 9,270,000

add condo fee            50baht x 70m/2 = 3500baht x 60 = 210,000 + 9,270,000=9.48M

 

on the credit side       35,000 rent x 12 months = 420,000

 

opportunity cost        Your yield over one year= 420,000 / 9,480,000 = 4.4 %return

Factor in inflation and the yield is 3.4%

 

Now if you rent out to 3rd parties here's the deal;

same equity                                                                            9.48M

credit                          35,000 rent x 12 months x 75% = 315,000

OTM/Management   315,000 x 18% = 57,000

income credit             315,000 - 57,000 = 258,000

 

opportunity cost       258,000 income/year / 9.48M = 2.7% return/ 1.7 after inflation

 

IMPO the investment side is a non starter for the fact that there is far more likely a chance of selling at a loss than a gain due to a huge inventory of newer units coming online that would negate that small 1.7 return. One could easily be yielding US$ 24,000 / yr in a much less risky investment elsewhere. Possible vacancy and appreciation decline are too great in an unstable political climate.

 

If you intend to live full time it might be OK if you don't mind the opportunity cost of spending 35K to live at The Base. I could find any number of units I would prefer to the Base for 35K or even less. Again your bottom line would increase to the point that renting, leaving that US$ 300K in an investment yielding US$24K would likely cover rent and the majority of living expenses while freeing you up to move on without having too sell in a buyers market.

 

Thanks and feel free to tell me where my reasoning is flawed. I would like to see a breakdown from those who claim to be making above average returns on renting out condos, I just don't see it happening.

[ukrules]

4 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

 

Thanks and feel free to tell me where my reasoning is flawed. I would like to see a breakdown from those who claim to be making above average returns on renting out condos, I just don't see it happening.

 

I question is the rents, can you realisticly get 35,000 a month on a long term basis ?

 

Here's one little example of local delusion here in Hua Hin. There are 2 houses for sale in the 'block' of townhouses where I live. They're identical to the one I live in, the list prices are 8.0 and 7.5 million Baht per house.

 

My rent is 15,000 per month or 180k / year.

 

If they charge more than about 15k it will sit empty for years like most of the other houses around here.

 

If someone buys the house next door and tries to rent it out for 35k Baht they will never find a tennant, ever.

 

Yet the prices remain at 7.5 million or more.

Edited June 25, 2018 by ukrules

[Ks45672]

On 6/22/2018 at 12:30 PM, Peterw42 said:

Have you considered the price you are asking is to high, any property will attract buyers and sell for the right price. A few years on the market with no lookers or buyers, its priced wrong. Throwing in free steak knives wont make the condos worth more than they are.

Get a woman to do the Decor

If it looks luxury it will rent much faster

[JAZZDOG]

3 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

I question is the rents, can you realisticly get 35,000 a month on a long term basis ?

 

Here's one little example of local delusion here in Hua Hin. There are 2 houses for sale in the 'block' of townhouses where I live. They're identical to the one I live in, the list prices are 8.0 and 7.5 million Baht per house.

 

My rent is 15,000 per month or 180k / year.

 

If they charge more than about 15k it will sit empty for years like most of the other houses around here.

 

If someone buys the house next door and tries to rent it out for 35k Baht they will never find a tennant, ever.

 

Yet the prices remain at 7.5 million or more.

Exactly me point, why buy in LOS when rents are so cheap? Nobody that claims to be making money her investing in RE is willing to post numbers supporting such. Your example is typical. How much do you actual think it cost to buy the land and build that 8M house?

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, JAZZDOG said:

Exactly me point, why buy in LOS when rents are so cheap? Nobody that claims to be making money her investing in RE is willing to post numbers supporting such. Your example is typical. How much do you actual think it cost to buy the land and build that 8M house?

 

You're right, in this case the land would not have cost much, especially when you consider these houses were built at least 15 years ago.

 

A detached house maybe 20 meters along the same street standing on a piece of land about 5 times larger than the ~4m wide townhouses sold for 4.7 million Baht a couple of months ago. Much more land, much more house, much less price.

 

The whole market appears to be built on bullsh!t.

 

[JAZZDOG]

32 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

You're right, in this case the land would not have cost much, especially when you consider these houses were built at least 15 years ago.

 

A detached house maybe 20 meters along the same street standing on a piece of land about 5 times larger than the ~4m wide townhouses sold for 4.7 million Baht a couple of months ago. Much more land, much more house, much less price.

 

The whole market appears to be built on bullsh!t.

 

Most of my background is in new construction and like any product built we tried to maintain a standard profit plus overhead. We used 12 and 12 which resulted in a 25.66 % mark up. Don't get rich but shields the downside. We only built cost-plus. Learned early on contracting for a set price was like playing poker with your cards up, your opponents face down and they didn't tell you the wild card. Not knowing comps in LOS is kind of the same thing. Investing we use some common formulas and those that don't conform are rejected early on. Rarely here you will see appreciation like say the US or other places so many times you need to rely on rental income with long holding periods to see any uptick in price. If you were to owner build here that might be another story but to legally pull that off  would be a battle IMHO. Anyway in analyzing an investment I back into it, determine a minimum yield, 6% and determine a rent the subject will likely support. Determining rents is much easier then guessing past sales for which there is little data. Ends up a subject that clocks out at 16-18 times annual rent to price is a basement. In your example: 15,000month x 12months= 180,000 divided by .06 yield = 3,000,000 price

or 3,000,000 / 180,000= 16.66. In an area with a history of appreciation a lower yield/higher multiplier is acceptable because the come is on the tail end. So with condos I would never pay over 2.5M-2.7M if the rents only support 15K /month.

 

So yes if you put this reasoning to work you are right, this market is bullshit.

[ripley]

xlylophone and native - Thanks for some fresh ideas and input. It's what I was looking for when I started this topic. I've learned a lot from yours and others' posts here.  

What I fail to understand is accusations of "trolling or being in some way dishonest. I asked a simple question and for some tips on what I could do. What about that is suspect?

 

Anyway - further information is that I bought the two condos about 18 yrs ago. One to live in and retire to someday, one to rent out. Strangely enough, I chose the lower floor - not the high floors available at the time. Mine offered more privacy. But that was when the units had panoramic ocean views. (Who knew??) At that time I renovated them completely but, apart from repairs and touch-ups have not done so since. They still look quite  attractive. Things have changed in the bldg., in Thailand and for me personally. The prices I'm asking seem commensurate with others in the bldg. The places are spacious and full of light. - much larger than the new projects coming up all over. 

One common denominator in feedback here is the question of agents. I think I must agree. Mine say the market is "low" and haven't even checked that the place is clean before the few times they've shown it. It's listed on their sites and that's about it. Certainly not their "Life's Ambition""! I stay here only a few months a year, but perhaps I can adapt some of xylophone's tactics and hire someone to handle inquiries for a fee less than what an agent would charge. I'm thinking all of this over. Perhaps I need to arrange to stay here longer and shepherd a deal thru myself - hire a lawyer to help w/ details. Definitely list on TVF!

   Any further ideas are much appreciated. Thanks to jazz dog & others who have obviously given thought to my original question and offered practical approaches. I know there must be something wrong because so few inquiries and viewings despite excellent pictures put up by agents online. Shall try hunting up more agents (!). Perhaps put up some ads with pictures. Someone suggested to me that I'll get more action when the high floors have all sold out here. Personally I'm at a loss - in more ways than one.

 

 

[baansgr]

19 minutes ago, ripley said:

xlylophone and native - Thanks for some fresh ideas and input. It's what I was looking for when I started this topic. I've learned a lot from yours and others' posts here.  

What I fail to understand is accusations of "trolling or being in some way dishonest. I asked a simple question and for some tips on what I could do. What about that is suspect?

 

Anyway - further information is that I bought the two condos about 18 yrs ago. One to live in and retire to someday, one to rent out. Strangely enough, I chose the lower floor - not the high floors available at the time. Mine offered more privacy. But that was when the units had panoramic ocean views. (Who knew??) At that time I renovated them completely but, apart from repairs and touch-ups have not done so since. They still look quite  attractive. Things have changed in the bldg., in Thailand and for me personally. The prices I'm asking seem commensurate with others in the bldg. The places are spacious and full of light. - much larger than the new projects coming up all over. 

One common denominator in feedback here is the question of agents. I think I must agree. Mine say the market is "low" and haven't even checked that the place is clean before the few times they've shown it. It's listed on their sites and that's about it. Certainly not their "Life's Ambition""! I stay here only a few months a year, but perhaps I can adapt some of xylophone's tactics and hire someone to handle inquiries for a fee less than what an agent would charge. I'm thinking all of this over. Perhaps I need to arrange to stay here longer and shepherd a deal thru myself - hire a lawyer to help w/ details. Definitely list on TVF!

   Any further ideas are much appreciated. Thanks to jazz dog & others who have obviously given thought to my original question and offered practical approaches. I know there must be something wrong because so few inquiries and viewings despite excellent pictures put up by agents online. Shall try hunting up more agents (!). Perhaps put up some ads with pictures. Someone suggested to me that I'll get more action when the high floors have all sold out here. Personally I'm at a loss - in more ways than one.

 

 

Sent you a pm 3 or 4 days ago,  

[baansgr]

On 6/25/2018 at 12:46 PM, xylophone said:

I have to agree with this, even though I did buy here at one time, because I would never do so again now I know how things work here.

 

The rule of law here does not favour foreigners and investing in condos/apartments/property where you have very little going for you is risky indeed.

 

Try complaining about noisy neighbours or short-term renters next to your condo and see how far you get, this especially if the development is owned by someone who is "connected".

 

And you may have a nice condo with one of the best views in the world, but you can be built out just like that and have absolutely no say in the matter.

 

Furthermore, buying off the plan is also a risky business as people have found here with the ACE and The Park condos and apartments, whose basic shells stand deteriorating, where there should have been around 1200 units standing, and as for the investors getting their money back, well nothing seems to have happened a few years down the track, despite protestations to the BIB and others in supposed positions of power.

 

As JAZZDOG has said, this is indeed a risky environment in which to invest and nobody knows when the rules and regulations will change, usually to suit the rich and powerful, rather than the everyday farang investor.

 

Sometimes one's last hope is the local lawyer, however with so many of them also beholden to those in power, it's highly unlikely that much will be done.

Due diligence and buying as a home to live in can be rewarding but yes buying as an "investment" nah

20 minutes ago, ripley said:

xlylophone and native - Thanks for some fresh ideas and input. It's what I was looking for when I started this topic. I've learned a lot from yours and others' posts here.  

What I fail to understand is accusations of "trolling or being in some way dishonest. I asked a simple question and for some tips on what I could do. What about that is suspect?

 

Anyway - further information is that I bought the two condos about 18 yrs ago. One to live in and retire to someday, one to rent out. Strangely enough, I chose the lower floor - not the high floors available at the time. Mine offered more privacy. But that was when the units had panoramic ocean views. (Who knew??) At that time I renovated them completely but, apart from repairs and touch-ups have not done so since. They still look quite  attractive. Things have changed in the bldg., in Thailand and for me personally. The prices I'm asking seem commensurate with others in the bldg. The places are spacious and full of light. - much larger than the new projects coming up all over. 

One common denominator in feedback here is the question of agents. I think I must agree. Mine say the market is "low" and haven't even checked that the place is clean before the few times they've shown it. It's listed on their sites and that's about it. Certainly not their "Life's Ambition""! I stay here only a few months a year, but perhaps I can adapt some of xylophone's tactics and hire someone to handle inquiries for a fee less than what an agent would charge. I'm thinking all of this over. Perhaps I need to arrange to stay here longer and shepherd a deal thru myself - hire a lawyer to help w/ details. Definitely list on TVF!

   Any further ideas are much appreciated. Thanks to jazz dog & others who have obviously given thought to my original question and offered practical approaches. I know there must be something wrong because so few inquiries and viewings despite excellent pictures put up by agents online. Shall try hunting up more agents (!). Perhaps put up some ads with pictures. Someone suggested to me that I'll get more action when the high floors have all sold out here. Personally I'm at a loss - in more ways than one.

 

 

Sent you a pm 3 or 4 days ago,  

[Destiny1990]

25 minutes ago, ripley said:

xlylophone and native - Thanks for some fresh ideas and input. It's what I was looking for when I started this topic. I've learned a lot from yours and others' posts here.  

What I fail to understand is accusations of "trolling or being in some way dishonest. I asked a simple question and for some tips on what I could do. What about that is suspect?

 

Anyway - further information is that I bought the two condos about 18 yrs ago. One to live in and retire to someday, one to rent out. Strangely enough, I chose the lower floor - not the high floors available at the time. Mine offered more privacy. But that was when the units had panoramic ocean views. (Who knew??) At that time I renovated them completely but, apart from repairs and touch-ups have not done so since. They still look quite  attractive. Things have changed in the bldg., in Thailand and for me personally. The prices I'm asking seem commensurate with others in the bldg. The places are spacious and full of light. - much larger than the new projects coming up all over. 

One common denominator in feedback here is the question of agents. I think I must agree. Mine say the market is "low" and haven't even checked that the place is clean before the few times they've shown it. It's listed on their sites and that's about it. Certainly not their "Life's Ambition""! I stay here only a few months a year, but perhaps I can adapt some of xylophone's tactics and hire someone to handle inquiries for a fee less than what an agent would charge. I'm thinking all of this over. Perhaps I need to arrange to stay here longer and shepherd a deal thru myself - hire a lawyer to help w/ details. Definitely list on TVF!

   Any further ideas are much appreciated. Thanks to jazz dog & others who have obviously given thought to my original question and offered practical approaches. I know there must be something wrong because so few inquiries and viewings despite excellent pictures put up by agents online. Shall try hunting up more agents (!). Perhaps put up some ads with pictures. Someone suggested to me that I'll get more action when the high floors have all sold out here. Personally I'm at a loss - in more ways than one.

 

 

Imho If u like low floors then better stick with houses.

[xylophone]

25 minutes ago, ripley said:

xlylophone and native - Thanks for some fresh ideas and input. It's what I was looking for when I started this topic. I've learned a lot from yours and others' posts here.  

 

25 minutes ago, ripley said:

Any further ideas are much appreciated.

Thank you for your feedback ripley, something which is always appreciated.

 

Something else to consider, but carefully so...……………..there are those folk who browse sites/ads for "bargains" and something which can work is advertising your condo under a heading such as "Urgent sale needed" or "Leaving soon, make an offer".

 

Now you have to pitch the price at a reasonable level, but a little lower than others similar and have worked out your minimum price, so that you choose a careful balance, this because some will want to make silly offers BUT if it is a nice unit and the prospective buyer is there, and likes what they see then you have grounds for negotiation.

 

Getting a prospective buyer at the condo is a major part of the battle.

[baansgr]

51 minutes ago, xylophone said:

 

Thank you for your feedback ripley, something which is always appreciated.

 

Something else to consider, but carefully so...……………..there are those folk who browse sites/ads for "bargains" and something which can work is advertising your condo under a heading such as "Urgent sale needed" or "Leaving soon, make an offer".

 

Now you have to pitch the price at a reasonable level, but a little lower than others similar and have worked out your minimum price, so that you choose a careful balance, this because some will want to make silly offers BUT if it is a nice unit and the prospective buyer is there, and likes what they see then you have grounds for negotiation.

 

Getting a prospective buyer at the condo is a major part of the battle.

It's worth a try and agree but from my experience you get the lowballer idiots as they think you are desperate to sell. Little bit worried  is the op committed? I sent him a pm 4 days ago as have numerous friends that are freelance selling condos in jomtien but didn't get a reply. Low commission, do everything at land office and have many SE Asian clients buying

[Destiny1990]

7 minutes ago, baansgr said:

It's worth a try and agree but from my experience you get the lowballer idiots as they think you are desperate to sell. Little bit worried  is the op committed? I sent him a pm 4 days ago as have numerous friends that are freelance selling condos in jomtien but didn't get a reply. Low commission, do everything at land office and have many SE Asian clients buying

Most likely he doesn’t reply to u because his story is not sincere he probably owns nothing and has therefore nothing to sell..

[JAZZDOG]

A couple takes from Ripley's story. First after 18 years he appears to have experienced little or no appreciation. He didn't state the general condition of the project but it is aged. He has no view and the idea of waiting for units with views to sell off is a mary-go-round. Don't know what he paid but like poker that was more than a few hands ago, forget, it's irrelevant. If he is at retirement age and not comfortable with higher risk investments and counting on these funds for retirement it may serve him well to just rent out both at a price that would keep renters there. In retirement often times cashflow beats cash. Second he takes a haircut and fire sales. Never good but you move on to something that may have an upside. Third he might sell and hold the paper. I don't know anything about farang underwriting here but that my be an option. Also not aware if there are buyers brokers her who exclusively represent and are paid by buyers. Contacting one of them with what you have and they may have a client. Good luck man, I am sure there are many here than can relate to your situation.

[Destiny1990]

Well if ever its true which i doubt then it either view talay one or viewtalay 2..

[JAZZDOG]

9 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Well if ever its true which i doubt then it either view talay one or viewtalay 2..

I would never consider either one as a residence or investment. Actually VT #6 would be at the top of my list. Great location, established and already taken the "NEW" hit. Always look for the cheapest house in a nice neighborhood. Relatively few for sale or rent= high demand. Even if less than 30 days prevails in condos this is one that I believe would do well monthly during the season and then a 6 month term to someone in the low season. If you could buy at 3.5M and even offered 25K/month on annual this would be a sold performer. Would invest here way before the newer towers across the street that are 30m/2 closets. And like I said you would have a unit in a building with listings up to 25M.

[Destiny1990]

19 minutes ago, JAZZDOG said:

I would never consider either one as a residence or investment. Actually VT #6 would be at the top of my list. Great location, established and already taken the "NEW" hit. Always look for the cheapest house in a nice neighborhood. Relatively few for sale or rent= high demand. Even if less than 30 days prevails in condos this is one that I believe would do well monthly during the season and then a 6 month term to someone in the low season. If you could buy at 3.5M and even offered 25K/month on annual this would be a sold performer. Would invest here way before the newer towers across the street that are 30m/2 closets. And like I said you would have a unit in a building with listings up to 25M.

Yes but he said he bought 18 years ago then i think  the only choice was viewtalay 1&2.

About viewtalay 6 yes nice location but its build besides the mall and carpark so most units that side got poor views and the other side its very likely there come another high rise so they be blocked soon also..

they do lots of daily and weekly deals there in that building its popular surely 

 

[JAZZDOG]

15 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

Yes but he said he bought 18 years ago then i think  the only choice was viewtalay 1&2.

About viewtalay 6 yes nice location but its build besides the mall and carpark so most units that side got poor views and the other side its very likely there come another high rise so they be blocked soon also..

they do lots of daily and weekly deals there in that building its popular surely 

 

Actually I don't mind the side facing Festival as long as it's high and closer to beach road. The other side is hot as hell most of the day. Deal is people tend to hang on to them and the ones on the market are either overpriced or really the most undesirable. Only condo project I have found that might work for me. 48m/2 is huge difference over 28-32m/2. If you could buy a block of say three or four side by side that would be sweet but that ain't happening.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2018 by JAZZDOG
typo

[scubascuba3]

What I fail to understand is accusations of "trolling or being in some way dishonest. I asked a simple question and for some tips on what I could do. What about that is suspect?
 

There is a lot of reverse trolling here by BMs who are abnormally suspicious.

You still haven't told us the condo name and size? Why the big secret if you're looking for help?

[Destiny1990]

He trolling several guys have send him pm’s for to help with his units he never replies because  he is rubbish.

[KittenKong]

Yes but he said he bought 18 years ago then i think the only choice was viewtalay 1&2.

There were many other buildings available at that time, including most of the better buildings in town.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

There were many other buildings available at that time, including most of the better buildings in town.

Just curious, but I thought that most condos in Jomtien (or even Pattaya) were less than 20 years old.

Could you please give the name of some of older ones ? and some of "the better buildings" ?

[baansgr]

4 minutes ago, Pattaya46 said:

Just curious, but I thought that most condos in Jomtien (or even Pattaya) were less than 20 years old.

Could you please give the name of some of older ones ? and some of "the better buildings" ?

Condochain, Paradise, Baan Suan Lalana, Majestic, Anket, Jomtien Beach and a few more

[KittenKong]

I would add the Complex, the Grand, Metro, the Plaza and, if you include Pratumnak, the Royal Cliff Garden and several others down by the beach. And several more down Na Jomtien. More again in Wong Amat, though the old ones have now got so many new ones nearby that you can hardly see the sky from them.

[Halfaboy]

Silver Beach Condominium, Park Beach Condominium, Markland Condo, Center Condo....

[Destiny1990]

2 hours ago, baansgr said:

Condochain, Paradise, Baan Suan Lalana, Majestic, Anket, Jomtien Beach and a few more

Sorry but all of those are shitty places nowadays ?

but he mentioned Jomtien so I thought about view talay one.. anyway its a troll post..

Edited June 28, 2018 by Destiny1990

[Destiny1990]

1 hour ago, Halfaboy said:

Silver Beach Condominium, Park Beach Condominium, Markland Condo, Center Condo....

Silver beach is still a nice condo 

[scubascuba3]

Sorry but all of those are shitty places nowadays [emoji51]
but he mentioned Jomtien so I thought about view talay one.. anyway its a troll post..

Jomtien Beach condo although old (15 years+) is well maintained, can't say that about a lot of places