Thai Labour Law: Royal Decree blows work permits wide open

[thedemon]

10 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Don't be reading too much into this. Like everything in Thailand, Big Headline Announcement and no substance.

 

Expect WP laws as they previously stood to remain the same for 99% of foreign workers. Still need employers to have 4 thai workers for every foreign.

 

Yes pretty much. The driving force for Decree number 2 is the big reduction in financial penalties for employers. Decree number 1 had the penalties set too high which caused the corresponding bribe amounts to be out of proportion with the current economic conditions for most large scale employers. 

 

On the other hand although penalties have ostensibly also been reduced for alien employees without work permits, they can still be detained and imprisoned under Section 37 (1) of the Immigration Act so for them extortion will remain the name of the game.

 

All the other stuff about regulations concerning where, what and for whom appears to me to be largely window dressing since they will still be subject to bureaucratic interpretation the same way they always have been 

 

 

[Hockeybik]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

(2) a non-Thai who enters into Thailand to: operate a business; make an investment; or who has knowledge, ability, or skills that are considered beneficial to the development of the country;

 

How this is interpreted on the ground is key. 

 

I think this aspect is a much bigger issue than being able to use your work permit to operate in multiple locations. 

 

You are right. This item (2) could be so broadly interpreted that I think it is useless. I'm not sure I'd want to work long term and defend not having a work permit solely because I have "knowledge, ability, or skills that are considered beneficial to the development of the country." Maybe if you were here briefly for meetings and so on as in item (1) but anything longer term as in a digital nomad or lone consultant I don't think you would get far. Practically speaking no one here for meetings or short term "work" got permits anyway. Nothing has changed that I can see except for legalizing most activities that the laws against were never enforced in the past.

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

Don't be reading too much into this. Like everything in Thailand, Big Headline Announcement and no substance.

Expect WP laws as they previously stood to remain the same for 99% of foreign workers. Still need employers to have 4 thai workers for every foreign.

 

 

 

 

 

It would seem either your comments are relatednot to another post or you don't fully understand my post....you ppartly pparaphrase.my post and thenthe comment anouton starting a  company.

 

I think for the vast majority of working expat employed in industry and education it could be a geryBrexiteers significant stupid it actually is implemented..

Edited August 1, 2018 by kwilco

[LivinLOS]

2 hours ago, Hockeybik said:

You are right. This item (2) could be so broadly interpreted that I think it is useless. I'm not sure I'd want to work long term and defend not having a work permit solely because I have "knowledge, ability, or skills that are considered beneficial to the development of the country." Maybe if you were here briefly for meetings and so on as in item (1) but anything longer term as in a digital nomad or lone consultant I don't think you would get far. Practically speaking no one here for meetings or short term "work" got permits anyway. Nothing has changed that I can see except for legalizing most activities that the laws against were never enforced in the past.

 

A semi colon indicates either / or not as well as in legal papers. 

So that argument wouldnt be necessary, its any of those reasons not if all of those reasons combined applied. 

[LivinLOS]

19 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

It's been well established that unless you are working *for* a Thai company you don't need a WP.     Working for yourself online does not constitute working anymore than doing housework.

Except it has not.. Apart for a few vague 'not interested' statements from low or mid level immigration officials.

 

The employment office, labour dept, and all those who are actually involved with determining the extent and application of the law, have up to now been crystal clear that any online work, even for no Thai clients, or no Thai company, is work and by definition needs a work permit. 

Even vlogging, blogging, etc for profit or with ads enabled has been stated as needing one (see sources published many times by the phuket gazette from employment office and labour dept, or see the My Mate Nate youtube issues). 

Edited August 1, 2018 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, seancbk said:

This assumes of course that your business can be run remotely (online businesses can of course).   But you will still get people on this forum claiming that because you are situated in Thailand and working online for your company in HK, you will still requires a Thai WP.

By 'people' I assume you mean 'Officers from the labour dept or employment office of Thailand'. 

[Mattd]

33 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

The employment office, labour dept, and all those who are actually involved with determining the extent and application of the law, have up to now been crystal clear that any online work, even for no Thai clients, or no Thai company, is work and by definition needs a work permit. 

I tend to agree, as they have made the wording in the definition of work within the new decree such that it has seemingly recognised that the online worker world exists here and that you need a work permit.

It now considers those that use their knowledge to perform a profession, paid or unpaid as requiring a work permit unless, those duties are performed for a foreign entity that is registered under the foreign business act. 

Those that disagree and if they happen to get stopped next time coming in to the airport and asked how do you support yourself during the time in Thailand, then try saying by 'working online whilst I'm here' and see if the immigration officer accepts this.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Mattd

[kwilco]

21 hours ago, seancbk said:

 

It's been well established that unless you are working *for* a Thai company you don't need a WP.     Working for yourself online does not constitute working anymore than doing housework.

Quite the opposite.... sounds as if your employer or contractor is taking you for a ride.

[Maestro]

On 7/30/2018 at 9:02 AM, LivinLOS said:

One aspect that isnt being given the attention is possibly deserves 

 

https://www.thephuketnews.com/phuket-law-working-without-a-work-permit-now-possible-67692.php#i86dxMR20OLZ2kX3.97

 

The text of that would appear to now consent to a non Thai entering Thailand, without a work permit, and operating a (presume non Thai) business. 

That change would now appear to allow online work, for a existing business, without a work permit. 

 

As always, it is the original Thai text that counts. Different law firms use different translations and in this case I would go with that of Tilleke & Gibbins:

 

Quote

Foreigners who enter Thailand for the purpose of establishing a business or investment...

Source: https://www.tilleke.com/sites/default/files/IC - May 2018 - Relaxation of Work Permit Requirements in Thailand.pdf

 

The Thai text of the decree, as published in the Royal Gazette, is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayf_LmsVso5cczKhZPdvhNK6Qt_bcmDE

[Hockeybik]

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

A semi colon indicates either / or not as well as in legal papers. 

So that argument wouldnt be necessary, its any of those reasons not if all of those reasons combined applied. 

I understand that. I'm saying even taken alone that I would not trust making MY case based on any one of those conditions (or even proving all of them) without some very sound legal advice or some sort of definitive ruling from Department of Labor. I'm pretty sure that neither of those is forthcoming. I wish it were so but, for now, I'll stick with the problems of obtaining the WP.

[kwilco]

It seems that some people on this thread are, not aware the WPs are almost always job and location specific.

If this dictum changes that, it is hugely significant for the large body of westerners working here, engineers etc and even teachers who far outweigh economically the numbers of self-employed geriatric small business owners.

Apart from mobility it will improve their bargaining power for wages,  job security and benefits.

It is potentially a total game changer ... which is why I wonder if it is really going to happen...

[kwilco]

As I understand it now, this is a Royal decree and has to go through "parliament" to become law......theI inference being it will be changed beyond recognition or never get into law?

[brewsterbudgen]

It seems that some people on this thread are, not aware the WPs are almost always job and location specific.

If this dictum changes that, it is hugely significant for the large body of westerners working here, engineers etc and even teachers who far outweigh economically the numbers of self-employed geriatric small business owners.

Apart from mobility it will improve their bargaining power for wages,  job security and benefits.

It is potentially a total game changer ... which is why I wonder if it is really going to happen...

Agree. Hundreds of teachers do private tuition or things like IELTS examining, all of which have never been covered by their work permits. Hopefully this changes that.

 

Sent from my SM-A500F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

 

 

[Mattd]

45 minutes ago, kwilco said:

As I understand it now, this is a Royal decree and has to go through "parliament" to become law......theI inference being it will be changed beyond recognition or never get into law?

If the link to the Thai version printed in the Royal Gazette that @maestro added is the up to date for the last amended Royal decree, then it is law already.

 

I agree that if it means that a WP holder can do their job in any location, this will be a big improvement, I've always thought that the restrictions were too restrictive, especially in the modern age.

[blackcab]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

As I understand it now, this is a Royal decree and has to go through "parliament" to become law......theI inference being it will be changed beyond recognition or never get into law?

 

No. The original law allowed modification by Royal Decree (to enable speedy changes by a Government). It only needs to be printed in the Royal Gazette and it becomes part of the law of Thailand. 

[kwilco]

48 minutes ago, blackcab said:

 

No. The original law allowed modification by Royal Decree (to enable speedy changes by a Government). It only needs to be printed in the Royal Gazette and it becomes part of the law of Thailand. 

Apparently not, the case according to our company legal Thaiand person,. Of course they could be wrong applies to every stage of this dictum.

[Mattd]

4 minutes ago, kwilco said:

Apparently not, the case according to our company legal Thaiand person,. Of course they could be wrong applies to every stage of this dictum.

If it has been published in the Royal Gazette, then it is law.

[Time Traveller]

9 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

As always, it is the original Thai text that counts. Different law firms use different translations and in this case I would go with that of Tilleke & Gibbins:

 

Source: https://www.tilleke.com/sites/default/files/IC - May 2018 - Relaxation of Work Permit Requirements in Thailand.pdf

 

The Thai text of the decree, as published in the Royal Gazette, is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ayf_LmsVso5cczKhZPdvhNK6Qt_bcmDE

See that's the problem. The Tilleke & Gibbins  translation is not very good (Surprising since that law firm usually are good). Particularly to definition of work. Just to say that Work is Professional Work regardless or whether or not there is an employer etc.... is useless. In the Thai original text is defines Work as a Profession whether or not there is an employer etc....

The T&G translation definition, begs the question well what is Professional work?

 

Also, I don't think anyone here noticed, but there is now duty on the Foreigner to report within 15 days of being hired or termination, or changes to scope of the work permit, or be fined. 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by Time Traveller

[Mattd]

MFA press release with some pertinent info - http://www.mfa.go.th/main/en/news3/6886/87460-Thailand-Lifted-Restrictions-on-Foreign-Workers-to.html

[LivinLOS]

4 hours ago, kwilco said:

As I understand it now, this is a Royal decree and has to go through "parliament" to become law......theI inference being it will be changed beyond recognition or never get into law?

Other way round.. The haggling goes back and forth until it is published in the royal gazette, at which point (or a pre determined time soon after,  not sure on that) it becomes law.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Time Traveller said:

The T&G translation definition, begs the question well what is Professional work?

 

Paid work as opposed to volunteer work (where CNX isnt issueing volunteer work permits, apparently due to 'new rules' being passed) ??

 

Just guessing of course.. But they may be trying to smooth out the hobby / volunteer / jamming muso / etc low or no income generating issues which previously were caught up in all this. 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2018 by LivinLOS

[blackcab]

3 hours ago, kwilco said:

Apparently not, the case according to our company legal Thaiand person,. Of course they could be wrong applies to every stage of this dictum.

 

I will have to disagree. The Decree has been published in the Royal Gazette. While many laws have a set waiting period between publication and coming into force, a Royal Decree comes into force immediately.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

I will have to disagree. The Decree has been published in the Royal Gazette. While many laws have a set waiting period between publication and coming into force, a Royal Decree comes into force immediately.

I used to be in industrial sector and now am in tertiary education sector and the advice I'm getting from current and ex-colleagues is one of wait and see ...the consensus is that if it goes through as published its gonna take some time......especially as DoL has no training or even forms to deal withand this......and most don't even know about the decree.

[blackcab]

2 minutes ago, kwilco said:

I used to be in industrial sector and now am in tertiary education sector and the advice I'm getting from current and ex-colleagues is one of wait and see ...the consensus is that if it goes through as published its gonna take some time......especially as DoL has no training or even forms to deal withand this......and most don't even know about the decree.

 

I agree. I have no idea how the law will be interpreted. It will be interesting to see.

[kwilco]

7 hours ago, blackcab said:

 

I will have to disagree. The Decree has been published in the Royal Gazette. While many laws have a set waiting period between publication and coming into force, a Royal Decree comes into force immediately.

I used to be in industrial sector and now am in tertiary education sector and the advice I'm getting from current and ex-colleagues is one of wait and see ...the consensus is that if it goes through as published its gonna take some time......especially as DoL has no training or even forms to deal withand this......and most don't even know about the decree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ItI would also be interesting to know how current WPs will be dealt with.....willI they just automatically change or will we have to get new or replacement ones,.....How easy will that be?

[Time Traveller]

12 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Paid work as opposed to volunteer work (where CNX isnt issueing volunteer work permits, apparently due to 'new rules' being passed) ??

 

Just guessing of course.. But they may be trying to smooth out the hobby / volunteer / jamming muso / etc low or no income generating issues which previously were caught up in all this. 

 

 

Yes just guessing, but thats where we're at with the mistranslation

My guess, is "a Profession" means something you do continually. Whereas "Professional work" means something that may either only be a one time event or a regular occupation. 

Clearly this is different. Just like being a professional painter, is different from a one time event helping a friend paint a house without payment.

The problem is the definition is purposely ambiguous, and the english Translations often do not convey the same meaning as the Thai. It's anyone's guess and can only wait for further guidance from the labor department for a clear answer. 

 

[DrTuner]

On 8/2/2018 at 9:03 AM, blackcab said:

The original law allowed modification by Royal Decree (to enable speedy changes by a Government). It only needs to be printed in the Royal Gazette and it becomes part of the law of Thailand. 

Which in practice means the basis of being able to work in Thailand might change at short notice. Nothing new, though. Hoopy hoop.

[mike324]

On 7/30/2018 at 10:14 PM, mommysboy said:

Yeah, sure to be bad for sweat shops.

haha good try, my company provides goods for many large corporations. We get random unannounced audits yearly. We wouldn't need to import workers if Thais can actually or even willing to work.