Rising water hamper efforts to rescue boys missing in Chiang Rai cave

[Jingthing]

18 minutes ago, toolpush said:

Lack of food is not an problem yet. Generally, a person can live without food for up to 30 or 40 days. The water in the cave is probably drinkable and shelter isn't really an issue......

 

Yes objectively you're right.

But they clearly went in there very poorly equipped. 

Bad things happened with the flooding at the very least. 

The water continues to rise and the current is strong. 

It's pitch black. 

They'd certainly be weakened by lack of food assuming they can get water which is a fair assumption.

What I'm getting at is the PSYCHOLOGY of the situation. Being there for days, no sign of help, it's entirely possible they haven't made the wisest choices in response to all that.

Also they could have made good choices but then changing water conditions could reveal they might have fled to the wrong place. 

Sorry, but I'm not optimistic. So much that could have gone wrong in those conditions. Doesn't seem like good odds.

Hoping of course. 

Edited June 27, 2018 by Jingthing

[GTO69]

6 hours ago, johng said:

Why does the map show the cave at "Pattaya Beach" ? ?

It's the name given at that spot inside the cave.

 

[wcoast]

Not sure if it's allowed in TV, but the Facebook page:
Love Mae Sai
Is a local page dedicated to sports, and has many current postings, updates and videos of this crisis.
In Thai of course.

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[chrisinth]

10 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

 

Yes objectively you're right.

But they clearly went in there very poorly equipped. 

Bad things happened with the flooding at the very least. 

The water continues to rise and the current is strong. 

It's pitch black. 

They'd certainly be weakened by lack of food assuming they can get water which is a fair assumption.

What I'm getting at is the PSYCHOLOGY of the situation. Being there for days, no sign of help, it's entirely possible they haven't made the wisest choices in response to all that.

Also they could have made good choices but then changing water conditions could reveal they might have fled to the wrong place. 

Sorry, but I'm not optimistic. So much that could have gone wrong in those conditions. Doesn't seem like good odds.

Hoping of course. 

The biggest problem that I keep thinking about is hypothermia. It will be cold inside the cave complex especially with that amount of running water. It only takes a drop of 2 C (from 37 C to 35 C) to the body core temperature before hypothermia sets in. I am guessing that warm clothing wasn't brought with them. Hopefully they will be aware of this and start huddling, sharing body heat.

 

Unlike you GT, I am remaining optimistic on the outcome of this, based on the hope that the rescue teams will get the break they have been waiting for very soon.

[Jingthing]

I hope I'm wrong. 

[chickenslegs]

59 minutes ago, wcoast said:

Myself I'm struggling to understand why with 95% of the cave having been explored by the divers already the last kilometer is taking a day to search.

 

Lots of conflicting information here and in press reports, but I haven't read anything about 95% of the cave having been explored by the divers. Are you sure this is correct? (link?)

 

 

[wcoast]

Lots of conflicting information here and in press reports, but I haven't read anything about 95% of the cave having been explored by the divers. Are you sure this is correct? (link?)
 
 

We'll they made it to Pattaya beach where they expected to find the children, which is pretty much near the end of the tunnel.

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[fantom]

Has any listening equipment been set up? This is standard in mining rescue, and is very sophisticated. Sound travels well through rock and even water when conditions are suitable.

As far as can be ascertained no contact has been made with the boys.

[sanemax]

28 minutes ago, wcoast said:

We'll they made it to Pattaya beach where they expected to find the children, which is pretty much near the end of the tunnel.

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[Cake Monster]

If the water is not controlled, there will be a very bad outcome to the rescue of these kids and their helper.

The water will induce Hypothermia, as it will be water that is cold ( at around 20 Deg C ), at best.

In my youth, I did a load of Potholing in the UK, and the cold water was the worst thing you can imagine, and that was with the proper protective clothing Etc

These people have non of that.

I really hope that I will be wrong, but the prognosis is not good.

[cardinalblue]

More urgency in rescue than recovery operations as Kings canyon was - the safety of the rescuers...

lack of air , drowning, hypothermia....any other hazards?

 

Is the water safe to drink which is much more important than food?

 

[Belzybob]

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Larger version of the survey map shown in the top right corner. 'Pattaya Beach' is a long way from being the end.

[upu2]

3 minutes ago, cardinalblue said:

More urgency in rescue than recovery operations as Kings canyon was - the safety of the rescuers...

lack of air , drowning, hypothermia....any other hazards?

 

Is the water safe to drink which is much more important than food?

 

THe situation they are in would seem to dictate that they drink the water. When it is a choice of drink or die the options are limited

[Krataiboy]

My Thai stepdaughter has just told me some of her more gullible fellow citizens believe the football team's plight is an act of retribution by the spirit of a legendary Myanmar Princess.

 

To them, the ten kilometer cave network as a special, sacred place. The undulating layout is said to resemble the body shape of the young pregnant Princess who died, along with her young lover, after being pursued into its murky depths by palace guards.

 

Her spirit is said to have haunted the place ever since, thirsting for revenge. Hence the flock of mediums and other wackos cluttering the area. Let's just hope they don't hamper the ongoing rescue effort.

[Wake Up]

To all those people helping to find these young men and their coach we salute you. A lot of good people exist  in this world.  Tough job emotionally and physically.  To the families we wish your sons and the coach come home with you alive and well. 

[sanemax]

30 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

To all those people helping to find these young men and their coach we salute you. A lot of good people exist  in this world.  Tough job emotionally and physically.  To the families we wish your sons and the coach come home with you alive and well. 

Although they probably will not be reading it on TV , maybe you could ask Jingthing to go and tell them personally ?

[Golden Triangle]

I think it is time for some realism to set in here, I, like everyone else wants a resounding success and outcome to this unfolding tragedy, alas I fear that will not be the case, too much time has passed now and the whole group were ill prepared or equipped for a long stint under ground.

 

If they had rations with them then hopefully they will have been smart enough to limit the use of them and prepare for the long haul, no doubt they all had phones with them, if that is the case keep all phones off bar one until the battery is exhausted before switching on another, that way they would have light (not a lot) but better than pitch black, and lastly, find somewhere above water level, huddle together for heat and only drink sparingly.

 

Fingers crossed for their safe return.

[AlphMichaels]

11 hours ago, ezzra said:

One adult leader and 12 teens went cave explorations without any preparations whatsoever, it seems that they intended to go deep and not only a quick look,

hopefully they will be found safe and sound, and that no one will pay with their lives for the basic knowledge that if you're about to do deep cave explorations you better be prepared and ready...

I've done cave dives in Florida and Mexico before and they're intense.  I'm guessing the local guys they've pulled in have ZERO experience.  Compact masks, "short stiffs", safety reels, and stage markers.  You get into small spaces where you can barely fit-push through tank and gear (especially staged tanks), you get spooked.   

 

Guessing these guys have never done this before and time is running out.  

 

This cave and every other in country should be closed every rainy season without hesitation.  

 

All my hopes for a successful end result.

[Golden Triangle]

2 minutes ago, AlphMichaels said:

I've done cave dives in Florida and Mexico before and they're intense.  I'm guessing the local guys they've pulled in have ZERO experience.  Compact masks, "short stiffs", safety reels, and stage markers.  You get into small spaces where you can barely fit-push through tank and gear (especially staged tanks), you get spooked.   

 

Guessing these guys have never done this before and time is running out.  

 

This cave and every other in country should be closed every rainy season without hesitation.  

 

All my hopes for a successful end result.

My first response on this forum was back on page 1 of whatever is the original thread, something about the film The Descent, I watched that movie and nearly crapped myself, I would not wanna be stuck underground ever ?

[snoop1130]

Royally sponsored food aids rescue mission

By The Nation

 

 

HM King Maha Vajiralongkorn has had a kitchen set up at a forest park in Chiang Rai province to serve free food to officials trying to rescue 12 teenage football players and their assistant coach, who are missing since last Saturday after visiting the park’s Tham Luang Cave.

 

More than 400 volunteers have turned up to prepare and distribute food. 

 

Family members of the missing and reporters covering updates at the site can also receive food and water from the royally sponsored kitchen. 

 

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/national/30348761

 

-- © Copyright The Nation 2018-6-27

[Jingthing]

They were planning a same afternoon in and out. No way would they have food rations with them. 

[stevenl]

49 minutes ago, AlphMichaels said:

I've done cave dives in Florida and Mexico before and they're intense.  I'm guessing the local guys they've pulled in have ZERO experience.  Compact masks, "short stiffs", safety reels, and stage markers.  You get into small spaces where you can barely fit-push through tank and gear (especially staged tanks), you get spooked.   

 

Guessing these guys have never done this before and time is running out.  

 

This cave and every other in country should be closed every rainy season without hesitation.  

 

All my hopes for a successful end result.

Why do you guess they haven't done this before? There are some really experienced cave divers in Thailand.

[AlphMichaels]

My first cave dive (after adder training) was Bonnet Spring in the Suwanee River.  I got to the tight angling down 1-way route route and couldn't.   Finally did it next day and still spooked.   

[Wilsonandson]

 

[steve73]

This is not your typical "cave dive".  These passages are reasonably large and can normally be walked - although some of the maps I've seen suggest there are some boulder chokes in places where it might be a bit of a squeeze.  Once the rains start and the water volume in the stream-way increases, these chokes are likely to restrict the flow and cause the water to back up and flood.  The water will be probably thick with mud & silt and offer no visibility whatsoever.  Not easy even for a very experienced cave diver to get around, and very dangerous for your typical open water trained Thai navy "seal".

[KiwiKiwi]

Bucket of cold water time: Lots and lots of nice words spoken, but here's the thing(s).

 

1. The lads have been down there for 4 days.

2. Pumps have not done the job some bright spark thought they would do.

3. Heavy rains at this time of year will not help.

4. It seems likely they do not have food, and drinkable water may not be available.

5. Let's be honest, the Thai track record of success with emergencies is not wonderful, and they do suffer from the 'too many cooks spoil the broth' syndrome. Enthusiasm, chaos and an obvious lack of coordination are no substitutes for skill and experience.

6. The disjoint between the level of Thai ability and the reality may well prove to be a major drawback at a time when major drawbacks ought to be unwelcome. Vide the car in the ravine incident in USA and the grandiose claims about 'Thais would be able to get the bodies out in 12 hours if it happened in Thailand' nonsense.

 

On the plus side, I see that some UK emergency teams have been flown in, but - the lads have been down there for 4 days.

 

As far as I can see, it's not looking very good; setting aside the laudable wishful thinking and Pollyanna-ism, an unrealistic optimism and positive thinking are unlikely to be of huge benefit right now. The parents could probably benefit from some realism rather than fantasy.

 

 

[Tug]

Poor kids still hoping

[Jingthing]

Well, yes, but there is a good chance that water is available, even if nasty water. 

[bannork]

Expect the worst but hope for the best.

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Well, yes, but there is a good chance that water is available, even if nasty water. 

And the silt and mud would settle in a container , giving them fresh water to drink