Major Change Eff 1 Apr 19 in Bangkok Bank ACH Transfers

[Berkshire]

On 7/30/2018 at 10:27 AM, Pib said:

 

And just for others listening in who get a "military" retirement pension and may be wondering if Thailand is on the IDD listed used by the Defense Finance Accounting Service (DFAS) which pays out military month pensions, well, Thailand is not.   Here's the link to the DFAS list of IDD countries.   

 

And directly below is how DFAS describes countries on the IDD list....as already mentioned by Jim, Thailand is not on the SSA IDD list.  Nor are they on the DFAS IDD list...probably not on any U.S. govt IDD list which the U.S. Treasury probably controls.

 

 

I even sent DFAS a query a few weeks ago asking if Thailand was maybe under consideration for IDD?

 

My Question

 

Partial Quote below of DFAS Reply....they didn't really answer the question about is Thailand "under consideration."  In the way they answered the question I guess DFAS was just being nice in implying (at least to me), No, Thailand is not under consideration.  Or, the DFAS rep simply didn't have any knowledge of what countries may be under consideration as in they will not know until the U.S. Treasury adds a country to the IDD list.

 

 

Edit:  But just to stress the transfer of U.S. govt pension benefit payments such as social security and military retirement (i.e., payment from Uncle Same to you)  are "not" impacted by the change in ACH transfers via "ibanking" unless in the IAT format (i.e., you doing ACH transfers from your ibanking acct). 

Interestingly, none of the ASEAN countries (save Singapore) are on that list.  I'm surprised the Philippines is not on the list as there are tons of retired US military folks there.   

[Berkshire]

On 7/28/2018 at 4:22 PM, Pib said:

 

 

Now back to my computer keyboard where all my fingers can type vs just using my two thumbs on my smartphone. 

 

With more fingers working now I just wanted to add, can you even use a SWIFT/BIC code in a U.S. "domestic" wire or must you use a ABA routing number since you are just moving dollars within the U.S. with a domestic transfer?

 

And is the screen/info to fill out for a domestic wire identical to an international wire?   There would definitely be some underlying coding that would be different...coding that gets thrown in automatically based on the info you enter.

 

 

I'm still a bit confused and I hope you or someone else can answer this.

 

I do a monthly ACH online transfer (set to automatic for monthly) and I assume that's going away.  But recently, I had to transfer a large amount (online transfer max is $2,500) and did a wire transfer.  I assume this is still doable.  Except that since it was the BKK Bank in NY, my bank called it a domestic transfer and charged me accordingly ($14 for domestic, $25 for international).  Will wire transfers through BKK Bank in NY still be possible?

[55Jay]

On 7/27/2018 at 10:13 PM, ningnong said:

Buried in the bill pay section of my US credit union online site is POPmoney. It's free and works well. If not free it's $0.95 for transfer. POPmoney has a webpage you can check if your bank offers the service.

https://secure2.popmoney.com/richux/faces/base/popmoney/prelogin/searchBank.xhtml

My transfers to BKK bank accounts all seem to be fine now for a few years, exchange rate correct and normal charges by BKK bank.

FWIW my daughter in the US just set up a transfer to her mom in Thailand last week and it worked without a problem, same credit union. This was a first time set up and use. There are none of the test deposits POPmoney being a 3rd party handles the transfer. My guess is the service will continue without a hitch after the Apr. 2019 deadline mentioned in this thread.

Yeah, I was on Navy Federal CU this morning, noticed a new "Send Money' tab, separate from the normal "Transfer Money" tab.  It's called "Zelle" but is US-centric.   

 

I never thought I would set up a Transferwise account, but here I go.... ?

[Pib]

4 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Will wire transfers through BKK Bank in NY still be possible?

Assuming your are talking a" Domestic" Wire, I seriously doubt it because you would still be using the the NY branch routing number just like in a Domestic ACH transfer currently used by many.   A Domestic Wire is really nothing more than a fast with more info Domestic ACH Transfer.   A Domestic Wire is for transmitting funds within the U.S...money not leaving the U.S.

 

 Yeap, there's more info in a Domestic Wire than a Domestic ACH Transfer but it's still using the ACH system.  Plus for a Domestic Wire the format/info and underlying coding is different from an International Wire and International ACH Transfer.  Just as a Domestic ACH Transfer is different from an International ACH Transfer that Bangkok Bank will require effective 1 Apr 19 if wanting to route funds through their NY branch using the ACH transfer method.

 

Summary: use of  Domestic Wire starting 1 Apr 19 doubtful it would work;  use of an International Wire that will work.

[Pib]

2 hours ago, Berkshire said:

Interestingly, none of the ASEAN countries (save Singapore) are on that list.  I'm surprised the Philippines is not on the list as there are tons of retired US military folks there.   

 

Number of retirees in a country is probably just a minor driver;  the major driver is as quoted below for DFAS. 

 

And I expect also a driver is some banks in the country "wanting to be part of the IDD" as they have to agree to certain requirements.  Hard to get Thailand banksters to agree on anything other than raising the foreign card ATM Use fee frequently....and I expect the Bank of Thailand would have to provide some kind of blessing to become part of IDD.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

1 hour ago, Berkshire said:

  But recently, I had to transfer a large amount (online transfer max is $2,500) and did a wire transfer.  I assume this is still doable.  Except that since it was the BKK Bank in NY, my bank called it a domestic transfer and charged me accordingly ($14 for domestic, $25 for international).  Will wire transfers through BKK Bank in NY still be possible?

 

I think that's an interesting question re BKKB NY and domestic wires that's yet to be clearly resolved...   As I previously recounted in this thread, I've recently had a similar experience to yours with my U.S. brokerage account and BKKB NY.

 

With my brokerage online banking, if I want to sent a domestic wire, the online banking system ONLY accepts an ABA routing number, which we believe is going away when BKKB NY's domestic ACH transfers system ends in April 2019. (However, I don't believe BKKB has specifically said as yet that domestic wires to their ABA routing number also will be stopped.)

 

But, either way and beyond that, when I then go to mock up an international wire transfer from my brokerage to BKKB and use their NY branch's Swift code, my brokerage accepts that as an international wire but quotes me the domestic wire fee rate (which in my case would be free).  If I change the Swift code to BKKB's Thailand Swift code, then the fee quote changes to the regular international wire fee.

 

So that kind of raises two questions that BKKB really hasn't clearly answered yet (though I have a request in with them on the topic):

 

1. Post April 2019, will the BKKB NY branch continue to accept domestic wire transfers (as opposed to domestic ACH transfers) sent to their ABA routing number for forwarding those funds onto Thailand?

 

and

 

2. Post April 2019, will the BKKB NY branch accept international wire transfers sent to the New York branch's NY Swift code (as opposed to BKKB's Thailand Swift code) for forwarding those funds onward to Thailand?

 

As Pib noted above, the domestic wire format includes more detailed info about the sender and recipient of the kind that supposedly the U.S. banking regulators said was lacking in BKKB's domestic ACH system for sending funds abroad. But whether the wires thru the NY branch will cease or not along with the ACH transfers remains an unanswered question, AFAIK.

Edited August 1, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

Quote

Interestingly, none of the ASEAN countries (save Singapore) are on that list.  I'm surprised the Philippines is not on the list as there are tons of retired US military folks there.   

Well, lemme see. There are two IDD lists put out by the Federal Reserve. One is for Social Security, here:

https://www.ssa.gov/deposit/foreign.htm

And another one for military payments, here:

https://www.dfas.mil/retiredmilitary/manage/idd.html

 

The Social Security list was put out by Democrats, enabling SS payment anywhere in the world where there may by ACLU social workers awaiting their checks. This list includes such stalwarts as Laos, Cambodia, and Vietnam.

 

DOD Republicans said nope, we're not going to send checks to anybody who lives in a country who thwarted our 'crazy Asian war. ' So, no Vietnam, Laos, or Cambodia.

 

However, someone at Treasury noted that our kill commie ally Thailand was not on either list, so they did an end run around the Fed and allowed direct deposits via Bangkok Bank. Sigh -- your Gov't at work.

 

Now for another convoluted look at Federal dictates:

In 2009 IAT came into effect, whereby the following data elements needed to be included in any transaction crossing the border:

Quote

must be accompanied by seven (7) mandatory addenda records identifying the name and physical address of the Originator, name and physical address of the Receiver, Receiver’s
account number, Receiver’s bank identity and reason for the payment.

Today, however -- 9 years down the road -- 'know your customer' (KYC) rules are pretty ironclad in the US -- and in most of the other first world countries. And even Thailand, now a signatory to FATCA, adheres to such rules. So, today the IAT police doesn't need extra data elements on your ACH transfer. That information exists with a simple pull from your bank account number. And all the data elements are basically static -- except for 'reason for payment.' And that element is a complete joke when it comes to identifying money laundering. Here's what TransferWise has you fill out to send money over the border:

Even if you're telling the truth, what in the world would any of those answers provide the IAT police? I sent a TransferWise last week to my wife's individual account as a birthday gift. How did I label it? Why, charitable donation of course. That should have those Feds scratching their heads.

 

Anyway, point being, the IAT police today have all the info they need under the KYC procedures. Just eliminate the stupid dynamic "reason" from the required data elements, and you could allow a domestic ACH to cross the border without any additional data elements.

 

But, ACH to Bangkok Bank is probably toast. However, for large, infrequent money transfers, I can live with a SWIFT wire transfer. And for more frequent transfers, I'm sure TransferWise will lower their rates, since today a EUR to Thai Baht transfer is half the cost of a US$ to Baht transfer. And the dollar is certainly no thinly traded currency. So I would expect their rates to come down ( not that current rates are affecting my life style).

 

[Pib]

1 hour ago, JimGant said:

Well, lemme see. There are two IDD lists put out by the Federal Reserve. One is for Social Security, here:

https://www.ssa.gov/deposit/foreign.htm

And another one for military payments, here:

https://www.dfas.mil/retiredmilitary/manage/idd.html

 

Pretty striking how much longer SSA's list of IDD countries is than DFAS's list.   SSA's has 111 countries and DFAS's has 56 countries.  I guess I'm wrong where I said the U.S. Treasury controls the IDD list...both SSA's and DFAS's IDD list should be the same or at least a lot closer if Treasury did.   But Thailand is on neither of them.

[Langsuan Man]

On 8/1/2018 at 5:08 AM, JimGant said:

Anyway, point being, the IAT police today have all the info they need under the KYC procedures. Just eliminate the stupid dynamic "reason" from the required data elements, and you could allow a domestic ACH to cross the border without any additional data elements.

Agreed,but after all these pages of explanations for the new rules why doesn't Bangkok Bank , New York Branch,  internally set up a system that will satisfy the KYC procedures ?

 

Once Apr 19th hits Bangkok Bank is sure going to loose a lot in fees that the current system generates on a daily basis 

[Pib]

Of course losing any fee revenue stream is not desired by any  financial company but I'm sure the fees Bangkok Bank will lose from "little people (i.e., me, you, others) ACH-related" ibanking transfers is a drop in their total fee revenue bucket.   But they will still be getting fees from people who switch to Int'l Wire (a.k.a., SWIFT) transfers...and the U.S. govt benefit payments which are not affected by policy change.   

 

Oh yea, Bangkok Bank may still get a few fees from any folks who can initiate an International ACH Transaction (IAT) that Bangkok Bank will require effective 1 Apr 19 if you still want to use their ACH method for bank transfers.

 

I sure know none of my U.S. banks offer IAT for a "retail account" nor have I been able to google-up any bank that offers IAT for retail accounts like the common man, you and me, mom and pop, etc., have.  IAT is pretty much limited to those business accounts which deal with international payment of goods/service, payroll, etc.  For retail account bank transfers they are pretty much limited to the Domestic ACH, Domestic Wire, and Int'l Wire...and maybe a few other domestic-only transfer methods like Zelle, etc.

 

Since I already have some spreadsheets setup doing a cost comparison of various transfer methods, it was easy to modify one to which shows below comparison between during 12 monthly transfers of $2,000 using Transferwise and the current Bangkok Bank ACH method Versus just doing one SWIFT transfer of $24,000 representing a year's worth of 12 monthly $2,000 transfers. 

 

Basically what if a person switched from doing monthly/pretty frequent transfers to just one bigger transfer to provide a year's worth of living expenses.  Of course a person simply may not want to transfer a big amount for various reasons such as simply don't have that much in your account, pain to do so with your bank, don't want to keep a large amount in your Thai bank account, don't want to have over  $10K in a Thai bank account to avoid FATCA reporting requirements, or whatever reason(s)--and I know there can be many.

 

Below are the results where I just modified a spreadsheet I had reflecting 31 July 18 exchange rates for Transferwise and Bangkok Bank, uses a sending $45 Int'l Wire sending fee since it falls kinda in the middle of the $25 to $60 Int'l Wire fee ballpark charged by U.S. banks.   Used a $24,000 gross annual transfer amount either either via "one" $24,000 Int'l Wire....or 12 monthly transfers via Bangkok Bank ACH method or via Transferwise.   Since exchange rates are ever changing...up  & down throughout the day & year I assumed the 31 July exchange rate as the average rate on the monthly transfers and for the single Int'l Wire.

 

So, what were the results?  Expecting the Transferwise or Bangkok Bank ACH via monthly transfer method be the winner in terms of total baht being posted to your account after fully considering/adjusting for exchange rate "and" fees?  If so, you expectation didn't come true, the one large Int'l Wire was the winner by approximately $85/$2750 after the exchange rate and fee dust settles.....current Bangkok Bank ACH method came in second and Transferwise last. 

 

 

 

[JimGant]

Quote

why doesn't Bangkok Bank , New York Branch,  internally set up a system that will satisfy the KYC procedures ?

Sure, they could do a Transferwise type operation, which uses domestic ACH "pulls", which gets around having your bank do IAT coding with their "pushes" and instead has Transferwise fill in the IAT data elements. But this would require Bangkok Bank NY to set up online accounts with everyone wanting to ACH money to Thailand. Again, similar to what Transferwise does.

 

But BBNY just doesn't have the market (only US financial institutions and only one foreign bank), thus the cost vis-a-vis Transferwise, with its economies of scale, wouldn't realistically allow BBNY to compete. Having said that, I imagine there will be several new competitors to Transferwise in the near future.

[JimGant]

Pib, you know the green eyeshade crowd at Transferwise has also run the numbers, so they're not about to let wire transfers come out ahead. And as was said before, why a dollar-to-baht transfer is more expensive than a euro-to-baht transfer is somewhat strange. Maybe, since the US operation is newer, some start up costs are now being amortized. Anyway, assuming TW gets competitive, by plugging in the current euro to baht rate for the dollar to baht rate (.5% and $3.50) , I roughly show your Transferwise bottom line becoming something like $793,450 -- a new winner.

 

Anyway, fun with numbers. But just tell me where the dollar will be a year after sending $24k.....that's the variable that makes sending a lump sum so interesting.

[Pib]

I have found a flip of the coin method as accurate as the methods used by so called experts to forecast future exchange rates.

And be sure to only flip the coin once because a subsequent flip has a 50-50 chance of giving an opposite answer.

[mackayae]

From Vanguard:

The only option for electronic transfer within your plan is an electronic
bank transfer (EBT) to U.S. banks. We are unable to process a disbursement
via International ACH Transfers (IAT).

 

[mackayae]

From 2014:

"This posting is for the information of only Americans with Direct Deposits to Bangkok Bank NY.
A New York Law Firm is looking into a class action Law Suit based on this Banks failure to disclose the amount of monies they charged and remove prior to forwarding to your account. "

I wonder if this was the catalyst.

[Pib]

From 2014:
"This posting is for the information of only Americans with Direct Deposits to Bangkok Bank NY.
A New York Law Firm is looking into a class action Law Suit based on this Banks failure to disclose the amount of monies they charged and remove prior to forwarding to your account. "
I wonder if this was the catalyst.

Highly doubtful as that case was settled in 2015 out of court with a $25K payment to the claimant plus court costs. Never made no sense to me as Bangkok Bank has always stated their NY branch fee for ACH transfers ...and govt payments are via ACH. And their fee notice on their website remained unchanged after the settlement. Expect the law suit really centered around some other technicality.

[Pib]

Update to my earlier post on the class action suit settlement....I was operating off deeply archived memory this morning. 

 

See below mid 2016 TV post for specifics....settled in mid 2016 for $25K total....$20K in lawyer fees and $5 to the plaintiff.   

 

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

21 hours ago, Pib said:

Update to my earlier post on the class action suit settlement....I was operating off deeply archived memory this morning. 

 

See below mid 2016 TV post for specifics....settled in mid 2016 for $25K total....$20K in lawyer fees and $5 to the plaintiff. 

 

 

$5K for the plaintiff. $5 would have been a bit chintzy. 

 

But it would be interesting to find and read the terms of the full settlement agreement, which went beyond just the payment to the plaintiff, in terms of what it did or didn't require the bank to do.

 

Edited August 5, 2018 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

 

42 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

$5K for the plaintiff. $5 would have been a bit chintzy. 

 

But it would be interesting to find and read the terms of the full settlement agreement, which went beyond just the payment to the plaintiff, in terms of what it did or didn't require the bank to do.

 

Yea...typo....$5K to the plaintiff.  And the plaintiff probably didn't get anyone else to join him in the class action suit otherwise the settlement should have talked what payments each class action member would receive. 

 

The only way to get details on the settlement would be to pay a fee to the NY court for a copy of the court settlement either directly applying to the court records clerk or registering with one of those legal research companies that can get the info for a fee.   Of course this assumes it's not a sealed court settlement which is doubtful.    

[Berkshire]

On 8/4/2018 at 8:05 PM, Pib said:

Update to my earlier post on the class action suit settlement....I was operating off deeply archived memory this morning. 

 

See below mid 2016 TV post for specifics....settled in mid 2016 for $25K total....$20K in lawyer fees and $5 to the plaintiff.   

 

 

 

 

Thanks for that.  So BKK Bank is going to shut down their ACH service because this ahole Peter Van Dermark sued them over a few dollars service charge?  This really bites. 

[Pib]

44 minutes ago, Berkshire said:

Thanks for that.  So BKK Bank is going to shut down their ACH service because this ahole Peter Van Dermark sued them over a few dollars service charge?  This really bites. 

Nope....it didn't say that anywhere.  Can't assume a 2015-16 lawsuit settled out of court was the catalyst for the change going into affect 1 Apr 19. 

 

My belief it's purely due to the U.S. govt and National Automated Clearing House Association tightening-up rules regarding the monitoring of funds which leave and enter the U.S. using the ACH system, because Domestic ACH transfers have long been used---legally used---to also transfer funds in and out of the U.S.  Same thing has been happening in other countries like how Bangkok Bank changed it transfers procedures for UK folks using the UK Bankers Automated Clearing Services (BACS) via the Bangkok Bank London branch which is the UK version of the US ACH system....that change went into effect last year.  The BACS new procedure is basically identical to the procedures going into effect for the US ACH which is just additional info required in the transfer.   Summary: governments everywhere are tightening-up rules on funds flow leaving/entering a countries.

 

This ACH tightening is not changing any limits in how much a person can send/receive; it's just requiring certain "information" be required in each transfer such as full name and address of the sender and receiver, preferably in specific format to allow automated monitoring versus requiring human eyeball review.   Transfers in the Domestic ACH transaction format does "not" provide all of that info, but the "International ACH Transaction" (IAT) format does which Bangkok Bank will require 1 Apr 19 if wanting to use ACH.  And use of a Int'l Wire/SWIFT transfer also provides all the required info.   

 

Once again this change does "not" affect the payment of U.S. govt benefit  payments such as social security pension, military retirement pay, etc., paid by ACH as the U.S. Treasury has ruled the IAT format is still not required for such govt payments via ACH although the U.S. Treasury is recommending govt agencies transition to IAT format for recipients living in foreign countries as soon as those agencies can update their payment systems which is about as easy as altering the Earth's orbit.   

 

Actually this U.S. Treasury ruling is a good thing to ensure currents payments are not impacted by the IAT requirements.   Don't you love it when the govt forces changes on others but exempts itself.  But in saying these govt ACH payments do include additional info/underlying coding and also flow to special, restricted Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit accounts which effectively meet the intent of the funds flow monitoring/control used in an IAT or Int'l Wire/SWIFT transfer.

 

So, if businesses or the common man want to send money overseas via "ACH" the  IAT format must be used.  If a person's bank don't offer the IAT format then use of an Int'l Wire/SWIFT transfer is required.   To this date in all my googling/research I have not found a U.S. bank/credit union that offers IAT for a retail account like you and I have.  IAT is only offered by some banks/financial companies for business accounts which need the capability to send/receive funds for foreign payment of goods/services, payroll, etc., using the ACH system.   

 

 

[mackayae]

If we transfer from our US bank to our "special, restricted Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account" account via BB NY would that meet the requirements?

Edited August 6, 2018 by mackayae

[Pib]

21 minutes ago, mackayae said:

If we transfer from our US bank to our "special, restricted Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account" account via BB NY would that meet the requirements?

No, because that's a Domestic ACH transfer from your "bank/credit union/financial company" which would not be in the IAT format.   

 

But if it was a transfer from the "U.S. govt," it's still allowed/satisfies the requirements.

 

Unless a transfer from the U.S. govt it must be in IAT or Int'l Wire/SWIFT format.  

[Pib]

Another way to get money is "via counter withdrawal" at a Thai bank using your foreign credit/debit card. 

 

I know, I know, this has been talked in many threads/posts over the years to include this thread.  And use of an ATM to get money has been talked to infinity.  This post just adds one more counter withdrawal post but also includes some detailed info and a cost comparison to other ways of getting money like doing an ACH/SWIFT or using a money transfer service like Transferwise.   

 

This is a long post with lots of detail.  To skip all the detail scroll to the bottom now to see the comparison charts....see how using a "no-fee" Visa/Mastercard card for a counter withdrawal faired in comparison to electronic funds transfer methods.

 

Regarding use of counter withdrawal using a  "credit" card, since the great majority of credit cards charge a cash advance fee of 3% plus interest immediately starting to accrue unless you can prepay or immediately pay off the charge it's probably best not to use a credit card.  And chances are the credit card also carries a foreign transaction fee of 1 to 3%.   

 

Instead, use your debit card to avoid a cash advance fee...and hopefully the debit card does not charge a foreign transaction fee....but unfortunately most do except cards like the Schwab debit card and some others.    

 

Below comparison assumes your card-issuing bank does not charge a foreign transaction fee or cash advance fee which are in the minority of cards.  But some cards do not have those fees...I have some of those no-fee cards which I will not identify just to maintain some personal banking privacy.   If your card does carry a foreign transaction fee of say 3% then just subtract that amount from the amount shown in the Visa/Mastercard chart below.

 

Usually the Thai bank branch does not charge any counter withdrawal fee like when using an ATM, but some branches may charge a Bt200-220 counter withdrawal fee...Krungsri does on Visa cards but not Mastercard.  And some banks may want to only accomplish the transaction if using their DCC rate which will be about 3% lower than your card's full rate....I think that's how SCB does it for credit cards.  And some may not want to even do a counter withdrawal....say you must use an ATM...have a nice day...come back soon.   Summary: it varies among Thai bank branches. 

 

Now if you are thinking why would a Thai bank accomplish a counter withdrawal without charging a fee of say around Bt200. Well, that's because the bank disbursing the money earns an "interchange fee from your card-issuing bank."  It's the reverse of how the interchange fee works for the purchase of goods/services where your card-issuing bank earns an interchange fee from the merchant/local bank. 

 

That cash disbursement interchange fee is purely between the cash disbursing bank and your card-issuing bank....you will not see a separate charge for this on your account.  And don't confuse that interchange fee with the separate foreign transaction fee your card-issuing bank may charge---two different animals.   Like at current exchange rates for a Bt30K counter withdrawal the Thai bank earns approx a Bt157 interchange fee....for Bt60K approx Bt255....for Bt100K approx Bt388....for Bt150K approx Bt533. 

 

Remember, the bank earns this interchange fee even if they don't charge a separate counter withdrawal fee.  And the Thai bank still earns an interchange fee when you use your foreign card in an ATM plus the Bt220 ATM Use fee most charge now.  That Bt220 ATM Use Fee is just icing added to the fee cake. So even with a counter withdrawal the Thai bank is earning a fee called an interchange fee.  Don't be concerned the Thai bank is losing money on you as they are really making money on the counter withdrawal.  Look at the last snapshot below for the Visa International interchange fee for cash disbursement via ATM or over-the-counter....expect the Mastercard cash disbursement interchange fee is very similar.

 

The amount you can withdrawal will depend on the cash advance/counter withdrawal limit "set by your card-issuing bank and the Thai bank you use"...both limits can come into play.  And your card-issuing bank counter withdrawal daily limit may be higher than the daily amount allowed from an ATM....or they might be the same...you need to look at your account disclosures...check with your bank.   Or maybe you can sweet-talk your card-issuing bank into temporarily raising your daily limit for some large & immediate money need you have....like a one-time-use increase which expires within 24 hours.  Lots of different cards out there and their ATM & counter withdrawals limits vary....check with your bank.

 

While for example your U.S. card-issuing bank may allow up to a $5000 daily "counter cash disbursement" which equates to approx Bt165K at current exchange rates, the Thai bank may only allow up to Bt150K which also just happens to be what some Thai banks allow per day if using their Thai debit card.   I ran-up against that last week when wanting to do a counter withdrawal for Bt160K using my foreign card, which was a little under the $5K limit on the  card.  But the bank rep quickly said before inserting my card into the POS machine that the branch only allows Bt150K max.  So, I adjusted my request to Bt150K, the withdrawal was accomplished, and I also just deposited the Bt150K directly into my bank account....a combo type transaction.   Use of a bank you have an account at might be better, but you can try any bank.

 

But before attempting a counter withdrawal, which Thai banks rep will probably refer to as a cash advance, you also need to know the max amount allowed by your card-issuing bank for a Point of Service (POS) "cash disbursement" transaction because a counter withdrawals will be handled as a POS Purchase transaction like when you buy something.   But just because your debit/credit card happens to have say a $5K daily POS Purchase limit does not mean all of that can be in a cash disbursement.  And don't confuse a credit card line of credit limit with the POS Purchase and cash disbursement  daily limits....all different animals.  Check with your bank to determine your debit/credit card limit for a "cash disbursement at a bank counter"....it might the same as your ATM limit...it might be a sub-amount of your daily Purchase Limit....it might be all the way up to your Daily Purchase limit.  Check with our bank.  

 

 

You may find out that a $5K POS Purchase daily limit allows say $2K in cash which leaves another $3K for purchases....I have one card like that.  Or you may find out the entire $5K Purchase limit can be in a cash disbursement...I have a card like that.  And I have cards that only allow $1K in cash disbursement.  If your card's written disclosures does not clearly identify your cash disbursement daily limit at a bank counter you will need to contact your bank for that info.

 

If you want to ask for almost your card-issuing bank cash disbursement daily limit, like asking for the baht equivalent of $1,950 if your daily limit is $2K, before going to the bank you really need to look at the Visa/Mastercard exchange pages to see what the latest exchange rate is even though the current day exchange rate may not be reflected yet.  Then determine how much $1,950 works out to in baht.  Otherwise, you may ask for too much baht and the transaction is rejected as Over Limit which is probably going to be a little embarrassing.  Do a little math just before heading to your branch.

 

When processed as a POS Purchase transaction this means it will take a several business days for the final charge/exchange rate to "Post" to your account as final.  Up until that point you'll just see a "Pending" transaction immediately hit your account which will use a certain exchange rate that may be higher or lower than the actual exchange rate once Posted.   Only when the transaction posts (i.e., finalizes, settlement occurs)  will you know the exact rate used.  For a cash disbursement it will usually be the actual day you did the transaction unless maybe you did it on a weekend.  But if a different/later day is used you might end up getting a better or lower rate since card network exchange rates change every 24 hours....just like how the TT Buying Rate used for incoming electronic transfers and money transfer service rates are always changing up and down.  

 

Since most U.S Visa/Mastercard debit/credit cards seem to have daily "cash disbursement" limits of $500, $1000, $2,000 or $5000 the chart below only compares those amounts against a Transferwise, Bangkok Bank ACH, and Int'l Wire/Swift transfer.  Exchange rates used were 3 Aug 18 rates as reflected on above mentioned websites.  Use of a no foreign transaction fee card card and the Thai bank not charging a counter withdrawal fee is assumed for the counter withdrawal using a Visa or Mastercard debit card. 

 

You will notice in the comparison that if you have a no-fee card (i.e., the card-issuing bank does not charge a foreign transaction fee/cash advance fee), then use of a Visa/Mastecard counter withdrawal gives you the most baht after fully considering the exchange rate and fees....beats out an ACH/Int'l Wire/SWIFT transfer or a Transferwise transfer.

 

Over and out....my fingers are tried...pardon the bad grammar and typos....now on to the charts.  Cheers.

 

3 Aug 18/Friday Exchange Rates Used

  

 

 

Visa Interchange Fee for Cash Disbursement from an ATM or Counter...counter withdrawal circled.

 

 

 

[srowndedbyh2o]

On 8/5/2018 at 8:15 PM, Pib said:

No, because that's a Domestic ACH transfer from your "bank/credit union/financial company" which would not be in the IAT format.   

 

But if it was a transfer from the "U.S. govt," it's still allowed/satisfies the requirements.

 

Unless a transfer from the U.S. govt it must be in IAT or Int'l Wire/SWIFT format.  

I believe you will also be able to have a non-government (not SS) pension direct deposited into your BKK account.

It does state on the BKK Bank website: 

How to apply: If receiving payments from a private organization 

1. Request the 'Authorization Agreement for Automatic Deposits (ACH Credits)' form or ‘Related Direct Deposit’ form from the organization or the Agency that will be making the payment to you. Complete the form to request the Direct Deposit service.
2. Open a savings account at any Bangkok Bank branch in Thailand. If you already have an account with Bangkok Bank, you can use your existing bank account for this service.
3. Request your home branch to issue a bank reference letter to certify your bank account details such as account type, account number, date of account opening and current balance to be provided to your agency.
4. Indicate the Routing Number 026008691 of Bangkok Bank’s branch in New York and your account number with Bangkok Bank in Thailand on your 'Authorization Agreement for Automatic Deposits (ACH Credits)' form or ‘Related Direct Deposit’ form.
5. Submit the form with the required information such as your Identity Card or Social Security Card, or evidence of your right to receive the payments from the company, together with Bangkok Bank’s Reference Letter. Mail the signed form to the US company asking it to approve the request and initiate direct deposits into your account.
6. After the request to receive direct deposits is approved, your payments will be electronically deposited directly into your Bangkok Bank account.

[srowndedbyh2o]

When I contacted BKK Bank NY, this is the response I received.

Of note was their comment: “...however, if your bank does not provide IAT, you have another two options to transfer funds to an account in Thailand, as follows:”

“The following is the full email I received;

Firstly,  I apologize for my late response.  Here is an explanation of the new developments which are taking place regarding ACH transactions. All ACH transactions must be received in the correct IAT format by March 2019.
A transactions going to an account in Thailand is considered a cross border transaction because the funds are ultimately being deposited into your account with Bangkok Bank in Thailand.  In accordance with the rules for such international payments developed in the United States, the bank is required to obtain certain additional types of information from you for processing the payments to your account in Thailand.  As for your transaction which transmitted to us as ACH transaction and process across the countries, the bank is required to comply with the rules and formats developed by The Electronic Payments Association (NACHA).  The International ACH (IAT) is a special code (a Standard Entry Class or "SEC Code") for ACH payments that enables financial institutions such as Bangkok Bank to identify and monitor international ACH payments and to perform screening in order to comply with OFAC requirements.  The NACHA rules require Bangkok Bank's New York Branch, which serves as intermediary, to ensure that payments that we receive and that are transmitted to account of beneficiary in other country are appropriately classified as IATs.
All transactions must be received In the correct IAT format by March 2019, and contain information as described below.


1. Your name and physical address in Thailand;
2. Your bank account number and the name and address of your  Bangkok Bank Branch in Thailand; and
3. The routing number of Bangkok Bank New York Branch (026008691) , which acts as intermediary in the transaction.

With this requirement, we have started to return all non-IAT trial deposits that we received for customers in Thailand to stop new ACH transfer in the improper format.  

In order to continue processing your transaction which comes through ACH channel, please contact your bank whether they can facilitate International ACH for you, if they do, please provide them above information so they can include in the transaction.

Once Bangkok Bank's New York Branch receives the payment with the appropriate IAT format, we will process your payment to our Bank in Thailand for further credit to your account, however, if your bank does not provide IAT, you have another two options to transfer funds to an account in Thailand, as follows:

1. Request your bank to wire transfer funds through our New York Branch Fed Routing no. 026008691 and provide below details: 

* Beneficiary name

* Beneficiary address

* Beneficiary A/C number

* Intermediary Bank:    Bangkok Bank Public Co., Ltd.
                                             29 Broadway, 19th Floor
                                             New York, NY 10006
                                             Fed Routing no. 026008691

* Beneficiary Bank:     Bangkok Bank Public Co., Ltd.
                                             Branch address in Thailand

When fund passes through our New York Branch we will deduct our fees** before transferring the balance in U.S. dollar on the same day of receipt to our Bangkok office who will further credit the Beneficiary's account in Thai Baht on the following day at the exchange rate in Thailand.  You may check their rate on our Bank website at www.bangkokbank.com (TT rate).  

** Fee structure:-
                     Amount                                                           Fees
Less than         $50                                                no deduction
$50.01   -         $100                                                    $3
$100.01 -         $2,000                                                 $5
$2,000.01-       $50,000                                               $10
More than $50,000                                                      $20

2. Transfer funds with our New York Branch's Remittance services, as per the following procedures: 

a) Contact our New York Branch via email [email protected] that you would like to use our Remittance services to transfer funds with the check issue from your bank and to request for Remittance application.

b) Order the check from your bank payable to: 
Bangkok Bank Public Co., Ltd.
29 Broadway, 19th Floor
New York, NY 10006
Attn: Remittance Unit

c) Complete the Remittance Application form and send to New York Branch via email together with the photocopy of your valid ID.  We recommend you to use password protected of your documents when sending to us.  Please also provide the valid phone number on the form as we may need to contact you.

For the first time customer, please also mail the original Remittance Application to us at the above address.  If we do not have your original on file, we may not be able to process your future transactions.  

d) Upon receipt of the check from your bank and the complete Remittance Application and copy of ID via email, we will process your remittance request and will transfer funds on the third business day after depositing your check and will send the receipt to you.   

With our Remittance services, you have an option to transfer funds in Thai baht at our New York Branch's exchange rate or transfer funds in U.S. dollars to be convert to Thai Baht at Bangkok Bank's exchange rate in Thailand.  Our current Remittance fees per transaction are as follows:

* Thai Baht remittance fees:-

Remittance Amount                                                  Fees                       
Up to $100                                                                  $3
$100.01 -         $2,000                                                 $5
$2,000.01-       $50,000                                               $10
More than $50,000                                                      $20

* U.S. dollars remittance fee:  $55.- (regardless of the amount)

Please specify the currency that you would like us to transfer in the Remittance Application so the appropriated fees will be applied.   

 

[Pib]

6 minutes ago, srowndedbyh2o said:

When I contacted BKK Bank NY, this is the response I received.

Of note was their comment: “...however, if your bank does not provide IAT, you have another two options to transfer funds to an account in Thailand, as follows:”

“The following is the full email I received;
 

They pretty much just quoted what is on their website.

[Pib]

58 minutes ago, srowndedbyh2o said:

I believe you will also be able to have a non-government (not SS) pension direct deposited into your BKK account.

It does state on the BKK Bank website: 

How to apply: If receiving payments from a private organization 

1. Request the 'Authorization Agreement for Automatic Deposits (ACH Credits)' form or ‘Related Direct Deposit’ form from the organization or the Agency that will be making the payment to you. Complete the form to request the Direct Deposit service.
2. Open a savings account at any Bangkok Bank branch in Thailand. If you already have an account with Bangkok Bank, you can use your existing bank account for this service.
3. Request your home branch to issue a bank reference letter to certify your bank account details such as account type, account number, date of account opening and current balance to be provided to your agency.
4. Indicate the Routing Number 026008691 of Bangkok Bank’s branch in New York and your account number with Bangkok Bank in Thailand on your 'Authorization Agreement for Automatic Deposits (ACH Credits)' form or ‘Related Direct Deposit’ form.
5. Submit the form with the required information such as your Identity Card or Social Security Card, or evidence of your right to receive the payments from the company, together with Bangkok Bank’s Reference Letter. Mail the signed form to the US company asking it to approve the request and initiate direct deposits into your account.
6. After the request to receive direct deposits is approved, your payments will be electronically deposited directly into your Bangkok Bank account.

Yes, you can have a "non-govt" pension sent into a "regular savings account"; does not have to be a special Direct Deposit account. 

 

It's only the U.S. govt benefit payments that require the special Direct Deposit account.

[JimGant]

Quote

Yes, you can have a "non-govt" pension sent into a "regular savings account"; does not have to be a special Direct Deposit account. 

Pib, what I think the poster was getting at was, based on what the website says, it appears that pension checks from civilian organizations can also continue to be sent as domestic ACH transfers, just as govt pensions and social security can continue as domestic ACH transfers. This would be logical, as all the information  required for these transfer accounts cover all the bases for IAT data elements -- except purpose of transfer. But maybe even the stupid IAT police might condescend that the purpose of a pension check is -- to spend it, you stupid idiot!

 

Also, I think BBNY is becoming slight discombobulated over this change of events, as they state one of the IAT data elements required is:  Your name and physical address in Thailand;

No, what the Feds ask for, in part, is:

Quote

Name and physical address of the originator; name and physical address of the receiver.

You don't have to be the recipient of your transfer, as BBNY seems to indicate.

 

Anyway, I'm sure poor BBNY personnel have pulled a lot of hair out over all of this

[Pib]

2 hours ago, JimGant said:

Pib, what I think the poster was getting at was, based on what the website says, it appears that pension checks from civilian organizations can also continue to be sent as domestic ACH transfers, just as govt pensions and social security can continue as domestic ACH transfers. This would be logical, as all the information  required for these transfer accounts cover all the bases for IAT data elements -- except purpose of transfer. But maybe even the stupid IAT police might condescend that the purpose of a pension check is -- to spend it, you stupid idiot!

 

Yea...since they haven't changed the wording about a pension from a "private organization" that implies to me they should still flow.  And they can flow to a regular savings account; a special Direct Deposit account is not needed. 

 

From looking at the different pensions from U.S. govt organizations it easy to see they are from U.S. govt organizations and have my name in the transfer.  And I expect there is underlying coding that further identifies them as a government organization.   All kinds of underlying coding in an ACH transfer.  This make it easy for Bangkok Bank NY to see they coming from a U.S. govt organization.

 

But with so, so many different companies that pay out pensions or maybe a person has a monthly distribution flowing from an IRA or some other investment will Bangkok Bank be able to determine those are "pensions" versus just another financial transfer.  But such a payment is basically a "Direct Deposit" and is suppose to have special coding which identifies it as a Direct Deposit vs just another transfer.  Will be interesting  to see what really happens come Apr 19 with private organization payments. 

 

And I wonder if a person was just doing a ibanking transfer into his Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account if the NY branch might let that go through....probably not...but you never know.  I've done ibanking transfer into my Bangkok Bank Direct Deposit account (which I still have but don't have my pension payments going to it)  simply because of some FATCA reasons to keep the wife from needing to submit a separate FACTA report.    Come Apr 19 I might try an ibanking transfer to my Direct Deposit acct to see if it rejects...it probably will but I won't know for sure until trying.

 

Yea, I'm sure Bangkok Bank has a headache over this issue  and know where some loopholes that might still exist but they are not going to tell us...or they are working to close them...or maybe just leave them open.  Well, just have to wait until Apr 19 and see what some TV poster report.

 

Edit: and maybe it's worth a question to the NY branch to ask about civilian pensions and IRA/Investment type monthly/quarterly/periodic payments coming from companies say such as Fidelity, etc. Ask if they can continue to flow as before or do they now need to be in IAT format also. If they say such payment have to be in IAT format also,  then say, well that's not what our website says....your website implies they can continue to flow because the wording remains unchanged.

Edited August 9, 2018 by Pib