Copying with a straight face

[Brunolem]

What many East Asian populations have in common is a widespread tendency for copying and for avoiding to lose face.

 

Copying is a bit like corruption, it infiltrates all levels of society, going from the industrial pirating of famous international brands or copyrights, to members of small communities keeping an eye on what their neighbors are doing and then doing the same.

 

Years ago, I remember walking along some avenue in Bangkok and seeing six (6) opticle shops next to each other.

 

In Pattaya and other Thai tourist traps, bars are lined up by the hundreds...not to mention the taxis forming a long train rolling along Beach Road and Second Road, without a locomotive.

 

Upcountry, farmers are competing with each other, offering on the market the same products in ever increasing quantities, at an ever decreasing price.

 

On a larger scale, Chinese factories are busy churning out almost any product one can think of, generally copied from a similar Western product, and sold at a much lower price, because of a much lower quality.

 

The bumper sticker "I am not a complete idiot, some parts are missing" could be replaced by "this is not a complete copy, some (essential yet too costly) parts are missing".

 

Further North, things are more subtle even though Samsung smartphones, for example, share a lot in common with Apple smartphones, drawing the ire of the latter company from time to time.

 

This widespread culture of copying certainly does not help creativity, something seriously lacking in East Asia, and this doesn't bode well for the future if, as many observers think, this part of the world is going to take the lead while the West keeps on declining and falling into decadence.

 

Where will innovation come from?

 

As for the loss of face, it appears that the same people who wouldn't ask for the advice of a foreigner (immediate loss of face), have no trouble to reverse engineer whatever product this foreigner has created (no loss of face here)...loss of face only exists at an individual level, not at a group level...

[tifino]

having (37 years back)  first experienced this 'pirating' phenonema

 - visiting stalls down in Penang...

I first heard their pride in their selling of 'Original Copies' 

 

 

...the pirating of 'everything' is a self evolving replication of it's former self - Ad Infinitum

[CeeGee]

I remember in the Grand Bazaar Istanbul many years ago on buying a watch,told  not a copy,but genuine  imitation.Still trying to work that one out.

At the same time, the seller noticing I was wearing the latest edition SWATCH, asked, if he could borrow it for one hour and if he could I could have any watch on his stall for free.Draw your own conclusions as to why he wanted to "borrow" it.

Edited July 2, 2018 by CeeGee

[Berkshire]

You've made some good points OP...the exception being your obsession with the face thing.  That has nothing to do with the problems you've raised.  It's more about basic capitalism.  If an entrepreneur is going to risk his/her limited resources on a business venture, should it be on a brand new but unproven idea, or just copy what works?  This dilemma has been going on for ages and it's the same in the west as it is in Thailand.  It's more pronounced in Thailand as there are more entrepreneurs here.  Most Americans work for somebody because one can make a good living doing so.  Not so much in Thailand.

[sammieuk1]

I need a copy of a woman that never says no if you see one.

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

You've made some good points OP...the exception being your obsession with the face thing.  That has nothing to do with the problems you've raised.  It's more about basic capitalism.  

Obsession?

 

My point is:

 

- if an Asian student is caught copying on his neighbor during an exam, he loses face

 

but...

 

- if a group of Asian workers openly copies a Western product to make a living out of it, these workers don't lose face

 

Yet, in both cases these people are stealing knowledge from others...

 

Obviously, losing face has nothing to do with capitalism (not my point,), yet innovation does.

 

Basic capitalism includes innovation, and capitalism wouldn't go very far if everyone was waiting for someone else to innovate!

 

Innovation has been thriving in the West because copying is severely restricted, thanks to patents, copyrights and so on.

 

But in Eastern Asia, copying is almost encouraged, thus smothering innovation...why bother and take risks when others will do it?

[kingstonkid]

17 hours ago, CeeGee said:

I remember in the Grand Bazaar Istanbul many years ago on buying a watch,told  not a copy,but genuine  imitation.Still trying to work that one out.

At the same time, the seller noticing I was wearing the latest edition SWATCH, asked, if he could borrow it for one hour and if he could I could have any watch on his stall for free.Draw your own conclusions as to why he wanted to "borrow" it.

You can still get genuine imitation just go to pat pong.  Genuine imitation Rolex of mont blanc pen.  They haven't figured out how to copy a fit bit yet or apple but I am sure it is coming LOL

 

OH yeah and then there are the GENUINE imitation girls LOL

 

[Berkshire]

3 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Obsession?

 

My point is:

 

- if an Asian student is caught copying on his neighbor during an exam, he loses face

 

but...

 

- if a group of Asian workers openly copies a Western product to make a living out of it, these workers don't lose face

 

Yet, in both cases these people are stealing knowledge from others...

 

Obviously, losing face has nothing to do with capitalism (not my point,), yet innovation does.

 

Basic capitalism includes innovation, and capitalism wouldn't go very far if everyone was waiting for someone else to innovate!

 

Innovation has been thriving in the West because copying is severely restricted, thanks to patents, copyrights and so on.

 

But in Eastern Asia, copying is almost encouraged, thus smothering innovation...why bother and take risks when others will do it?

I don't know where you get your information.  These "group of Asian workers" who are stealing Apple technology or copying Nike brand apparels aren't going to be doing it out in the open.  So who knows if they're losing face.  My point is why are you even bringing up this face thing because it has nothing to do with the topic. 

 

As to the root of the problem, it's much more complex than you think.  In America, someone with an innovative idea has a much better chance of being rewarded than say, someone in China, as it has to do with the system in place.  China is a massive bureaucracy that, in your words, smother innovation.  But they are Socialists, so it's more about group success than the individual.  It's not that copying is encouraged, but rather, taking risk is discouraged.

 

Lastly, I'm not sure if innovation is really "thriving in the west," unless you consider Facebook and Uber huge social progress.  There is tons of money being made as the inequality gap widens.  But as for real innovation....not so sure.        

[hansnl]

1 hour ago, sammieuk1 said:

I need a copy of a woman that never says no if you see one.

I need one that does that and doesn't nag......

[JRinPDX]

Innovation requires critical thinking and that isn't allowed culturally because it causes loss of face.  Hammered in from birth, thus preserving the hierarchy of power via collective mindset.

[CLW]

I can remember there was a Chinese saying the a copy honors the inventor as his product is so good worth making a copy of it.
Could be propaganda BS as well.

[Suradit69]

22 hours ago, Brunolem said:

What many East Asian populations have in common is a widespread tendency for copying and for avoiding to lose face.

The Germans started two world wars in response to massive loss of face. In America hardly a week goes by without someone with a gun shooting up a school or office or business in retaliation for some perceived loss of face. Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan launched mini-wars to divert attention from situations at home that were eroding their public face. A major clown in DC spends half his time tweeting childish name-calling aimed at anyone who has the temerity to criticize him and attempt to cause him a loss of face,

 

During the colonial period, and before,  westerners simply hijacked cultural artifacts wholesale from Asia, Africa and the middle east as well as expropriating natural resources while reducing the native populations to slave labor. They stole the "secrets" required for everything from silk making to tea production to the techniques used in the production of blue and white porcelain  "china" as well as laying claim to discoveries in science and mathematics that were Asian or first developed in Islamic countries.

 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by Suradit69

[koo]

"

Years ago, I remember walking along some avenue in Bangkok and seeing six (6) opticle shops next to each other.

 

In Pattaya and other Thai tourist traps, bars are lined up by the hundreds...not to mention the taxis forming a long train rolling along Beach Road and Second Road, without a locomotive.

 

Upcountry, farmers are competing with each other, offering on the market the same products in ever increasing quantities, at an ever decreasing price."

 

This is something I have always been wondering also. All the vendors of one product or product group packed together. You go to the market and there are all the apple stalls next to each other. One morning a new stall is free, and the new vendor looks the there are 8 guys selling apples, and, of course he starts selling apples as well.  Why does he not consider oranges instead? It is a lose-lose pricing game when all the vendors have the same item for sale...

[timendres]

I think if one looks at the number of patents coming out of China these days, they will see that things are changing. The West is still benefitting from our educational approach that encourages creativity and sees failure as educational. But the rest of the world will catch up. As we see, the Internet has shrunk the world, and knowledge is moving across borders very rapidly. The education process itself is soon to transform worldwide. Eastern educational establishments will need to adapt, or become irrelevant.

 

As for copies? They serve their purpose, and I for one purchase them on occasion.

[Lacessit]

There's nothing wrong with copying good stuff, and improving on it. The Japanese have been quite good at this - the first Toyota Crown engine was a straight copy of the Mercedes in-line six.

Where they really took off in manufacturing was by importing an American statistician, W. Edwards Deming, and applying his teachings on quality control. In about a decade, Americans were abandoning their fault-ridden behemoths, and buying economical and reliable Japanese vehicles.

The caravan moves on. Now the Koreans talk about the lazy Japanese. And the Chinese are coming.

 

 

[Brunolem]

2 hours ago, Berkshire said:

 

Lastly, I'm not sure if innovation is really "thriving in the west," unless you consider Facebook and Uber huge social progress.  There is tons of money being made as the inequality gap widens.  But as for real innovation....not so sure.        

 With "thriving", I used "has been" and not "is", but I thought that "was" was a bit too strong, at least for now.

 

Indeed, innovation is less and less useful (yet still real) because of the almost complete financialization of Western economies, especially in the US: short term profit only matters!

 

Thus, instead of coming up with, say, a new vaccine, big pharma comes up with botox...an innovation certainly, but probably not a very useful one.

 

More generally, the most brilliant minds, who used to be involved in fundamental research, are now following the sirens of big money, wasting their intelligence in concocting video games or algorithms to help Wall Street plunder what's left of the dying real economy.

 

Having said that, while the Chinese may be hampered by their political system, it is not the case for, say, the Japanese or the South Koreans.

Yet, the latter have specialized into improving products originating in the West, rather than innovating themselves.

There was a lot of fuss in the early 80s because finally, thanks to Akio Morita, founder of Sony, Japan had come up with an original product: the walkman!

Since then...

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Brunolem said:

There was a lot of fuss in the early 80s because finally, thanks to Akio Morita, founder of Sony, Japan had come up with an original product: the walkman!

Since then...

Since then Steve Jobs put 1,000 songs on an iPod.

 

Innovation is alive and well in the computing industry, just look at the mobile 'phone in your hand.

[The Theory]

6 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

I need a copy of a woman that never says no if you see one.

Look in Nana

[Lacessit]

39 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Since then Steve Jobs put 1,000 songs on an iPod.

 

Innovation is alive and well in the computing industry, just look at the mobile 'phone in your hand.

And renewable energy. The combination of solar power and the capability to store in Powerwall lithium batteries has every power distribution company quaking in their boots. It's a bit like the first computers - cost and size is shrinking all the time.

There was a time when isolated farms had to rely on a generator and a shed full of lead-acid batteries. Not any more.

[Lacessit]

9 minutes ago, The Theory said:

Look in Nana

Plenty of blow-up dolls in the adult shops. I understand they were developed by the Japanese for lonely crewmen on long voyages.

[elgenon]

That is a well known business rule. If you see a successful business, open a similar one next door.

[maximillian]

3 hours ago, koo said:

"

Years ago, I remember walking along some avenue in Bangkok and seeing six (6) opticle shops next to each other.

 

In Pattaya and other Thai tourist traps, bars are lined up by the hundreds...not to mention the taxis forming a long train rolling along Beach Road and Second Road, without a locomotive.

 

Upcountry, farmers are competing with each other, offering on the market the same products in ever increasing quantities, at an ever decreasing price."

 

This is something I have always been wondering also. All the vendors of one product or product group packed together. You go to the market and there are all the apple stalls next to each other. One morning a new stall is free, and the new vendor looks the there are 8 guys selling apples, and, of course he starts selling apples as well.  Why does he not consider oranges instead? It is a lose-lose pricing game when all the vendors have the same item for sale...

 

They even promote the idea. Did you ever see the OTOP sign ? 

It translates into: One Tambon One Product.  Not joking.

[CLW]

 
They even promote the idea. Did you ever see the OTOP sign ? 
It translates into: One Tambon One Product.  Not joking.

Well, actually I welcome the idea of Otop. Might be same product but different area and also slightly different in appearance, taste, etc.
Wasn't it in the western world some centuries ago. Each town had it's butcher, restaurant, brewery. Now we are left with franchise and industrial mass products.

That's why I love Thailand.

[connda]

5 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Obsession?

 

My point is:

 

- if an Asian student is caught copying on his neighbor during an exam, he loses face

 

but...

 

- if a group of Asian workers openly copies a Western product to make a living out of it, these workers don't lose face

 

Yet, in both cases these people are stealing knowledge from others...

 

Obviously, losing face has nothing to do with capitalism (not my point,), yet innovation does.

 

Basic capitalism includes innovation, and capitalism wouldn't go very far if everyone was waiting for someone else to innovate!

 

Innovation has been thriving in the West because copying is severely restricted, thanks to patents, copyrights and so on.

 

But in Eastern Asia, copying is almost encouraged, thus smothering innovation...why bother and take risks when others will do it?

Think of high quality pirated goods as Applied Innovation, however they use a slightly different skill set, like reverse-engineering.  Then you can spend the rest of the night discussing Moral Relativism over shots of Johnney Walker Black (if it really is JWB)......hummmmm?   ?

[digger70]

6 hours ago, kingstonkid said:

You can still get genuine imitation just go to pat pong.  Genuine imitation Rolex of mont blanc pen.  They haven't figured out how to copy a fit bit yet or apple but I am sure it is coming LOL

 

OH yeah and then there are the GENUINE imitation girls LOL

 

Yea they call the Lady Boys    ?

[exemplary21]

You're fooling yourself, Bruno, and perhaps a few others equally as ignorant...

[bluesofa]

7 hours ago, hansnl said:

I need one that does that and doesn't nag......

Surely you just press 'mute' on the remote?

 

[thaiguzzi]

9 hours ago, sammieuk1 said:

I need a copy of a woman that never says no if you see one.

Not met my missus yet then?

[bbq2]

What a load of cobblers thus thread premise is. When the first caveman made a spear and a copie made another it was called progress. When Benz started his car manufacturing and thousands others copied it changed the world. Those lower in the economic and development ladder always mimiced those higher up since people grouped together collectively. There is no difference today. USA might be leading developer of technology today but it was once a copier.

Get over it.

[canuckamuck]

Cheap Chinese copies have save me a fortune over the years. Sure some things are total garbage, but usually the price of a Chinese produced item is low enough that you don't mind so much to throw it away and get another when it fails. And some cheap Chinese stuff I bought performs and lasts just the same as the original. 

Of course this doesn't help the innovators of the original product, but it is a version of supply and demand. Just look at the obscene profits of the pharmaceutical industry. Those folks have no souls. There is a place for patent laws and proprietary protections, but in many cases it does not serve humanity in the way it pretends to do.