AdamBernau Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 For anybody who has ever had to handle a full on panicking diver, it's a pretty obvious choice to sedate the guys. I always thought tying up their arms and legs, fitting them with a commercial diving helmet or lacking those at least a full-face mask plus a regular helmet, then puncturing their ear drums would be the best way to go. Better having to transport a fragile package than having to literally fight for your as well as their life whilst trying to get them out. Sedation is not the same as general anesthesia, which would require the patient to be ventilated and monitored. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spidermike007 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Drugs can be a very good thing, when used properly. I personally think some of the kids I run into should be given more drugs. Especially the very young ones on the 14 hour flights, who are out of control. Half a xanax and 300 people have a pleasant flight. Case solved. Totally justifiable with the rescue, and anyone who says otherwise is either very ignorant, very soft, or very cowed into submission by fear of being politically incorrect. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansnl Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, harrry said: The ex vet was the diving partner of the Australian doctor. As they had worked together on several rescues I would think it very reasonable that they worked on this as Harris needed someone he knew and could rely on who also knew how each other worked and reacted. Vets are animal doctors. I presume they know something about medicine then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metisdead Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 An off topic post about the 2006 Olympics has been removed. A troll post and a reply was removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I participated in an extensive discussion about this in a closed thread in which I opined that sedation would have been necessary for a successful extraction, and as I remember it was poo pooed for my opinion. It's nice to be vindicated. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 52 minutes ago, AdamBernau said: For anybody who has ever had to handle a full on panicking diver, it's a pretty obvious choice to sedate the guys. I always thought tying up their arms and legs, fitting them with a commercial diving helmet or lacking those at least a full-face mask plus a regular helmet, then puncturing their ear drums would be the best way to go. Better having to transport a fragile package than having to literally fight for your as well as their life whilst trying to get them out. Sedation is not the same as general anesthesia, which would require the patient to be ventilated and monitored. It wasn't obvious to the posters that were saying sedation wasn't needed, when we were discussing it before the rescue started. I have no idea why you think it necessary to puncture their eardrums though. I wasn't aware that any of the dives were deep enough to rupture ear drums. However, you may be right and just not admitted yet. Punctured ear drums do mend though, so not that big a deal if done while they were sedated. A GA induces paralysis of the lungs, so obviously wouldn't have been used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smileydude Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I did read that the first 2 boys regained full consciousness upon arrival at the cave exit but the third boy remained unconscious until arriving at the hospital so I'm not surprised about the revelations that they were heavily sedated. The 3rd boy's not waking up must have caused quite a bit of concern but luckily everything ended well. It was a great decision on part of the doctors and rescue team. I would have opted to be knocked out if in such a situation but then again I'm claustrophobic so no chance of me getting into a cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PEE TEE Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I would have thought i was common practice in a case like this .imagine the boys if they were not sedated all it needs is one to panic the end result would have not been the same . terrific jobs to them heroes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tandor Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 hours ago, Topdoc said: Well, the heavy sedation worked didn't it. Mission accomplished successfully. Congratulations again to the rescue team! ..why say 'he admitted'..to me implies he was lying before or holding back the truth..Im quite sure they freely stated the information..once again poor reporting...IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DM07 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 In my personal opinion, they could have chopped them into tiny pieces and had them re- assembled, once they were out of the cage! As long as it worked, everybody got out and not more lives were lost, I guess you have to say, the right deccission was made! End of! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake Up Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Personally I would want to be heavily sedated and if one of those kids was my boy then I would want him heavily sedated. IMO heavily sedating the kids and coach given the risks of the rescue was brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FitnessHealthTravel Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Hence the extended Hospital visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pattaya1234was Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 I think you will find that Dr Harris was asked for by the British guys-presumably because they had worked together on a previous mission 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamBernau Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 31 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said: It wasn't obvious to the posters that were saying sedation wasn't needed, when we were discussing it before the rescue started. I have no idea why you think it necessary to puncture their eardrums though. I wasn't aware that any of the dives were deep enough to rupture ear drums. However, you may be right and just not admitted yet. Punctured ear drums do mend though, so not that big a deal if done while they were sedated. A GA induces paralysis of the lungs, so obviously wouldn't have been used. The posters that were saying sedation was not necessary most likely are not divers or dive instructors, so they would hardly undertsand what it is like to have somebody panicking underwater, trying to bolt to wherever they think the surface is, basically fighting (at least in their mind) for their life. In an open water scenario very often the only thing you can do is try to slow their ascent down and try to make sure their airways are open, so they avoid a pulmonary barotrauma, especially arterial gas embolism. Sometimes you may need to let them go, so you can still help them after they reached the surface, instead of someone else having to deal with two casualties. The shallower you are, the greater the volume of gas in a flexible or partially open container is affected. Going from 0 - 10 meters pressure doubles from 1 ata to 2 ata (sea water, little a less in fresh water) and volume halves. Every 10 meters adds another 1 ata, so to half the volume again you would need to descent to 30 meters. Breathing paralysis, even just partially, would therefore not only mean possibly asphyxiation, but also increase the risk of pulmonary barotrauma. I do not know about the maximum depth they encountered during the dives, but just a little as 2 -3 meters result in pain and aural barotrauma if they failed to equalize their ears, which again would make them more prone to panic. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catman20 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 i got some Thai girl singing praises about the Thai navy seals and what a big part they played in the rescue, ? most of the news seems to be for the Brits and the ozzys, how big was the part of the Thai navy seals ? id love to shut her up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 My guess is the sedation is about the same as when the doctor shoves that huge long tube in your backside and pushes it up through your colon to check for problems, or shoves the camera down your throat to look at your lungs. It was fortunate they had a doctor who understood anaesthesia and diving and was able to optimise the amount of sedation so that it was enough but not too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, hansnl said: Vets are animal doctors. I presume they know something about medicine then. Probably at least as much if not more than a senior nurse. They are also used to dealing with patients who cannot communicate with them fully. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cake Monster Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 6 hours ago, darksidedog said: As pretty much all the divers said, the biggest risk in bringing out inexperienced divers, under water for a long period was panic. A single child losing it underwater could have lost his life and possibly that of rescue teams too, so knocking them out was probably in their best interests. I suspect given they are all alive and well, none of them are going to be complaining. Damned fortunate to have an experienced cave diver who was also an anesthetist. The Anesthetist was bought in under the instruction of the British dive team. Dr. Harris was requested fairly early on in the operation to rescue the team, as the only option was to dive the boys out, and a you have highlighted, the main risk to all the team, divers and helpers was if a lad panicked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joskeshake Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 No problem how they did it,most important, they are all safe, just R.I.P to the Thai diver and respect for everybody who made this possible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotchilli Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Best thing they ever did was to heavily sedate the boys, any chance of one of them having a panic attack would have been fatal.. I've dived in open water for 12 years in my youth, to help support the cost of re-charging bottles I used to go out with the lobster pot fishermen to help retrieve pots that had become stuck in rocks on the bottom.. mostly at night when the visibility was near to zero.. know as "dirty diving".. you had to keep you head screwed on and have nerves of steel.. in the darkness you can't tell your ass from your elbow, being completely disorientated. You wouldn't catch me inside a cave with zero visibility and tight passage ways... that's a whole different ball game I take my hat off to these guys who do it as a hobby for a thrill.. not my cup of tea. Whilst not taking anything away from the Thai seals I think they were out of their depth with this one and were wise to take advantage of international cave rescuers in the early stages... sedation was better than loss of life, you'd have to knock me out completely to get me in or out of there!!! Sadly the retired navy seal found out what happens when it goes wrong.. and he was an experienced diver! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Crustyhk Posted July 17, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, hotchilli said: Best thing they ever did was to heavily sedate the boys, any chance of one of them having a panic attack would have been fatal.. I've dived in open water for 12 years in my youth, to help support the cost of re-charging bottles I used to go out with the lobster pot fishermen to help retrieve pots that had become stuck in rocks on the bottom.. mostly at night when the visibility was near to zero.. know as "dirty diving".. you had to keep you head screwed on and have nerves of steel.. in the darkness you can't tell your ass from your elbow, being completely disorientated. You wouldn't catch me inside a cave with zero visibility and tight passage ways... that's a whole different ball game I take my hat off to these guys who do it as a hobby for a thrill.. not my cup of tea. Whilst not taking anything away from the Thai seals I think they were out of their depth with this one and were wise to take advantage of international cave rescuers in the early stages... sedation was better than loss of life, you'd have to knock me out completely to get me in or out of there!!! Sadly the retired navy seal found out what happens when it goes wrong.. and he was an experienced diver! I couldn't agree more. I dive too but there's nothing that would get me to dive in an unknown cave. You would have to search hard to find a braver bunch of guys. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Media1 Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Very smart of the Australians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cake Monster Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 When I was a supple and skinny young man, I spent many a muddy and wet hour down Potholes in the UK. Potholing in " Dry " cave can be very challenging and sometimes outright dangerous, so to put on Scuba gear to explore " wet " caves is beyond my imagination. These guys are either Super Human, or are not wired up correctly. Which ever the case may be, they are truly brave and humble as well 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leadidge Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 You can watch this program on the ABC iview app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damian Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, Leadidge said: You can watch this program on the ABC iview app. Yes watched this with the mrs last night. Great insight given to get a better understanding of the whole operation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AL Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Keeping journalists at bay was another brilliant idea. They did everything just right. Kudos and thank you ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connda Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 Well, yeah. The 'tell' on that was the anesthesiologist playing a larger that life role in the rescue. Make perfect sense as it's easier to move an inert, pliable object than one that is freaking out, kicking and generally drowning before he can be moved more that a few tens of meters down the passageway. But that isn't something they were going to telegraph to the press. Again - Kudo to the entire team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bill3173 Posted July 17, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) To those interested, below is the direct web link to the Four Corners story "Out of the Dark". Was surprised to hear they expected 3 or 4, possibly 5 casualties. Regards. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/out-of-the-dark/10000580 Edited July 17, 2018 by Bill3173 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrry Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, Leadidge said: You can watch this program on the ABC iview app. actually if you search google for four corners abc you will get a direct link you can watch without a vpn. four corners is open to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damrongsak Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 7 hours ago, Juan B Tong said: I was heavily sedated too. Maybe I'll go get heavily sedated again this afternoon Hey, man, you need a ride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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