A crime or a right? Some Danish Muslims defy face veil ban

[stevenl]

27 minutes ago, Stargrazer9889 said:

Please stevenl,  put on a balaclava go into a bank and ask them if they are private like your house or if they are considered a public place? I would like you to tell me the answer after you do that. Also tell me what the reaction is about the balaclava.

Thanks!

It's ok if you don't understand.

 

The ban is about public places, so your reference to a bank is not applicable. In banks they will have another dresscode, not allowing any face covering like eg motorbike helmets. The same is applicable to eg airports, where also faces have to be shown.

Your claim that a bank is a public place is nonsense.

 

Just a guess, but are the people who are happy with this ban the same people who are concerned about privacy and authorities being able to keep track of our movements all the time?

[dragula]

Could just use full face helmets, now every thing fix.

[Credo]

I am pretty left-leaning, but I do not believe that face coverings should be permitted unless there is a reason for such.   

 

My feeling long preceded anything to do with Islam.   

 

I find it difficult to 'read' people unless I can make eye contact.   That eye and facial contact allows us to interact with people in an appropriate manner.   Every society has rules, and being able to see another person should be one of them.  

 

[Dellboy218]

14 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Not for those concerned.

 

They are having a right to choose how to dress taken away by the state. 

 

They have every right to protest such an egregious action. 

 

“Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it.”

Leo Tolstoy, A Confession

And what about the right of the majority of the population to see who they are with.  Their right that those around them are identifiable.  Everyone has security cameras to help identify those that commit crimes.  This clothing along with all face coverings should be banned.  I believe hoods on hoodies cannot be left up in UK  shopping malls now for this very reason but you are telling me that these people have the right to go into the same place and cover their identity?  Well done Denmark I hope others follow. 

[Bluespunk]

4 minutes ago, Dellboy218 said:

And what about the right of the majority of the population to see who they are with.  Their right that those around them are identifiable.  Everyone has security cameras to help identify those that commit crimes.  This clothing along with all face coverings should be banned.  I believe hoods on hoodies cannot be left up in UK  shopping malls now for this very reason but you are telling me that these people have the right to go into the same place and cover their identity?  Well done Denmark I hope others follow. 

Please quote statistics on crimes committed by women wearing veils in Denmark to back up your crime concern claim. 

 

I believe people have the right to wear a veil if they choose to do so.  

[Dellboy218]

10 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

Please quote statistics on crimes committed by women wearing veils in Denmark to back up your crime concern claim. 

 

I believe people have the right to wear a veil if they choose to do so.  

Criminals have used this clothing to commit crimes in London and to make good their escape. The tiny minority should not and cannot be allowed to prevail over the majority. Please provide your evidence to the contrary. It also means the Police waste a lot of time trying to identify people so they can be excluded.  There is no case whatsoever for wearing. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/is-the-burqa-really-a-terror-threat

[Bluespunk]

14 minutes ago, Dellboy218 said:

Criminals have used this clothing to commit crimes in London and to make good their escape. The tiny minority should not and cannot be allowed to prevail over the majority. Please provide your evidence to the contrary. It also means the Police waste a lot of time trying to identify people so they can be excluded.  There is no case whatsoever for wearing. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/is-the-burqa-really-a-terror-threat

This story is about a veil ban on Denmark.

 

Now please back up your veil crime claims related to the Denmark ban. 

 

Equally, if you wish, provide statistics for veil related crime in the U.K.  

 

i do not need to prove the contrary as you are the one making these claims. 

[giddyup]

3 hours ago, simple1 said:

And the fact is, if the allegation is correct, Border Control did not avail themselves of the tools available to them by way of enacted legislation

The subject is the burka, and it's possible misuse, not whether border control was doing it's job, and I'm not sure if that legislation was in place in 2006, and the fact remains that it was the burka that allowed this lowlife to escape.

[Dellboy218]

11 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

This story is about a veil ban on Denmark.

 

Now please back up your veil crime claims related to the Denmark ban. 

 

Equally, if you wish, provide statistics for veil related crime in the U.K.  

 

i do not need to prove the contrary as you are the one making these claims. 

That article did relate to crime in London.  It is a Europe wide problem that is slowly being dealt with.  Not just Denmark. 

[simple1]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

The subject is the burka, and it's possible misuse, not border control.

Incorrect, not a stand alone item, but in conjunction with legislation underpinning security concerns. In the case you highlighted appropriate procedures were not followed, therefore in that particular instance, if the allegations are correct, errors were made by security personnel. 

 

 

[Bluespunk]

6 minutes ago, Dellboy218 said:

That article did relate to crime in London.  It is a Europe wide problem that is slowly being dealt with.  Not just Denmark. 

The protest was about a veil ban in Denmark held by Danish citizens. 

 

Now, provide statistics to back up your veil crime claims in Denmark (and London if you wish) with statistics proving your claim. 

[giddyup]

Just now, simple1 said:

Incorrect, not a stand alone item, but in conjunction with legislation underpinning security concerns. In the case you highlighted appropriate procedures were not followed, therefore in that particular instance, if the allegations are correct, errors were made by security personnel. 

 

 

The offense would not have been possible without the burka, put any spin on it you like, the fact remains. I guess you blame the bartender for allowing the drunk driver to get behind the wheel? Everyone is at fault except the actual perpetrator.

[My Thai Life]

Here's a qoute from the Guardian, the UK's leading liberal newspaper

 

"The justice ministry explained that the ban would focus on women forced by their families to wear veils"

 

I am a lifelong liberal. Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

[simple1]

24 minutes ago, giddyup said:

 

I guess you blame the bartender for allowing the drunk driver to get behind the wheel?

 

yep, that's the law

[car720]

20 hours ago, giddyup said:

Your posts are a little confusing, I got the impression you were supporting the muslims right to wear the veil in Denmark.

Never.

[car720]

19 hours ago, stevenl said:

Quite a few of fully covered people in southern Thailand. Phuket, Surat Thani and further south.

No they're not, they want to be able to believe in their own way.

As someone previously said, when you are a guest in someone's house you show your host the courtesy of obeying his house rules.  To believe that these people do not want to change the local people is to have no understanding of the oneness of islam.

[car720]

19 hours ago, mikebike said:

You don't spend much time in the deep south do ya?

not since I first snuck across the border at Betong, a long long time ago. 

[stevenl]

19 minutes ago, car720 said:

As someone previously said, when you are a guest in someone's house you show your host the courtesy of obeying his house rules.  To believe that these people do not want to change the local people is to have no understanding of the oneness of islam.

So you're proving an earlier claim by repeating that claim.

 

Lol.

[Dellboy218]

I have already given you a link to an article which states crimes have been committed by people wearing the this clothing and you have chosen to ignore it. Fair enough,.  Fairest way have a referendum.  The rights of the few do not outweigh the rights of the many. 

[HAKAPALITA]

Steve, women who take off their veil in the company of men who are not family members are committing a crime in many of their home countries. Calling it free choice and unforced is naive.
 
I am a lifelong liberal. Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

So at least it has one thing right.. Its bloody Liberals who let em wander about.!?[emoji481]


Sent from my iPhone using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[My Thai Life]

In the Guardian's article there was a photo showing a young ethnic Danish woman partying in solidarity with her muslim sisters. She was wearing a pink balaklava and a bra. What do you think the response would be If she tried that in her muslim sisters' Danish ghetto, or in any muslim country?

 

As a lifelong liberal I understand why many liberals support the wearing of the veil. As someone who has extensive experience of working with muslims and having read very widely about the history of Islam, I believe these liberals are misguided.

 

I am a lifelong liberal, it doesn't make me happy to say Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

[stevenl]

15 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

In the Guardian's article there was a photo showing a young ethnic Danish woman partying in solidarity with her muslim sisters. She was wearing a pink balaklava and a bra. What do you think the response would be If she tried that in her muslim sisters' Danish ghetto, or in any muslim country?

 

As a lifelong liberal I understand why many liberals support the wearing of the veil. As someone who has extensive experience of working with muslims and having read very widely about the history of Islam, I believe these liberals are misguided.

 

I am a lifelong liberal, it doesn't make me happy to say Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

"What do you think the response would be If she tried that in her muslim sisters' Danish ghetto, or in any muslim country?"

Does it matter?

 

What Danish ghetto are you talking about BTW?

[Opl]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

As someone previously said, when you are a guest in someone's house you show your host the courtesy of obeying his house rules.  To believe that these people do not want to change the local people is to have no understanding of the oneness of islam.

Agree.

Defying the law, wearing such an outfit in non muslim countries like Denmark, France… tells how they just don't recognise the culture or history of the countries they chose to live in - and deserve the reaction in return for Islam is a religion and a political ideology.

The advantage of the ban is to make it clear.

 It is not far-right ideology to criticize and oppose ideological indoctrination.

Denmark scrapped blasphemy law, any issue?

 

[bristolboy]

18 minutes ago, My Thai Life said:

In the Guardian's article there was a photo showing a young ethnic Danish woman partying in solidarity with her muslim sisters. She was wearing a pink balaklava and a bra. What do you think the response would be If she tried that in her muslim sisters' Danish ghetto, or in any muslim country?

 

As a lifelong liberal I understand why many liberals support the wearing of the veil. As someone who has extensive experience of working with muslims and having read very widely about the history of Islam, I believe these liberals are misguided.

 

I am a lifelong liberal, it doesn't make me happy to say Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

If by reading widely you mean from scholars and not propagandists, you would know that Islam is not inherently intolerant. But something tells me that's not where you get your information from.

[bristolboy]

58 minutes ago, car720 said:

As someone previously said, when you are a guest in someone's house you show your host the courtesy of obeying his house rules.  To believe that these people do not want to change the local people is to have no understanding of the oneness of islam.

If you are a citizen of a country then you are not a guest. And god knows what you mean by "change the local people."

[Snow Leopard]

1 hour ago, car720 said:

As someone previously said, when you are a guest in someone's house you show your host the courtesy of obeying his house rules.  To believe that these people do not want to change the local people is to have no understanding of the oneness of islam.

The guess quote doesn't apply to muslims!!! Lets face the fact most of the muslims in Europe whether born there or not are mainly economic settlers of some degree. They came from a sh*t hole for a better life and then want to turn the country of their choice into the sh*t hole they came from. 

[My Thai Life]

@ Bristolboy my reading is from books by acknowledged scholars, all muslim, not propagandists.

 

I wonder if you have ever worked in muslim countries, or if you have any knowledge of Islam at all. I assume you are guided by what you consider to be liberal tolerance, rather than any personal experience or study. 

 

I am a lifelong liberal. Islam is the enemy of liberalism.

 

[bristolboy]

1 minute ago, Snow Leopard said:

The guess quote doesn't apply to muslims!!! Lets face the fact most of the muslims in Europe whether born there or not are mainly economic settlers of some degree. They came from a sh*t hole for a better life and then want to turn the country of their choice into the sh*t hole they came from. 

"Lets face the fact most of the muslims in Europe whether born there or not are mainly economic settlers of some degree."

How exactly are people born there "settlers of some degree." ?

 

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, simple1 said:

yep, that's the law

Not here it's not, maybe in a couple of western countries. What about if the drunk driver did his drinking at home or at a party, why not blame the alcohol producers for enabling someone to get drunk in the first place. I suppose you agree with the affluenza defense as well. Always trying to pass the buck.

[Bluespunk]

5 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

The guess quote doesn't apply to muslims!!! Lets face the fact most of the muslims in Europe whether born there or not are mainly economic settlers of some degree. They came from a sh*t hole for a better life and then want to turn the country of their choice into the sh*t hole they came from. 

Some dictionary definitions:

 

Fact: noun

a thing that is indisputably the case.

 

Opinion: noun

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

 

Propaganda: noun 

derogatory information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.: