Australian researchers lay bare bloody history of colonial massacres

[lungbing]

How far do you want to go back?   The Zulus killed other tribes.  Should be take their lands and give them back to other tribes?  The Muslims took Constantinople.  Kick them out and give it back to the Christians?  It seems to me it's only where white people have done wrong that the guilt kicks in.   

I am responsible for my actions only.  I will not apologise for anything my father did, never mind my g.g.g.g. grandfather.

[Odysseus123]

1 minute ago, lungbing said:

How far do you want to go back?   The Zulus killed other tribes.  Should be take their lands and give them back to other tribes?  The Muslims took Constantinople.  Kick them out and give it back to the Christians?  It seems to me it's only where white people have done wrong that the guilt kicks in.   

I am responsible for my actions only.  I will not apologise for anything my father did, never mind my g.g.g.g. grandfather.

Nope.

It was in the living memory of my father (and me) who stood up and denounced the administrators of his RSL club in 1967.

 

Aboriginal soldiers had  fought beside him at Tobruk and El Alamein-and he stood by  them.

 

It is called common decency.

[tropo]

2 hours ago, overherebc said:

Agree. Everytime I meet someone from Germany should I start thinking about my uncles who killed Germans in WW2 and ask them if they feel it's terrible and how can I make the world better because I know my uncles' history. Forgot, they both fought in Italy as well, must give my Italian friend an extra plate of spag' bol' to make everything better.

No German has apologized for killing my aunt and great-grandfather in The Netherlands either.... and stealing all my family's food, leaving them virtually starving for nearly 5 years. The Japanese have yet to apologize for killing many of my wife's family members in the Philippines during the early 1940's. Bayonetting babies was a sport for them. Despite this, I have no ill will towards either nationality.

Edited July 28, 2018 by tropo

[The Deerhunter]

1 hour ago, Odysseus123 said:

I agree,

 

But of course they were restricted to 'Reserves' or' Missions'

 

They were only bought under Federal electoral law in 1967 when the average decent Aussie had had enough and we are,on the whole,a decent fair minded people...

 

 

I agree with you. It is a very sad national legacy.  "The beds are burning" still  brings tears to mu eyes each time I hear it: And I am not even an Aussie. I am 1200 miles away from being one.  My country did some terrible things too but in the words of Peter Garrett "It is not even close to being the same."

[The Deerhunter]

2 minutes ago, tropo said:

No German has apologized for killing my aunt and great-grandfather in The Netherlands either.... and stealing all my family's food, leaving them virtually starving for nearly 5 years. The Japanese have yet to apologize for killing many of my wife's family members in the Philippines during the early 1940's. Bayonetting babies was sport for them.

Did you ever read Nancy Chang''s book about the rape of Nanking in the 30's?  I started but could not finish it.  Appalling stuff. Bayonetting babies and pregnant women and beheading competitions for officers.

[tropo]

8 minutes ago, The Deerhunter said:

Did you ever read Nancy Chang''s book about the rape of Nanking in the 30's?  I started but could not finish it.  Appalling stuff. Bayonetting babies and pregnant women and beheading competitions for officers.

No, I haven't read that. The younger generations in the Philippines welcome the Japanese. They are mostly unaware of what happened during WW2. I don't think they teach much of it in the schools.

[overherebc]

16 minutes ago, tropo said:

No, I haven't read that. The younger generations in the Philippines welcome the Japanese. They are mostly unaware of what happened during WW2. I don't think they teach much of it in the schools.

War crimes, mass murders by civilian groups are things of the past, things of now and no doubt will be things of the future.

No amount of education and knowledge of such things in the past or the present will stop them in the future. It's in our nature, it's part of our make up.

The fact that we can think about it and discuss/argue about it doesn't make us better than those in the past.

For me, it's going to or it's getting worse as population numbers are growing out of control and living space for eveyone gets smaller.

People are shooting each other over parking places for christs sake.

Civilisation is word, it's not a reality.

People are killing each because they are taking revenge on past actions, actions that took place before they were born. Where does that sit with educating people about massacres in the distant past.

 

[The Deerhunter]

6 hours ago, tropo said:

No, I haven't read that. The younger generations in the Philippines welcome the Japanese. They are mostly unaware of what happened during WW2. I don't think they teach much of it in the schools.

Of course not.  Japan is the dominant regional economy.  It makes no sense to harp on about their excesses of 80 years ago.

[Chomper Higgot]

9 hours ago, tropo said:

No German has apologized for killing my aunt and great-grandfather in The Netherlands either.... and stealing all my family's food, leaving them virtually starving for nearly 5 years. The Japanese have yet to apologize for killing many of my wife's family members in the Philippines during the early 1940's. Bayonetting babies was a sport for them. Despite this, I have no ill will towards either nationality.

Whataboutary.

[xylophone]

11 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

Did you ever read Nancy Chang''s book about the rape of Nanking in the 30's?  I started but could not finish it.  Appalling stuff. Bayonetting babies and pregnant women and beheading competitions for officers.

I read it and was horrified at what I read.

 

IMO there is a difference between killing people when fighting a war and what the Japanese did to the Chinese civilians and soldiers...…….the bayoneting of babies for sport, ripping unborn children out with bayonets, using them and civilians for target practice and much more senseless brutality. 

 

The writer of the book (Iris Chang) who was American/Chinese committed suicide a few years after its publication because she could not live with what she discovered and also because of persecution and hate-mail from Japanese ultra-nationalists.

 

I also saw a documentary about it and a film starring Christian Bale, called The Flowers of War, which was based on a novel and featured aspects of that era and the atrocities in it.

 

 Terrible stuff...…...not a war, but like nothing you could have ever seen or imagined.

[overherebc]

2 minutes ago, car720 said:

A realist at last.

But you forgot to mention that 666 will always be the number of the beast.

Or 999 if you're standing on your head.

[tropo]

5 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Whataboutary.

OK, you're trying to look smart. If you're going to leave a one-word reply, why not make an effort to spell that one world correctly. 555555

 

Apart from spelling it wrong (it's whataboutEry), I was not responding to a question or an accusation, therefore "whataboutery" is irrelevant.  

[tropo]

8 hours ago, The Deerhunter said:

Of course not.  Japan is the dominant regional economy.  It makes no sense to harp on about their excesses of 80 years ago.

Of course. I'm not complaining that they are not harping on about the wrongs committed by the Japanese 80 years ago... it's just how it is. Not all wronged people spend the rest of their natural lives complaining about how their predecessors were wronged. Japan has directly donated a lot of money to the Philippines to improve infrastructure over the years. 

[The Deerhunter]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:18 PM, car720 said:

I thought he changed his name to Dutton. 

Who?  Dexter Dutton?  As in Life with Dexter?   (Steam Radio from the late 50's eary 60's.)  Apart from that as a guess  if it not wha you mean, then it is a bit to subtle for me.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 7/27/2018 at 6:42 AM, robblok said:

Almost every country has done some bad things in the past, the Dutch in Indonesia and other place, the Americans, wiping out the native Americans (one of the first times where disease was used to kill giving infected blankets to the native Americans). The Belgians in the Kongo, the Germans and French and Italians in their colonies.  But if you go back even further then almost all bigger empires are build by conquest it was the norm back then. So do we still have to feel guilty that is the question. Not so sure as I as a Dutch guy feel not responsible for what others have done in the past. 

But the Dutch massacres in Indonesia (and Belgium in the Kongo) are not the same as the genocide in Australia and America, surely ?

Holland and Belgium killed people, and then got out of the place. In Australia and America, genocide took place, and the land was taken permanently.  The ones who did the mass killings are still there today, with the the land they took.

[tonbridgebrit]

On 7/27/2018 at 10:43 AM, TPI said:

You can hear the whine starting already......More money, more money, more money! This is what Ms Hansen said 30 years ago was the problem with our "sun tanned brothers and sisters"! It's a problem that combines the historical low level IQ's of the Aboriginals with SJW's who specialise in "Gender Studies".....All the problems will go away, all the sins of the past will be wiped clean, things will be just peachy, if they only give us more money!  

How can I put this ?  If a bunch of foreigners turned up in Britain and carried out mass murder and genocide, how would I feel ?

Them outsiders giving me some money (welfare, social security, government benefits, etc) is actually not enough.  How about they give me my country back, and go back to where they're from ?  They're keeping the land they took, and I'm suppose to be grateful because they're giving me some dole money ??

[Credo]

27 minutes ago, tonbridgebrit said:

How can I put this ?  If a bunch of foreigners turned up in Britain and carried out mass murder and genocide, how would I feel ?

Them outsiders giving me some money (welfare, social security, government benefits, etc) is actually not enough.  How about they give me my country back, and go back to where they're from ?  They're keeping the land they took, and I'm suppose to be grateful because they're giving me some dole money ??

I don't support any type of mass murder or genocide, but it's what happens when two cultures come into contact and one is more dominant/stronger or advanced.  I think we need to keep in mind that neither the Americas or Australia were countries.   These were groups of people with no declared border.   

 

[bristolboy]

1 hour ago, tonbridgebrit said:

 In Australia and America, genocide took place, and the land was taken permanently.  The ones who did the mass killings are still there today, with the the land they took.

They must be very old.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 12:40 AM, Tchooptip said:

Right, but at the same time, some in those countries do not hesitate to say daily that as heir, we Westerners are all guilty...and as so we should pay! 

My ancestors were in a country that was itself persecuted by the English and many massacres carried out on the local population. Should I as a western person have to feel guilty about things done by other races and not by my ancestral race?

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

How can I put this ?  If a bunch of foreigners turned up in Britain and carried out mass murder and genocide, how would I feel ?

Them outsiders giving me some money (welfare, social security, government benefits, etc) is actually not enough.  How about they give me my country back, and go back to where they're from ?  They're keeping the land they took, and I'm suppose to be grateful because they're giving me some dole money ??

Given that everyone on the planet originated in Africa, no one has a claim to own Australia. Some just got there before others.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My ancestors were in a country that was itself persecuted by the English and many massacres carried out on the local population. Should I as a western person have to feel guilty about things done by other races and not by my ancestral race?

Are the British still there running the place?

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Are the British still there running the place?

What relevance does that have to me feeling guilty ( or not ) about attrocities carried out in Australia? I was responding to the poster saying all westerners should feel guilty.

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

What relevance does that have to me feeling guilty ( or not ) about attrocities carried out in Australia? I was responding to the poster saying all westerners should feel guilty.

Because the atrocities underpin the takeover of the country and the suppression of the indigenous people.

 

And who said you should ‘feel guilty’?

 

Doh!

Edited July 31, 2018 by Chomper Higgot

[lannarebirth]

On 7/27/2018 at 9:52 PM, sirineou said:

That some people might use history to promote their agenda is inevitable IMO the only defence is an educated public, remember ,I said  a "honest " look.

  Politics are always part of the problem, and sometimes part of the solution, they are part of the human condition and should not deter as from honest retrospective,

Apparently you don't have any children in an American college or university at present. Imagine if your half caste child returned from university after attending 14 years of international schools in Thailand to tell you about what your "white privelege" has wrought. Never mind they are the most priveleged children on the planet or that I grew up in the only white family in the projects or that I sold my blood plasma to buy textbooks, that is what they are being taught. Not in any specific class either, but I'm told almost every professor takes 10-15 minutes of every class period to impart their political opinions to the class (all tenured of course). These are in 2 of the top 20 universities in the world. It is never, ever going to end.

[lannarebirth]

On 7/28/2018 at 3:10 AM, Bluespunk said:

“And in "Elbow Room" the cast sings the glories of westward expansion in the United States, which involved the murder of native peoples and the violent conquest of half of Mexico. Among the lines in the song is one that intones, "There were plenty of fights / To win land right / But the West was meant to be / It was our Manifest Destiny?" Let it suffice to say that happily belting out a tune in which one merrily praises genocide is always easier for those whose ancestors weren't on the receiving end of the deal.”

Tim Wise, White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son

 

Was Tim descended from Spaniards by any chance?

[Bluespunk]

1 minute ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Was Tim descended from Spaniards by any chance?

Why does it matter who we are descended from?

 

Much of the hate in this world comes from a notion of who we are descended from. 

 

Or rather who others are not descended from. 

[lannarebirth]

18 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Why does it matter who we are descended from?

 

Much of the hate in this world comes from a notion of who we are descended from. 

 

Or rather who others are not descended from. 

I ask not because of any notion of hate but rather responsibility which is the theme of this topic?

 

How does one decide who is responsible for what?

 

My experience is from America. Conquered by Spaniards, British, French, Russians. Later consolidated and further settled by the newly founded nation of the USA. With the sole exception of the American purchase of Alaska all off my kin settled in America after all of these events.

 

The only line of my family that was on the North American continent prior to the Civil War were some Irish that had arrived maybe 20 years previously. All of fighting age were pressed into service of the Northern Army during the Civil War. What do they or their descendents owe to anyone?

 

Later, during WW1, my grandfather come back from France having been gassed by the Germans. He was never the same and that episde changed the trajectory of our family's future immeasureably. It forced my father to leave school at the age of 10 to become his family's breadwinner. To whom should we send the bill?

Edited July 31, 2018 by lannarebirth

[Nemises]

Given that everyone on the planet originated in Africa, no one has a claim to own Australia. Some just got there before others.

Yep. 100% correct.



https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/09/aborigines-the-first-out-of-africa-the-first-in-asia-and-australia/245392/

[Bluespunk]

10 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I ask not because of any notion of hate but rather responsibility which is the theme of this topic?

 

How does one decide who is responsible for what?

 

My experience is from America. Conquered by Spaniards, British, French, Russians. Later consolidated and further settled by the newly founded nation of the USA. With the sole exception of the American purchase of Alaska all off my kin settled in America after all of these events.

 

The only line of my family that was on the North American continent prior to the Civil War were some Irish that had arrived maybe 20 years previously. All of fighting age were pressed into service of the Northern Army during the Civil War. What do they or their descendents owe to anyone?

 

Later, during WW1 we had a grandfather come back from France having been gassed by the Germans. He was never the same and channged the trajectory of our family's future immeasureably It forced my father to leave school at the age of 10 to become his fanily's breadwinner. To whom should we send the bill?

To colonise and occupy a country already inhabited, to marginalise and commit genocidal crimes upon that population, to take their ancestral lands and destroy their way of life, to celebrate and disguise these crimes in national holidays is as wrong as it gets.

 

I would say evil but that tends to cause offence. 

 

The other crimes against humanity you mention are equally wrong...or evil as I believe. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by Bluespunk
Punctuation and reiteration

[lannarebirth]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

To colonise a country already inhabited, to marginalise and commit genocidal crimes upon that population,  to celebrate and disguise these crimes in national holidays is as wrong as it gets.

 

I would say evil but that tends to cause offence. 

 

The other crimes against humanity you mention are equally wrong...or evil as I believe. 

 

OK, but what's that got to do with ME?

 

BTW, some of the most patriotic Americans I know are black folks and those from indigenous tribes. Go figure.